As far as the era issue, American manufacturers do have some era information included with their products. Atlas's website includes a bit of history about the outline...er...prototype.
Athearn Genesis UP GP38-2 have been made for era 2000-2010 and 2010- present, based upon the striping and details the locos have.
The GP40P-2 that was built for commuter service on the SP in the 1970s had passenger boiler equipment on its roof. The SP model version has this. The later 1990s UP acquired version properly has the passenger water equipment stripped off of its roof.
The Genesis GP7u painted for BAR in the 1990's is just that. The model that is painted for the 2000 Morristown and Erie (ex-BAR) version has patch outs, faded paint, and ditch lights added.
There are many others where the private nature of railroads create changes to prototypes that go beyond the typical generational changes that EMD or GE introduced.
Not sure how any of these specific railroad models of similar, or even the same, loco would fit into a uniform era bucket.
- Douglas
The most common "era" system I think is a European/Continental thing. I know Marklin and I think Preiser and some other German makers use it. For example, what British modellers call the "Between the Wars" period (1920's-30's), German makers call "Era II".
https://www.reynaulds.com/beginner.aspx
"Outline" isn't really that mysterious. I've been reading British model RR books since the 1970s so have seen it a lot. It just means the type of equipment. "American outline passenger cars are bigger than British outline cars." "A model railway built to US mainline outline might have trouble running British outline OO equipment, even though it's the same track gauge."
U.K. Era System
https://uk.hornby.com/catalogue/era
I operate Era 2 steam engines and Era 6 when running diesels.
David
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xboxtravis7992,Nah, no need to bring up the war. I'd just say that while the Brits invented railways, America perfected them. Then we'd get into a bigger argument (I kid! I kid!).As for Brits not liking our "brutish" engines, you won't find too many Yanks who like glorified tea kettles posing as locos. Well, outside of the Thomas fans, anyways... (the above was written as humor humour)dknelson,I think the closest we are going to get are some major milestones in US railroading:
wjstix,The problem is that the use of "outline" doesn't make any sense. That definition is not even in their dictionary (Cambridge or Oxford). Heck, in your example it would make more sense to omit the word entirely: "American passenger cars are bigger than British cars."
My goodness. SUbstitute "type" for outline. We sell not only European types but also American and Canadian types of trains. Is it really any more complex than that?
If you make cars, you start out with a prototype. If that gets approved you then make multiple models of that prototype. If you make model trains, you start with a "real" locomotive, then if it is approved, you make lots of models using that as a prototype.
My career was in electronics. we describe many semiconductors with "outline". A tiny surface mount chip might be an SOIC, small outline integrated circuit. Transistors come in various shapes, listed as TO92, TO220, TO3 etc. TO means transistor outline. That refers to the particular shape.
So right here in America, I use the word outline to describe the physical shape of things every day.
And it wasn't that long ago someone on this very forum was begging the manufacturers to come up with an era system.
DoughlessSheldon, did you ask them how they use the word "Prototype"?
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I know I am joining this discussion late, but my recollection is that "outline" was initially used to describe a model of a steam locomotive which was, in fact powered by an electric motor.
This was described as a "steam outline model" so as not to be confused with a live steam model. Presumably the same applied to clockwork powered models and to models of diesel locomotives powered by electric motors (so diesel outline model).
Presumably a model of an electric locomotive could be called an electric locomotive if desired, but was probably called an "electric outline model".
I am not familiar with using the term "outline" to describe the country of origin of a model (or its prototype) but I assume it is an extension of the practice I describe above...
Peter
"So having been exposed to “Outline” and “Prototype” and this forum being US based, then I think it is not only polite to use US terminology but I’m not going to get much response here when asking a question if I start banging on about, shunters, guards’ vans, wagons etc."
Not only is it polite, it's smart to use the locals language when you are trying to penetrate a market. Why should I expect you to know anything about American (including Canada and Mexico) railroading when you don't speak the language. I get the feeling that Hatton's views that subject the same way I do European railroading, exotic and a bit weird
BEAUSABRE Not only is it polite, it's smart to use the locals language when you are trying to penetrate a market. Why should I expect you to know anything about American (including Canada and Mexico) railroading when you don't speak the language. I get the feeling that Hatton's views that subject the same way I do European railroading, exotic and a bit weird
Hattons was very responsive to my question, and did ask what term we use here. I explained our use of the word "prototype", also admitting that like their term, our use of prototype was unique to our hobby and somewhat outside mainstream definitions for that word as well.
They were very interested in my feedback.
Also, thanks to all here for your comments and answers. I get it now, "outline", like the silhouette of a Big Boy is different from that of the Flying Scottsman.
Like the way we taught people the outline of aircraft and ships in WWII so they could identify friend or fow.
Sheldon
Paul3wjstix,The problem is that the use of "outline" doesn't make any sense.
Not my problem! I don't use it, I was just explaining how our British friends use it. It's like how the trucks under a freight car here are 'bogies under a goods wagon' over there, or railroad ties being 'railway sleepers'...or a truck that drives on a road being a 'lorry'.
