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Scratchbuilding a side discharge rotary snow plow

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Posted by hon30critter on Wednesday, March 29, 2023 1:33 AM

Sorry for the silence. I had a hard time deciding what to do next. As I already mentioned, I decided to change speakers in the tender of the locomotive that will play the train sounds. I had the tender nicely set up with a couple of iphone speakers which were okay but still a bit tinny. I want to try the speakers that Brent suggested from Scale Sound Systems but I can't order them until next week (they are on vacation). 

https://www.scalesoundsystems.com/

That meant tearing the tender to bits so it now looks rather pathetic. I have to put that aside until I get the speakers.

I have another tender for the other pusher locomotive which basically just needs paint and a coal load, but I'm going to wait until both tenders are ready for paint before proceeding with the second tender.

I have to go back to the sound file and tweak it a bit. There is a slight pause at one point as the sound file plays so I have to eliminate that.

While I am waiting for the new speakers I will work on the spare water tanker. I have already modified the tank itself by taking off the dome and installing a plate which is level with the top of the tank. I still have to do the platforms, railings, and the four rather large boxes that sit below the side platforms. I'm not sure what purpose they serve but I suspect there is a pump and some hose stored in them.

Cheers!!

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by hon30critter on Sunday, April 2, 2023 2:39 AM

I have made a bit of progress on the extra water car. The platform was a bit tricky to fit to the dome but it came out okay:

This is what the Cumbres and Toltec water looks like:

Any idea what the boxes on the sides are for? There appears to be some piping coming out of the one on the right.

Cheers!!

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by mbinsewi on Sunday, April 2, 2023 8:06 AM

I don't know Dave, maybe pumps and/or a heater?  

Just guessing, a quick search didn't turn up anything.

Mike.

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Posted by BATMAN on Sunday, April 2, 2023 2:54 PM

hon30critter
Any idea what the boxes on the sides are for? There appears to be some piping coming out of the one on the right.

I would guess fire hoses and/or other equipment storage.

I was doing some reading and came across some photos that had weather curtains and noticed these large ones that would get pulled over the coal load in the tender. They would pull the curtain over the tender when the plows were operating to keep the snow from the plow off the coal. So you have not finished yet Dave, let me see what else I can find for you to do.Smile, Wink & GrinLaugh

Brent

"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."

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Posted by "JaBear" on Sunday, April 2, 2023 3:32 PM
Gidday Dave, you, Mike and Brent can be happy with your educated guesses.
 
 
Cheers, the Bear.Smile

"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."

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Posted by mbinsewi on Monday, April 3, 2023 6:56 AM

I tried to respond earlier, got the "Forbidden" blank page.  Confused

Try this again?

Mike.

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, April 3, 2023 9:58 AM

Use the old Civil War Modelers approach of using used teabag paper soaked in dull varnish to simulate heavy canvas...

Wouldn't it be common even in winter to be refilling periodically from 'lineside' streams or bodies of water, with appropriate strainer-equipped hoses and pumps?

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Posted by hon30critter on Monday, April 3, 2023 11:27 AM

Hi Bear,

Once again your research has proved to be invaluable! Thank you very much for the link to the pictures and information.

It looks like I should do a bit of thinking before completing the auxilliary water car. The text above your picture of the tank car explains that the tanker only came into use in the 1950s. Prior to that they used extra tenders. I'll have to decide if I want to run the train as a historical artifact (which would be in keeping with the era of my layout), or model it as original. I'm tending towards modelling it as a historical restoration simply because I have the tank car started and I don't have any decent separate tenders.

The article also mentions an extra coal gondola which would be easy to do. That would bring the whole train up to seven or eight cars.

Cheers!!

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by hon30critter on Monday, April 3, 2023 11:35 AM

Overmod
Use the old Civil War Modelers approach of using used teabag paper soaked in dull varnish to simulate heavy canvas...

Hi Overmod,

That's an interesting idea. Thanks.

Overmod
Wouldn't it be common even in winter to be refilling periodically from 'lineside' streams or bodies of water, with appropriate strainer-equipped hoses and pumps?

I would suspect that the snow would have been too deep to allow that to be done on a regular basis. Also, in the entire 1:12:00 hour video, I only saw two bridges that would suggest that there is water close by. The grades beside the track on the rest of the video are fairly steep. Wading through waist deep snow just to get to the water car would be hard enough IMHO.

