Hello, What's everyones take on "fantasy" paint scemes. I was looking at a Broadway Limited P5a BoxCab with Milwaukee Road paint (not a real milwakee road loco). But i'm thinking it might be close enough. Also, would like to have a Big Boy one day, but not necessarily in UP. Just wondering what others think.
Hello —
Check this thread first then get back to us.
https://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/p/293525/3424219.aspx#3424219
Regards, Ed
You'll find those who like 'em and those who don't care for 'em. I'm somewhat of a purist so I'm in the latter camp. I do like the look of the P5 boxcab though.
If a particular fantasy paint scheme on a prototype locomotive appeals to you and that's what you would enjoy running on your layout - go for it! Who cares what others think...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Personally find fantasy schemes really undesirable...especially when a manfacturer make them "limited edition" or a trainworld (or other store) "exclusive", just to artificially inflate their rarity and value.
I will say that certain schemes are better than others. Fantasy schemes from the same railroad (like an ATSF warbonnet steam loco for ex) or schemes from future mergers (like a PRR loco decorated for Penn Central) in my opinion are better than the completely bizzare ones.
Charles
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Modeling the PRR & NYC in HO
Youtube Channel: www.youtube.com/@trainman440
Instagram (where I share projects!): https://www.instagram.com/trainman440
I model the Pennsylvania to the limits of my ability and as accurately as possible. When there are locomotives the PRR never had a paint them for my Allegheny railroad that has trackage rights on the PRR. This keeps the purists at bay.
I know some people don't like engines that are not prototypical but I think some of the fantasy schemes look great on other roads engines or different schemes then the ones in real life had.
Screen shots taken from athearn preorder sheet and train world.
Posted from ipad.
In general, I do not like them, but there are schemes I can tolerate. Paying $900 MSRP for an all-black BLI Santa Fe "Blue Goose" or $550 for a Reading T1 4-8-4 in red labeled "Merry Christmas" would be unthinkable for me. On the other hand, I can tolerate a Bachman doodlebug in warbonnet paint (The Santa Fe had only two doodlebugs in warbonnet paint, M-160 and M-190; in contrast to the Bachmann doodlebug, neither one had a passenger compartment.). One idea I found actually intriguing was to create more "bonnets". The Santa Fe had F units with the original warbonnet in red, and later they derived bluebonnets and yellowbonnets (although the yellowbonnet F units had a slightly different overall scheme). What about keeping the same overall scheme and just changing the main color? You could make greenbonnets, purplebonnets, pinkbonnets, blackbonnets, whitebonnets,...
aiireland Hello, What's everyones take on "fantasy" paint scemes. I was looking at a Broadway Limited P5a BoxCab with Milwaukee Road paint (not a real milwakee road loco). But i'm thinking it might be close enough. Also, would like to have a Big Boy one day, but not necessarily in UP. Just wondering what others think.
Wow, so were do we draw this fuzzy line? How accurate or inaccruate does a model need to be to pass the test?
Sure, a lot of them are clearly obvious to the informed, and the truly playful ones are generally clearly identified by the manufacturers as such.
If they can make money selling them what business is it of those who are not buying?
I've been at this a while just like many of others on here. But we have newer/younger people on here as well who don't know about the early days, generic models with every popular roadname painted on the side.
Whatever you want to call it, I'm a freelance/protolance modeler with my own fictional roadname, and I model three other actual prototype roads.
I won't lie, I model those other roads with a moderately high level of accuracy - BUT - compromises will be made - AND - history will be fudged a little here and there. After all those real roads have to blend into my fictional version of 1954.....
Again I will ask, where is the magical line?
Broadway Lmited is putting all sorts of fantasy paint schemes on locos, OK.
But they make locos that they would like you to take seriously that are not correct, or not as correct as they easily could have been.
They sell their "generic" USRA Heavy Pacific lettered as B&O P7 locomotives - and while the P7 was based largely on the USRA Heavy - BLI could not even change a few simple details that would have made it much closer - a trailing truck, a headlight and bell location?
Same is true of their B&O lettered USRA Light Mikados and Pacifics, so depending on your level of "picky", those are fantasy schemes too.
Personally, I don't have any interest in any of these more extreme/obvious fantasy schemes, I don't model those railroads.
But I have no problem with my generic Spectrum 2-8-0's lettered B&O and WESTERN MARYLAND - they are close enough.
