mvlandswGlue some shims on the truck bolster where the nubs will contact them. Maybe try some tape first to determine the needed thickness.
-Matt
Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.
crossthedogHere's the latest report from the front. I was trying to envision how I would add something in between the bolster and the car frame to keep the car centered, and I see these two little bumps on the frame (see yellow arrows in image)... Several weird things about these little knobs. 1) They only exist at one end of the car. The other end doesn't have them. That hardly seems to matter because 2) the truck never can tilt enough to touch them. I had thought maybe they were there to prevent the listing but with the truck back in place I can rock it back and forth and it never engages the knobs.
A shot in the dark...but since the nubs don't contact the truck, and the other end of the car doesn't have them...is it possible that the other truck is made slightly differently and the trucks got swapped end for end?
Santa Claus is waaaayyy ahead of youz.
maxman crossthedog Here's the latest report from the front. I was trying to envision how I would add something in between the bolster and the car frame to keep the car centered, and I see these two little bumps on the frame (see yellow arrows in image)... Several weird things about these little knobs. 1) They only exist at one end of the car. The other end doesn't have them. That hardly seems to matter because 2) the truck never can tilt enough to touch them. I had thought maybe they were there to prevent the listing but with the truck back in place I can rock it back and forth and it never engages the knobs. A shot in the dark...but since the nubs don't contact the truck, and the other end of the car doesn't have them...is it possible that the other truck is made slightly differently and the trucks got swapped end for end?
crossthedog Here's the latest report from the front. I was trying to envision how I would add something in between the bolster and the car frame to keep the car centered, and I see these two little bumps on the frame (see yellow arrows in image)... Several weird things about these little knobs. 1) They only exist at one end of the car. The other end doesn't have them. That hardly seems to matter because 2) the truck never can tilt enough to touch them. I had thought maybe they were there to prevent the listing but with the truck back in place I can rock it back and forth and it never engages the knobs.
I wondered about that when I was upgrading my version of the same car but the trucks are identical. I have no idea why one end has the nubs and the other doesn't. At first I thought they must have been broken off on one end but closer examination proved that to be false.
crossthedog @JohnNYBW, I didn't hear you mention anything about your car listing to one side. Is that not an issue with yours? I imagine they're the same model. Mine has the McHenry knucklers, so either someone upgraded (wish they'd gone with Kadees) or maybe they are of different eras, since someone here said that the production ran for a long time. Nonprototype wheelsize bothers me not a farthing, and it sounds like switching sizes could lead to headaches, so I think I'll put in metal wheels of the same diameter. Still waiting for rrebell to weigh in on how he added plastic to one of the bolsters. -Matt
@JohnNYBW, I didn't hear you mention anything about your car listing to one side. Is that not an issue with yours? I imagine they're the same model. Mine has the McHenry knucklers, so either someone upgraded (wish they'd gone with Kadees) or maybe they are of different eras, since someone here said that the production ran for a long time.
Nonprototype wheelsize bothers me not a farthing, and it sounds like switching sizes could lead to headaches, so I think I'll put in metal wheels of the same diameter.
Still waiting for rrebell to weigh in on how he added plastic to one of the bolsters.
No, I do not have a listing problem. If I understand, you haven't yet opened up the car by removing the roof/glass assembly. I'm wondering if weight was added to the interior of the car and maybe has come loose and is throwing the balance off. I think you said it would list to one side or the other. That might be an indication a weight is sliding around inside. Just a guess. Removing the roof isn't easy but I was able to do it by working the tabs at one end first, then working to the middle tabs, and then the opposite end. I did break off one of the tabs in the process but the other five hold it in place.
One problem I ran into when converting to body mounted KD couplers is that when I positioned the coupler box where I wanted for close coupling, it interferred with the swing of the truck. I had to move it about 3/16" farther forward. The screw hole I drilled comes up in the middle of the vestibule. I'll need to add rubber diaphragms to get an acceptable distance between cars. I also discovered that mounting the coupler box directly to the underside of the body results in too high a coupler. I think I need to add about a 1/16" spacer to get the correct coupler height.
