Lastspikemike On the OP's original point I remain convinced that manufacturers are sharing tooling in some organized way to exploit the market as fully as possible. Can't prove it but it sure seems likely. After all, the prototypes were all "the same" so each manufacturer's model has to be the same as the next guy's
On the OP's original point I remain convinced that manufacturers are sharing tooling in some organized way to exploit the market as fully as possible. Can't prove it but it sure seems likely. After all, the prototypes were all "the same" so each manufacturer's model has to be the same as the next guy's
Well no, and all you have to do is set the models of Big Boys from the various brands next to each other and you see the differences, which will be even more obvious if you turn them over or take them apart.
The Chevy parts do not fit the Ford. So it is not the same tooling.
Now, in the long history of this hobby tooling has moved from brand to brand, products have been partly retooled, either by the original maker or a new owner.
And back in the day there were some companies who made parts for each other.
Tooling for steam locomotives is expensive, but not near as expensive today as it was 50 years ago - inflation adjusted. That's why models were simpler with less detail back then.
I think I will skip any efforts to explain more.....
Sheldon
CN Charlie;
My friend, I'm with you 1000% on that waiting too long. I wonder if I will ever see some of my pre-order's!
Although I don't model Canadian, I do have a strong liking for CN's 2-8-0, 2-8-2 and 2-10-2's, and would gladly make room for models of what I believe good, "honest" steam power should look like.
I model CNR in 1955 which means a lot of steam as CN ran steam right through 1959 especially in my hometown of Winnipeg. At age 12 that year I was railfanning on the westbound mainline and about 50% of the trains where hauled by steam, virtually all oil burners. To get models of CN steam brass is the only way to obtain accurate models and most of those are 40 or more years old. The only plastic model was a Northern that True Line brought out about 10 years ago. Rapido may do a few but none to date and at my age I can't wait too long.
CN Charlie
E
LastspikemikeAfter all, the prototypes were all "the same" so each manufacturer's model has to be the same as the next guy's
Should be the same...but somehow they are different. Interersting theory...
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
up831Cal scale and Kemtron offered hundreds of lost wax brass cast steam locomotive parts that are now difficult to find or at least are not readily available.
There's loads of Cal-Scale at English's Model Railroad Supply in Montoursville, PA., and a fair amount of steam-related castings from other manufacturers, too.
Wayne
PRR8259Surveys have shown that most people want to "model" or "collect" the trains they saw during the most impressionable time of their life, typically childhood or college. That means the 1960's to today's rolling stock is hot, and prior rolling stock is fading in its sales appeal.
John,
I guess Accurail didn't get that memo prior to releasing their ca. 1900-1940 36' Fowler and wood-sheath boxcar kits, which apparently have been selling well, as evidenced by the "Out of Stock" status on numerous previously released cars in those series.
Steam had pretty much evaporated by the time I came along. Yet, I am drawn to it and model it - along with early diesel - because I find it much more interesting visually than model deisels, which all pretty much looks the same to me. But, I guess one can argue that 40' & 50' rolling stock in various shades of boxcar red suffers the same blight.
I didn't realize that Bowser made RTR steam locomotives. I was aware of and have seen the steam kits but never their RTR steam. Maybe they are in a locked vault next to the RTR Accurail cars? I think that Accurail experiment lasted maybe a year or two before they punted and went back to their bread & butter kits. Over 45% of my current rolling stock is made up of Accurail kits.
Tom
An interesting thread throughout.
As someone from the U.K. may I join in and say what the situation here is?
First on a personal view.
When my grandchildren first became interested in my layout they could not handle the large carriages and diesel locomotives in my collection. Therefore I purchased some Thomas the Tank items. Apart from 'Thomas, Annie & Clarabel' it was an expensive mistake.
I should have listened to them as to what they wanted.
Anyway, it has come to be that they want to see the diesels running. The faster the better according to my second grandson. My other four grandchildren prefer to run trains a little slower.
