ricktrains4824 davefr I usually refuse any option to deal direct with the manufacturer since that's not who I bought the product from. If the reseller refuses then it's pretty simple. I simply put the sale into dispute with my payment sources. (either Paypal or a cc company). They generally refund my purchase price and tell me to make the item available for pickup by the resller's courier. First - You technically bought it from the manufacturer, just simply through their assigned "middleman." Store did not make said product to sell, nor did they "purchase all rights" to said product. Most manufacturers use assigned "middlemen" (i.e. stores) to deal with 100's buyers for them. (Imagine trying to buy everything "direct" every single time. How long is your hold time???) Second - The seller's clearly stated policy is that if defective, contact manufacturer. If Paypal or CC refuses to enforce the clearly stated rule and instead sides with the buyer, then Paypal or CC company can be sued by seller for breach of contract. As can you, the buyer. Don't like that seller's "all defects go through manufacturer" policy? Then don't buy from that seller. I also find it odd that, from the beginning of this thread, simple questions about the issue have never been answered, nor have simple suggestions been followed. If they were, it could have avoided this whole fiasco...
davefr I usually refuse any option to deal direct with the manufacturer since that's not who I bought the product from. If the reseller refuses then it's pretty simple. I simply put the sale into dispute with my payment sources. (either Paypal or a cc company). They generally refund my purchase price and tell me to make the item available for pickup by the resller's courier.
I usually refuse any option to deal direct with the manufacturer since that's not who I bought the product from.
If the reseller refuses then it's pretty simple. I simply put the sale into dispute with my payment sources. (either Paypal or a cc company). They generally refund my purchase price and tell me to make the item available for pickup by the resller's courier.
First - You technically bought it from the manufacturer, just simply through their assigned "middleman." Store did not make said product to sell, nor did they "purchase all rights" to said product.
Most manufacturers use assigned "middlemen" (i.e. stores) to deal with 100's buyers for them. (Imagine trying to buy everything "direct" every single time. How long is your hold time???)
Second - The seller's clearly stated policy is that if defective, contact manufacturer.
If Paypal or CC refuses to enforce the clearly stated rule and instead sides with the buyer, then Paypal or CC company can be sued by seller for breach of contract. As can you, the buyer.
Don't like that seller's "all defects go through manufacturer" policy? Then don't buy from that seller.
I also find it odd that, from the beginning of this thread, simple questions about the issue have never been answered, nor have simple suggestions been followed. If they were, it could have avoided this whole fiasco...
1. No, "Technically" he did buy it from the reseller. That's where $'s changed hands and that's the basis for a legal purchase contract. (offer, acceptance and consideration). This was not a consignment sale.
2. This reseller's T's and C's do not clearly state that defective product must go to the manufacturer. They do state this "Limit one replacement per purchase. In some cases, TrainWorld may choose to test an item prior to shipping. If a replacement product is tested and found to be free of defect, TrainWorld will not replace the item for a second time."
3. If the reseller accepts Paypal as a payment method they agree to Paypal's T's and C's which provides provisions for customer returns/disputes. (ie) Paypals policies take precedance when Paypal is the payment method. Same for credit cards.
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
It may be a bad motor, especially if it made noise. Decoders usually don't make a motor noisy.
I would always expect to return it to the manufacturer if its a factory defect. Due to the nature of the hobby, many more retailers get screwed over by many more buyers than the other way around.
OP could simply buy another loco of the same kind, then swap out a bad decoder he had on hand, then claim the retailer sold him a loco with a bad decoder, screwing over the retailer because its the easiest one to screw over.
- Douglas
If I ever buy a brand new product that arrives damaged or defective, then I expect the reseller to take it back within 30 days. (you need to be prepared to pay the return shipping but many resellers provide a prepaid label). I usually refuse any option to deal direct with the manufacturer since that's not who I bought the product from.
If the reseller refuses then it's pretty simple. I simply put the sale into dispute with my payment sources. (either Paypal or a cc company). They generally refund my purchase price and tell me to make the item available for pickup by the resller's courier. Most of these small online resllers accept Paypal and it's very easy to win a "not as described" claim. I believe Paypal even provides the shipping label.
For what it's worth Modeltrainstuff.com has been wonderful with returns. There's another company in the "Midwest" that's been absolutely horrible. Paypal had to intervene.
Ok.
2 things -
1 - Have you tested the unit with a DC power pack on a test track?
2 - Have you performed a factory reset of the decoder?
SeeYou190 rrebell Well the engine started to do the same thing again, makes me wonder if they accually did anything. That stinks. Sorry for all the problems you are having. -Kevin
rrebell Well the engine started to do the same thing again, makes me wonder if they accually did anything.
That stinks.
Sorry for all the problems you are having.
-Kevin
rrebellWell the engine started to do the same thing again, makes me wonder if they accually did anything.
Living the dream.
Well the engine started to do the same thing again, makes me wonder if they accually did anything.