In my experience with the IHC passenger cars, adding weight is not a solution to the listing. The problem seems to be the design of the car underbody. The point where the truck connects to the frame acts as sort of a fulcrum, if I am using the term correctly.
Rich
Alton Junction
John-NYBWI have no idea why one end has the nubs and the other doesn't.
richhotrainThe problem seems to be the design of the car underbody. The point where the truck connects to the frame acts as sort of a fulcrum
I'm not exactly sure why, but it worked like a charm. The car now rides straight up and down. Maybe the plastic is contacting the nubs, but I didn't think they stood out that tall; it's difficult to see in there when the truck is back on. I did follow Overmod's suggestion of treating only the "nub-end", and that may be why the car still wiggles a lot, like it's anxious about something or giggling. It's a jumpy little car. I may eventually try adding some weight, but for now it's fine. I also need to see how the plastic does in there just freely rotating. I didn't glue it to the underframe because it was just a hare-brained swag. And since it works, I've left it alone. I may need to affix it more solidly.
@John, your cautionary tale about changing out couplers to install Kadees is noted. I may leave the couplers alone. I don't like the McHenrys but they work. And to answer your question, no... there's not a weight or anything else inside the car moving around.
I'm glad you worked out a solution. Still, I would be curious if there was anything on the inside of the car that is causing it to list. There is nothing about the car design that would cause it to list or I and every other owner of this car would have the same problem. If there is no damage to the trucks or the underbody where the truck makes contact, there is no reason the car should list. That's why I suspect there is something on the inside of the body that is out of kilter. At the very least opening up the car would eliminate that possibility if there is nothing wrong inside the car.
Do you have a scale? If so, I would weigh the car to see if any weight has been added. Stock Rivarossi cars are terribly underweighted, especially those without interiors. They almost demand some additional weight to get them to perform adequately. I've added 1.5 oz. of weight and that only brought it up to 5 oz. That's still a bit underweight for a car of that length and mine has already had metal wheels installed. Without the weights and the metal wheels, I'm guessing this car when NIB would have weighed 3 oz. or less. Since like me, you bought yours used, you don't really know what modifications might have been done to your car. I would not only check the body of the car for any weight modifications but also the underside of the roof. Weight added to the underside of the roof would be even more inclined to cause the car to list than weight added to the floor because it would raise the center of gravity.
Earlier today, I attempted to reply to this thread, but after an hour of trying to type suggestions and offer photo illustrations (constantly interrupted by the frozen screen syndrome), I finally completed my reply.
When I clicked on "Submit Your Reply", my reply was apparently submitted to the trash can.
Those serrated plastic pins that were supposed to hold the trucks in place often worked themselves loose, while some the newer cars ("newer" relative to the original ones) had split plastic pins, which compressed as they were pushed into place in the underbody, the gap between them, once into the carbody, then expanded.
This picture should explain it better than my words...
Just before attempting this reply, I checked one of my boxes of passenger cars...
...and discovered that 18 of the 20 cars had been modified with screw-mounted trucks, many of the screws with large flat heads, just thin enugh to allow clearance for the trucks' axles. I'm sure that those screwheads help to prevent listing.
Some of the others have both the car's underbody and the trucks modified to accept similar screws applied from inside the car, in a manner similar to that used on Athearn passenger cars.
When I got those passenger cars, I replaced the pizza-cutter wheelsets with Kadee 36" wheels. They work well and require only a slight shaving of the trucks' brake shoes to prevent the wheels from jamming, using a sharp blade before the wheels are installed.
I do add weight to all of my passenger equipment, so most of them are around 8oz... no shimmy, no shake, and no attempts at roll-overs.
Wayne
@John, this all makes sense, what you say, and like I said, I'll probably get in there at some point to add some weight, but I can tell you with absolute certainty that there is nothing inside shifting around. I can twirl it over my head and behind my back like a Ninja and nothing moves in there. Remember, it was listing to one side, and then it flopped to the other side if I just tried to straighten it with my pinky. Nothing shifting. Also, the thing is so light that I'd bet dollars to donuts there has never been weight added. Which reminds me; you said Rivarossi, but surely you meant IHC. The car I have is an IHC car. (If you have a Rivarossi, then your argument against a flaw in the car design goes over the gunwhales, because the entire sample of owners known to this post -- i.e. Rich and I -- would all be experiencing the list.) But at the end of the day, I don't even have any kind of weight to put in it yet, so I'm not going to open it up today.
