The listing problem came back... I thought my styrene insert had fixed it but it started happening again. But I finally found a more solid solution. Remember that double-ring collar on the top of the truck in the photo I posted earlier in this thread?
Here's whatcha do:
1) File that puppy down to flat. I used a file to start, finished with a sharp blade. Just scrape it all out of there. This enables the truck to be closer to those stabilizing nubs.
2) When you put the pin back through the truck, insert three Kadee #205 washers between the bottom of the truck and the head of the pin. This makes up for the material removed from under the pin and keeps things tight. Four was too many.
My RPO now listeth no more. Still jitters like a ninny, even though I added weight to bring the total weight to just under 6 ounces. Someday I may buy better trucks for it to see if that calms its nerves, but for now I'm happy. At least it rides straight up and down.
Selah.
-Matt
Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.
I used to use silicone caulk to keep weights in place, but over time, the bond failed (lots of those cars were stored on their sides in their original boxes, if not on the layout, and I'm sure that over time, that contributed to the failure of the bonds)
Nowadays, a lot of the weights are held in place like this...
...as the plastic-to-plastic bonds are much more permanent.
This one's about the same weight...
Many of my freight cars done in this manner weigh around 6 oz., and track well. Once the lead weights are in place, there's no need to handle the lead...out of sight, out of mind.
Wayne
Matt-
If you're not planning to install an interior in your RPO, I'd suggest just using some silicone sealant or bathtub caulk to glue some pennies to the floor. They're cheaper than automative wheel-balancing weights, aren't as toxic as lead, and are readily available. Typical USian pennies are about a tenth of an ounce apiece.
Using silicone caulk is preferable, since it stays flexible and bonds well to both plastic and metal. ACC/superglue is too brittle and tends to shear in such applications, and most contact cements aren't great at adhering to metal.
-Fritz Milhaupt, Publications Editor, Pere Marquette Historical Society, Inc.http://www.pmhistsoc.org
crossthedog ... And you know, I've never given the time of day to a doodlebug, but that yellow one of yours is an absolute charmer and for the first time ever I actually imagined how cool it would be to have something like that come around a corner of my layout.
And you know, I've never given the time of day to a doodlebug, but that yellow one of yours is an absolute charmer and for the first time ever I actually imagined how cool it would be to have something like that come around a corner of my layout.
Your kind assessment of my doodlebug is much appreciated, as it's one of my favourite kitbashes.
If anybody wants to add weight to their rolling stock, or locomotives, the stick-on tire-balancing weights are easy to use, and, since they're generally made for sticking on wheels that travel though all sorts of weather, they're likely to stay exactly where you put them.
I use discarded tire weights, available for free from many tire outlets, and melt them down to cast my own weights.That includes weights for rolling stock, of course, but also weights to improve the pulling abilities of model steam engines.There are usually lots of places to conceal added weight, but some weights can be right out in the open, with viewers none-the-wiser...
Here's some lead-filled brass tubing standing in for steam pipes...
...and stainless steel water pipes, also filled with lead, in their role as compressed air reservoirs...
Air reservoirs are easy enough to make, and pretty-well all steam locos have 'em (three on this one)...
Some Bachmann Consolidations with replacement air tanks...
...and a bunch of Athearn Mikes, too...
If you want to make your own weights for passenger cars, there's some info illustrated
HERE
John-NYBWYour third photo shows a truck mounted knuckle coupler. I'm guessing because this is a shorter car than the other two....
This might help:
https://www.nmra.org/beginner/weight
A handy printable page:
https://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/standards/sandrp/pdf/rp-20.1.pdf
Regards, Ed
gmpullmanI don't see any reason for magnets. I have scores of various weights on hand but THESE are handy and have self adhesive strips attached.
crossthedogI heard someone say automotive magnets or auto weights (see, I do read all the responses, even if my brain leaks the information right out again).
Magnets? I don't see any reason for magnets. I have scores of various weights on hand but THESE are handy and have self adhesive strips attached.
I'm sure others will chime in with other suggestions.
Good Luck, Ed
Oh... and DoctorWayne, I can see how those low-profile, broad-headed screws would help keep the car upright. It doesn't seem to take much. I was surprised me little sliver of plastic worked so well. Thanks for posting those photos. And you know, I've never given the time of day to a doodlebug, but that yellow one of yours is an absolute charmer and for the first time ever I actually imagined how cool it would be to have something like that come around a corner of my layout.
John-NYBWIs that truck mounted box a KD product or third party?
