Well, making the drilling jig for the Cook Car ladders is defying me! I can't get my supposedly good quality #77 and #78 drill bits to cut through to the bottom of the drilling guide and I don't understand why.
The drilling guide is very simple. It consists of a 1/16" x 1/32" bar about 3/4" long to which is soldered a 1/16" OD brass tube at a right angle. The second part of the jig is a board with a 1/16" wide x 3/32" deep slot, with the slot being marked for the proper spacing of the ladder rungs. To use the jig, you place two strips of 1/16" x 1/32" brass stock flat side down in the groove with a little CA between the two strips so that they can't move relative to each other, and then place the drilling guide in the slot above the brass strips. Then you drill the rung holes at the proper intervals according to the markings on the board.
My problem, as I stated above, is that my Chicago-Latrobe #77 drill bits refuse to drill the hole through the drilling guide. I have tried three different bits, with and without lubrication, and at various speeds. Nada!! I even tried a #78 bit thinking that the brass tube might have been slightly crushed which might have caused the #77 bits to bind, but when I removed (read - broke) the tube off of the drill guide, the #77 drill bit passed through it just fine.
All I'm trying to drill through is lead solder and brass. What am I doing wrong???? I have never had a problem like this before using the same drill bits.
Cheers!!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I gave Overmod's suggested method a try. I was able to cut a suitably sized groove in a piece of pine, and I was able to make up the drilling jig using a short piece of brass strip the same size as the ladder rails and a tiny piece of brass tube the same size as the drill bit to be used to drill the rung holes.
I ran into a problem when I was trying to drill the hole through the drilling jig. For reasons I don't understand the drill bit stopped cutting. I'll have to find a fresh bit but I decided to leave it for the night.
OvermodCut a square straight-sided groove just the width of the ladder upright stock into a block of hardwood, deep enough for three or more thicknesses of stock. Mark an index on the edge of the groove with the ring spacing. Solder or attach tubing with clearance diameter for your bit on a piece of the strip stock, then drill the stock through using the tube as a guide. This may be easier if you have a small drill press or equivalent. Make up your pairs of uprights and line them up in the groove so they align where the rungs are to go. Then put the stock with the tube in the slot, slide it longitudinally to each position, and drill through everything at once.
Hi Overmod,
Thank you very much for sharing that method. It sounds much easier than trying to do things freehand which is essentially what I was doing. Doctorwayne used a wooden jig as well but his had the curve at the top of the ladder built in. The Cook Car ladders are somewhat unusual in that each side has a slightly different profile in the curves at the top, but the proper alignment of the rungs could still be achieved in the curves using your method.
Cut a square straight-sided groove just the width of the ladder upright stock into a block of hardwood, deep enough for three or more thicknesses of stock. Mark an index on the edge of the groove with the ring spacing.
Solder or attach tubing with clearance diameter for your bit on a piece of the strip stock, then drill the stock through using the tube as a guide. This may be easier if you have a small drill press or equivalent.
Mske up your pairs of uprights and line them up in the groove so they align where the rungs are to go. Then put the stock with the tube in the slot, slide it longitudinally to each position, and drill through everything at once.
I spent some time tonight trying to build the end ladders for the Cook Car. I want to build them the same way that doctorwayne makes his caboose ladders because his ladders are so realistic.
To say that I didn't succeed would be a gross understatement!! I started with 1/16" x 1/32" brass strips for the ladder side rails. I was able to bend them into the proper shape without too much difficulty. Then I lightly soldered the two side rails together so that I could get the rung holes at exactly the same height on both sides. So far, so good.
Then I tried to drill the holes for the rungs. That's when the trouble started. I used a small center punch to make a tiny indentation for the drill bit, but I couldn't get the marks in the exact center of the rails. I tried to to compensate by angling the drill bit but that didn't accomplish anything.
I have asked doctorwayne if he would be willing to re-post his ladder making method on this thread.
hon30critter I do believe that, when modeling, sometimes there are situations where having things a bit oversized makes for a better appearance. Dave
I do believe that, when modeling, sometimes there are situations where having things a bit oversized makes for a better appearance.
I got the roof railing installed but, as you can see, I still have a lot of clean up to do. It took a little while to get the railing straight and level but I think it looks okay.