@Wayne,
That split pin -- yup, that's the little bugger, alright. Thanks, doc, for persevering with your post. Better late than never. There's a lot of good info here for a future upgrade. You mention pizza-cutter wheels. I did notice that this car fairly hops when it hits the frog on the new Atlas curved turnouts. I looked to see whether the flanges were noticably deep and I couldn't really see it in comparison to the wheels of a car that rides the frog smoothly, but eventually I'll put better (metal) wheels on, too.
Happy New Year, all, and as usual, thanks for the help.
The passenger cars sold in the US under the IHC name, and AHM before that, were manufactured by Rivarossi. IHC and AHM were the US distributors for Rivarossi. If you look on the bottom of the car on the end with the nubs, you will see the embossed Rivarossi double-R logo.
The more I think about it, I would bet the previous owner put stick-on weights under the roof. That would make the car top heavy and since the car was so light to begin with, that would likely cause the listing problem. It would explain why the car would list to either side without a weight shifting around inside.
John-NYBW The more I think about it, I would bet the previous owner put stick-on weights under the roof. That would make the car top heavy and since the car was so light to begin with, that would likely cause the listing problem. It would explain why the car would list to either side without a weight shifting around inside.
richhotrain John-NYBW The more I think about it, I would bet the previous owner put stick-on weights under the roof. That would make the car top heavy and since the car was so light to begin with, that would likely cause the listing problem. It would explain why the car would list to either side without a weight shifting around inside. Maybe, but my IHC listers have no added weight. Rich
Maybe, but my IHC listers have no added weight.
I hadn't read all the posts in the thread and was unaware you had the same problem. Maybe the lack of weight is the problem. Without added weight, Rivarossi cars are seriously underweighted by the NMRA standard. The first thing I did with my RPO was to add weight so maybe the reason mine doesn't list or wobble is because it has added ballast near the bottom of the car. I would bet that adding weight to the floor of the car would help alleviate any listing problem.
When I turn my RPO upside down, I notice the trucks wobble side to side quite a bit and even more so on the side without the nubs. Added weight on the floor should stabilize that wobble if the weights are properly centered. I use stick on steel weights of 1/4 oz. each and carefully place them near the trucks and centered from side to side. I added 3 of these weights to each end and am considering adding one more at each end.
John-NYBW When I turn my RPO upside down, I notice the trucks wobble side to side quite a bit and even more so on the side without the nubs.
When I turn my RPO upside down, I notice the trucks wobble side to side quite a bit and even more so on the side without the nubs.
John-NYBW Added weight on the floor should stabilize that wobble if the weights are properly centered.
Added weight on the floor should stabilize that wobble if the weights are properly centered.
John-NYBW I use stick on steel weights of 1/4 oz. each and carefully place them near the trucks and centered from side to side.
I use stick on steel weights of 1/4 oz. each and carefully place them near the trucks and centered from side to side.
I will be interested to learn whether or not the OP can solve the listing problem. So far, I have been unsuccessful. I will try to shoot a photo later today.
I'd put the weights as low down as possible, and close to the centerline (to get a 'pendulum' effect that self-centers the tilt). Perhaps making some judicious parts of underframe detail out of heavy non-toxic material might have the effect if you carefully balanced the added weight side-to-side...
The thing is, there were hundreds of thousands of these cars made and most of them don't have this issue. My understanding was that the cars were leveled by contact between the flat 'bosses' on the chassis and the flat top of the trucks. Even the light weight of OOB cars would hold this, the split pin only doing what very similar pins do on the prototype: hold the truck on if the car comes off track for any reason.
So an approach that 'fixes' one or both contact areas might be a Good Solution(™) and incidentally allow ride-height adjustment, or alternatively the coupler box height at either or both ends.