Cheers!!

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by hon30critter on Monday, April 3, 2023 11:40 AM

BATMAN
I was doing some reading and came across some photos that had weather curtains and noticed these large ones that would get pulled over the coal load in the tender. They would pull the curtain over the tender when the plows were operating to keep the snow from the plow off the coal. So you have not finished yet Dave, let me see what else I can find for you to do

Hi Brent,

I don't need to add a cover to the coal load in the tender because I have already added a roof which opens. However, if I add a gondola for extra coal, covering that would add some visual interest.

Cheers!!

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by BATMAN on Monday, April 3, 2023 2:05 PM

hon30critter
I don't need to add a cover to the coal load in the tender because I have already added a roof which opens.

I was thinking more for the loco's, those plows throw up a lot of snow that can go a long way back over the pushers.

Buy the way if you want to spend even more moneyLaugh Rapido Ten-Wheelers will be here soon. CP engines with sound and lights. They would look good behind your plow.Whistling$$$$

https://rapidotrains.com/ho-scale/steam-locomotive/cpr-d10.html 

Brent

"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."

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Posted by hon30critter on Monday, April 3, 2023 11:15 PM

BATMAN
I was thinking more for the loco's, those plows throw up a lot of snow that can go a long way back over the pushers.

Hi Brent,

You make a good point. I think I will follow your suggestion.

I found a piece of lens cleaning cloth in the car that has the right beige colour, but it might be a bit too thick and fuzzy to look like canvas. I will experiment with it.

Bear's detail pictures of the water tanker have given me a lot of information to work with. I made the platform that surrounds the cut down dome out of styrene but I think I will make the rest of the details like the platforms over the trucks and the hand rails out of brass strips and angles, and phosphor bronze wire. They will be much sturdier.

I'm going to have a look on line to see what other fabrics I can find. Overmod suggested using tea bag paper to make the curtains, but I am a bit leary about how long they would last so I'm going to look for other options.

Cheers!!

Dave

Cheers!!

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by Attuvian1 on Tuesday, April 4, 2023 12:05 AM

hon30critter

I found a piece of lens cleaning cloth in the car that has the right beige colour, but it might be a bit too thick and fuzzy to look like canvas. I will experiment with it.

I'm going to have a look on line to see what other fabrics I can find. Overmod suggested using tea bag paper to make the curtains, but I am a bit leary about how long they would last so I'm going to look for other options.

Dave

 
Dave,
 
I'll look forward to hearing what you can come up with for material.  I know others have modeled tarps and particularly the weather "curtains" that were once seen on steamers operating in not-so-tropical northern climes.  Too thick or too stiff just doesn't hang or lay properly.  Depending on what the material is, color can likely be adjusted accordingly.
 
In addition to your 'Net search, perhaps other followers of this string (it's now more like a hawser Laugh) can pony up suggestions based on their own scratch-builds.  A trip to a well-stocked fabric store might also be in order.  Just tell 'em you need only about a hundredth of a square yard.  (And get their reaction on video, please. Smile, Wink & Grin)  
 
Attuvian John
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Posted by hon30critter on Tuesday, April 4, 2023 1:53 AM

Attuvian1
I'll look forward to hearing what you can come up with for material. 

Hi John,

I found a couple of potentially suitable materials on Amazon. I haven't bit the bullet and ordered them yet, but I will. What the heck, it's only money.

Cheers!!

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by PM Railfan on Wednesday, April 5, 2023 1:23 AM

I was on the electronic sewer looking for something totally different, and came across this photo. Thought you might be interested. You may, or may not have seen it.

 

Clear Ahead!

Douglas

 

 

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Posted by hon30critter on Wednesday, April 5, 2023 2:53 AM

PM Railfan
I was on the electronic sewer looking for something totally different, and came across this photo. Thought you might be interested. You may, or may not have seen it.

Hi Douglas,

I have seen pictures of that plow. It is a very interesting piece of rolling stock! I think that it would be a perfect use of 3D printing if one were to make a model of it. I can't imagine scratchbuilding the plow blade!

Thanks,

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by PM Railfan on Wednesday, April 5, 2023 6:13 AM

Dave)

Im with you on the mechanics of making that screw work - holy blueprints Batman!

It is interesting I'll grant you!

