I have decided to change how I am going to handle the sound for the train. My original plan was to put the plow train recording on one of the pusher locomotives' decoders. I realized tonight that doesn't make a lot of sense.
The plow train recording will include the sound of the rotary plow plus the two pusher locomotives all in one sound file. There will be separate sound files for the whistles and wheel slip (if I can figure out how). If I replace the sound files on one of the locomotives it will mean that locomotive is dedicated to running with the plow. If I put a sound decoder into the plow itself then the two locomotives can retain their 4-6-0 sounds so they can run independently. When I consist them with the plow I will turn off their sounds and turn on the decoder in the plow. This will mean that there will be three LokSound 5 decoders in the train, but what the heck, it's only money.
I have ordered a LokSound 5 Micro because there isn't enough space in the plow for a regular decoder. I may have to leave the LokPilot silent decoder in place because with my luck removing it would probably damage one of the blade enclosures. Bit of a waste. What did I say about money?
I am making progress on creating the sound files. The Audacity software is pretty easy to use. One problem with the YouTube recording is that parts of it have a very high pitched squeal so I have to figure out how to filter that out. The squeal is part of the sounds that the plow is making but it will get pretty annoying if I leave it in.
Cheers!!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I got the LokPilot decoder out of the plow. It proved to be fairly easy. All I did was cut the clear plastic cover that encloses the decoder and the decoder popped right out. Unfortunately I had to unsolder all of the leads from the decoder pads so that there would be enough wire to hook up the new decoder. Soldering a new set of wires on to the LokPilot will be a challenge. I'll have to wait until my hands are really steady. I also have to replace the clear cover. I have some black heat shrink tubing that will fit, but I might splurge on some clear stuff.
I found space for two sugar cube speakers with reasonably large enclosures. I removed an air tank that couldn't be seen anyhow to make room. There is plenty of space for a full sized LokSound 5 decoder so I will save the micro decoder for another project.
The speakers won't be visible when the shell is installed. The speaker enclosures appear to be different sizes but they aren't. I had to shim the one in the foreground up to clear some wires:
Wow, Dave! Stereo!! (Does that date us or what?)
John
I'm going to install the decoder tonight and then see if I can transfer my sound files from Audacity to the Lokprogrammer and then to the decoder. Wish me luck!
I got the decoder installed in the plow. It turned out that I had to use the LokSound 5 Micro decoder because there wasn't enough space to fit a standard size decoder into. The Micro dropped into place quite nicely in front of the right side speaker.
The wiring is a bit of a mess because I had to connect the new decoder to the original wires so there are a bunch of connections that wouldn't normally be there. It will all be hidden in any case so no worries. Getting wiring to look clean and neat is not one of my fortes:
I managed to find the detailed Lokprogrammer manual finally. I have some serious studying to do in order to understand the process of getting my own sound file into the plow. I think the learning curve will be rather steep!
Well, I have spent several hours studying the Lokprogrammer manual but I can't find the information that I need. The manual does a great job of explaining all of the intricacies of how to set the motor control and how to get the sounds to match the operation of the locomotive, but it doesn't fully explain how to get one simple loop of recorded sound into the Lokprogrammer.
All I want the decoder in the plow to do is run the motor, turn on the lights, and play the sound of the Cumbres and Toltec rotary plow train in operation. I don't need whistle sounds (those are already in the recording) or acceleration curves or any of the rest of the sound or motor functions.
I have posted a request for more help on the Lokprogrammer forum. Hopefully my friend, Peter, who has already been so helpful, can bail me out.
You may have to build a 'project' with the Audacity-captured loop as one of the sound files; I don't think you can 'edit' an existing project to paste in a new file. I do not know whether you can 'unpack' one of the existing projects to get all the files in native form and then 'recompile' with your new file included.