Imma gonna say here that changing to 36" wheels and gently opening up brakeshoes as Wayne suggested is a good idea, and as it raises the ride height of the trucks it should be done before the following...
Check that the boss surface is flat, and that there is no little parting line, etc. that disturbs the flatness. Here the transverse flatness is more significant than longitudinal. Someone more patient than I am could file or sand the periphery of the boss until flat, leaving the plastic truck pivot in place, and then cement a ring or 'washer' of thin (slickety) material so it is precisely level and at the right depth. A similar surface could be provided on the tops of the truck frames.
I am thinking, though, that what he might do is put a flat surface on the truck frame and epoxy something to the truck like a short piece of brass tubing, as a replacement kingpin. Then just face off the bosses in the carbody and cement on a piece of flat stock to give correct ride height and support.
He could then put 'retention' inside the car (screw, pin, etc.) or even arrange positive location with shim washers to control vertical play...
richhotrain John-NYBW When I turn my RPO upside down, I notice the trucks wobble side to side quite a bit and even more so on the side without the nubs. And therein lies the problem. I maintain that it is a design problem with the underbody of the car. John-NYBW Added weight on the floor should stabilize that wobble if the weights are properly centered. I don't see how. I have tried to add weight, but the wobble persists and the car still lists. John-NYBW I use stick on steel weights of 1/4 oz. each and carefully place them near the trucks and centered from side to side. Yep, I use the same thing - automobile brake weights. I will be interested to learn whether or not the OP can solve the listing problem. So far, I have been unsuccessful. I will try to shoot a photo later today. Rich
And therein lies the problem. I maintain that it is a design problem with the underbody of the car.
I don't see how. I have tried to add weight, but the wobble persists and the car still lists.
Yep, I use the same thing - automobile brake weights.
In the 1980s, I bought lots of Rivarossi passenger cars and ran them without modifications (underweighted, truck mounted horn hook couplers). I don't recall having a listing problem but that's something I might have forgotten. Most were UP cars and didn't fit with my current eastern themed free lanced railroad so they have been boxed up along with my Rivarossi steamers. Their wheels haven't touched rails in almost 30 years. I'm going to get a few of them out and see if any have a listing problem just to satisfy my curiosity.
Overmod I'd put the weights as low down as possible, and close to the centerline (to get a 'pendulum' effect that self-centers the tilt). Perhaps making some judicious parts of underframe detail out of heavy non-toxic material might have the effect if you carefully balanced the added weight side-to-side... The thing is, there were hundreds of thousands of these cars made and most of them don't have this issue. My understanding was that the cars were leveled by contact between the flat 'bosses' on the chassis and the flat top of the trucks. Even the light weight of OOB cars would hold this, the split pin only doing what very similar pins do on the prototype: hold the truck on if the car comes off track for any reason.
In Columbus, OH there is a science museum named the Center of Science and Industry, known locally as COSI. I remember one exhibit they had was a bicycle that road along a cable about 20 feet off the ground. A heavy weight hung down from the bike about 6 feet below the cable. It demonstrated how having that much weight below the cable would keep the bike balanced as it rode along the cable. A COSI worker would ride the bike along the cable with no fear of tipping over due to the weight that hung so low. The point was that low weight has a stablizing effect. It's the reason ships put ballast in the bottom of their hulls to keep the ship from listing excessively in wind and rough seas.
Overmod Imma gonna say here that changing to 36" wheels and gently opening up brakeshoes as Wayne suggested is a good idea, and as it raises the ride height of the trucks it should be done before the following...
I do remember that when I added 36" metal wheels to my Rivarossi cars, the wheels rubbed against the brake pads so if the is done, those will need to be filed back to keep them from rubbing. Even with the 33" wheels, there is a very small gap between brake pad and wheel.
I went back and looked again at his picture that shows both the 'nubs' and the truck frame, and had an 'aha!' moment.
The underframe has a center boss that is decidedly not flat, but appears to be about the diameter of the hole in the truck frame. The two nubs appear to be near-exactly the height of that boss.
Meanwhile the truck frame has the large hole but only a relative 'skeleton' of plastic at the sides.