My younger granddaughter is 'the train nut'. She will go anywhere where there are trains. She loves the 1-1 stuff be it steam, diesel or rolling stock.
Secondly - the view here in the U.K.
Older modellers tended to model a time they remember. That was usually steam era.
The younger modellers modelling the diesel era with models of Flying Scotsman or Tornado alongside.
Recently there has been a (big) shift to modelling pre 1923 era by young and old. Rolling stock of this timeframe are 'flying off the shelves'. I am one of them when I run my steam engines
Model Railway Manufacturers are producing steam locomotives in pre1923 liveries at a fast rate.
Now we have the pre1923 group, the I remember my youth group and the diesels group.
David
To the world you are someone. To someone you are the world
I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought
At our local club, only 4 members out of 20 have steamers, and only 2 of us run steam on a regular basis. However, ALL members enjoy seeing steam engines, but prefer diesels because they are easier to run and are less fussy. Steam engines are always a hit among visitors as well. Old and young.
So, if manufacturers can continue producing reliable and easy to fix steam, I think they will maintain that market. Everybody loves seeing those little moving parts... Bachmann has been a blessing for those modeling on a budget, like me. The only beef I have about their recent offerings is the molded details. They used to have more detailled engines in a very recent past. A step backwards. I have no clue how that affected their costs, but I just can convince myself paying many hundreds of dollars for a steamer with molded on details.
Another beef of mine is the poor pulling abilities of the smaller Bachmann steamers. They really should consider adding traction tires. Or consider using a different metal - with more traction - for their drivers. All-wheel pickup on their tenders would allow them to use another alloy for the drivers, with more traction.
Don't get me wrong, I am very grateful that Bachmann has maintained their line of steamers at affordable prices. Good buys, and a good aftermarket service (and parts!). But improvements are always possible.
Simon
No Shortage of Steam Parts!
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
I feel a large part of the problem is, very few modelers have seen an actual non-fantrip steam locomotive at work. At 74 years on this planet, my memories of steam are only featureless, dark masses. Oh sure there's fantrip steam. They too are part of the problem, as I see it. Want a shocker? Ask the younger crowd, "How many of you have ever seen a diesel without ditch lights? A Baldwin or, Lima-Hamilton diesel? If they look at you as if you just sprouted a third eye, don't be shocked!
People have trouble developing in interest in something they have never seen. For instance, my daughter is a knowledgable railfan. She is a middle-aged wife, and mother of two 20 somethings, so she's not a kid. We were talking railroading one day and I asked her about her major interests in railroading. Her answer was the Southern Pacific, before Golden West Services came about, before the Gyralights were removed and before the diesels were "lobotomized", before speed lettering, and there was a caboose on every train. No conspicuity stripes, no wide noses and no d----- ditch lights! I then asked her about steam. "Oh ,its nice but I never saw it in real life, I prefer diesels." SP , 1981, in common English.
It is not about the complexity of the model, variety of wheel arrangements, price, or any of those things. The main problem is, most people born after 1950, have never experienced, nor do they vivdly remember an honest, work-a-day, steam locomotive in revenue service. Notice I didn't include the fan-trip queens, tourist haulers, or even the stuffed and mounted guardians of so many municipal parks.
Just like you don't see horse drawn stagecoaches, or open cockpit bi-planes every day, steam has become an "event", somewhat similar to the circus coming to town. People go, gawk-and move on to the next "event". It is hard to develope enough interest in something you may only see once in your lifetime, to make you want to spend $500 or more for just a model-if a model is available. You can get a couple of nice diesels for less. And you can see the real thing multiple times daily in most cases, right in your own hometown.
Another aspect of this is, as young people we live in the "now" wanting to model what we see ""now". As our youth fades we spend more and more time with our fond memories. Our modeling usually circles back to the time when we were first awed by trains and railroads. For too many, there are no steam locomotives to remember.