I also applied another coat of paint to the 'canvas' and it has made the weave less obvious. I still have to deal with a few bumps and uneven edges. I was able to sand some of the bumps off the roof before I applied the second coat without damaging the fabric. The second coat of paint should make the fabric pretty stable so I can be a little more agressive with the sanding.
Next will be the walkway and then I will have to figure out how to build the ladders.
Nothing to report for the last three days because I have been hobbled by my right knee. I can get downstairs without too much difficulty but going back upstairs is extremely painfull. Getting out of a chair ain't no fun neither. I managed to score an appointment with my knee surgeon for next Thursday because he had a cancellation, but it could be months before the operation can be performed. Things are still chronically backlogged as a result of Covid.
While I'm down here tonight I will see what I can do to create the roof walkway and handrails.
I think the roof looks fine. This kind of car did not get perfect repairs when needed. They were probably ready to slap another piece of ragged canvas on top of any problem, and no one cared if it looked OK.
York1 John
There's my excuse for the shoddy roofing job! It is a maintenance of way car that isn't getting the tlc that a proper paid service car would be getting.
One side of the lower roof will be hidden by a walkway and there be a handrail on the upper roof as well. Hopefully those will draw some attention away from the quality of the roofing job.
hon30critter Hi rrebell, You are absolutely correct. It is too thick and the edges aren't perfectly straight. I probably could have done a better job with plain tissue paper, but what's done is done. I personally like the look and I'm not going to start over again. I will say that the camera makes the seams look more pronounced then they are to the naked eye (at least to my eyes which aren't all that great). I do believe that, when modeling, sometimes there are situations where having things a bit oversized makes for a better appearance. For example, I don't like the look of a true to scale HO sand pile because you can't see the sand. I used fine real beach sand for my sanding house despite the fact that the individual grains are far too large. There is no question that it is a sand pile instead of a blob of whatever. Each to his own. Cheers!! Dave
Hi rrebell,
You are absolutely correct. It is too thick and the edges aren't perfectly straight. I probably could have done a better job with plain tissue paper, but what's done is done. I personally like the look and I'm not going to start over again. I will say that the camera makes the seams look more pronounced then they are to the naked eye (at least to my eyes which aren't all that great).
I do believe that, when modeling, sometimes there are situations where having things a bit oversized makes for a better appearance. For example, I don't like the look of a true to scale HO sand pile because you can't see the sand. I used fine real beach sand for my sanding house despite the fact that the individual grains are far too large. There is no question that it is a sand pile instead of a blob of whatever.
Each to his own.
The thing to cut this kind of fabric is a rotary cutter. Carefully use pins on a self-healing board to pull the weave of the fabric piece square, not under excessive tension, and then run the cutter along a straightedge that is holding the 'good' side down.
I go for overkill and lap the cutting edge of the wheel with that 3M film to make it as keen and smooth an edge as possible, but that might just be OCD.
I do think that roof is too heavy to represent typical tarred canvas... but it would be credible (I think) for MOW equipment to have the roof done like a building with tarpaper... which is what that looks like to me.
Hi Bear,
That is a very nice flatcar load! It took me a minute to realize that it was a model. I had to zoom into it to see the frayed edges you referred to.
Today I took a major step forward towards getting back to work on my layout. I ordered new LED lighting for the garage. The existing fluorescent fixtures are over 30 years old and only a few of them still worked. Changing the tubes didn't help because the ballasts are shot.
The lights get installed tomorrow morning.
hon30critterI do believe that, when modeling, sometimes there are situations where having things a bit oversized makes for a better appearance
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
Looks way to thick and it has jagged edges in places but if you are happy with it, it is all that matters.
I have finished the installation of the fabric roof and painted it. The seams are not too pronounced although they are larger than scale. Personally, I think the roof looks pretty good. Click on the image to get a better view.
There are a few small bumps that I think were caused by dried glue debris. I will give those spots a light sanding and then paint the roof again after I have painted the rest of the car.
I have glued on the first few chiffon fabric roofing pieces and they seem to have worked out well. I ended up using the yellow carpenter's glue because the canopy cement wouldn't hold the concave areas at the ends of the roof down when the glue was wet. I did manage to mess up my measurements for what length the pieces should have been, but I will blame that on the procurement guys. I think it just adds interest. Once the center strip is on, the not-so-straight edges hopefully won't show too much. If I was doing it again I would make the outer pieces wide enough to meet in the center.