Well I never got the e-mail they promest but got the engine back. They replaced the board and decoder. It runs fine but is noisy compared to my other two of same item. Maybe running it in will help.
maxman rrebell Well haven't gotten confirmation of delevery yet, who knows how long things take these days. Did you not get a tracking number when you made the shipment?
rrebell Well haven't gotten confirmation of delevery yet, who knows how long things take these days.
Well haven't gotten confirmation of delevery yet, who knows how long things take these days.
Did you not get a tracking number when you made the shipment?
From the west coast to Philly, that could take a few days........
I don't know about recently, but in the past their service department was not so busy this time of year.
So hopefully turnaround is quick.
Years ago when I sent a few things back, shipping was quick......but I'm only two hours from Philly.........
Sheldon
I don't mean to "pick on" any manufacturer, just my observations.
How many count the "Always Blown Headlights" in the original Genesis line a "defect"? With the LED availablity then and up until they finally gave in, I would include that as a "defect" in the design.
My perpetually defective BLI is the infamous "Chuff Sensor" issue they had in their steam loco's for a long time, due to the design using a Reed switch sensor.
The DOA was a unrepairable AC6000 that was refunded. (Blown Paragon Decoder, fried motor, plus other issues.)
Another Steamer and a second AC6000 have had zero issues.
As far as the poor workmanship screw never included, it was covered under warranty, but the LHS I purchased from simply gave me some screws that were the right size no charge next time I went there. (Saved having to ship for a screw worth maybe 10 cents tops....)
But, most manufacturers have a dud every now and then.
Someone said something about contribution and in that vein I have noticed that even companys that have never offered something in your era will eventualy do something. I got a bunch of MTH hoppers in my time period of 1939, we will see if the new owners will continue this trend, also Rapido is now ofering boxcars in my timeframe.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL Rich, it is just the luck of the draw, all these companies have similar quality, and similar failure rates. I'm not picking on Broadway, I'm demonstrating that in the big picture Bachmann has a similar record. I agree with you, Sheldon, and in fact, that was my point. There is nothing inherently wrong with either BLI or Bachmann. In fact , one of my very favorite steamers is a Bachmann Spectrum 2-6-6-2. Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Rich, it is just the luck of the draw, all these companies have similar quality, and similar failure rates. I'm not picking on Broadway, I'm demonstrating that in the big picture Bachmann has a similar record.
Rich, it is just the luck of the draw, all these companies have similar quality, and similar failure rates.
I'm not picking on Broadway, I'm demonstrating that in the big picture Bachmann has a similar record.
I agree with you, Sheldon, and in fact, that was my point. There is nothing inherently wrong with either BLI or Bachmann. In fact , one of my very favorite steamers is a Bachmann Spectrum 2-6-6-2.
Rich
I just love those little baby mallets, there are five of them here.
gmpullman I just glanced at my roster and found that I have at least 65 BLI locomotives. Of those I have had some issues. I kept notes and off hand I'd say my "need to repair" rate runs around 10%. In every case Broadway service department has been helpful with either sending me the repair parts (usually faster than having them perform the work) or, in only one or two cases, replacing the loco with another one. Even out of warranty they have been good at helping with repairs. I had a couple of PRR 2-10-0s with cracked axle gears. These were ten-year old engines. They gave me several options and I chose to send them the wheel/axle assemblies and they installed new gears and returned them to me at no charge. I only paid postage to Florida. Just this week I needed a pair of handrails for a Mikado I bought over five years ago. They are sending me replacement handrails at no charge. All three of my P5as needed new motors and decoders. Again they sent replacement parts and I made the simple repair myself. No need to return the bad parts. Now here's something I haven't seen mentioned about Broadway — and that's their "Refurb Outlet" store. I don't know of another manufacturer that sells their repaired products, at about 40% off retail, on the open market. I wonder how many of these engines have defects that may go unnoticed or not properly repaired only to cause grief for the buyer down the road? I wonder if this increases the percieved repair rate? Over the years there has to be a pretty good number of "refurbs" out there. In my opinion it seems like BLI has had a run of bad luck with the Paragon 3 decoder. Weather an inherent design flaw or perhaps a manufacturing problem it seems like their reliability took a hit with the introduction of these decoders. They are now offering the P-4 version which hints at some "comprehensive bug fixes" plus a built in Go Pack (capacitor) which really shouldn't be necessary in most cases but apparently someone in marketing believes it to be necessary. Still, I'm glad that Broadway has contributed to the hobby many locomotives and rolling stock that would have otherwise been shunned by other manufacturers. By far, the majority of my BLI engines, some going on 20 years old, have never given me one bit of trouble. Regards, Ed
I just glanced at my roster and found that I have at least 65 BLI locomotives. Of those I have had some issues. I kept notes and off hand I'd say my "need to repair" rate runs around 10%. In every case Broadway service department has been helpful with either sending me the repair parts (usually faster than having them perform the work) or, in only one or two cases, replacing the loco with another one.
