SpaceMouseBut no one would call that art.
Like I said before, art is the art of promotion, by someone and not neccisarily the artist.
maxman It is a hobby, just like builders of model cars, planes and ships. As are those folks who restore old cars. Or weekend golfers or bowlers.
I don't think of anyone would would refer to my golf game as art. I play scenic golf. I hit the ball, and stroll through the woods. I hit the ball and go fishing in the creek with my fishing wedge. But no one would call that art.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
Oops! I didn't remember if I had already posted.
I would challenge Mr. Ron to better define "art" first.
I restore old houses for a living, and I design houses for a living. I help my clients decorate their homes as well. All things considered decorative arts. I have studied the history of Architecture and interior decorating. Here is a sample or two of my work:
But a lot of what considered "fine art" over the centuries is crap in my opinion. Just like not all Architecture is good.
I don't really care if model railroading is considered art or not.
Again, I consider "art" to be a highly subjective and poorly defined term.......
Art goes hand in hand with "enlightenment", another highly subjective and poorly defined idea.
Sheldon
Bayfield Transfer RailwayThe original post wasn't just about "is model railroading art," but "should it be recognized as art by the general public" which is, in point of fact, a different question
No, model railroading is not an art. It is a hobby, just like builders of model cars, planes and ships. As are those folks who restore old cars. Or weekend golfers or bowlers.
I'm sure that those builders can turn out beautiful finished things, and the weekend warriors can sometimes get a beautiful score. But I'm also pretty sure that none of them have a debate about whether or not what they do can be classified as "art". Seems only us model railroaders choose to have that discussion.
And if we choose to have this discussion in a public venue, then we deserve all the derision and mockery we receive.
There was a gentleman a few years back who was determined to help promote the hobby as an art to the general public, but I don't know whatever happened to him. He was specifically talking about the modelers whose work makes your jaw drop.
I get what Ron is talking about, though. You see some folks who do minature scenes of some sort and they're holding shows in galleries where you never see model railroaders get that same sort of recognition. Does it really matter? No, but it would be nice if it happened.
Jim
Mr Ron True, but not the recognization that comes to artists, musicians and other art practioners; especially the monetary rewards that come with art.
True, but not the recognization that comes to artists, musicians and other art practioners; especially the monetary rewards that come with art.
Oops.
^^^
That should be www.bostontype.com.
New here - no way to edit?
www.bostontype.com
I've given quite a bit of thought to this subject. It's a good conversation.
I fall on the side that, without doubt, model railroading is an art. My example is that if, instead of building a small model of our town, I had painted it on canvas, no one would doubt it was art (although not necessarily good art. ;)).
And I noticed early on how much of my layout works starts on essentially a 3D canvas of white plaster products.
So I was jazzed when my layout and story was recently was featured in our local paper.
More about my work here:
May I respectfully point out we're drifting a bit.The original post wasn't just about "is model railroading art," but "should it be recognized as art by the general public" which is, in point of fact, a different question.And my opinion remains unchanged. Model railroading may or may not be art, but I could not care less if the general public acknowledges it as such.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
This topic has been bounced around in miniature painting forums as well.
Basically this is what the convention is for when a hobby becomes art: If the finished result can make the jaws drop of people that are not involved in the hobby, then it is art.
So, this is about as good as I can do at miniature figure painting:
Pretty good, but not art.
This on the other hand...
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Trainman440 The definition of art is very controversial...technically, everything we make is art. But imo there is a limit to when model railroading no longer is art. For example, I think we can all agree that scratchbuilt freelanced engines on a layout with custom scenery is most definitely art, since its custom, and someone used creativity in order to achieve such a piece. I can even extend to the way someone consists the cars behind the train, or the speed at which one runs a train as a form of art, since it requires creativity. However, would laying bachmann EZ track in a circle (not in a creative manner), with an unmodified engine with the same consist of cars as printed on the train set box (unmodified) at full speed still be considered art? Where does one draw the line?Charles
The definition of art is very controversial...technically, everything we make is art.
But imo there is a limit to when model railroading no longer is art.
