OK, so in the latest issue of MR there is another two page spread from these people Hattons. Their ad contains this statement:
"We frequently stock a wide selection of pre-owned USA and Canadian outline models."
Honestly, I was unimpressed with the way they "introduced" themselves to the North American market by asking to buy "collections" and telling us we need an "era" system.
Maybe they need an American to write their ad copy here so that us dumb hillbillies will understand what they are talking about? No definition of "outline" in my Websters seems to fit the sentence?
Disclaimer - I confess, I don't know much of anything about trains in the UK or Europe - prototype or model. I'm still busy learning about the ones here I actually want to model.
But then again, I'm not their target audience, I plan to die owning all these trains, and buying trains that others have played with represents a very small percentage of my lifetime purchases.
Happy with my little trains with no brains and my 12 mpg pickup truck......
Sheldon
never mind, I don't want to be sent to permanent moderation
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
BigDaddy never mind, I don't want to be sent to permanent moderation
Please, feel free to share, inquiring minds want to know.
Understand, I have nothing against any of our friends in the UK or elsewhere, and I realize some of you will think my education may be lacking, and in some ways you may be correct.
It has been said that the UK and the USA are two countries seperated by a common language......
This not so world traveling colonist would just like to know?
PS - feel free to private meassage me Henry, good, bad or otherwise.
My guess would be that they might be models of Canadian prototypes and/or paint schemes.
maxman My guess would be that they might be models of Canadian prototypes and/or paint schemes.
I'm not an English teacher, and I could be wrong, but the way I read the sentence, the adjective "outline" modifies both USA and Canadian?
Of course when we actually know, the context wil be perfectly clear.....
Hi Sheldon,
Why not contact Hattons directly and ask them?
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
hon30critter Hi Sheldon, Why not contact Hattons directly and ask them? Dave
Well, I suppose I could, and maybe I will. But 140 people have read my post in about an hour, and no one knows or is willing to say?
I have read the term before in UK model publications or descussions, and wondered what it means, but now it is the lead line in a two page ad in MR?
PS - Email sent. It is about 5:30 AM over there, lets see what they have to say.
ATLANTIC CENTRALMaybe they need an American to write their ad copy here so that us dumb hillbillies will understand what they are talking about? No definition of "outline" in my Websters seems to fit the sentence?
Sheldon, there's an older thread HERE on European model railroading vs US model railroading, and if you scroll down far enough, there's a post with photos of three very nicely-done European locomotives, and a reference in the accompanying text which suggests to me, at least, that an "outline model" is one that's well-done and very prototypical-looking.
You had several posts in that thread, but I saw no other explanations from anyone else, of what constituted an "outline model", nor could I find reference to that term in several other on-line searches.
Wayne
ATLANTIC CENTRAL maxman My guess would be that they might be models of Canadian prototypes and/or paint schemes. I'm not an English teacher, and I could be wrong, but the way I read the sentence, the adjective "outline" modifies both USA and Canadian? Of course when we actually know, the context wil be perfectly clear..... Sheldon
I have a professional background in Canuckian English, so that may disqualify me, or at least limit, me for the purposes of shedding light on this term. However, like you, Sheldon, I have never seen it used the way it appears, so it must be a colloguial or cultural reference to something. I'd almost believe it's a typo and they meant 'outlier', as in so extreme, deep into the tails of a standard normal distribution, that it's 'off the charts'.
To me, an outline is a caricature or a perimetric representation of the silhouette of an item, or it's the basic framework for a more comprehensive effort still to come, such as the outline one offers his Grade 5 teacher before she gives one permission to proceed with an essay.
As used in Hatton's ad and in the British magazines, "outline" means the physical characteristics of an item, what it looks like. "EMD F unit outline", "Pennsyvania Railroad, Pacific steam locomotive outline" etc, etc,. When our British cousins use the term "outline", think "what it looks like".
Lived there in the beautiful and historic part of East Anglia known as Suffolk for three years. Made friends with some railway fans and would love to have a Rapido-quality Class 37 someday.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
I am an Englishman who models USA prototype.
https://kaleyyard.wordpress.com/
Before the pandemic I made regular visits to the USA to research and photograph trains and locations. Have to do research now through internet photoraphs and Youtube.
Google searches will often bring up images of trains from across the world.
