Having never seen steam in regular operation, it would seem it does not have as big of a draw.
But, having seen steam fan trips, I love steam. Therefore, I do own a couple of steam loco's, NKP 765, NW 611, and a pair of Erie RR steamers. (Mantua I was gifted, and a Blueline 2-8-2 Mike. Erie RR ran their main line right through my hometown.)
But it is very hard to justify the price, when I can buy two (or more) diesels for the same price as one steamer.
Would I love more steam locomotive models? Yes. Will I be able to afford a "limited run" accurate steam model when it is released? Possibly yes, but just (or even more) as possible no.
Do I want more diesels? Depending on roadname and unit, yes. Can I afford "limited run" accurate models of diesels when announced? More possible yes than with steam.
Will Steam fit my layout's theme? Fan trips, yes. Diesels? Much more so, yes. My layout's theme is set at an era I like, but also one I can afford.
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
It's a utter shame that Alfred Perlman scrapped nearly all the NYC steamers, as there so few left today to visit in person. It was a real treat to be able to see the refurbished NYC L-2d 4-8-2 Mohawk #2933 at the St. Louis Museum of Transportation back in 2018. That and L-3a #3001 at the NYCRR Museum in Elkhart are the only large steam engines left from the extensive NYC fleet. Not even ONE Hudson or Niagara was spared the torch.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I want to thank everyone for their very unique replys. It helped me understand the trend. I am replying to this particular post because I can relate this this user's reasoning. I did not grow up during the steam era, but I did grow up in an era when Lionel's most attractive productions were Steam locos. I also can appreciate a certain romanticism for the era of train travel during the steam era, which I consider the heyday of train travel. Personally, I chose to collect and model the New York Central for various personal reasons. For one, I love Grand Central Station even in it's present form. Secondly, I was born and lived the first 13 years of my life in New York. Thirdly, I love to watch the Long Island Railroad passenger trains pass through my neighborhood (I know, not the New York Central, but stiil memories from NY.) And, recently, I discovered that not only did a great-grandfather of my heritage play a huge part in purchasing land for the expansion of the New York Central into Westchester County and northward, but he also was a member of the board of directors of the Westchester Northern RR that never reached actual operation before being cancelled. I guess the attraction for me to the steam era is more of an interest into my ancestry than it is to what I remembered seeeing as a child. I am fascinated by the 20th century limited and would have loved to have been able to experience travelling on that train. That being said, there are many diesel locos and more modern passenger and freight cars I like, however, due to how expensive this hobby has become I decided to narrow my interests down to something more manageable.
John-NYBW I know the Consolidation is an excellent loco. I have three of them. I like their Ten Wheeler too. I have two of them. I also have their Niagra. Worst piece of junk I ever put on my layout. It is now a static scenic feature on a garden track next to the roundhouse. I also had the SP and NW 4-8-4s. I bought them on my LHS second hand shelf. Neither wanted to stay on the rails. Normally my LHS does not take returns on second hand items but they made an exception. I guess being a regular customer has its advantages. Bachmann is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're going to get in terms of quality. I've gotten some very good locos from Bachmann and also junk. I liked when Spectrum was a seperate line because I could count on quality. Now it's a guessing game and I won't play that game.
I know the Consolidation is an excellent loco. I have three of them. I like their Ten Wheeler too. I have two of them. I also have their Niagra. Worst piece of junk I ever put on my layout. It is now a static scenic feature on a garden track next to the roundhouse. I also had the SP and NW 4-8-4s. I bought them on my LHS second hand shelf. Neither wanted to stay on the rails. Normally my LHS does not take returns on second hand items but they made an exception. I guess being a regular customer has its advantages. Bachmann is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're going to get in terms of quality. I've gotten some very good locos from Bachmann and also junk. I liked when Spectrum was a seperate line because I could count on quality. Now it's a guessing game and I won't play that game.
John, those 4-8-4's were NEVER good locos until recently. They have been recently retooled, but that are likely still not the best Bachmann has ever done.
The Niagra has always been a problem as far back as I can remember, and I worked in a hobby shop in the 70's.
Admittedly on my part, I never had any interest in any of those prototypes and never thought much of the detail level on the Niagra.
I only have the N&W J because it is the basis for another kit bash. It is going to get its drive reworked and then it is going to become a streamlined oil burning 4-8-2 on the ATLANTIC CENTRAL.
They all make winners, they all make loosers, I don't exclude any brand (except maybe MTH) just on brand alone.
I have BLI steamers, as a brand I have had more problems percentage wise with them then I have with Bachmann. Go figure.
I have Proto2000 steamers, I have a few IHC steamers I have kitbashed.
I have a few Mantua steamers I have kit bashed.
I have just few, older pieces of brass.
Keep an open mind and talk to others about what they have had good luck with.