I find it a bit offensive that some modelers would suggest that companies should not make fantasy paint schemes or even make generic models at all - let alone paint them in various road names. That term some use, "foobie", I hate that term. It does nothing good for this hobby.
ConCor and Bachmann have made holiday train schemes for decades - clearly some people like them.
Letter your BigBoy to any road you like.
Most of my locos are lettered for this road:
Everybody should decide their own "close enough" rules.
Sheldon
Trainman440 Personally find fantasy schemes really undesirable...especially when a manfacturer make them "limited edition" or a trainworld (or other store) "exclusive", just to artificially inflate their rarity and value. I will say that certain schemes are better than others. Fantasy schemes from the same railroad (like an ATSF warbonnet steam loco for ex) or schemes from future mergers (like a PRR loco decorated for Penn Central) in my opinion are better than the completely bizzare ones. Charles
So please explain, is a BLI Pacific lettered as a B&O P7 a "fantasy scheme" or just "incorrect"?
And what makes that differrent from some steam loco with a Daylight scheme that never had that scheme or it being a loco the SP never had?
If we are going to object to this we need it to be defined?
Again, I do think manufacturers should identify these fantasy locos, but if your not buying, why would you care?
i find it kinda interesting, and some of the fantasey schemes are very nice.
I'm generally pretty realistic, but I think that "plausible" ones are interesting. NS did their heritage fleet and CN has been slow rolling out one. Is there an ES44AC in GN sky blue? Is there an ACL "Champion" in purple? No, but it wouldn't be much of a stretch for something like those to exist. They're just paint jobs on equipment that they already own. It isn't like a GN GG1 that likely never could have existed.
NittanyLion I'm generally pretty realistic, but I think that "plausible" ones are interesting. NS did their heritage fleet and CN has been slow rolling out one. Is there an ES44AC in GN sky blue? Is there an ACL "Champion" in purple? No, but it wouldn't be much of a stretch for something like those to exist. They're just paint jobs on equipment that they already own. It isn't like a GN GG1 that likely never could have existed.
Admittedly that aspect of this is hard for me to follow, I know there are heritage paint schemes, but I don't follow modern railroading so I would not know an accurate heritage scheme from a fictional one.
And I would not know the correct era for any of these diesels past the early 70's.
So it's all good to me, whatever people want that the manufacturers are willing to make.
Hmmmm,
While im for the 'idea' of seeing the what if side, so far, im not impressed with the results that ive seen.
So 50/50 here.
PMR
I model the BNSFs' Pikes Peak Sub which runs from Denver to Pueblo Colorado. I model engines that I like in BNSF, ATSF, BN and GN colors. For example I have five U50B's painted in these colors. If I liket he engine I will paint it and run it on my railroad.
DrWYou could make greenbonnets, purplebonnets, pinkbonnets, blackbonnets, whitebonnets,...
1) Look up the history of the D&H Sharknoses -- one of the more significant model contributions to railroad reality...
2) Google 'vomit bonnet'...
While my entire layout is present day, there is a long Union Pacific "City of Los Angeles" pulled with E units traveling through. No one on the layout seems to notice or care.
York1 John
ATLANTIC CENTRAL So please explain, is a BLI Pacific lettered as a B&O P7 a "fantasy scheme" or just "incorrect"? And what makes that differrent from some steam loco with a Daylight scheme that never had that scheme or it being a loco the SP never had? If we are going to object to this we need it to be defined? Again, I do think manufacturers should identify these fantasy locos, but if your not buying, why would you care? Sheldon
Im just saying in my opinion, an SP cab forward painted for SP daylight is less offensive than a PRR E6 painted in SP Daylight schemes. The lesser of two evils of sorts. That's just my opinion, there is no defined law or rule that outright states one is better than the other. As you said, I dont really care since I wouldnt buy either anyways.
And since you asked, I think a B&O P7 is a fantasy scheme that isnt as offensive, since the USRA heavy pacific is the closest model BLI made to a B&O P7 in terms of dimensions. I know of B&O modelers who have taken BLI USRA heavy pacifics as a starting point and kitbashed/modified them to better resemble P7 pacifics.