There are a lot of phrases that we use everyday that, if you think about it, don't really make sense. (I think it was George Carlin who asked "why do we drive on a parkway and park in a driveway?")
There are also terms we use in model railroading like "stirrup steps" or "roofwalks" that real railroaders don't use.
Gidday Douglas,I’m certainly not answering for Trevor, but for me the definition of prototype depends on what hat I’m wearing. As a licenced aircraft maintenance engineer, (while not getting into the nitty gritty, in US parlance, Aviation and Powerplant Mechanic would be the closest equivalent), “prototype” means “the first of type, generally requiring a test programme and not excluding rectification if defects are found during said test programme. However, as a Model Railroader who attempts to model the American prototype, I use the additional US meaning, “an object/thing that is typical/the normal for a region/country. So having been exposed to “Outline” and “Prototype” and this forum being US based, then I think it is not only polite to use US terminology but I’m not going to get much response here when asking a question if I start banging on about, shunters, guards’ vans, wagons etc. English is an evolving language, which in itself is a two-edged sword, far quicker to write car than horseless carriage, but can be confusing when trying to use the correct nomenclature. Propeller, airscrew and helix are the same thing but it depends who I am communicating with as to which actual word I use. (Don't get me on about different accents!!!) I can quite understand why a person happily domiciled in the Heart of Georgia, Maryland, or in fact anywhere in the US, and who especially doesn’t have to correspond with us foreign types would have difficulties with foreign English phrasing/words. It’s just that I have to get with the programme!!
The issue is not a different word that means the same thing, like Bonnett, or Wagon, or Bloke; but using the word outline simply makes no sense.
A MODEL is already a reproduction of a real locomotive. If a minature loco is not a model, its a toy train. There is no such thing as an outline model.
Personally, I think using the word outline, prototype, types; are all redundant and confusing.
"Hatton's carries models of American, Canadian, and European locomotives".
Simple.
Its just another example of how this hobby is dominated by precision to the nth degree in so many ways. Since you're an engineer, I can see where you might see a distinction in the terms.
In my opinion, I find placing the built date or the date the car was modeled on tthe end of the box, as Tangent does (thank you Tangent) a lot more useful than an ambiguos "era". The life of an average car used in interchange is 40 years. That could span two, or three "eras". Think about the SD-40-2. First built in 1972, yet almost 50 years later, they are still on Class One rosters, and will be for a while. When the SD-40-2 first appeared, F-units, Alcos and even the GP-9s were the mainstays of many railroads. Now, its the SD 70 something or the latest widenosed, ditch lit something from GE. Yet the SD-40-2 has its feet firmly in yet another era.
If someone wants to pull open ended wooden coaches behind his SD-40-2 or his GE AC4400, that's fine with me but, I won't. Same with freight cars. Don't try to pass off a Pullman Standard 5344 cubic foot boxcar as an FMC 5347 cu. ft. boxcar. Yes they're both from the IPD "era" and they're both 50 footers, but the same thing, they ain't. Fortunately, in the 1980s, we had a model railroad media that educated those that wanted to learn and know, about the differences of that which we model. We don't have that now.
An era system is not an accurate indicator of the life span of railroad equipment, its an approximation that for me does not work. Give me a build date and I will take it from there. Again, thank you Tangent.
NorthBrit Trevor has beaten me to answering the query and answered it well. The 'Era' system works very well here in the U.K.. Any model now made says on the box when the real one ran. Many items made ran in different eras, so on the box would say Eras 3,4,5 & 6 (for example). If a person was modelling era 6 then they know that item is suitable. Modelling Era 8, then the item is unsuitable. As I say, the system works well here and saves people asking the question 'is it suitable for their layout.' David
Trevor has beaten me to answering the query and answered it well.
The 'Era' system works very well here in the U.K..
Any model now made says on the box when the real one ran. Many items made ran in different eras, so on the box would say Eras 3,4,5 & 6 (for example).
If a person was modelling era 6 then they know that item is suitable. Modelling Era 8, then the item is unsuitable.
As I say, the system works well here and saves people asking the question 'is it suitable for their layout.'
The use of 'prototype' to mean 'real railroad equipment' in modeling is because the real thing provides the dimensions, details, blueprints, etc. for the smaller replicas. It is the 'original reference' just as a prototype in manufacturing is an early or initial example.
We bear this out by calling a good model 'prototypical' (meaning it looks or acts similar to the real thing). On the other hand, we should be careful using a term like 'American prototype' because that refers to the reference source of the models, not the models themselves as 'American outline' would do. The semantics might be clearer in the case of freelanced or 'foobie' models, which have no "prototype" but are clearly models reminiscent of a particular country, era, etc.
Now, I confess the use of 'outline' is a bit excessive in the sense other posters mention, in the sense a phrase like 'precision crafted motorcar' is... the sort of 'Wardour Street' gallery-owner talk that Fowler didn't approve of. On the other hand it is certainly an unambiguous technical term as the British have come to use it.