Sheldon
PRR8259 Sheldon-- It's a trend. Nothing in my post above is meant to apply to you. You are an exception to the trend, and you need to understand that. I didn't make it up; it is not my philosophy. It has been clearly stated, fairly often, by various manufacturers. Since they know the actual sales numbers, I can only assume they actually know the truth. I am only quoting what I've read elsewhere and fairly often. On some other train forums it is very clear that they don't give two hoots about steam at all. Sure you can post a new topic like wow, "BLI is making a Blue Goose", but beyond that nobody really cares, and there will be only very limited replies if any at all. If the numbers aren't there, then they just aren't there, and it's not even about which one of us wants to model X, Y or Z. Brass importer representatives or their associates (who produce the build packages of drawings etc) have stated that there are many steam locos that nobody can get even 100 units to sell. The price point doesn't really matter; it's high, but if you can't get 100 sales there is no hope of making the model at any price and that would include HO diecast/brass hybrids. Respectfully submitted-- John
Sheldon--
It's a trend. Nothing in my post above is meant to apply to you. You are an exception to the trend, and you need to understand that.
I didn't make it up; it is not my philosophy. It has been clearly stated, fairly often, by various manufacturers. Since they know the actual sales numbers, I can only assume they actually know the truth. I am only quoting what I've read elsewhere and fairly often.
On some other train forums it is very clear that they don't give two hoots about steam at all. Sure you can post a new topic like wow, "BLI is making a Blue Goose", but beyond that nobody really cares, and there will be only very limited replies if any at all.
If the numbers aren't there, then they just aren't there, and it's not even about which one of us wants to model X, Y or Z. Brass importer representatives or their associates (who produce the build packages of drawings etc) have stated that there are many steam locos that nobody can get even 100 units to sell. The price point doesn't really matter; it's high, but if you can't get 100 sales there is no hope of making the model at any price and that would include HO diecast/brass hybrids.
Respectfully submitted--
John
John, you missed the point. I am not disputing the trend. I agree rather completely that the modeling trend is away from steam, and older eras.
But I am challenging the suggested cause of the trend.
Try to follow some simple math here. Just for this discussion, lets consider each decade a modeling era. And lets start the history of "modern" railroading at 1890.
So that means in 1968 when I started in this hobby, there were 8 era choices.
Today we are entering era number 14, and I suspect the number of modelers has not grown in direct proportion with this constant increase in available prototypes to model.
So forget steam, and forget which eras might be most popular, Even if interest is evenly distributed over the eras, the number of modelers interested in each era is CONSIDERABLY smaller. So the demand for EMD F7's is now dramaticly watered down when compared to 1960, or 1970.
Then add in the fact that older people in the hobby, at least the ones who know what they want, already have a lot of the older prototypes they might be interested in.
Then factor in how many nice F7's different companies have beat each other up with in the last 20 years.
That clearly leaves a large percentage of the market to more modern prototypes, that exclude steam.
So even the old guy who is interested in current era modeling is a customer for models whos prototypes did not exist a decade ago.
But the old guy who models 1950 and has spent 50 years buying what he wanted all along is not a strong customer for large volumes of new models of older prototypes.
It has LITTLE to do with people not being interested in steam because they are younger and/or never saw one.
As I said before, you either have an interest in history, or you don't. And your current age is not much of a factor in that.
I'm not the exception, I prove the rule.
I have spent 50 years accumulating models for my era - 1954.
I have never changed my era, got bored and sold off all my trains.
Or needed cash and sold off all my trains.
And I'm not inclined to replace models I considered acceptable 20 years ago with new models just because the new model is better, be it a lot or a little.
So there is no point in a manufacturer catering to me. I still buy stuff, but not at the rate I did 20 or 30 years ago.
I did just order four RS-3's from Bowser. I did just buy some Rapido F30 flat cars. I would have bought a few PA1's undecorated, and there are a few other locos I want, but don't need.
And I also bought some old Athearn blue box stuff at the last train show.