I can usually tell which country the train is from with visual clues and characteristics; red wheels on German steam locomotive and streamlining on Japanese high speed trains being two obvious examples.
Hattons have a staff of about 70 in their mail order department sell a wide range of models representing trains on different continents to a world wide customer base.
When they use the phrase "British Outline" they are referring to models of prototypes that would have operated or are still operating in the British Isles.
when they use the phrase "North American Outline" they are referring to models of prototypes from any era that operated or are still operating in the USA, Canada or the Central American counties.
In mainland Europe, manufacturers sell their models with descriptions that include an era, a time period description so that modellers can pair a loco with carriages from the same time period. Think of providing an inexperienced modeller in the USA with a description on the box so that a cab forward steam loco is not purchased to haul the new Brightline coaches in Southern Florida.
Hope that helps to understand the Hattons advert.
JaBear and Trevor,
Thank you, the nice people at Hattons have confirmed this AM your information.
And they asked me what term is commonly used here. So I advised them that the word "prototype" is the common descriptor over here.
Trevor - As a side note, I get the desire for the era thing, but North American railroads seem to have a much more diverse history making the broad categories Hattons has proposed still full of possible bad matchups like you describe. If manufactures are going to any trouble at on this topic, why can't they just identify the range of years for that specific item? Why do we need a "system"?
Trevor has beaten me to answering the query and answered it well.
The 'Era' system works very well here in the U.K..
Any model now made says on the box when the real one ran. Many items made ran in different eras, so on the box would say Eras 3,4,5 & 6 (for example).
If a person was modelling era 6 then they know that item is suitable. Modelling Era 8, then the item is unsuitable.
As I say, the system works well here and saves people asking the question 'is it suitable for their layout.'
David
To the world you are someone. To someone you are the world
I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought
What remains curious, though, is the choice of the word "outline".
Rich
Alton Junction
It's just a difference in the use of language. Think color and colour, different spellings but same meaning.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL JaBear and Trevor, Thank you, the nice people at Hattons have confirmed this AM your information. And they asked me what term is commonly used here. So I advised them that the word "prototype" is the common descriptor over here. Trevor - As a side note, I get the desire for the era thing, but North American railroads seem to have a much more diverse history making the broad categories Hattons has proposed still full of possible bad matchups like you describe. If manufactures are going to any trouble at on this topic, why can't they just identify the range of years for that specific item? Why do we need a "system"? Sheldon
Sheldon, did you ask them how they use the word "Prototype"?
- Douglas
Outline of a real engine in U.S.A. & Canada.
Prototype is a real engine in U.S.A & Canada
I have four locomotives that a mix of 'whatever', sold for the U.K. market, but never seen in real life. They do not have a British outline nor British prototype. Good fun though.
From what I have glanced through looks like UK for foobie.
NorthBrit Trevor has beaten me to answering the query and answered it well. The 'Era' system works very well here in the U.K.. Any model now made says on the box when the real one ran. Many items made ran in different eras, so on the box would say Eras 3,4,5 & 6 (for example). If a person was modelling era 6 then they know that item is suitable. Modelling Era 8, then the item is unsuitable. As I say, the system works well here and saves people asking the question 'is it suitable for their layout.' David
But the divisions proposed by Hattons for North America are too broad, maybe because of the private industry nature of North American railroading and the diverse geographic differences of various regions.
The beginning of some of their "eras" bear no resemblance to the ends of those eras.
Again, if you can do the research to put a piece of equipment in a "cubby" for an era, than you can just put the correct range of years on the item.
Or is that too much reading and thinking for some people?
I model 1954, I don't want stuff from 1958 because someone decided it was the same "era".
ndbprr From what I have glanced through looks like UK for foobie.
??????
Just the opposite, the term seems to imply some reasonable level of accuracy.
But what level of accuracy is close enough?
I'm not interested in having that conversation. I gave up rivet counting years ago in favor of reasonable artistic impression.
I can count rivets with the best of them, I can tell you what is incorrect on my models, and I can tell you why those compromises don't matter to me.
I model the early 50's, how much do you know about the dozens of variations in early piggyback flat cars?
Or, can you visually identify the year of a Checker Motors taxi? I can.
I just choose to run equipment that is close enough to give the correct visual impression overall.
