question about UP licensing

[Anonymous]

We've all heard about the UP wanting to protect its trademarks by charging a licensing fee for manufacturers to decorate models in its colors...

Here's another questoin:

In MR this month (and many months) there are pictures of models decorated in UP colors. Since they are trademarked, does MR have to pay a fee to display them?

I was thinking yes, then I was thinking - newspapers display pictures of major league baseball players, without permission, I'm assuming. And computer game manufacturers have to pay a licensing fee and get permission to use MLB team logos, etc.

So... how does the legality of this work? In both cases someone is making money selling something with UP colors?

The reason I'm asking is that I'm pretty sure that there are Kalmbach books with UP colors, and IIRC, you can contact Kalmbach and get back issues or copies of older articles, featuring same....

Anybody know?

Rob

[dehusman]

No, the magazine does not pay a royalty. The UP liscenses its logo's use to the manufacturers of the items with the logo.

Dave H.

[Big_Boy_4005]

It would be a pretty vicious circle if they did.

[gvdobler]

If you sell a product with say Disney characters or Elvis' face, then you must pay the people that own the rights.

When you hear music playing in a bar or wherever, the owner is paying a subscription to BMI (Broadcast music Inc) and the pay the royalty money to the artists. You will note that Elvis is dead (fallen flag) but you still have to pay his estate. (he makes more now than when he was alive, by the way.)

I guess I don't see what UP did that was so bad.

Jon - Las Vegas

[howmus]

Newspapers and Magazines fall under "fair use" rules for copyright and therefore do not have to obtain a license to use Logos under most circumstances. There are many exemptions to copyrighted use that fall into "fair use". For instance as a teacher I could make a recording of a student playing a copyrighted song for use in Face to Face Teaching. If I then decided to sell a few hundred copies of that recording to the public, then I have to get a license for it. The same is true if I use a photo done by someone other than myself on a CD jacket. I at least have to get (and do get) written permission from the photographer to use the photo. I have a photo done by our local newspaper of the MLK service last January that will be used for MLK Committee advertising. The Paper has given written permission to use it with the understanding that we cannot use it in any "for sale" item (a calendar for instance).

Hope this helps to explain the process. [:)]

[Anonymous]

GVDOBLER, I think that you need to reevaluate your position. Railroads and equipment manufacturers have for decades allowed model train manufacturers to make likenesses of their logos and products Creative businesses like music and movie companies PRODUCE the music and images as their basic product and are entitled to protection of that product. If Union Pacific gets it's way it will KILL model railroading and with it, the one group of prople who think railroading has any future. Imagine if EMD had their paws out along with the railroad whose name is painted on an engine. This would add $ 10 to $15 to the price of every model locomotive and would TOTALLY DESTROY the toy train business. JUST ONE MORE EXAMPLE OF THE MOST P.R. IGNORANT BUSINESS ON EARTH MACHINE GUNNING I'TS FOOT

>

QUOTE: Originally posted by gvdobler

If you sell a product with say Disney characters or Elvis' face, then you must pay the people that own the rights.

When you hear music playing in a bar or wherever, the owner is paying a subscription to BMI (Broadcast music Inc) and the pay the royalty money to the artists. You will note that Elvis is dead (fallen flag) but you still have to pay his estate. (he makes more now than when he was alive, by the way.)

I guess I don't see what UP did that was so bad.

Jon - Las Vegas

[jsoderq]

Before you start another war, almost any other hobby has had licensing for many years - Nascar, all pro sports, auto models, truck models, almost everything you can think of so UP is not going to kill model railroading. Diecast is stronger than it has ever been and it is almost 100% licensed.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jsoderq

Before you start another war, almost any other hobby has had licensing for many years - Nascar, all pro sports, auto models, truck models, almost everything you can think of so UP is not going to kill model railroading. Diecast is stronger than it has ever been and it is almost 100% licensed.