I don't need that many more trains, I need more time to play with them.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL John-NYBW Bachmann offered a real fine Consolidation and Ten Wheeler in the Spectrum line before they merged that with the Standard line which was of much lower quality. They offered lots of choices of roads as well. Since they did away with the Spectrum line, I just don't trust them anymore. I don't know if I'm going to get a quality loco or low end. Since this is a niche hobby to begin with, it's probably not realistic to expect manufacturers to produce a wide variety of prototypically accurate locos. If only a handful of people want a loco that is accurate to a specific prototype, there just isn't any profit to be made. John, I have a lot of Bachmann locos. Trust me on this, a Consolidation you buy from them today in a much simpler box, is the EXACT same loco that came in a Spectrum box. I have 11 Bachmann Consolidations from every era of production, and have had most of them apart. They have done nothing but make it better, not cheaper. Go to their web site and look at the parts breakdowns. The same design the same parts, the same loco. And the recent regular line new introductions, Mikado, Pacific, and even the not as recent 2-8-4, are all riding of drivelines similar to or better than any of the older Spectrum locos, admittedly with slightly less detail. So is that it? A BLI loco, or and old Spectrum loco is better because it comes in an expensive fancy box? I keep the boxes but I don't run the boxes...... They did also re-release the 10 wheeler with simpler detail, the drive is the same. There is no winning end game for them to retool an exisiting loco to try and make it "cheaper" from a mechanical standpoint. That is not were the money is in the tooling - all the separate detail parts is where the money is. The Spectrum line was not perfect, just like none of these brands are perfect. But dollar for dollar I consider my Bachmann fleet a better value than many of my other steam locos. Here is a Spectrum loco: And another: And this one is a "newer" standard line model - does it look any different? Well I can tell you the five regular line Berkshires converted into Mikes run just as well as my Spectrum "branded" 11 Consolidatons, 10 USRA Heavy Mountains, 5 USRA 2-6-6-2's, 3 USRA 2-10-2's, 2 4-6-0's and my B&O EM-1. The one Bachmann loco that is going to take some work to be a good performer is the N&W Class J 4-8-4. And while I don't really need them, I am considering several of the USRA Pacifics and Mikes. Sheldon
John-NYBW Bachmann offered a real fine Consolidation and Ten Wheeler in the Spectrum line before they merged that with the Standard line which was of much lower quality. They offered lots of choices of roads as well. Since they did away with the Spectrum line, I just don't trust them anymore. I don't know if I'm going to get a quality loco or low end. Since this is a niche hobby to begin with, it's probably not realistic to expect manufacturers to produce a wide variety of prototypically accurate locos. If only a handful of people want a loco that is accurate to a specific prototype, there just isn't any profit to be made.
Bachmann offered a real fine Consolidation and Ten Wheeler in the Spectrum line before they merged that with the Standard line which was of much lower quality. They offered lots of choices of roads as well. Since they did away with the Spectrum line, I just don't trust them anymore. I don't know if I'm going to get a quality loco or low end.
Since this is a niche hobby to begin with, it's probably not realistic to expect manufacturers to produce a wide variety of prototypically accurate locos. If only a handful of people want a loco that is accurate to a specific prototype, there just isn't any profit to be made.
John, I have a lot of Bachmann locos. Trust me on this, a Consolidation you buy from them today in a much simpler box, is the EXACT same loco that came in a Spectrum box. I have 11 Bachmann Consolidations from every era of production, and have had most of them apart. They have done nothing but make it better, not cheaper.
Go to their web site and look at the parts breakdowns. The same design the same parts, the same loco.
And the recent regular line new introductions, Mikado, Pacific, and even the not as recent 2-8-4, are all riding of drivelines similar to or better than any of the older Spectrum locos, admittedly with slightly less detail.
So is that it? A BLI loco, or and old Spectrum loco is better because it comes in an expensive fancy box? I keep the boxes but I don't run the boxes......
They did also re-release the 10 wheeler with simpler detail, the drive is the same.
There is no winning end game for them to retool an exisiting loco to try and make it "cheaper" from a mechanical standpoint. That is not were the money is in the tooling - all the separate detail parts is where the money is.
The Spectrum line was not perfect, just like none of these brands are perfect.
But dollar for dollar I consider my Bachmann fleet a better value than many of my other steam locos.
Here is a Spectrum loco:
And another:
And this one is a "newer" standard line model - does it look any different?
Well I can tell you the five regular line Berkshires converted into Mikes run just as well as my Spectrum "branded" 11 Consolidatons, 10 USRA Heavy Mountains, 5 USRA 2-6-6-2's, 3 USRA 2-10-2's, 2 4-6-0's and my B&O EM-1.
The one Bachmann loco that is going to take some work to be a good performer is the N&W Class J 4-8-4.
And while I don't really need them, I am considering several of the USRA Pacifics and Mikes.
PRR8259 allegedlynerdy ATLANTIC CENTRAL EVERYTHING Kemtron made is still available from these people: https://www.precisionscaleco.com/ And every time I order something they ship it pretty much right away. Like these brass Delta booster trailing trucks which come as kits: Off topic but I am glad you posted this: I have been looking for the DM&IR style headlights for quite awhile. That link is to an outdated web page. Did they ever re-open again?
allegedlynerdy ATLANTIC CENTRAL EVERYTHING Kemtron made is still available from these people: https://www.precisionscaleco.com/ And every time I order something they ship it pretty much right away. Like these brass Delta booster trailing trucks which come as kits: Off topic but I am glad you posted this: I have been looking for the DM&IR style headlights for quite awhile.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL EVERYTHING Kemtron made is still available from these people: https://www.precisionscaleco.com/ And every time I order something they ship it pretty much right away. Like these brass Delta booster trailing trucks which come as kits:
EVERYTHING Kemtron made is still available from these people:
https://www.precisionscaleco.com/
And every time I order something they ship it pretty much right away. Like these brass Delta booster trailing trucks which come as kits:
Off topic but I am glad you posted this: I have been looking for the DM&IR style headlights for quite awhile.