Clearly to me, there are files that 'repeat' a fixed length, for example those for diesel prime mover sound. You'd substitute your new sound, trimmed to compatible length, in place of an existing sound in one of those 'slots' in the unpacked sound file... but I think you'd still have to compress and protocol-translate your sound file into whatever format the project puts into the decoder storage.
As I remember, TCS was working on a 'computer-programmable' API for some of its decoders -- you might want to see if they have advice for you about how to do what you want. Now that you have the other decoder in. And wired. Ahem.
I am making painfully slow progress regarding getting the snowplow train sound tracks into a decoder, but at least I am making progress.
I have managed to get the sound files into the proper wav. formats, and I have been able to create a sound file that plays about 60 seconds of sound in a loop. The Lokprogrammer requires that there be three components in a sound file. There has to be an 'Init' (Initial) sound file, a 'Loop' sound file, and an 'Exit' sound file. I have been able to put the three components into a loop which sounds pretty good, but unfortunately there is a problem with the transistion from the first sound file to the second. I'm getting a short sound that sounds almost like machine gun fire and I haven't been able to eliminate it just yet. I'm sure I will figure that out fairly soon.
Stay tuned!
I'm sorry to report that I am one extremely frustrated decoder programmer this morning!
Everything was going great, that is until it wasn't. I had successfully converted a number of sound files into the required wav. format, and I had managed to create a sound file in the Lokprogrammer program which worked, but there was a rather obvious glitch in it which I have spent several hours trying to correct without success. I needed to replace some of the sound files, and I created the replacement files successfully, but that's when things went south (no insult intended Kevin!). The replacement sound files refuse to show up in the right place in the Lokprogrammer program.
I know that there is some simple step in the process that I can't figure out despite my trying for hours. You all know the definition for computer stupidity - that is repeatedly doing the same thing over and over hoping for a different outcome.
Stay tuned, but please be patient.
I finally figured out what I was doing wrong when I was trying to save the sound files. I was clicking on 'Save' when I should have been clicking on 'Export'. It only took me about six hours to figure that out.
I still have the problem of the short burst of odd sounds at the beginning of the sound loop. I have tried several possible solutions but nothing has worked.
Just to keep things interesting I have decided to again change my approach regarding which sounds each of the locomotives and the plow will play. I loaded the sound of a 4-6-0 into the plow for test purposes, and I discovered that the sounds actually match the plow pretty well. The chuff rate is a pretty good match for the speed of the blades, and the whistle sounds just like the Cumbres and Toltec plow. I will put the sound of the whole train into one of the locomotives.
Part of my decision was based on the lack of volume from the rotary plow in the YouTube videos. Most of the time the recordings were taken closer to the pusher engines than the plow so the plow chuffs can barely be heard. With the revised plan, the plow will be able to compete with the locomotives.
I'l play a video of the plow train as soon as I have all the sounds sorted out. That still may be a few days down the road.
Hi folks,
The sound project continues to be a challenge. I have managed to load the recording of the rotary plow train onto one of the pusher locomotives, but I'm not happy with the sound quality. The sound is very 'tinney'. I am in the process of trying to figure out how to adjust the bass and treble balance in order to give the sound file a deeper 'throat'.
Thank you for your continued interest and for your patience while I stumble through the process.
Hey, Dave, I suppose that you can be grateful that we're all not there on site - hovering over your shoulder and huckstering the process!!
Attuvian1Hey, Dave, I suppose that you can be grateful that we're all not there on site - hovering over your shoulder and huckstering the process!!
Hi John,
There have been more than a few occassiona where having someone leaning over my shoulder offering advice might have saved me a whole lot of grief!!
Here is the snow plow train sound track installed in one of the 4-6-0 pushers. You are listening to the sound of two pusher engines plus the sound of the plow itself. The plow sound is rather weak because of the distance from the microphone. It is also very high pitched because the plow is operating at a very high speed. The plow's individual chuffs are practically indistinguishable.