 

Clear Ahead!

Douglas

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Posted by hon30critter on Thursday, April 6, 2023 3:35 AM

After studying the pictures of the Cumbres and Toltec auxilliary water car I realized that the tanker that I had chosen required a lot more kitbashing than I had originally thought. I have had to make several modifications.

First, I had to cut the dome down so the top was only a few inches above the tank body.

Then I realized that the trucks needed to be moved closer to the middle of the car.

My next revelation was that the original frame rails were far too light in terms of structure. A normal tank car would never be subjected to the sort of force that the plow water car had to withstand because the plow water car was positioned between the plow and the pusher locomotives. All of the force needed to move the plow was transferred through the frame of the water car, so the frame rails had to be much more substantial. Here is the tank with the relocated bolsters and the partially finished heavier frame rails. Please forgive the somewhat askew rivet lines:

Once I get the frame sorted out my next task will be to build the side platforms and stirrups/ladders. I'm going to make them out of brass. They would be too clumsey looking and too delicate if I made them out of styrene.

Stay tuned!

Cheers!!

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by hon30critter on Thursday, April 6, 2023 4:04 AM

I have to say thanks to TF for posting the video of the Cumbres and Toltec train in the Diner. While I was watching it I realized that the locomotive sported a rather substantial snow plow instead of a normal pilot. I will certainly have to add a plow blade to at least one of my pusher engines. I will have to decide whether to make it out of brass or styrene. Brass poses the risk of shorting out the track but it is much easier to form the curves. I can always glue a piece of styrene to the bottom of the blade to prevent the shorts.

Thanks TF,

Cheers!!

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, April 6, 2023 10:51 AM

Something rumbling around in the back of my mind about this plow crystallized when you mentioned having plow blades on the pusher engines.

You'll want an operable flanger somewhere in this consist, especially if it's working with snow so packed that the chunks thrown by the impeller are difficult to break up with shovels...

The most probable place for that MIGHT be on the plow structure somewhere.  That's the place with the 'best' view of the track and the places that flangeway cutters would have to be dropped and lifted.  If not, a flanger ought to be somewhere in the pushing consist; a separate train with a flanger capability would be run after the plow train but that wouldn't help if a low spot or crossing were iced up...

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Posted by hon30critter on Thursday, April 6, 2023 10:04 PM

Overmod
You'll want an operable flanger somewhere in this consist, especially if it's working with snow so packed that the chunks thrown by the impeller are difficult to break up with shovels...

Hi Overmod,

I had thought about that. I have a couple of flangers that might be suitable:

This one could be awkward to run because the blades are quite a bit wider than the tracks:

This one could double as a tool car:

The pictures of the original plow don't show a flanger blade on the plow itself, but there is nothing to prevent me from adding one.

Cheers!!

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by Track fiddler on Friday, April 7, 2023 5:49 AM

Good morning

hon30critter

I have to say thanks to TF for posting the video of the Cumbres and Toltec train in the Diner. While I was watching it I realized that the locomotive sported a rather substantial snow plow instead of a normal pilot. I will certainly have to add a plow blade to at least one of my pusher engines. I will have to decide whether to make it out of brass or styrene. Brass poses the risk of shorting out the track but it is much easier to form the curves. I can always glue a piece of styrene to the bottom of the blade to prevent the shorts.

Thanks TF,

Cheers!!

Dave

Oh for sure Dave.  I'd have to be honest and not take too much credit for displaying that steamer, sporting that permanently fixed plow.  Had to go back an take a look-see.

She does look rather nice on there.  I'd like to see a build like that, as it may very well be a fine accessory to your plow project you've done such an excellent job onSmile

 

TF

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, April 7, 2023 1:01 PM

Something I did not notice until I thought about flangers: look at the difference between the front and rear truck fabrication in the prototype pictures.  (I'll bet Ed has illustrations of exactly what that lead truck is...)

There is no permitted lateral between the sideframe and bolster that I can see (although the rear truck has normal) so I suspect there is some arrangement inside what may be a large, fixed rectangular bolster... with the truck itself made like a heavy Ohio H-framed tender truck without the long semielliptical loading over the axleboxes.  Side frames that heavy might have cutters aligned closely with minimum flangeway dimensions close to the wheels...