That link is to an outdated web page.
Did they ever re-open again?
? Outdated? Why? Because the web site is not flashy with a bunch of "new" information? They sell a buch of parts that don't really change much.
It links to all their PDF catalogs, I called the phone number, they are in business no question.
I would honestly love to see bachmann bring back the light 4-8-2.
John-NYBW richhotrain The topic of this thread is steam, but much the same can be said for passenger diesel. Steam had all but disappeared by 1955. Passenger diesel or, more specifically, passenger trains had all but disappeared by 1970 or so (disregarding Amtrak). If you are over age 55, you really don't remember much, if anything, about steam locomotives or diesel powered passenger trains that were so popular up through the 1960s. Rich I just turned 70 and I have only one memory of seeing a steam loco on a revenue run. It was the summer of 1956 and we were taking a car trip from Omaha to Chicago. Somewhere in Iowa, probably along US 30 since we crossed the Mississippi at Dubuque, I looked out to the right and there was a steam loco pulling what I'm guessing was about a 12 car freight. I have no idea what railroad it was but probably not a class 1. A few years later leaving Omaha by train toward Chicago, we went past a steam loco that was parked. I'm guessing it might have been the Big Boy that for many years was on display before being moved to a park a little south of there. Whatever it was, I remember my mother telling me that steam engines weren't used any more. This would have been Christmas of 1959.
richhotrain The topic of this thread is steam, but much the same can be said for passenger diesel. Steam had all but disappeared by 1955. Passenger diesel or, more specifically, passenger trains had all but disappeared by 1970 or so (disregarding Amtrak). If you are over age 55, you really don't remember much, if anything, about steam locomotives or diesel powered passenger trains that were so popular up through the 1960s. Rich
The topic of this thread is steam, but much the same can be said for passenger diesel. Steam had all but disappeared by 1955. Passenger diesel or, more specifically, passenger trains had all but disappeared by 1970 or so (disregarding Amtrak). If you are over age 55, you really don't remember much, if anything, about steam locomotives or diesel powered passenger trains that were so popular up through the 1960s.
Rich
I just turned 70 and I have only one memory of seeing a steam loco on a revenue run. It was the summer of 1956 and we were taking a car trip from Omaha to Chicago. Somewhere in Iowa, probably along US 30 since we crossed the Mississippi at Dubuque, I looked out to the right and there was a steam loco pulling what I'm guessing was about a 12 car freight. I have no idea what railroad it was but probably not a class 1. A few years later leaving Omaha by train toward Chicago, we went past a steam loco that was parked. I'm guessing it might have been the Big Boy that for many years was on display before being moved to a park a little south of there. Whatever it was, I remember my mother telling me that steam engines weren't used any more. This would have been Christmas of 1959.
There are several steam locomotives still in revenue service less than an hour drive from me.
In addition to its "tourist operation", the Strasburg Rail Road operates a a regional freight team track operation. Freight cars are moved from their interchange point with the AMTRAK/NS to their freight yard for transfer to trucks by local businnesses and farmers.
These freight trains are moved by the same steam locos that power their passenger trains.
Additionally, the Strasburg is not some weekend, four months out of the year, museum tourist line. Trains run most of the year and from April thru October they run 7 days a week, every hour on the hour.
At peak traffic times, trains run every 30 minutes.
It is a money making private enterprise, it is not owned, run, or funded by government.
That sounds like revenue service to me.
I have been watching those steam locomotives my whole life.
https://www.strasburgrailroad.com/freight/
So, a 1924 2-10-0, a 1906 4-8-0, and a 1910 2-6-0 move modern freight cars on a regular basis.
The posts so far have pretty well covered the reason of lack of manufacturing. You didn’t say what you are looking for. I model the late transition mid 1950s era, lots of steam.Early on I couldn’t afford to buy new steam locomotives, I went to train shows and picked up used locomotives. Most were clunkers. I found that I really enjoyed restoring them, I now have close to 70 restored locomotives, most off eBay as parts only. All look and run better than new.Buying clunkers and fixing them up is very rewarding. You can even kitbash them. I couldn’t find a SP 2-8-8-4 AC-9 Yellowstone and kitbashed several Rivarossi Cab Forwards into AC-9s.From this To thisI made new frames for several Rivarossi articulateds from brass strips and installed dual can motors.Anything is possible in this fabulous hobby. Mel
My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California Turned 84 in July, aging is definitely not for wimps.
I've wondered why model manufacturers don't make a point to offer steam engines that have been (or currently still are) used in fantrip service? I'm sure many modern-era modellers have an Milwaukee 261, SP 4449 or UP Challenger that they use on excursion trains now and then on their layout. There are other engines in fantrip service that could be modelled and fit both eras.