For example, I think we can all agree that scratchbuilt freelanced engines on a layout with custom scenery is most definitely art, since its custom, and someone used creativity in order to achieve such a piece.
I can even extend to the way someone consists the cars behind the train, or the speed at which one runs a train as a form of art, since it requires creativity.
However, would laying bachmann EZ track in a circle (not in a creative manner), with an unmodified engine with the same consist of cars as printed on the train set box (unmodified) at full speed still be considered art?
Where does one draw the line?Charles
You have said some good things there. Chip and Tom, at least, will remember having this discussion in about early 2006-or-so, and after three or four contentious and increasingly acrimonious back and forth pages, the thread did indeed get locked. I recall a certain Australian live steam operator, very accomplished as a scratch builder of transit rail interurban vehices, holding steadfastly, and eventually nastily, that nothing much about MRR is artistic. The heavy majority of us disagreed with him.
If it is creative, not necessarily original, it is art. If it must be conceptualized and built, it is art. It might be highly technical and demanding, and it really helps to situate it if it IS original, or unique, but it is art.
It makes it a lot easier for the fussiest of us, when declaring something to be art, if the item is flamboyant, if it obviously has a lot of time and creativity invested, and if it is appealing. Again, not necessarily widely appealing, just enough to garner the interest of even a single onlooker.
A model train set, once put together, is an expression, a statement, by the person generating it, even if it is entirely typical. If your three year old presents you and the missus with a nice finger painting, one not unlike dozens you've seen previously, why should it not also be art? It would not have been presented to you without its conceptualization, without some vision, and without the ability, desire, and persistence to effect it and to place it, once completed satisfactorily, into your hands.
To Dave Nelson's point about derision or mockery of the hobby:1) If someone mocks me for my hobby, it says nothing about my hobby, but a lot about them.2) I have an ample supply of middle fingers, as well as a list of parts of my body they may kiss, indexed for their safety and convenience in alphabetical, geographical, and anatomical order.I'm an introverted misanthrope. The less I have to do with other people, the happier I am.
Also, if Rod Stewart walked out of the interview, the next interviewer would take a very different approach.
George Selios has made a work of art with his Franklin and South Manchester. I have two scenes from my layout they people have seen and thought they were real. That's enough for me.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I'd agree with Michael M. that most modelers do not care if their own efforts, or he efforts of our most accomplished counterparts, are regarded as "art" (and praised as good art) by the world at large, or in particular by the "art world." But I'd not go so far as to say that most of us don't care what others think or say about the hobby. Nobody wants to be laughed at or made into a figure of fun which is why Rod Stewart gets so angry and even defensive in a TV interview you can find on YouTube where the host of the show belittles the hobby and the audience seems to join in the mirth.
Most modelers do bristle, at least inwardly, particularly when the entire hobby -- and I have actually read this and heard it said -- is characterized as weirdly sick and inappropriately infantile or even as primarily a perverse means for old men to lure children. Then we do care what others think or say because it is an actual attack. Not to be confused with ignorant indifference.
The art world in general has become very accustomed in recent years to accepting all manner of things as "art" that decades ago would not have been accepted, and the art versus craft distinction is getting harder to make. Dioramas are among those things that are now regarded as art. I have seen "art books" about dioramas that include photos of some of the best model railroads. If the art world comes to regard some forms of model railroad accomplishment as art it won't be because we'd like them to. They'll decide.
Regardless of whether we care about what others say or think in terms of model railroading being art or craft, our desire to enjoy the hobby satisfies something in us that is the artistic impulse or very much like it: the need/desire to create, and to find and share creative solutions to problems and challenges.
Dave Nelson
This topic periodically resurfaces.Short answer... most model railroaders don't give a hoot one way or the other. Even if I built a model railroad whose perfection and artistry was John Allen to the Malcom Furlow power, I would be totally uniterested in what the greater world thought of it.Same reason, really, that I'm utterly uninterested in the NMRA Achievement Awards. I just do not care.And I think across the sample population, more modelers agree with my attitude than disagree.
Mr RonPeople in general just don't seem to equate a fine model as a form of art.