Another post mentioned that most of the HO steamers available were models of the fantrip engines. Simple answer, that's what people relate to because that is what they see, and that is what they want. The problem as I see it is, the young are not all that interested in steam because it is not a part of their every day lives. Those young that want it, can't afford it.
This leaves a very tiny market, that is shrinking every day, for the companies to aim for. I fear that like the real thing, model steam is dying a slow death. Yes, as long as 4014 continues to boil water, there will be a demand for models of it--but, like 3985, 4014's day will come, and the show will be over. Then what? 1309?
DrW As a side note, to me BLI's decision to produce the Blue Goose came as a bit of a surprise, considering that there was only a single prototype locomotive, and that models had been produced previously.
Good steam, modeling wise, is enduring and worth repairing, many times when a diesel is kaput, you just replace its mechanisum.
Manufacturers first and foremost are going to produce what they believe will sell.
We have reached a point where other than Big Boys and Challengers and big UP Northerns, and excepting BLI's steam line and certain fan trip steam engines, they don't think steam can sell well enough to justify the cost expenditures. The next one up will be C&O 1309 in HO...because it lives again.
After many years of both kit and rtr steam locos, Bowser completely dropped their entire line of steam engines, many years back now. If Lee English actually thought there was any money to be made, they would make steam power. However, Canadian diesels are "in", and sell extremely well for them, as the Canadian market was very under-served all these years. Generally speaking, they are making what they can sell the most units of. There was no Genesis-level Alco RS-3 available, so they made it.
Steam engines are the most expensive models, always require special care and feeding, and the generation that had any memory of them at all is rapidly leaving the scene.
Surveys have shown that most people want to "model" or "collect" the trains they saw during the most impressionable time of their life, typically childhood or college. That means the 1960's to today's rolling stock is hot, and prior rolling stock is fading in its sales appeal.
Respectfully submitted--
John
Texas Zephyr Not perception, but in my opinion has gotten BETTER in recent years.
Not perception, but in my opinion has gotten BETTER in recent years.
I agree completely, and BLI remains the front runner. As Santa Fe modeler and ignoring foobies, for the last 15 or so years the only non-brass steam locomotives you could buy were BLI's 3751 class 4-8-4s and 3800 class 2-10-2s, plus P2K's 1790 class 2-8-8-2s (a beautiful model; however, the Santa Fe used the prototype only for a few years in the mid-1940s as helpers), all pretty large engines. Then, about a year ago BLI came out with the 4000 class Mikados, which are much more useful for smaller layouts. Furthermore, later this year BLI will offer the only streamlined steam locomotive the Santa Fe ever owned, the "Blue Goose" 3460 4-6-4.
As a side note, to me BLI's decision to produce the Blue Goose came as a bit of a surprise, considering that there was only a single prototype locomotive, and that models had been produced previously. The old plastic Rivarossi model might not be much of a competition, but there are three different brass versions available (PFM, Tenshodo, Hallmark). Considering that the new BLI Blue Goose will be a brass hybrid, the older brass versions might become more affordable, especially as they pop up quite frequently on eBay.
steamlocosonly...for nowI've been back in this hobby for just about a year now. Is it just my perception or is there a lack of steam product from the big model producers.
It seems like everyone manufactures the same models at about the same time. Is this done to be competitive or does it just happen by chance. I've noticed that just about every major manufacturer has produced either an F3 or F7 in the last year. There are also quite a few representations on SW 7s, Geeps, and FAs being marketed simultaneously. Any reasons behind this?
steamlocosonly...for now ... Is it just my perception or is there a lack of steam product from the big model producers. It seems like everyone manufactures the same models at about the same time. Is this done to be competitive or does it just happen by chance....
... Is it just my perception or is there a lack of steam product from the big model producers. It seems like everyone manufactures the same models at about the same time.
Is this done to be competitive or does it just happen by chance....