Back to the steam products, lots of us who do model steam have been upgrading our rooling stock and or engines. Used to be to get a detailed engine or car you would start with a model and do upgrades or build scratch, now you can get RTR that is better than most of could build. Also a lot of people don't know about the hidden gems that require very little rework to have a car that is almost as good as today like the Ertl cars, most just need new wheels and couplers and a paint job.
xboxtravis7992 Lastspikemike On the OP's original point I remain convinced that manufacturers are sharing tooling in some organized way to exploit the market as fully as possible. Can't prove it but it sure seems likely. After all, the prototypes were all "the same" so each manufacturer's model has to be the same as the next guy's No really the idea that there is behind the scenes tooling sharing going on is not absurd, but happens in some cases. One example I know of the top of my head is several OO9 models that PECO produces the tooling for, a box van wagon and an open top truck; that were shared with Bachmann for their Thomas and Friends line. The Bachmann models skip the air hoses and other finer details of the PECO models, but its pretty obvious when you compare them that they are the same toolilng with some minor variation in terms of parts used. There are certainly more examples, and I know OO9 is a very niche scale currently so some shared tooling is even more expected. BUT, to get back to the subject of steam engines. I think there is a growing demand for steam engine variety in certain modeling circles that might hopefully eventually swing the pendulum back to some variety. But the hardest thing to predict now, is since a large chunk of the modeling community has no experience with steam outside of what is preserved, what era is best to push into production? I know there is a thriving 19th Century modeling community being built up, that loathes that the only 4-4-0 they can get are the cheap Bachmann ones, but have had to make due with that for years. The demand and market is there, but neglect from the manufacturers has only driven more to learn kitbashing and become independent from RTR product. Since though there is less personal attatchment to specific eras, there will be growing demand for 19th and early 20th century steam and a shrinking demand for "transition era" steam I believe; exluding popular preserved engines like the Big Boy or the J-Class. There is going to be less and less of a market for people doing a transition era layout, outside of railfans who just like both steam and diesel; since many prototypical modelers might commit to either going "all steam" via chosing an earlier era or going "all diesel" often reflecting the railroads of their childhood memory (the boom of 1970's style diesels lately already seems to reflect that shift as Gen-X comes of age for disposable income). As for steam, I think shifting cultural memory will level the field to an extent, where the first choice for production will be preserved engines and classes, but less of a focus on classes that would otherwise populate a transition era layout since the demand of recreating that era will shrink. Also a case of looking abroad at what foreign markets can teach us, steam still remains a very broad and popular subject in OO scale in Britain; but I think we have to consider why that's the case... and the UK had four major private railroads followed by one nationalized system meaning there is some degree of standardization that followed, it would be like in the US if we only had to model UP, ATSF, C&O and PRR and then Amtrak. We can observe many similar things in other European nations with nationalized or monopoly railroads. But since the US market was always one of hundreds of regionally clustered railroads, it will always be doomed to be making specific steam for each line since there just isn't enough national draw. Sure you can find an LNER modeler in the former Great Western region in the UK, but you'd be pretty hard pressed to say find a large cluster of New York Central modelers in the American West or FEC modelers in Canada; geography, cultural memory, etc. means the North American market is divided into many sub-markets that are harder to track and always please. That is where 3D printing has begun to do wonders in smaller more prototypically focused batches of product (perhaps not surprising traction modeling seems to be having a resurgance as well, since car bodies can benefit from chassis made for diesels, but can now have 3D printed shells to expedite the construction process of custom models to a specific interurban line). I still believe there is a future for small steam models, and I sure hope the manufactuers get the hint that there is an audience for more steam models that aren't just Big Boy. There have been calls lately for more 0-4-0's and 0-6-0's to fill the switcher need for many steam era modelers for example. But I think in general the shrinking of the appeal of the transition era, and the generally wide berth of railroad experience in America means we will have to wait much longer to see all the steam engines we would like to come to market.
Lastspikemike On the OP's original point I remain convinced that manufacturers are sharing tooling in some organized way to exploit the market as fully as possible. Can't prove it but it sure seems likely. After all, the prototypes were all "the same" so each manufacturer's model has to be the same as the next guy's
On the OP's original point I remain convinced that manufacturers are sharing tooling in some organized way to exploit the market as fully as possible. Can't prove it but it sure seems likely. After all, the prototypes were all "the same" so each manufacturer's model has to be the same as the next guy's
No really the idea that there is behind the scenes tooling sharing going on is not absurd, but happens in some cases. One example I know of the top of my head is several OO9 models that PECO produces the tooling for, a box van wagon and an open top truck; that were shared with Bachmann for their Thomas and Friends line. The Bachmann models skip the air hoses and other finer details of the PECO models, but its pretty obvious when you compare them that they are the same toolilng with some minor variation in terms of parts used.
There are certainly more examples, and I know OO9 is a very niche scale currently so some shared tooling is even more expected.