YOU SITLL DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT IS AT STAKE. Model railroading IS UNIQUE. Our trains are barely affordable for many people now . I think your Pro licensing stance is ideologically based. NASCAR is in the ENTERTAINMENT BUSINESS. Images ARE their MAIN PRODUCT Railroads are in the TRANSPORTATION business and the WIDESPREAD perception is that Railroads are DANGEROUS BAD NEIGHBORS that are DISAPPEARRING anyway. This perception is being strongly reinforced by the railroads themselves with their Operation Lifesaver and other programs wh8ich are designed to highlight how dangerous railroads are to the surrounding community. While safety messages are important, the fact of the matter is that the railroads have aboput the WORST P.R. there is. And I will PUBICLY DEBATE your boss John Bromley on that point. Go ahead, kill the hobby and take out the only group of people who believe in railroading
Railroading IS NOT NASCAR OR THE Beatles AND IT NEEDS ALL THE FRIENDS IT CAN GET.

[BRAKIE]

LOL! The hobby will not be killed by licensing fees but but the modelers and manufacturers.The modelers because they want 110% fully detailed from the box and the manufacturers by given into these modelers that will force the price of our cars and locomotives beyond what the normal working man with a family can afford even at deep discount.Look how much the price of the hobby has raised over the last 5 years before the UP licensing fee.Why? modelers want perfection from the box which caused the price to raised due to the added detail work and not to mention the RTR market which means you PAY the manufacturers to assemble that engine or car for you.

[Anonymous]

Hey, BRAKIE, by your handle it sounds like you are a railroad (probably UP) employee who has a few shares of (probably UP) stock. Well. the few cents that you stand to gain from shaking down the model railroad industry will be overshadowed by just another blast of bad press that will result from this EXTORTION. Especially despicable is the way they went after Athearn who is the VERY last major producer of model trains in America, Then these guys have the audacity to put the American flag on their locomotives. Oh, and by the way if you really are a brakeman, you know how bad labor relations are in the railroad industry and UP is the absolute WORST. Now I'm getting nostalgic for the ICC.

[Anonymous]

Wow... I didn't mean to start a flame war here. I had just been thinking about how the trademark business is going to affect the things I read.

IMO, if more railroads start charging fees, we are going to see more undecoracted locos, and people will either buy a decal set, have custom decals made, or people will make "similarly" colored and lettered locos and rolling stock.

You've probably seen video games of baseball or football that haven't been licensed by MLB or the NFL - they have fictional team names, but often have very recognizeable colors. :)

For the amount of money UP has, it seems that the licensing fee that MR companies would be able to pay would be small potatos.

We'll see how it goes.

Rob

[Anonymous]

What you'll see is companies like EMD charging for their designs. This +WILL+ KILL the model railroafd industry.

[Virginian]

Thye same thing is happening in the model plane business, and most of those unique designs were payed for with taxpayer dollars. I think UP having the American flag on their equipment is very appropriate. The *** lawyers are ruining the whole country in my opinion.

[gvdobler]

johnblair

I just stated my opinion, I have not changed my position.

You ever notice when people are wrong they start yelling.
(that's the caps lock button for the ones that don't know)

Yikes

Jon - Las Vegas

[IRONROOSTER]

This is done under trademark law, not copyright law. Copyrights expire, trademarks do not. Once the copyright expires anyone can use it for free. The purpose of trademark law is to prevent confusion by not allowing a second company to copy the slogans, symbols etc. of the first. Thus you can't use UP's trademarks to trick people into doing business with you thinking it is Union Pacific. Failure to protect trademarks can result in their loss - for example asprin.

I'm not a lawyer so I can't give you all the legal arguments about why UP needs to prevent model companies from using their symbols much less why trademarks for fallen flags would still be active. My own personal opinion is that the trademark law should not apply here.

Even if the hobby loses in court, I think the hobby will survive. Though we may see some interesting work arounds if the licensing costs get too onerous.