Alright fellas... I did two things. First, I had a really close look at what is happening between the truck and the underframe now that I have my styrene insert... uh... inserted in there. It turns out that those nubs on the underframe do reach all the way down and they neatly skate around on the insert, stabilizing the car. I had installed it athwart the frame (id est, perpendicular to the track) but because I didn't glue it to anything, it rotates a little bit. But by hobbit's luck, its width is such that even if it works itself longwise to the car, its still just wide enough that the nubs ride around it. I suppose if I were to do it again I'd cut out the styrene in a circle whose outer edge was just beyond the nubs. In any case, @Overmod, I thought you'd be pleased to know that your assessment of the whole program down under there was spot on. I just did a little less of a professional fix than you might have. I don't even have a proper workbench. Still, you accurately envisioned the solution. Thanks for putting so much into it.
Second, by popular demand (JohnNYBW, I'm looking at you), I took off the bloody roof, just to lay the question to rest of anything shifting around in there or mounted on the ceiling. @Maxman, I think it was you who offered the Toothpick Trick, which worked well, thanks. So as I presumed, the only thing I found in there was about 10 cubic inches of air from a simpler, happier time. But now that I have the thing open, I want to put some weights in. I heard someone say automotive magnets or auto weights (see, I do read all the responses, even if my brain leaks the information right out again). So what are those, where's the best source for them, and which of the kajillion kinds of adhesive do I need to affix them to the floor of the car? Actually, I think I have some cement that works on magnets.
Lastly, I note that the car's couplers are low, a felicitous accident that makes putting in larger wheels (yes, yes, I won't forget to trim the brakes with a sharp blade) a more appetizing project.
Thanks again, all.
Wayne,
Your third photo shows a truck mounted knuckle coupler. I'm guessing because this is a shorter car than the other two. I discovered I can't get close coupling on my RPO because if I put the coupler box where I want, it interfers with the swing of the truck. Is that truck mounted box a KD product or third party?
Sorry, guys.,My lack of computer smarts, fat fingers, this site with its "ahem" quirks, plus an abundance of grey hair conspired against me.
I had planned to add these photos to my earlier post, but didn't want to press my luck. Here's some photos of the screwed-in-place Rivarossi trucks, with the overly-wide screw heads...
...this one's of a similar size, but with a domed head, which is just low enough to not interfere with the axle...
As for weights in the passenger cars, all of them have them, but some are in the car's roof, like this shortened diner, converted into a combine...
...while this former combine (I think originally based on a Santa Fe prototype), was turned into a doodlebug, using a Mashima motor driving an Athearn switcher truck...
It easily out-pulls some of my steamers...
doctorwayne richhotrain Alright already NHTX! Rich I dunno, Rich, he managed to make four posts, while I struggled for over an hour trying to make one, which disappeared when I attempted to post it. I'm thinking of composing my posts, then sending them to NHTX for him to post for me, as he apparently has that magic touch. Wayne
richhotrain Alright already NHTX! Rich
Alright already NHTX!
Rich
I dunno, Rich, he managed to make four posts, while I struggled for over an hour trying to make one, which disappeared when I attempted to post it.
I'm thinking of composing my posts, then sending them to NHTX for him to post for me, as he apparently has that magic touch.
Alton Junction
Most truck mounting recommendations I have seen require tighten one truck until it turns freely but has no rocking motion. The other truck is also tightened but left to rock slightly. This, in effect, gives the car a "three point suspension", allowing it to compensate for track irregularities as it travels. I too, would opt for building up the area around mounting pin on top of the truck with the "nubs" so it swivels freely, but the car can't "list. Let the truck without "nubs" do what it wants.
Most truck mounting recommendations I have seen require tighten one truck until it turns freely but has no rocking motion. The other truck is also tightened but left to rock slightly. This, in effect, gives the car a "three point suspension", allowing it to compensate for track irregularities as it travels. I too, would opt for building up the area around mounting pin on the top of the truck with the "nubs" so it swivels freely, but the car can't "list. Let the truck without "nubs" do what it wants.
Most truck mounting recommendations I have seen require tighten one truck until it turns freely but has no rocking motion. The other truck is also tightened but left to rock slightly. This, in effect, gives the car a "three point suspension", allowing it to compensate for track irregularities as it travels. I too, would opt for building up the area around mounting pin, on top of of the truck with the "nubs" so it swivels freely, but the car can't "list. Let the truck without "nubs" do what it wants.