BUT, to get back to the subject of steam engines. I think there is a growing demand for steam engine variety in certain modeling circles that might hopefully eventually swing the pendulum back to some variety. But the hardest thing to predict now, is since a large chunk of the modeling community has no experience with steam outside of what is preserved, what era is best to push into production? I know there is a thriving 19th Century modeling community being built up, that loathes that the only 4-4-0 they can get are the cheap Bachmann ones, but have had to make due with that for years. The demand and market is there, but neglect from the manufacturers has only driven more to learn kitbashing and become independent from RTR product.
Since though there is less personal attatchment to specific eras, there will be growing demand for 19th and early 20th century steam and a shrinking demand for "transition era" steam I believe; exluding popular preserved engines like the Big Boy or the J-Class. There is going to be less and less of a market for people doing a transition era layout, outside of railfans who just like both steam and diesel; since many prototypical modelers might commit to either going "all steam" via chosing an earlier era or going "all diesel" often reflecting the railroads of their childhood memory (the boom of 1970's style diesels lately already seems to reflect that shift as Gen-X comes of age for disposable income). As for steam, I think shifting cultural memory will level the field to an extent, where the first choice for production will be preserved engines and classes, but less of a focus on classes that would otherwise populate a transition era layout since the demand of recreating that era will shrink.
Also a case of looking abroad at what foreign markets can teach us, steam still remains a very broad and popular subject in OO scale in Britain; but I think we have to consider why that's the case... and the UK had four major private railroads followed by one nationalized system meaning there is some degree of standardization that followed, it would be like in the US if we only had to model UP, ATSF, C&O and PRR and then Amtrak. We can observe many similar things in other European nations with nationalized or monopoly railroads. But since the US market was always one of hundreds of regionally clustered railroads, it will always be doomed to be making specific steam for each line since there just isn't enough national draw. Sure you can find an LNER modeler in the former Great Western region in the UK, but you'd be pretty hard pressed to say find a large cluster of New York Central modelers in the American West or FEC modelers in Canada; geography, cultural memory, etc. means the North American market is divided into many sub-markets that are harder to track and always please. That is where 3D printing has begun to do wonders in smaller more prototypically focused batches of product (perhaps not surprising traction modeling seems to be having a resurgance as well, since car bodies can benefit from chassis made for diesels, but can now have 3D printed shells to expedite the construction process of custom models to a specific interurban line). I still believe there is a future for small steam models, and I sure hope the manufactuers get the hint that there is an audience for more steam models that aren't just Big Boy. There have been calls lately for more 0-4-0's and 0-6-0's to fill the switcher need for many steam era modelers for example. But I think in general the shrinking of the appeal of the transition era, and the generally wide berth of railroad experience in America means we will have to wait much longer to see all the steam engines we would like to come to market.
Alton Junction
Interesting thoughts, Sheldon and well put together.
The beauty of model railroading. So many choices.
To answer the OPs original question.
Manufacturers provide for the demand. It appears that the demand is for diesel locomotives.
Here in the U.K. every so often there are questionairres in railway magazines on "What would you like to see Manufacturers produce."
If there is a demand for a particular locomotive (be it steam or diesel) Manufacturers are listening.
Perhaps the steam enthusiasts in the U.S.A. should let the Manufacturers know of their grievances?
David
To the world you are someone. To someone you are the world
I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought
Wow, we really do have some philosophers out there who have this "people model the trains of their youth" thing all figured out.
Except for those of us who don't.
I have a friend my age (65) who models present day.
I know numerous 30 somethings who model the 50's.
Several of my closest modeling friends who are no longer with us modeled 1900-1920 eras.
I think all the philosophers are missing another factor, without regard for age, some people are interested in history, many are not.
I grew up in a model train/hobby family. My uncle owned a hobby shop when I was young. My father built me a 5'x18' layout when I was 10. By age 12 I was given total control.
When I was 13 I was working in a different hobby shop (my uncle had passed away), that was 1970. By 1977 I was managing the train department in a hobby shop.
At a young age I develped an interest in history, railroad history, US history, world history. Political/social development history, millitary history, all of it.
Today I restore old houses for a living, I have worked on some old cars in my time, I'm still studying the War between the States, WWII, etc.
Those who do not learn at least some basic sense of where they came from and how we got here, are doomed to make the mistakes of the past, and possibly lack direction for the future.
And those who think they can re-write the past are kidding themselves and are doing more damage then good.
But back to model trains.
When I worked in the hobby shop 50 years ago, lots of people modeled present day, or the "recent past", like the late 50's or 60's. That is like modeling 2010 today......
But lots also modeled the 30's or earlier......
The declining interest in steam locomotives is way more complex than "people model what they see" or "people model the trains of their youth".
One big factor is that today, there are way more eras to choose from than there were in 1970.
That alone waters down the number of potential buyers for any product in this hobby.
I grew up in the 60's and 70's, and that is the last era I would ever model.