Enjoy
Paul

[Anonymous]

gvdobler You are wrong and UP is wrong They may be able to enforce thjis in court but they'll lose the only friends they have in the general public. Actually I'm beginning to think that they went too far with deregulation of the railroads and the arrogance of UP and the other Class 1's tends to bear this out. The railroad industry has the worst labor relations in US industry and every day bad safety news is splashed across the headlines Us hobbyists are the ONLY people who believe in the industry but it tis getting harder to do so. Fine, pick our pockets, it'll cost you in the long run.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Ok guys, I think we have covered the licensing thing pretty well. It sounds like Kadee is going to be brave, and challenge big bad UP. All it takes is one clever lawyer to find a loophole in the trademark law, and many of us have long felt that the manufacturers may be able to make a case based on the amount of time that passed before UP took action. There is also the issue of the fallen flags.

So, all you legal eagles, here's a question. Say I take a photo of a UP locomotive, and decide to create and market a calender or a book. I can copyright the material, but do I owe them for the trademark?

[howmus]

QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER

This is done under trademark law, not copyright law. Copyrights expire, trademarks do not. Once the copyright expires anyone can use it for free. The purpose of trademark law is to prevent confusion by not allowing a second company to copy the slogans, symbols etc. of the first. Thus you can't use UP's trademarks to trick people into doing business with you thinking it is Union Pacific. Failure to protect trademarks can result in their loss - for example asprin.

You are correct in pointing out the difference between Trademark and Copyright. They are different entities although very similar in certain aspects. One of those is the issue of Fair Use. I am not a lawyer either but as a musician and former music teacher, I have become well versed in copyright law. I know much less about Trademark Law and do not know where the line is drawn for use. The fact that RR Logos of so many RRs has been used without permission for so many years, may be a factor in how the suit will be decided....?? Thank you for your post. [:)]

[dehusman]

Its such a hoot to read people's posts where they disparage, demean, insult and threaten the UP for page upon page, then state that they are the UP's best friend or biggest supporter.

Dave H.

[Anonymous]

We ARE the rauil industry's biggest supporters. UP may be legally able to do this but it'll hurt them in terms of good will if they do. Us hobbyists are the only people who have any good will toward the rail industry. Of course ti'd help if they got another voiceover and lose the (UGH) bluegrass music in their commercials.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE:

- Edited to remove reply.

Looking back at the thread, it's clear that simply disagreeing results in rudeness.

Wayne

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by johnblair

QUOTE: Originally posted by jsoderq

Before you start another war, almost any other hobby has had licensing for many years - Nascar, all pro sports, auto models, truck models, almost everything you can think of so UP is not going to kill model railroading. Diecast is stronger than it has ever been and it is almost 100% licensed.

YOU SITLL DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT IS AT STAKE. Model railroading IS UNIQUE. Our trains are barely affordable for many people now . I think your Pro licensing stance is ideologically based. NASCAR is in the ENTERTAINMENT BUSINESS. Images ARE their MAIN PRODUCT Railroads are in the TRANSPORTATION business and the WIDESPREAD perception is that Railroads are DANGEROUS BAD NEIGHBORS that are DISAPPEARRING anyway. This perception is being strongly reinforced by the railroads themselves with their Operation Lifesaver and other programs wh8ich are designed to highlight how dangerous railroads are to the surrounding community. While safety messages are important, the fact of the matter is that the railroads have aboput the WORST P.R. there is. And I will PUBICLY DEBATE your boss John Bromley on that point. Go ahead, kill the hobby and take out the only group of people who believe in railroading
Railroading IS NOT NASCAR OR THE Beatles AND IT NEEDS ALL THE FRIENDS IT CAN GET.

QUOTE: Originally posted by johnblair

Hey, BRAKIE, by your handle it sounds like you are a railroad (probably UP) employee who has a few shares of (probably UP) stock. Well. the few cents that you stand to gain from shaking down the model railroad industry will be overshadowed by just another blast of bad press that will result from this EXTORTION. Especially despicable is the way they went after Athearn who is the VERY last major producer of model trains in America, Then these guys have the audacity to put the American flag on their locomotives. Oh, and by the way if you really are a brakeman, you know how bad labor relations are in the railroad industry and UP is the absolute WORST. Now I'm getting nostalgic for the ICC.