Most truck mounting recommendations I have seen require tighten one truck until it turns freely but has no rocking motion. The other truck is also tightened but left to rock slightly. This, in effect, gives the car a "three point suspension", allowing it to compensate for track irregularities as it travels. I too, would opt for building up the area around mounting pin of the truck with the "nubs" so it swivels freely, but the car can't "list. Let the truck without "nubs" do what it wants.
I went back and looked again at his picture that shows both the 'nubs' and the truck frame, and had an 'aha!' moment.
The underframe has a center boss that is decidedly not flat, but appears to be about the diameter of the hole in the truck frame. The two nubs appear to be near-exactly the height of that boss.
Meanwhile the truck frame has the large hole but only a relative 'skeleton' of plastic at the sides.
Someone did a production change that made the truck mounting system incompatible with the car mounting system, I think.
If the boss is tall enough to go through the truck frame as a kingpin, as is fairly obviously how the two were meant to go, then the nubs could bear on the top of the truck and all would be well, as stated earlier. This truck doesn't have a flat surface for the nubs to ride on, and the chassis doesn't have any surface other than the nubs to actually transfer the car weight to the truck frame...
I wonder if some bright spark has cut down those bosses with some kind of drill tool to get that funky countersunk look, thinking this would make his trucks ride better...
A fix would be to extend the boss under the carbody by adding a piece of stock or tubing that fits the hole in the truck, and then just gluing a shim piece on top of the truck that the nubs could bear on.
This raises the issue (no pun intended) about what's going on at the other truck mounting point. Presumably this doesn't have an extended tube through the truck hole; it needs the sort of support I mentioned to be 'right' but the usual flat boss on flat truck surface but slightly loose screw securing it ought to work to set ride height even if it doesn't center tilt very well.
Note that you can't quite "leave this end to its own devices" with this construction. You can leave it free to tilt and equalize, you can leave a measure if lateral slop, but the ride height has to be absolute, both for appearance and to keep the coupler well engaged at that end...
Overmod Imma gonna say here that changing to 36" wheels and gently opening up brakeshoes as Wayne suggested is a good idea, and as it raises the ride height of the trucks it should be done before the following...
Imma gonna say here that changing to 36" wheels and gently opening up brakeshoes as Wayne suggested is a good idea, and as it raises the ride height of the trucks it should be done before the following...
I do remember that when I added 36" metal wheels to my Rivarossi cars, the wheels rubbed against the brake pads so if the is done, those will need to be filed back to keep them from rubbing. Even with the 33" wheels, there is a very small gap between brake pad and wheel.
Overmod I'd put the weights as low down as possible, and close to the centerline (to get a 'pendulum' effect that self-centers the tilt). Perhaps making some judicious parts of underframe detail out of heavy non-toxic material might have the effect if you carefully balanced the added weight side-to-side... The thing is, there were hundreds of thousands of these cars made and most of them don't have this issue. My understanding was that the cars were leveled by contact between the flat 'bosses' on the chassis and the flat top of the trucks. Even the light weight of OOB cars would hold this, the split pin only doing what very similar pins do on the prototype: hold the truck on if the car comes off track for any reason.
I'd put the weights as low down as possible, and close to the centerline (to get a 'pendulum' effect that self-centers the tilt). Perhaps making some judicious parts of underframe detail out of heavy non-toxic material might have the effect if you carefully balanced the added weight side-to-side...
The thing is, there were hundreds of thousands of these cars made and most of them don't have this issue. My understanding was that the cars were leveled by contact between the flat 'bosses' on the chassis and the flat top of the trucks. Even the light weight of OOB cars would hold this, the split pin only doing what very similar pins do on the prototype: hold the truck on if the car comes off track for any reason.
In Columbus, OH there is a science museum named the Center of Science and Industry, known locally as COSI. I remember one exhibit they had was a bicycle that road along a cable about 20 feet off the ground. A heavy weight hung down from the bike about 6 feet below the cable. It demonstrated how having that much weight below the cable would keep the bike balanced as it rode along the cable. A COSI worker would ride the bike along the cable with no fear of tipping over due to the weight that hung so low. The point was that low weight has a stablizing effect. It's the reason ships put ballast in the bottom of their hulls to keep the ship from listing excessively in wind and rough seas.
richhotrain John-NYBW When I turn my RPO upside down, I notice the trucks wobble side to side quite a bit and even more so on the side without the nubs. And therein lies the problem. I maintain that it is a design problem with the underbody of the car. John-NYBW Added weight on the floor should stabilize that wobble if the weights are properly centered. I don't see how. I have tried to add weight, but the wobble persists and the car still lists. John-NYBW I use stick on steel weights of 1/4 oz. each and carefully place them near the trucks and centered from side to side. Yep, I use the same thing - automobile brake weights. I will be interested to learn whether or not the OP can solve the listing problem. So far, I have been unsuccessful. I will try to shoot a photo later today. Rich
John-NYBW When I turn my RPO upside down, I notice the trucks wobble side to side quite a bit and even more so on the side without the nubs.