And I confess, I could not even tell you what any of the diesels are that I see pulling the NS and CSX trains down the street from my house. I live very close to the Northeast Corridor just north of Baltimore. The ex B&O and PRR tracks follow each other to Philly side by side and in places are only 1000 ft apart. I see lots of trains. But I am not prompted to buy a models of them.
Still very happy in my little world set in 1954..... years before I was born......
Clearly everybody should model what interests them, for whatever reasons.
One more note, I don't buy models just because they are "famous" locos. 55 years at this and I have never owned a model of a Big Boy - never been remotely tempted. I do have some "famous" locos, because they happened to belong to the roads I do model, or their design fits the theme of my freelanced ATLANTIC CENTRAL.
Well I made some progress on the layout lighting today, but back to work tomorrow. Need to earn more train money, need a few more cases of flex track.
DigitalGriffinDiesel was largely standardized with simpler mold lines. Steam has complex working gears with a very large variety. Sadly more profit is in diesel.
Agree. Many steam model just have one road name and most steam engines are black. For one type of steam engine, I just buy one or two. Because they are not so easy to run, I use most of them as display.
One diesel model can have so many road names and so many color schemes. I often buy more. I probably have two dozens of GE evolution series. They are also easy to run. I have many diesels on my layout but just one steam.
To me, it is apparent that steams sell less in numbers but are more diffcult to make. Steams have a lot more details than diesels. These all drive up the cost.
I am glad that BLI still makes lots of steams and is doing well.
Jerry
Hello Tom--
I'm not trying to be argumentative, or to offend anyone in particular. Perhaps Accurail is indeed doing well with certain models--I don't know as I don't personally go there.
However, Tangent, ExactRail, Moloco, Rapido, Athearn Genesis, Walthers, Atlas, Intermountain and others seem to be selling a whole lot of 1960's and later freight cars and locos. Sure, I know Tangent and some of them have some earlier cars, especially tank cars, and MTH did great with their steam era reefers, but...
steamlocosonly...for now I've been back in this hobby for just about a year now. Is it just my perception or is there a lack of steam product from the big model producers. It seems like everyone manufactures the same models at about the same time. Is this done to be competitive or does it just happen by chance. I've noticed that just about every major manufacturer has produced either an F3 or F7 in the last year. There are also quite a few representations on SW 7s, Geeps, and FAs being marketed simultaneously. Any reasons behind this?
I've been back in this hobby for just about a year now. Is it just my perception or is there a lack of steam product from the big model producers. It seems like everyone manufactures the same models at about the same time.
Is this done to be competitive or does it just happen by chance. I've noticed that just about every major manufacturer has produced either an F3 or F7 in the last year. There are also quite a few representations on SW 7s, Geeps, and FAs being marketed simultaneously. Any reasons behind this?
Welcome to the world of batch production where no manufacturers or dealers keep products in stock for future customers.
You missed the heyday of steam variety when Bachmann and others made a long list of different steam locos and they were all available at the same time.
The real question is what steam models are you looking for?
If we list all the "modern production" HO steam models made since 1990, it is a pretty impressive list, but it still only scratches the surface of North American steam.
And, John and others may be right, the market for them may be getting soft. Used brass prices seem to be getting soft - except for the WM Pacific and B&O Ten Wheelers I want......
I know I have most of the ones I want, and I don't have much enthusiasm for $600 to $800 price tags. Guess I got spoiled in 1995.
But I Don't have a Big Boy, or a Challenger, or PRR anything, or a Canadian anything - I don't model those roads.
Yet somehow I managed to find 56 steam locomotive models for my layout?
Admittedly there are some duplicates, actually a lot of duplicates because that is how real railroads work - they have more than one of the same type loco in most cases.
So, shop around, "new old stock"/"new in the box" stuff is all over the place.
A few samples of my fleet:
Three of these, and two similar in C&O
Bult five of these, before the paint shop:
Let us know what you want to model?
About a dozen years ago I had a little discussion with the representative of BLI. This was before the announcement of the H10s PRR 2-8-0. I suggested the H8 and sub variants. Out of that boiler and mechanism, all it would take are some detail parts, another cylinder casting and two tender shells. They could get at least sixteen variants of the H class locomotive for lines East and west. The PRR had thousands of them. It was the most numerous locomotive on the roster. When the H10s came out, it sold out within weeks. Why they haven't produced more is beyond my understanding. To pass up a chance for at least 16 different variants of a popular locomotive when they already have the parts is just plain crazy. Anyone who models the road needs at least a few. Many went to the scrappers torch still hand fired, but a lot reciever stokers. There was even one that had a keystone number plate for passenger protection power and commuter service. Many were sold to other roads that lived on longer than their unsold brothers. One run of H10 was a complete waste of a perfect opportunity to increase our steam rosters.
Pete.