I notice that you resort to ad hominem attacks on people who disagree with you. Can you make your case without them? By the way, if model railroaders are the only group of people who think railroads have a future, then say goodbye to railroads. How many shippers are railfans or model railroaders?

[Anonymous]

it is true that few shippers are railfans or model railroaders but the railroad industry and Union Pacific in particular need to court public opinion in a democracy. Bad press and miserable labor relations are plaguing the industry and now they are bent on destroying a group of hobbyists who are the only group among the general public who has any good feelings toward them. I am not attacking those who support Union Pacific, I am merely stating the obvious fact that Union Pacific is making a grave error here and risks alienating a lot of pro-rail VOTERS, in fact the ONLY consistent group of pro rail voters. Public opinion does matter. America is still a free country. Besides, Union Pacific has been losing customers to BNSF and trucks because it can't manage its system.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericsp
I notice that you resort to ad hominem attacks on people who disagree with you. Can you make your case without them? By the way, if model railroaders are the only group of people who think railroads have a future, then say goodbye to railroads. How many shippers are railfans or model railroaders?

Good point, ericsp. It's the revenue producing shippers and stockholders that are the railroad industry's "best friends."

As a model railroader, I've never had much clout at any railroad corporation's annual stockholder meeting. As a model railroader, I don't believe my influence with the Federal Government is any greater. The idea that "I'm a Model Railroader and I vote" carries any weight is a cute over-estimation of our influence.

Wayne

[Anonymous]

It was mentioned that NASCAR and pro sports are entertainment and railroading is transportation. This is true. If you look at Ford, General Motors, Dainler-Chrysler, Harley Davidson, etc.. all those modl products are licensed. I notice the model Taurus vehicles I bought made by Atlas say it is a Ford licensed product. I guess Ford has just killed off the model car hobby with its licensing fees.

My wife collects Coca Cola stuff. All of it is licensed by Coca Cola. They are not in the entertainment business. They are in the beverage business. I got a Lionel monopoly game as a gift a year or two ago. Clearly stamped on teh box is "official licensed product". They are trademarking the use of their models which are replicas of actual products made by American Locomotive Company, EMD, et. al. If Lionel can license their products, why not UP or anyone else?

[davekelly]

Licensing is such an interesting topic. Of course I think what is important is what is the purpose of the licensing. I remember long ago, Chessie started some sort of licensing agreement. What they were looking for was to have manufacturers let them review the product before production to see if it was of high quality or someething like that. I think this is totally appropriate. I'm not sure of the UP thing, though. It doesn't seem that the amont of money raised (and it seems to be just a money quesiton not like Chessie) will make a dent in UP's bottom line. I still think there is a compromise here that will work to benefit both. Let's say that UP works with manufacturers to help ensure accurate colors and logos. In exchange the manufacturer agrees to put a little piece of paper in the box which tells the history of UP and what innovations that UP is introducing in order to increase safety, decrease costs to customers etc. The modeler gets a more accurate model and UP (or EMD, Ford etc) gets some free advertising and good will. Seems like a win win situation. Licensing does not have to include a monetary exchange.

[BRAKIE]

QUOTE: Originally posted by johnblair

Hey, BRAKIE, by your handle it sounds like you are a railroad (probably UP) employee who has a few shares of (probably UP) stock. Well. the few cents that you stand to gain from shaking down the model railroad industry will be overshadowed by just another blast of bad press that will result from this EXTORTION. Especially despicable is the way they went after Athearn who is the VERY last major producer of model trains in America, Then these guys have the audacity to put the American flag on their locomotives. Oh, and by the way if you really are a brakeman, you know how bad labor relations are in the railroad industry and UP is the absolute WORST. Now I'm getting nostalgic for the ICC.