This a close up shot of the fabric. I hope you can see the weave. The individual threads are still quite visible to the naked eye. If you double click the image you can see the weave clearly. I think they will look better once they are painted:
Hi John,
Thank you for your comment. I am having a lot of fun doing the thread. The number of views amazes me! I appreciate the amount of interest and I certainly hope that I am encouraging others to give scratchbuilding a try.
Dave,
I think one of the greatest benefits from this thread is the regular inclusion of a new issue, ideas for its resolution, the testing of those ideas, and the results of each. Being exposed to that progression really stimulates the creativity of others. The failures along the way are just as instructive as the winners. We all appreciate your willingness to share the nitty-gritty.
Attuvian John
Here is an update on the chiffon fabric process. I had some failures at first but then I figured things out, I think.
My first attempt to cut the fabric using scissors didn't work. I found it impossible to get evenly spaced straight lines. Then I put the fabric down on my cutting mat and tried to use an exacto knife with a steel ruler. Unfortunately the blade snagged the fabric and pulled the weave apart. Second failure!
For the third attempt I knew I had to come up with some means of holding the fabric steady so I decided to try some masking tape. The tape worked perfectly! I covered the entire piece and stuck it to my cutting board, drew my cut lines on it and then used my exacto knife with a fresh blade. The exacto blade cut cleanly through the tape and the fabric so I was able to make a bunch of strips all the same size.
The next step was to separate the fabric from the masking tape. My first attempt was another disaster because the weave came apart along the edges rendering the strips useless. I needed something to glue the threads together.
That's when another light came on (that's two in one night folks!). decided to use Testors Dulcote to stick the threads together and it worked! There was an added bonus in that the Dulcote softened the adhesive on the masking tape so the fabric strips lifted off very easily and stayed together.
My final test was to glue two strips to a roughed up piece of styrene. For one I used canopy cement and for the other I used yellow carpenter's glue. They both stuck well but the carpenter's glue held much more firmly. It was also easier to work with because the strip did not move around as it was being pressed into place but the strip could still be adjusted. The Canopy cement allowed for a lot more adjustment which might be a desirable trait.
I learned one lesson. That is that everything has to be perfectly clean including my fingers. Any specs of dust that are picked up will stay stuck to the fabric which messes up the appearance.
I had thought of using tissue paper but I'm going to give the chiffon fabric a try first. It is as thin as tissue paper, and it is very strong (I can't tear it) so I should be able to smooth it out without it ripping.
I'm going to do some experimenting with various means of gluing it down. I need to find something that is thin enough that it won't fill in the holes in the fabric but will also not dry too fast, or can at least be rehydrated with water. I think I will try carpenter's glue first. The surface is well sanded so the glue should stick to the styrene fairly well.
I like your suggestion of only doing a bit at a time. I have a very bad habit of not letting things dry thoroughly before taking the next step.
Air brushing the colour coat is also an excellent idea. I should be able to avoid filling in the weave by using several light coats.
Thanks for your suggestions.
When all else fails, go back to the classic. You pull apart kleenex so you have very thin sheets (Costco brand is two ply and will work). Then you cut the tissue into proto size strips and paint the roof area and and use the paint as glue for the tissue, you can smooth it a bit more once applied but putting it on without wrinkeles can be tricky. One mistake people have is trying to do too much at once, sometimes you need to let an area dry before adding the next strip. Once all done you can paint the roof with a thin coat of paint (you may want to air brush it).
FWIW, the specialized iron works between 100C and 150C depending on what surface the Solartex is being applied to. However, none of that matters anymore because I have decided to not use the Solartex fabric. The chiffon fabric will be much easier to work with.
I managed to get all of the contact cement residue off of the roof so it looks respectable again. I used Goo Gone to soften the glue and then I used a square tipped x-acto blade to scrape most of it away. Then I used some coarse sandpaper to remove what was left, followed by a final sanding with fine sandpaper.