Lastspikemike tstage Lastspikemike After all, the prototypes were all "the same" so each manufacturer's model has to be the same as the next guy's Should be the same...but somehow they are different. Interersting theory... By "the same" I mean mass produced in one or two factories. Tooling up a model GP7 would be the same process and could use the same dies as the next guy. In fact I suspect they do. Steam locomotives were built one at a time even when hundreds of similar ones were made in the same factories. I'm pretty sure most parts were not interchangeable from one steam locomotive to another. One of EMD's great innovations was standardized "parts" including frames.
tstage Lastspikemike After all, the prototypes were all "the same" so each manufacturer's model has to be the same as the next guy's Should be the same...but somehow they are different. Interersting theory...
Lastspikemike After all, the prototypes were all "the same" so each manufacturer's model has to be the same as the next guy's
Should be the same...but somehow they are different. Interersting theory...
By "the same" I mean mass produced in one or two factories. Tooling up a model GP7 would be the same process and could use the same dies as the next guy. In fact I suspect they do.
Steam locomotives were built one at a time even when hundreds of similar ones were made in the same factories. I'm pretty sure most parts were not interchangeable from one steam locomotive to another.
One of EMD's great innovations was standardized "parts" including frames.
You would be wrong about that too. A specific model Delta trailing truck from Commonwealth Steel would surely interchange with the same truck on a different copy of the same locomotive and with one of the same specs on a different type of locomotive.
There were lots of "stock parts" made for steam locomotives by the builders and the vendors they used. And even new designs were developed around as many existing parts as possible.
up831 If you think about it, steam has also hit a demise in the model arena for the afore stated reasons. Cal scale and Kemtron offered hundreds of lost wax brass cast steam locomotive parts that are now difficult to find or at least are not readily available. Back in the 50s and 60s, there were lots of freelanced steam layouts with modified locomotives, which reflected actual practice with steam locos on real railroads. Back then, you could get a (very popular) United Ma & Pa 2-8-0, which begged to be modified for under $35. Well, times changed. Brass prices escalated. The demand for brass castings went down. Kemtron went away. Cal Scale got absorbed. But then, people started modifying BB diesels, which as stated before, are easier, just like the real thing. At least I hope this helps.
If you think about it, steam has also hit a demise in the model arena for the afore stated reasons. Cal scale and Kemtron offered hundreds of lost wax brass cast steam locomotive parts that are now difficult to find or at least are not readily available. Back in the 50s and 60s, there were lots of freelanced steam layouts with modified locomotives, which reflected actual practice with steam locos on real railroads. Back then, you could get a (very popular) United Ma & Pa 2-8-0, which begged to be modified for under $35.
Well, times changed. Brass prices escalated. The demand for brass castings went down. Kemtron went away. Cal Scale got absorbed. But then, people started modifying BB diesels, which as stated before, are easier, just like the real thing.
At least I hope this helps.
But not many people want to do this kind of modeling any more.....
PRR8259 Manufacturers first and foremost are going to produce what they believe will sell. We have reached a point where other than Big Boys and Challengers and big UP Northerns, and excepting BLI's steam line and certain fan trip steam engines, they don't think steam can sell well enough to justify the cost expenditures. The next one up will be C&O 1309 in HO...because it lives again. After many years of both kit and rtr steam locos, Bowser completely dropped their entire line of steam engines, many years back now. If Lee English actually thought there was any money to be made, they would make steam power. However, Canadian diesels are "in", and sell extremely well for them, as the Canadian market was very under-served all these years. Generally speaking, they are making what they can sell the most units of. There was no Genesis-level Alco RS-3 available, so they made it. Steam engines are the most expensive models, always require special care and feeding, and the generation that had any memory of them at all is rapidly leaving the scene. Surveys have shown that most people want to "model" or "collect" the trains they saw during the most impressionable time of their life, typically childhood or college. That means the 1960's to today's rolling stock is hot, and prior rolling stock is fading in its sales appeal. Respectfully submitted-- John
Manufacturers first and foremost are going to produce what they believe will sell.
We have reached a point where other than Big Boys and Challengers and big UP Northerns, and excepting BLI's steam line and certain fan trip steam engines, they don't think steam can sell well enough to justify the cost expenditures. The next one up will be C&O 1309 in HO...because it lives again.
After many years of both kit and rtr steam locos, Bowser completely dropped their entire line of steam engines, many years back now. If Lee English actually thought there was any money to be made, they would make steam power. However, Canadian diesels are "in", and sell extremely well for them, as the Canadian market was very under-served all these years. Generally speaking, they are making what they can sell the most units of. There was no Genesis-level Alco RS-3 available, so they made it.
Steam engines are the most expensive models, always require special care and feeding, and the generation that had any memory of them at all is rapidly leaving the scene.
Surveys have shown that most people want to "model" or "collect" the trains they saw during the most impressionable time of their life, typically childhood or college. That means the 1960's to today's rolling stock is hot, and prior rolling stock is fading in its sales appeal.
All very true John.
But I am glad I am not "most people", I'm only 65, I model 1954. If I was to pick another era, it would be 1910 or 1920.