I have $100 that says you could come to my layout, when I get it back up, and you or most people, would have a hard time with the correctness or incorrectness of most of the rolling stock.
PS - I hate that term "foobie", as it implies someone deliberately tried to fool, cheat, or take advantage of you. Yes, I am a grumpy old man today.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI model 1954, I don't want stuff from 1958 because someone decided it was the same "era".
Mike
Nicely said, Mike.
Dan
It's confusing because it's not "outline model", that's not a real term. It's "British outline" model or "US outline" model.
The British modellers use "outline" in the sense you would use it in a diagram or drawing, like you were looking at a blueprint. The Oxford dictionary's first definition of "outline" is "a line or set of lines enclosing or indicating the shape of an object in a sketch or diagram."
The "outline" is the overall shape and dimensions. In a sense, an NRMA gauge gives you an "outline" as far as the width and height to allow for US railroad clearances. US engines are bigger than UK engines, so if you built a layout to the UK "outline" you might not have enough clearance to run US engines made to the same scale.
NorthBrit Outline of a real engine in U.S.A. & Canada. Prototype is a real engine in U.S.A & Canada I have four locomotives that a mix of 'whatever', sold for the U.K. market, but never seen in real life. They do not have a British outline nor British prototype. Good fun though. David
Prototype model would say the same thing as Outline model. A model of a real engine.
Maybe Hatton's is trying to say that they prefer to stock models of real engines, and therefore don't deal much in foobies?
Water Level Route ATLANTIC CENTRAL I model 1954, I don't want stuff from 1958 because someone decided it was the same "era". I understand where you are at Sheldon, but I appreciate what the concept could do. For example, I believe I've seen some Preiser figure sets listed as "Era 3" or something to that effect. It gives folks who are trying to get the general feel of an era in place some guidance so they aren't too out of bounds so to speak. I tried being nailed to a date like you but quickly found that trying to model railroad wasn't much fun for me anymore. I didn't see the point in pulling a particular train car off the layout that had a build date of 1952 in really tiny letters just because I want to model the 1940's. It could easily pass for a car built in the 40's and I doubt anyone who ever sees it would look that closely. My hats off to those modelers that go to that length of detail. For the (dare I say) average modeler though, I think the era system is a good idea. You don't have to follow it if you don't want to and it provides some basic guidance for those that aren't as concerned about specific dates. Would also lessen the work needed to provide a more exact date range for a particular model. Just my .
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I model 1954, I don't want stuff from 1958 because someone decided it was the same "era".
I understand where you are at Sheldon, but I appreciate what the concept could do. For example, I believe I've seen some Preiser figure sets listed as "Era 3" or something to that effect. It gives folks who are trying to get the general feel of an era in place some guidance so they aren't too out of bounds so to speak. I tried being nailed to a date like you but quickly found that trying to model railroad wasn't much fun for me anymore. I didn't see the point in pulling a particular train car off the layout that had a build date of 1952 in really tiny letters just because I want to model the 1940's. It could easily pass for a car built in the 40's and I doubt anyone who ever sees it would look that closely. My hats off to those modelers that go to that length of detail. For the (dare I say) average modeler though, I think the era system is a good idea. You don't have to follow it if you don't want to and it provides some basic guidance for those that aren't as concerned about specific dates. Would also lessen the work needed to provide a more exact date range for a particular model. Just my .
Your freight car example assumes that 1952 car is accurate to begin with. I don't worry about build dates or service dates if I know the car and paint scheme are correct.
I'm talking about obvious stuff, like a 58 Impala on my September 1954 layout.
Or motive power, the newest locos I own are to SD9's, fresh from EMD.
I get the no fun part, that's why I stopped worring about ribs on boxcar ends, etc.
Almost all my passenger equipment is freelanced, generic, and selectively compressed, but it all looks like my era.
Again, I still don't see where "in service from 1935 to 1958" in harder than "era III" or whatever? The manufacturers have this data these days. Even for the older generic stuff still in production.