When I turn my RPO upside down, I notice the trucks wobble side to side quite a bit and even more so on the side without the nubs.
And therein lies the problem. I maintain that it is a design problem with the underbody of the car.
John-NYBW Added weight on the floor should stabilize that wobble if the weights are properly centered.
Added weight on the floor should stabilize that wobble if the weights are properly centered.
I don't see how. I have tried to add weight, but the wobble persists and the car still lists.
John-NYBW I use stick on steel weights of 1/4 oz. each and carefully place them near the trucks and centered from side to side.
I use stick on steel weights of 1/4 oz. each and carefully place them near the trucks and centered from side to side.
Yep, I use the same thing - automobile brake weights.
I will be interested to learn whether or not the OP can solve the listing problem. So far, I have been unsuccessful. I will try to shoot a photo later today.
In the 1980s, I bought lots of Rivarossi passenger cars and ran them without modifications (underweighted, truck mounted horn hook couplers). I don't recall having a listing problem but that's something I might have forgotten. Most were UP cars and didn't fit with my current eastern themed free lanced railroad so they have been boxed up along with my Rivarossi steamers. Their wheels haven't touched rails in almost 30 years. I'm going to get a few of them out and see if any have a listing problem just to satisfy my curiosity.
So an approach that 'fixes' one or both contact areas might be a Good Solution(™) and incidentally allow ride-height adjustment, or alternatively the coupler box height at either or both ends.
Check that the boss surface is flat, and that there is no little parting line, etc. that disturbs the flatness. Here the transverse flatness is more significant than longitudinal. Someone more patient than I am could file or sand the periphery of the boss until flat, leaving the plastic truck pivot in place, and then cement a ring or 'washer' of thin (slickety) material so it is precisely level and at the right depth. A similar surface could be provided on the tops of the truck frames.
I am thinking, though, that what he might do is put a flat surface on the truck frame and epoxy something to the truck like a short piece of brass tubing, as a replacement kingpin. Then just face off the bosses in the carbody and cement on a piece of flat stock to give correct ride height and support.
He could then put 'retention' inside the car (screw, pin, etc.) or even arrange positive location with shim washers to control vertical play...
richhotrain John-NYBW The more I think about it, I would bet the previous owner put stick-on weights under the roof. That would make the car top heavy and since the car was so light to begin with, that would likely cause the listing problem. It would explain why the car would list to either side without a weight shifting around inside. Maybe, but my IHC listers have no added weight. Rich
John-NYBW The more I think about it, I would bet the previous owner put stick-on weights under the roof. That would make the car top heavy and since the car was so light to begin with, that would likely cause the listing problem. It would explain why the car would list to either side without a weight shifting around inside.
The more I think about it, I would bet the previous owner put stick-on weights under the roof. That would make the car top heavy and since the car was so light to begin with, that would likely cause the listing problem. It would explain why the car would list to either side without a weight shifting around inside.
Maybe, but my IHC listers have no added weight.
I hadn't read all the posts in the thread and was unaware you had the same problem. Maybe the lack of weight is the problem. Without added weight, Rivarossi cars are seriously underweighted by the NMRA standard. The first thing I did with my RPO was to add weight so maybe the reason mine doesn't list or wobble is because it has added ballast near the bottom of the car. I would bet that adding weight to the floor of the car would help alleviate any listing problem.
When I turn my RPO upside down, I notice the trucks wobble side to side quite a bit and even more so on the side without the nubs. Added weight on the floor should stabilize that wobble if the weights are properly centered. I use stick on steel weights of 1/4 oz. each and carefully place them near the trucks and centered from side to side. I added 3 of these weights to each end and am considering adding one more at each end.
The passenger cars sold in the US under the IHC name, and AHM before that, were manufactured by Rivarossi. IHC and AHM were the US distributors for Rivarossi. If you look on the bottom of the car on the end with the nubs, you will see the embossed Rivarossi double-R logo.