Someone did a production change that made the truck mounting system incompatible with the car mounting system, I think.
If the boss is tall enough to go through the truck frame as a kingpin, as is fairly obviously how the two were meant to go, then the nubs could bear on the top of the truck and all would be well, as stated earlier. This truck doesn't have a flat surface for the nubs to ride on, and the chassis doesn't have any surface other than the nubs to actually transfer the car weight to the truck frame...
I wonder if some bright spark has cut down those bosses with some kind of drill tool to get that funky countersunk look, thinking this would make his trucks ride better...
A fix would be to extend the boss under the carbody by adding a piece of stock or tubing that fits the hole in the truck, and then just gluing a shim piece on top of the truck that the nubs could bear on.
This raises the issue (no pun intended) about what's going on at the other truck mounting point. Presumably this doesn't have an extended tube through the truck hole; it needs the sort of support I mentioned to be 'right' but the usual flat boss on flat truck surface but slightly loose screw securing it ought to work to set ride height even if it doesn't center tilt very well.
Note that you can't quite "leave this end to its own devices" with this construction. You can leave it free to tilt and equalize, you can leave a measure if lateral slop, but the ride height has to be absolute, both for appearance and to keep the coupler well engaged at that end...
Most truck mounting recommendations I have seen require tighten one truck until it turns freely but has no rocking motion. The other truck is also tightened but left to rock slightly. This, in effect, gives the car a "three point suspension", allowing it to compensate for track irregularities as it travels. I too, would opt for building up the area around mounting pin of the truck with the "nubs" so it swivels freely, but the car can't "list. Let the truck without "nubs" do what it wants.
Most truck mounting recommendations I have seen require tighten one truck until it turns freely but has no rocking motion. The other truck is also tightened but left to rock slightly. This, in effect, gives the car a "three point suspension", allowing it to compensate for track irregularities as it travels. I too, would opt for building up the area around mounting pin, on top of of the truck with the "nubs" so it swivels freely, but the car can't "list. Let the truck without "nubs" do what it wants.
Most truck mounting recommendations I have seen require tighten one truck until it turns freely but has no rocking motion. The other truck is also tightened but left to rock slightly. This, in effect, gives the car a "three point suspension", allowing it to compensate for track irregularities as it travels. I too, would opt for building up the area around mounting pin on the top of the truck with the "nubs" so it swivels freely, but the car can't "list. Let the truck without "nubs" do what it wants.
Most truck mounting recommendations I have seen require tighten one truck until it turns freely but has no rocking motion. The other truck is also tightened but left to rock slightly. This, in effect, gives the car a "three point suspension", allowing it to compensate for track irregularities as it travels. I too, would opt for building up the area around mounting pin on top of the truck with the "nubs" so it swivels freely, but the car can't "list. Let the truck without "nubs" do what it wants.
Alright already NHTX!
richhotrain Alright already NHTX! Rich
I dunno, Rich, he managed to make four posts, while I struggled for over an hour trying to make one, which disappeared when I attempted to post it.
I'm thinking of composing my posts, then sending them to NHTX for him to post for me, as he apparently has that magic touch.
doctorwayne richhotrain Alright already NHTX! Rich I dunno, Rich, he managed to make four posts, while I struggled for over an hour trying to make one, which disappeared when I attempted to post it. I'm thinking of composing my posts, then sending them to NHTX for him to post for me, as he apparently has that magic touch. Wayne
I had planned to add these photos to my earlier post, but didn't want to press my luck. Here's some photos of the screwed-in-place Rivarossi trucks, with the overly-wide screw heads...
...this one's of a similar size, but with a domed head, which is just low enough to not interfere with the axle...
As for weights in the passenger cars, all of them have them, but some are in the car's roof, like this shortened diner, converted into a combine...
...while this former combine (I think originally based on a Santa Fe prototype), was turned into a doodlebug, using a Mashima motor driving an Athearn switcher truck...
It easily out-pulls some of my steamers...
Sorry, guys.,My lack of computer smarts, fat fingers, this site with its "ahem" quirks, plus an abundance of grey hair conspired against me.