In the short 16 years I have been in the hobby, the only direct competition apparent to me was between the now-gone MTH HO model offerings and BLI. The other producers of steam, the spotty Lionel HO offerings, the occasional Genesis Big Boy, Challenger, FEF, and Southern Mountain class with skyline casing (I think it is), whatever five or six BLI brought out yearly, Bachmann still dabbling in steam, Rivarossi, and now Rapido, we have done reasonably well if you like big steam and limited roads. Many of these also offer in N scale.
If there was any competition, it wasn't overt. Instead, they each sampled their customer's desires, often based on historical information and markets, and kept those coming. Proto 2000 have gone, and I don't see Walthers being enthusiastic about steam any more; in that respect, they do have competition...too much of it.
If you think about it, steam has also hit a demise in the model arena for the afore stated reasons. Cal scale and Kemtron offered hundreds of lost wax brass cast steam locomotive parts that are now difficult to find or at least are not readily available. Back in the 50s and 60s, there were lots of freelanced steam layouts with modified locomotives, which reflected actual practice with steam locos on real railroads. Back then, you could get a (very popular) United Ma & Pa 2-8-0, which begged to be modified for under $35.
Well, times changed. Brass prices escalated. The demand for brass castings went down. Kemtron went away. Cal Scale got absorbed. But then, people started modifying BB diesels, which as stated before, are easier, just like the real thing.
At least I hope this helps.
Jim (with a nod to Mies Van Der Rohe)
Diesel was largely standardized with simpler mold lines.
Steam has complex working gears with a very large variety.
Sadly more profit is in diesel. Bachmann and BLI get my money, even for diesels. They go you can kiss the steam market bye bye. Walthers clearly gave up on steam. I miss the Proto USRA 2-8-8-2, N&W, Berks, and 0-8-0/0-6-0 yard goats.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
I think the biggest reason we don't see a whole lot of steam is because its just more expensive and harder to run.
Pretty much every diesel model uses the same basic chassis and mechanical components, just swapping out details and lengthening/shortening the model, and putting a different body on top. A lot of companies are still using the same basic chassis, just with nicer electronics, that they developed in the 80s. Diesels run well on small radius track, are easy to make, and, as others have said, are getting to be the main type of locomotives remembered. Diesels also have the benefit that they were mass produced and pretty standardized. Its not like steam where there were 5-10 major manufacturers, and each railroad asked for major differences in their delivery: pretty much every GP7 is a GP7. There might be small differences between railroads: pennsy and southern ran them long hood forward, for instance, but that is just part of the paint job and installing the electronics. Most of the other modifications are either so minor that 99% of modellers won't notice, or are easy enough to change.Steam doesn't have any of that. While the ability to run steam well has greatly increased in the past 20 years, particularly now with the introduction of keep alive capabilities, it still is harder to run, a layout using steam needs to have some way to turn locomotives around, and maintenance on them is a lot more fiddly. That's also, ultimately, why railroads dropped steam power. They had to run their own machine shops to make new parts instead of buying spares from the major producers, they needed a lot more space to service them, they needed a way to turn them around, and they took way more man hours to maintain.
I see mucch steam advertised in MR, more of the good brands too, but the price is far out of reach for a LION.
I am done buying equipmenta as my railroad is as mature as it is going to get. I only hope that I can still get up there tto finish up the details, get the trains running as intended, and make some videos of it.
I'm a leading-edge Baby Boomer. I turn 75 next week. My generation has some personal memories of steam, but not much. Mostly, I remember those old F-units and Geeps. As my brethren head for that Big Roundhouse in the Sky, or maybe that hot and smelly basement, steam will become a niche market.
I still lke the Transition Era, but more and more, we'll see layouts set newer than that.
I am just glad that I can still buy a caboose.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I've been back in this hobby for just about a year now. Is it just my perception or is there a lack of steam product from the big model producers. It seems like everyone manufactures the same models at about the same time.
Is this done to be competitive or does it just happen by chance. I've noticed that just about every major manufacturer has produced either an F3 or F7 in the last year. There are also quite a few representations on SW 7s, Geeps, and FAs being marketed simultaneously. Any reasons behind this?