I also replaced the edges that I had applied to extend the sides of the roof past the walls. I had originally used 0.020" x 0.040" styrene strip but that proved to be too fragile. It didn't help that I hadn't sanded the paint off of the edges of the roof so the bond was weak to begin with. I dutifully sanded the edges clean and used 0.030" x 0.060" strip instead. I'm just waiting for the Tamiya putty that I used to hide the joints between the roof and the strips to dry and then I can sand everything smooth.
What do you suggest that I use to glue down the chiffon fabric? I'm obviously not going to try contact cement again. Would diluted carpenter's glue work? Or canopy cement? The surface is still pretty rough from the sanding so I think that most glues will adhere to the styrene quite well.
Thanks for the input.
What is the temperature (or range of temperatures) this special thermometer is supposed to show as "correct" for Solartex installation? And why wouldn't one of those inexpensive IR 'spot' thermometers clamped in a vise or 'third hand' give you a reading as you work?
Some of the heat guns used for solder reflow are (reasonably) accurately temperature adjustable, and would be easier to use on a complex-curved surface like a vestibule roof.
You can thin contact cements, or rubber cements like Pliobond or the old Goo, so that the layers on the 'mating' surfaces are very thin. I do not know if that will be good enough to hold the edges around corners, though.
Hi John and Brent,
I have the manufacturer's instructions for installing the Solartex fabric. They call for the use of a special low temperature heating iron to be used with a special 'covering thermometer' (which I don't have and I don't want to buy either). I tried to heat the fabric with a small hot air gun but I couldn't get the glue to become sticky at all. In any case, the fabric with the glue backing is too thick to settle in properly around the square edges.
I have a piece of a chiffon table runner which has a very fine weave and is extremely thin. Once I get the residual contact cement off of the roof I will give the chiffon a try.
For my BD my sweetie gave me a gift certificate to a local big box sporting goods store. I wanted to get some light shorts and she did me the favor of letting me choose. Anyway, what I found is made out of one of the more recent microfiber fabrics. Very thin, supple, and with an unusually fine weave. Have you yet hustled off to a fabric store to see what they've got on hand of this stuff? I'm thinking that, in the right color, it would be the best I've yet come across for weather curtains for old steamer cabs.
Attuvian1 John
Dave, sorry to hear about the issues you are having with the product you are using. Back when I was building R/C planes it was tissue paper and dope and I was always really pleased with the results.
There are a lot of new products on the market now that I have never heard of, may I suggest you look for some Youtube videos that show how to install the particular product you are using?
One thing I notice when looking at old photos of these kinds of roofs on old passenger cars is there are a lot of patches. I think they used some sort of felt, canvas, and pitch (Ed would know) which required a lot of ongoing repair. Maybe a less-than-perfect look for your roof might be more perfect.
Brent
It's not the age honey, it's the mileage.
OvermodHeat-gun it on low while holding the strip straight out parallel to the clerestory roof, then burnishing it down from top to edge along the reverse curve?
Let me begin by saying that the first attempts to install the fabric have been disasterous! I first attempted to use canopy cement to glue the fabric strips in place. Unfortunately the bond wasn't strong enough so as soon as I started to handle the shell the edges of the fabric frayed. Obviously the edges of the fabric will have to be very well attached or the roof will get messed up very quickly just with normal handling.
For the second attempt I used contact cement. I ran into two fatal problems. First, I couldn't get a smooth even coat of cement on both surfaces. The cement dried before I could brush out any ridges or blobs. Those blobs showed up very clearly when the fabric was applied and they looked hideous.
The second problem was that I couldn't get the fabric to stick to the edges of the roof. The prototype roofs were wrapped over the edges of the roof structure and nailed in place. The Solartex fabric couldn't be bent at a sharp enough angle for it to stay in place along the edges. Even if I had been able to get the required bend, it was obvious that normal handling would destroy the edges of the roof fabric pretty quickly.
So, now I am stuck with a fairly ugly roof structure with bits of contact cement and fabric residue all over it. I'm going to put this on the back burner for a few days until I can figure out a solution. The first thing I need to do is find some contact cement remover that hopefully won't destroy the styrene. Any suggestions?
In the interim I've got a couple of new speakers to install in the pusher locomotives. That will keep me busy for a couple of days.
Heat-gun it on low while holding the strip straight out parallel to the clerestory roof, then burnishing it down from top to edge along the reverse curve?