I agree with Sheldon on this one.For the UK, a small country with a nationalized railway system for many years, an Era System works well for them. It also helps that most of the British Isles have the same environment and terrain (within certain limits), which means engine design doesn't have to change much to cope with that.Currently, the National Rail network in the UK has 10,261 route miles; in 1925, the New York Central alone had 11,584 route miles, the Pennsylvania RR had 11,640 in 1926, Southern Pacific has 18,337 miles in the 1970s, and today's Union Pacific has 32,200 route miles. By size comparison, the entire UK system makes up one good-sized American railroad from before the big mergers. A System Era would work well for one American railroad; it doesn't work so well for multiple American railroads. The N&W didn't buy a diesel until 1955 and dieselized completely in 1960; the NH bought their first diesel in 1933 and last ran a steam engine in revenue service in 1952. There's no era system that can cope with that kind of variation. The best we can do is just put down a range of years that each model is good for and let each modeler choose their own timespan.
Paul3 For the UK, a small country with a nationalized railway system for many years, an Era System works well for them. It also helps that most of the British Isles have the same environment and terrain (within certain limits), which means engine design doesn't have to change much to cope with that.
For the UK, a small country with a nationalized railway system for many years, an Era System works well for them. It also helps that most of the British Isles have the same environment and terrain (within certain limits), which means engine design doesn't have to change much to cope with that.
My own hunch is that by "outline" they mean that you know at a glance that it is US or Canadian and not British. Maybe they do not mean this at all, but I'd give as an example the famous and prolific Mantua/Tyco die cast 2-8-2. Prototype? None, actually. It takes bits of this and bits of that, a Wabash 4-6-4 boiler (or so say some) with a cab and tender borrowed from their B&O (mostly) 4-6-2. But it is unquestionably American in outline which is why so many people bought it and happily ran it for decades and decades, often detailed to look more like a particular railroad's locomotive.
A recent NMRA Magazine cover article features a beautifully done kitbash of a Russian 2-10-0 to make it look Canadian Pacific. It does not replicate a CP 2-10-0 but it has so many CP features that it has the "outline"of a typical Canadian enclosed cab steamer.
Hattons seems to be trying very hard to do us a favor with this proposed "era" categorization that we have not felt needed to be done for us, or at least, not done in the way they seek, particularly if it isn't going to be done (or cannot be done) with an insider's knowledge and expertise yet be broadly applied. One problem with applying Hattons' "era" fixation to US models is that unlike, say, England's nationalization, there was no external authority blowing a whistle and announcing "OK it's repaint time" or whatever. And we have many hundreds of railroads to have to know about, and that does not even get into granular things like how PRR Lines West did things like 2-8-0 tenders versus PRR Lines East.
They can create all the era systems they like for the US but it won't tell you when the last 4-4-0 ran on the Chicago & Illinois Midland, when the last slatted pilot PRR K4 stopped running or had its pilot changed to solid cast steel, when the last Milwaukee Road passenger diesel got UP style paint and lettering, or when the last C&NW diesel with "Route of the 400s" on the side was retired or repainted. The "era" for Stephenson inside valve gear in the US was essentially just about the entire steam era, way beyond when it was an outdated technology. The info we need defies era - it is railroad specific.
Sure there are and were safety appliance rules and rule changes often with very precise dates rather than era. But even there, sometimes rule changes were delayed or for that matter, were violated. So, quick, when was the very last day for an archbar truck to be allowed in interchange? What day was the last violation of the archbar truck prohibition detected? Was even that car allowed to return to home rails? That sort of thing. Did some freight cars run during and after the entire ACI label "era" without ever receiving an ACI label? Some don't care, so an "era" system isn't needed. Some do care, so an "era" system is too generalized and unspecific. Some would like to be at least close. They might be helped, but it is still railroad specific isn't it - not "American railroads" but "THIS American railroad."
Dave Nelson
ATLANTIC CENTRALAgain, I still don't see where "in service from 1935 to 1958" in harder than "era III" or whatever? The manufacturers have this data these days. Even for the older generic stuff still in production.
In your example of a 58 Impala, I can see where this could be an issue for what you want if you know the difference. I, on the other hand, have some very early 1950's automobiles on my "1940's" layout, but to my eye they fit in fine. I wasn't around to see them when they were new so it doesn't bother me. Ignorance is bliss in this case! You will not find a 55 Bel Air or 57 Nomad on my layout though. Wasn't around when these were new either, but I know what I'm looking at there and to me they are different enough from the more era appropriate stuff to not fit in. Would stick out like a sore thumb to me.
I really don't think there is a right or wrong approach here. Just different strokes for different folks.