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Posted by hon30critter on Friday, April 7, 2023 10:10 PM

Overmod
There is no permitted lateral between the sideframe and bolster that I can see (although the rear truck has normal) so I suspect there is some arrangement inside what may be a large, fixed rectangular bolster... with the truck itself made like a heavy Ohio H-framed tender truck without the long semielliptical loading over the axleboxes.

Hi Overmod,

I'm sorry but I don't understand some of the terminology that you are using. Perhaps you could show me what picture(s) you are looking at, either of the plow itself or of other examples of a similar design? The pictures I have of the plow don't show a lot of detail on the trucks.

Thanks,

Dave

 

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by "JaBear" on Saturday, April 8, 2023 12:07 AM
Gidday Dave, I have to agree that most photos are lacking in the detail level regarding trucks and bolsters, but this Jim Sands photo on this site…
…clearly shows “a large, fixed rectangular bolster” which would virtually eliminate any lateral/rocking movement.
 
 Bolster by Bear, on Flickr
Click on photo to enlarge.
 
Cheers, the Bear.Smile

"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."

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Posted by gmpullman on Saturday, April 8, 2023 12:23 AM

I don't know if it will help:

 Flanger by Edmund, on Flickr

With the ice cutters and flanger blade affixed to the truck itself there is very little pitch allowed in the somewhat rigid structure. I see side bearing rollers outboard of the 'bolster' area.

Of course the flanger blade can be raised and lowered and it looks as if the ice cutters pivot outward during a reverse move.

Cheers, Ed

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, April 8, 2023 4:49 PM

I'm going by the first picture of the Ideal plow you provided in starting this thread: i can clearly see the difference between the bolster construction in the front and rear trucks, even though some of the members of the archbar construction in the front truck are unclear (snow packed in 'em?) so I can't be completely sure that the construction is heavier.

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Posted by "JaBear" on Saturday, April 8, 2023 11:04 PM
I’ve tried to make the trucks from the original photo in this thread clearer to see without them becoming a pixelated blob.
 
Working on the premise that “I’d rather look a fool than open my mouth and prove it”, the only comment that I’m prepared to make is that the front truck has had its springs removed whereas the rear truck still retains its springs. This is, of course, obvious, but I only noticed it when prompted by Overmod to have another look! Bang HeadBang Head
 
 
Cheers, the Bear.Embarrassed

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Posted by hon30critter on Saturday, April 8, 2023 11:09 PM

Overmod
I'm going by the first picture of the Ideal plow you provided in starting this thread: i can clearly see the difference between the bolster construction in the front and rear trucks,

Hi Overmod,

Okay, now I understand what you are referring to. I had noticed the difference between the trucks but I had totally forgotten all about it.

Hi Bear,

Thanks for the detailed picture of the flanger. I can clearly see the difference in the bolsters.

Hi Ed,

Thanks for the picture of the rotary plow truck. I doubt that there is a commercially available version but it wouldn't be too difficult to scratchbuild.

I'm going to finish the water car first, and then I might have a go at building a more specialized front truck for the plow. I might leave the ice cutter blades off because of the risk of them fouling the turnouts. They would have to be the same width as the wheel flanges, and they wouldn't normally be visible under the front of the stationary plow blade anyhow. However, the flanger blade shown in Ed's illustration should be relatively easy to model and it would show quite nicely.

Thanks for your help guys!!

At this rate we might just get to 100,000 views before tis thing is done!

Cheers!!

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by hon30critter on Saturday, April 8, 2023 11:27 PM

The water car is up on its wheels and the couplers are mounted. I haven't got the frame at quite the right height because it sits slightly lower than the wheel flanges. It should be above the flanges, but there is still plenty of room for the trucks to pivot so I'm not going to worry about it for now. If it starts to bug me then I will tear it apart and raise the frame. The couplers are at the right height now.

Cheers!!

Dave

Edit:

I decided that I wasn't happy with the low frame position on the water car so I cut out the glued in coupler boxes and added about 3/32nds to the bottom of the bolsters. Now the trucks ride at the right height relative to the frame. I am in the process of lowering the couplers but that has proven to be easy to do as well. This time they will be screwed in. Pictures to follow.

Also, I have studied Ed's picture of the rigid front plow truck and I'm going to take a stab at it. I think I will attempt to include the ice cutter blades. They can always be removed if they fowl the turnouts.

Cheers!!

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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