SpaceMouseBut that doesn't mean that modelers that manifest something resembling real life, and for that matter, rivet-counters, aren't artists. And we have many of those type artists here on this site.
Agreed ↑ ↑ ↑
There are several that contribute to the Weekend Photo Fun thread that are, I believe, not only skilled craftsmen, but artists.
I won't be accused of being either one, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying myself playing with trains.
York1 John
Is creating a scene with a model railroad in it a work of art?
To me 'Art is in the eye of the beholder'.
David
To the world you are someone. To someone you are the world
I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought
When this subject has come (fairly often) in the past, seems like the concensus is that model railroading is a craft, not an art - or perhaps at best, folk art (kinda like handmade duck decoys). I suppose an entirely handmade brass steam engine could be considered a work of art perhaps, but I'm not sure just rearranging or adding details to an existing RTR product really could be art.
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Modeling the PRR & NYC in HO
Youtube Channel: www.youtube.com/@trainman440
Instagram (where I share projects!): https://www.instagram.com/trainman440
Of course. Malcom Furlow was an artist in RL. And he modeled his fantastical vision.
But that doesn't mean that modelers that manifest something resembling real life, and for that matter, rivet-counters, aren't artists. And we have many of those type artists here on this site.
Track fiddlerI do believe some already have. John Allen being one of them and there is more.
Malcolm Furlow is the name I think of when I consider someone that made an art out of model trains.
This topic, in the good old days, would have been locked.
[:)Art entails picturing a scene, a sculpture (bridge or structure) or a layout and bringing that scene etc. into manifestation whether that includes using a kit or is sctratchbuilt. It can either be static like a diorama or fully functional like a operators' layout.
Granted if a layout stops expanding like a plywood empire that is all the modeler wants, it might be considered minimalistic art.
Mr RonI would like to see top modelers being recognized for their work by a worldwide organization.
That is pretty well covered by the NMRA's (a worldwide organization) Acheivement Program. Not everyone's cup of tea, but becoming a Master Model Railroader (MMR) recognizes the skills and craft of model railroading through a well defined program.
The argument over art and model railroading will likely never be resolved, as there are many who want nothing to do with the term "art" despite it pretty clearly applying based on the creativity and skills involved. But I'd also argue that your definition is too exclusive. Even a newbie teenage model railroader trying to turn a 4x8 into a layout is developing the creative skills needed to carry on the art of model railroading, whether they desire recognition or not, is in part an artist.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
You could argue it is multiple forms of art. From painting to sculpture(5e scenery as a 3D picture) to story telling ( placement of figures and details to tell a story). Howard Zane refers to it as an art form. I do believe sellios does too. I know others refer to it as moving 3D pictures and semi live history. ithimk it gets missed as a art form by the general public cause two reasons
they still see it as a toy because they don't get to see the well done layouts. Just the usual train set
they can't place it into one category and get confused over that
shane
A pessimist sees a dark tunnel
An optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel
A realist sees a frieght train
An engineer sees three idiots standing on the tracks stairing blankly in space
If i were standing next to you in your train room, were gawking at your 'world', and i said to you...
'Wow!, your very mechanical!" - that would imply im either crazy, a bad user of english, i only see one facet of the many that make up your layout (naivetee).
But if i said...
"Wow! Your very artistic!" - that would imply imagination, creativity, on your part.
I cant think of any other way to aptly describe what we do. Some of you truely do craft masterpieces. And only in the form of 'art', do we find masterpieces and the like. Something that truely lends itself to this hobby.
You may think mechanical, electrical, etc., but yet you are still using your hands and mind to create/build something. Nothing any different than a master of painting does. Or a sculpter.
Even the Mona Lisa was a reproduction of a 'prototype'. How is that different from painting and decalling a GP35 for a unique road? (besides the price tag )
I have no problem describing Model Railroading as an art form.
PMR
We have notable examples of known artist in our hobby, as mentioned above. In the area of traditional art, there countless people who call themselves artists, and a great many who are very artistic but dont make anything if it.
I see so much art on this forum, and enjoy it greatly. I include those who have perfected technical skills in mechanical, electronic, building, and other areas that the casual untrained eye would never conceive. Dan