Trainman440 ATLANTIC CENTRAL Trainman440 Personally find fantasy schemes really undesirable...especially when a manfacturer make them "limited edition" or a trainworld (or other store) "exclusive", just to artificially inflate their rarity and value. I will say that certain schemes are better than others. Fantasy schemes from the same railroad (like an ATSF warbonnet steam loco for ex) or schemes from future mergers (like a PRR loco decorated for Penn Central) in my opinion are better than the completely bizzare ones. Charles So please explain, is a BLI Pacific lettered as a B&O P7 a "fantasy scheme" or just "incorrect"? And what makes that differrent from some steam loco with a Daylight scheme that never had that scheme or it being a loco the SP never had? If we are going to object to this we need it to be defined? Again, I do think manufacturers should identify these fantasy locos, but if your not buying, why would you care? Sheldon Im just saying in my opinion, an SP cab forward painted for SP daylight is less offensive than a PRR E6 painted in SP Daylight schemes. That's just my opinion, there is no defined law or rule that outright states one is better than the other. And since you asked, I think a B&O P7 is a fantasy scheme that isnt as offensive, as the USRA heavy pacific is the closest model BLI made to a B&O P7 in terms of dimensions. I know of B&O modelers who have taken BLI USRA heavy pacifics as a starting point and kitbashed/modified them to better resemble P7 pacifics. Charles
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Trainman440 Personally find fantasy schemes really undesirable...especially when a manfacturer make them "limited edition" or a trainworld (or other store) "exclusive", just to artificially inflate their rarity and value. I will say that certain schemes are better than others. Fantasy schemes from the same railroad (like an ATSF warbonnet steam loco for ex) or schemes from future mergers (like a PRR loco decorated for Penn Central) in my opinion are better than the completely bizzare ones. Charles So please explain, is a BLI Pacific lettered as a B&O P7 a "fantasy scheme" or just "incorrect"? And what makes that differrent from some steam loco with a Daylight scheme that never had that scheme or it being a loco the SP never had? If we are going to object to this we need it to be defined? Again, I do think manufacturers should identify these fantasy locos, but if your not buying, why would you care? Sheldon
Im just saying in my opinion, an SP cab forward painted for SP daylight is less offensive than a PRR E6 painted in SP Daylight schemes. That's just my opinion, there is no defined law or rule that outright states one is better than the other.
And since you asked, I think a B&O P7 is a fantasy scheme that isnt as offensive, as the USRA heavy pacific is the closest model BLI made to a B&O P7 in terms of dimensions. I know of B&O modelers who have taken BLI USRA heavy pacifics as a starting point and kitbashed/modified them to better resemble P7 pacifics.
OK, fair enough. So yes, if I did model SP I would not be buying an E6 in Daylight colors. But as it stands, I'm not buying and E6 in any paint scheme.....
I do think it is sad the BLI could not change those three highly recognizable features on those Pacific's and Mikado's - Bachmann managed it......
Trainman440And since you asked, I think a B&O P7 is a fantasy scheme that isnt as offensive, since the USRA heavy pacific is the closest model BLI made to a B&O P7 in terms of dimensions. I know of B&O modelers who have taken BLI USRA heavy pacifics as a starting point and kitbashed/modified them to better resemble P7 pacifics.
I think we need to make a clear distinction between deliberate "fantasy" and "stand-in"....
A USRA 4-6-2 painted for Conrail is a fantasy because that clearly never existed.
A USRA 4-6-2 painted for Baltimore & Ohio is a stand-in if it's meant to represent a similar real-world engine even if the details don't quite match. (Steam is particularly difficult because almost everything was unique between railroads.) I wouldn't call this a "fantasy".
These are two very different things.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
The situation is not quite that easy: what about a Mantua 4-6-2 painted in not B&O, but Chessie System colors, to stand in for the Chessie Steam Special?
Thank you for all the comments! Like i said, i find this interesting. I can see someone using a BLI P5a Milw Rd as a stand in for a EP or EF1 if your modeling / kit bashing skills are not that great (especially in N scale). And, i don't want to be a jerk, but what is more "incorrect", a UP BigBoy working the GN main line or a GN 4-8-8-4? i guess when i decide i'll let everyone know. cheers!
cv_acr Trainman440 And since you asked, I think a B&O P7 is a fantasy scheme that isnt as offensive, since the USRA heavy pacific is the closest model BLI made to a B&O P7 in terms of dimensions. I know of B&O modelers who have taken BLI USRA heavy pacifics as a starting point and kitbashed/modified them to better resemble P7 pacifics. I think we need to make a clear distinction between deliberate "fantasy" and "stand-in".... A USRA 4-6-2 painted for Conrail is a fantasy because that clearly never existed. A USRA 4-6-2 painted for Baltimore & Ohio is a stand-in if it's meant to represent a similar real-world engine even if the details don't quite match. (Steam is particularly difficult because almost everything was unique between railroads.) I wouldn't call this a "fantasy". These are two very different things.