I'm not happy with the high pitch but that may be a limitation of the speakers which are twin sugar cubes with separate baffles. I'm going to study the Audacity program to see if there is a way to turn the treble down, or, perhaps someone could suggest another program that would allow me to play with the treble and base settings.
I'm going to use the sound of a 4-6-0 for the plow itself. The chuff rate at medium speed matches the blade rotation quite well even though the chuffs are not as rapid as they would normally be.
I have to add the whistle sounds to the decoder. The three units communicated via whistle signals. There are two sequences that I have already recorded. Both involve each of the three units signalling one after the other. One sequence has a single whistle blast from each unit and the other has twin blasts from each unit.
I have found a sound editing program that will let me reduce the high frequency sounds. I'm still experimenting with it but I believe that it will allow me to make the sounds a bit more robust.
Stay tuned.
I think it sounds pretty good, Dave, but then I don't know what sort of sound the plow is supposed to make.
Having said that, the sound would drive me batty in pretty short order!
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
PruittHaving said that, the sound would drive me batty in pretty short order!
Hi Mark,
Are you using DC or DCC? I can't remember.
I'm not really happy with the initial sound attempt either. It would drive me nuts after a while because it is too high pitched. I think I can reduce the high pitched sounds to make the recording more acceptable but the process is rather complex and I barely understand it. It will take a couple of days at least.
PruittI don't know what sort of sound the plow is supposed to make.
The plow itself sounds just like any other small steam engine running at high speed. The plow also emits some very high frequency squeals which are very hard on the ears. However, as I mentioned in a previous post, the plow chuff sounds can barely be heard on the original recording, but unfortunately the high pitched squeals are very audible. Most of what you hear is the two pusher engines so I'm putting a separate decoder into the plow in order to get the 'plow' sounds to a similar level to that of the pusher engines.
One of the other keys to keeping the sounds 'listenable' is to keep the volume down. I'm still experimenting with that.
Dave,
I use DCC.
Most of my locos have sound, but I'm slowly setting them all to a pretty low volume. I don't want to hear them across the room!
The sound of diesels (and the high-pitched whine of your plow) is like fingernails on a chalkboard to me. For my taste, a reduced sound volume (but not off!) is much more palatable.
Your plow sound wasn't bad at all. Just overwhelming.
One of the downsides to our sound-equipped models is that the limited space inside means the low frequency sounds are pretty much lost. You my consider just living with what you have - the best tiny speakers in the world can't reproduce realistic low-frequency rumble.
PruittOne of the downsides to our sound-equipped models is that the limited space inside means the low frequency sounds are pretty much lost. You my consider just living with what you have - the best tiny speakers in the world can't reproduce realistic low-frequency rumble.
I have thought of installing a large bass speaker in the tender of one of the pusher engines. There would be lots of space if I remove the weights. However, having a tender that won't stay on the tracks would make the whole project a waste of time, and I definitely didn't build it as a shelf queen!
I have been playing with a program called WavePad that has allowed me to reduce the higher frequencies somewhat. It seems to be an improvement but I ran into a glitch with the sound volume not staying the same when I adjusted the frequencies. I got that figured out, but then the Lokprogrammer wouldn't accept the revised sound file. I have asked my friend Peter to help me figure that on out.
Creating a Lokprogrammer custom sound file is a bit complex. The sound file has to have three sections to it, namely an Initial section, a Loop section and an Exit section. When I started playing with the sound file to adjust the frequencies, I actually had to adjust each of the sections individually. The sections also have to be edited so that the transitions between them are not abrupt. As you can guess, for a computer dinosaur like me, that has been a challenge.
Nevertheless, I shall persevere!!
In considering the sound quality there is likely an inherent hurdle with the original recording of the C&T consist itself. I doubt that it was pursued with the intention of having it reproduced with any notable exactness. In other words, the guys that made it were probably not concert hall sound engineers ensuring that their master recording would gather every frequency, harmonic and dynamic necessary for suitable transfer and later replay by some audiophile. There's not only a limit to what these mini-speakers and their baffles can physically reproduce, there's a rather limited reservoir that your circuitry and programming can even work with - irrespective of one's expertise with audio editing. Seems kind of like the 76th verse of the same model railroading song: "I got it to where what I got is good enough for me. The rest of you rubber-neckers can either go get a coffee or pound sand!"