John,You're way off base.I was a brakeman for the PRR/PC and later the C&O under the Chessie and CSX banner..
I do think you need to relax and think about railroading as a whole..You say UP is the worst in employee moral.Wrong! How about www.csxsucks.com ? I can recall when everybody hated the NS because it ended their steam program.There are those that are misinformed that hate the Chessie because of the WM.Well you see C&O/B&O/WM was not merged during the Chessie era..
Bad press? Never mind that.Go to the shippers and ask them what they think of RAIL SERVICE in general.
BTW I do not own any UP stock or any other railroad stock..You think I want to LOSE money? If you do then you are very foolish.
No,your comments is that of a uninformed modeler.You actually think a multi billion dollar corporation is going to get rich from trade mark fees when they spend millions of dollars every day??
You do know CSX has a licensing fee?

Like it or hate it its the current trend of Corporate America regardless if its a railroad or not to charge to use their name or logo.Get with the times.The free ride is over.

[dehusman]

I don't see how everybody thinks the UP is out to "destroy" model railroading because it has registered trademarks. The UP licenses haven't put anybody out of business, they haven't stopped any new UP models. The UP is just a business doing what a business does, protecting its name and image. Every auto manufacturer does it, every beverage company, every industrial machinery company, UPS, every airline does it. The UP's image has been used in a derogatory manner in the past and they have sued (and won) to protect it.
The hobby industry is doing more "harm" to itself than the UP will ever do (the Lionel lawsuit and bankruptcy, the acquisition of Athearn and MDC, the elimination of entry level kits, the emphasis on R-T-R, the spiraling cost of models, etc, etc, etc.) That's where the danger is.

Dave H.

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Muddy Creek

QUOTE: Originally posted by ericsp
I notice that you resort to ad hominem attacks on people who disagree with you. Can you make your case without them? By the way, if model railroaders are the only group of people who think railroads have a future, then say goodbye to railroads. How many shippers are railfans or model railroaders?

Good point, ericsp. It's the revenue producing shippers and stockholders that are the railroad industry's "best friends."

As a model railroader, I've never had much clout at any railroad corporation's annual stockholder meeting. As a model railroader, I don't believe my influence with the Federal Government is any greater. The idea that "I'm a Model Railroader and I vote" carries any weight is a cute over-estimation of our influence.

Wayne

Judging from his post following my last one, it looks like he is hoping that model railroaders and railfans will be able to persuade the public in general to view railroads more favorable and thus cause more favorable laws for railroad to pass and unfavorable ones to fail. However, neither railfans nor model railroaders have been able to do this and I doubt we could.

[Anonymous]

You people are coordinating your attacks on me and then comparing notes on strategy. Want to know what I really think? NO- didn't think so but your lack of knowledge of political science is breathtaking. Railfans/model railroaders are the ONLY people outside the railroad industry who support the railroads in public debate. It is interesting to note how many issues the railroads are getting pounded on these days If UP wins this, they'll bring down another 1/100 cent per share to the bottom line. If they lose, they can regain the respect of the ONLY group of voters who don't mind the sound of a locomotive horn and if you don't think that is important, then maybe you should go to your local community college and take a Poli-Sci 101 course. and I'm sure that this hobby and its participants have made a BIG difference in seeing that railroad friendly public policy has been put into force. UP's arrogance, is endangering that. Of course, it is no coincidence that railroad tycoon Cornelius Vanderbilt said "The public be ***ed" Maybe UP doesn't think it needs friends but if their greed wins out in court, they will see what it is like to go to public hearings where no one EVER speaks up for them. They might as well scrap their steam fleet at that point and save some money. Joe Sixpack thinks everything can go by truck. WE know better but will we care if UP stabs us in the back? As for the retired agreement employee who thinks UP is doing the right thing, I cannot comprehend his position in light of the fact that corporate management, not model railroaders made his life miserable for FORTY YEARS. Now he is sticking up for them in this forum. Maybe if railroads scheduled their trains like the rest of the transportation industry does maybe they could staff their trains with some anticipation of work schedules for their employees. Hunter Harrison of CN is working along those lines and his railroad is piling up awards for quality service, low cost and employee morale.