Trainman440 And since you asked, I think a B&O P7 is a fantasy scheme that isnt as offensive, since the USRA heavy pacific is the closest model BLI made to a B&O P7 in terms of dimensions. I know of B&O modelers who have taken BLI USRA heavy pacifics as a starting point and kitbashed/modified them to better resemble P7 pacifics.
OK, without going into Overmod's comment which has merit, if we take the position that manufacturers should identify "fantasy schemes", should they identify "stand in" models?
And when does a "stand in" cross the line? Like Overmod said, a Mantua Pacific (reasonably close to a later B&O P7) painted in Chessie colors to represent a Reading 4-8-4?
I would not consider either a UP or a GN bigboy running on GN tracks much of a fantasy. The UP could be said to have trackage rights on the GN or it is a diverted train. The GN big boy could be said to be testing one or having purchased one or more for themselves.
aiirelandI can see someone using a BLI P5a Milw Rd as a stand in for a EP or EF1
The P5as were not exactly a successful locomotive design, in that their equalization was awful and their frames prone to repeated cracking. Now, they were not as overlightened as the Milwaukee's EP1 frames, but similar levels of stress might have produced increased suspension and frame issues were the railroad to purchase P5s and convert them to 3000VDC... say, after the 1943 electrification to Pittsburgh and all the DD2s and other power were added.
Far more 'sensible' would be for Milwaukee to have used some of the NYC Cleveland Union Terminal P-motors we were writing about in the other thread... something you could kinda-sorta model with a P5a body on a GG1 underframe...
York1While my entire layout is present day, there is a long Union Pacific "City of Los Angeles" pulled with E units traveling through.
Seen on Horseshoe Curve:
180604_13_curve by lmyers83, on Flickr
I recall another UP streamliner touring the east back in the late '40s maybe. Even if it happened rarely these kinds of events are worth modeling.
Cheers, Ed
Ed, that's a beautiful sight! I took the City of Portland to Tacoma, Washington, in the late 50s as a kid, and that still is my favorite vacation of all time.
I have a few "fantasy" painted units, and a few "stand-ins" as well in my roster.
One such "fantasy" unit is a Erie Lackawanna GE ES44AC. It simply never existed. But, if NS did 1 more heritage unit, it could have... Others, are my freelanced road. Those I have all the wiggle room I want.
One "stand-in" is a custom one, a AC44CW painted as a WNY&P AC6000 rebuild unit. It's "close enough" in that a GE AC44 is very close to the AC6000, especially after the rebuild was done on the 6000 series unit. People expect a wide cab GE AC unit, and see a wide cab GE AC unit, so they may not even notice the lack of a second exhaust stack, or the slightly shorter frame on the AC44 model.
And, the famous "It's my railroad" rule applies, if I want to run a 2-8-2 alongside a Alco C630, next to a GE Evolution series unit, I can. (And, on the real WNY&P, the C630m WNYP owns has met a NS GEVO before, so it's actually prototypical!)
So, if you want a GN 4-8-8-4, or a EL ES44AC like I have, get it and run it. Have fun, because if you have fun, your are doing model railroading correctly, as model railroading is fun!
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
I liked the Athearn FP45 recently released that were in fantasy WP orange/silver and the BNSF H2 paint scheme (orange/yellow with the cigar band and pinstripes)
I know what you guy mean about how frustrating these "Fantasy Schemes" can be.
Just look at this model of SGRR locomotive 508:
-Photograph by Kevin Parson
The prototype for this locomotive had center side louver stampings that were only 17-3/8 of an inch because of a misplaced stamping die in the factory that assembled the doors. The (poorly researched and innacurate) model has the louvers modeled in a scale 17-27/64 of an inch.
I don't understand why they couldn't get this detail right with just a little bit of research.
However, that detail is correct for locomotive number 505, but 505 had the bell positioned 3/16 of an inch off-center on the short hood.
Thus, this model has the right bell position for 508, but the correct louvers for 505. This is unforgiveable.
These fantasy schemes simply need to stop. It is ruining the hobby.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Kevin that is one great looking locomotive.
Russell