Attuvian1 Seems kind of like the 76th verse of the same model railroading song: "I got it to where what I got is good enough for me. The rest of you rubber-neckers can either go get a coffee or pound sand!"
Everything that you say is absolutely correct! The original recordings were not perfect, the speakers have significant limitations, as does the decoder.
However, I'm not quite done with seeing how well I can do. In fact, I'm not going to quit working on this project until I have totally run out of options! I have been able to limit the high frequency sounds a bit. Any improvement in that regard is significant IMHO. I am considering mounting a large bass speaker in the tender, that is assuming I can find one that the decoder can handle. I will have to remove the factory weights which is a bit of a concern, but I'm sure I can pack enough lead sheet pieces in the remaining spaces to keep the tender on the rails.
This project may indeed go on for some time. Somebody joked about the thread getting to 100,000 views. Who knows? I want to see what I can do!
You da man, Dave!
Attuvian1You da man, Dave!
Thanks John,
I have just ordered some new speakers from Streamlined Backshop that are designed to give better bass tones. They are a new product from ESU and are on backorder so I'm not sure when I will get them. I also ordered some larger oval speakers with specially designed enclosures which are also supposed to emphasize the bass tones.
In the mean time I will continue to play with the sound tracks to see if I can make any improvements.
I spent some time exploring the Audacity sound editing program and I discovered that I could adjust the frequencies of the sound fairly easily. I created a new sound file with much of the higher tones reduced and loaded it onto the locomotive.
Here is a comparison of the two sound files. The first is the original file with the dominent higher pitched sounds, and the second is the lower pitched recording. What do you think?
High pitch:
Lower pitch:
The second one sounds better to me...
PruittThe second one sounds better to me...
I totally agree!
Right now I'm trying to load the whistle sounds into one of the pusher locomotives. It just finished loading so I give it a try and post a video if it works.
Here is the wee beastie with the whistle sounds installed. They are played on demand. The first segment has a single blast from each of the two pusher engines and the plow, and the second has two blasts from each unit. I don't know what the difference means. Anybody?
I still have some tweaking to do to get the sound volumes to match. When the train is operating, the two pusher locomotives will be in a consist. One of the engines will play the locomotives' sounds and the other will be silent. The plow will play its own sound. Should be interesting to operate!
I had to do a tiny bit of tweaking to the sound files to get the single blast and the double blast whistle sounds to operate in the same manner.
In my original set up, the single blast whistles only required F1 to be pushed once. After playing one sequence they shut off automatically. However the double blast sound which is triggered by the F2 button required a second push of the F2 button to turn the sound off or it would loop. My friend Peter in New Zealand gave me some instructions on what to do and what not to do, and, amazingly, I was able to implement the fix quite quickly and easily! Now both sets of whistle blasts only require a single push of either F1 or F2.
I owe Peter a great depth of gratitude for his help and his patience.
I have added the sound of wheel slip to the decoder. It plays on demand on F3. I'm going to go back to the audio tuning program to reduce the high tones a bit but that is a minor issue. I now have the locomotive/plow sounds on F8, the single whistle blasts on F1, the double whistle blasts on F2 and the wheel slip on F3.
The plow has a separate decoder because it can't really be heard in the consist sound file. For now I'm just using a 4-6-0 sound program but I may discover opportunities to tweak that as well.
Time to get back to finishing the rivet decals on the tenders, painting them and then installing the coal loads. Then I have to choose some locomotive numbers and a number for the plow.
That will finish the basic plow train consist, but I will still have to finish the auxilliary water car, the crew car, the tool car and the caboose. After 15 months there is finally an end in sight!