Even out of warranty they have been good at helping with repairs. I had a couple of PRR 2-10-0s with cracked axle gears. These were ten-year old engines. They gave me several options and I chose to send them the wheel/axle assemblies and they installed new gears and returned them to me at no charge. I only paid postage to Florida.
Just this week I needed a pair of handrails for a Mikado I bought over five years ago. They are sending me replacement handrails at no charge.
All three of my P5as needed new motors and decoders. Again they sent replacement parts and I made the simple repair myself. No need to return the bad parts.
Now here's something I haven't seen mentioned about Broadway — and that's their "Refurb Outlet" store. I don't know of another manufacturer that sells their repaired products, at about 40% off retail, on the open market. I wonder how many of these engines have defects that may go unnoticed or not properly repaired only to cause grief for the buyer down the road? I wonder if this increases the percieved repair rate? Over the years there has to be a pretty good number of "refurbs" out there.
In my opinion it seems like BLI has had a run of bad luck with the Paragon 3 decoder. Weather an inherent design flaw or perhaps a manufacturing problem it seems like their reliability took a hit with the introduction of these decoders.
They are now offering the P-4 version which hints at some "comprehensive bug fixes" plus a built in Go Pack (capacitor) which really shouldn't be necessary in most cases but apparently someone in marketing believes it to be necessary.
Still, I'm glad that Broadway has contributed to the hobby many locomotives and rolling stock that would have otherwise been shunned by other manufacturers. By far, the majority of my BLI engines, some going on 20 years old, have never given me one bit of trouble.
Regards, Ed
I agree, Broadway has made a great contribution to the hobby overall.
As has Bachmann and others.
There is no question that Broadway, and Bachmann under the guidence of Lee Riley, ventured into offering steam locos and electric locos that others would have been unwilling to risk bringing to market.
As it applies to my modeling interests, most of the BLI catalog is outside what I need or want. The seven I have represent all but a few that would fit my theme.
I remain slightly disappointed tha Broadway did not continue to offer DC locomotives without sound. And I still feel they could have done a btter job with the Mikes and Pacifics. But I was happy to get my two READING T-1's in the "stealth line".
My other Broadway locos have simply had their decoders and sound systems removed. In fact, they have had their tenders completely replaced so they better fit the ATLANTIC CENTRAL family look.
I understand that a great many modelers enjoy onboard sound, and I agree that DCC is a necessary aspect of that, and is generally the best control choice for many modelers.
I chose a different path for a number of reasons.
So, I guess its good for me that Broadway has not offered more locos that are of interest to me, it saves me a few rewiring projects...
Having worked in this business, having repaired model trains for a living at one point, and having some background in manufacturing, I don't get too upset when products don't work - they can always be fixed, replaced or other wise delt with, no matter what brand.
Alton Junction
Had one BLI, defective, fixable but I will just e-bay it as defective. One MTH, works perfect except for the automatic couplers, they work but I don't find them reliable. 12 Bachmann's (recently bought), all work perfect except the one I sent in for waranty.
ricktrains4824As that is missing a screw, but not really a defect.
Correct, that is a workmanship error. It still should be covered by factory warranty.
richhotrainLet's not be too quick to jump all over BLI.
I owned one BLI locomotive, a 2-6-6-4, and it never ran. It was returned, and they refunded my money.
I have two BLI freight cars, both NYC steel boxcars. These were a major pain to bring to my specifcations for operation, but that is not a BLI issue. It does prevent any future sales to me.
richhotrain Let's not be too quick to jump all over BLI. Here is my experience. I have owned 9 BLI steamers, only 2 were returned for repairs, essentially the trailing trucks with weak springs on a 2-10-2 and a 2-10-4. The repairs were successful. I have owned 7 Bachmann Spectrum steamers, 3 were returned, and Bachmann opted not to repair them, claiming no parts, and then gave me a choice of locomotives that I did not want. I have never owned a Bachmann diesel, but I have owned 18 BLI diesels, none of which have had any defects. Rich
Let's not be too quick to jump all over BLI.
Here is my experience.
I have owned 9 BLI steamers, only 2 were returned for repairs, essentially the trailing trucks with weak springs on a 2-10-2 and a 2-10-4. The repairs were successful.
I have owned 7 Bachmann Spectrum steamers, 3 were returned, and Bachmann opted not to repair them, claiming no parts, and then gave me a choice of locomotives that I did not want.
I have never owned a Bachmann diesel, but I have owned 18 BLI diesels, none of which have had any defects.
And it is the luck of the draw if you bought a Bachmann engine at the wrong point in tme when all the "replacements" had been sold or given away......
Maybe BLI does more in terms of parts and repairs, rather than replacing stuff, maybe not. I don't have any hard data. But they did not have parts for my two defective Mikados? My other 5 Broadway locos, all steam, are very good.
Bachmann did not always have a new loco to send me, one time they had the loco, but not in the correct roadname. They sent me the new loco, and my original body shells. Yes I had to do the swap.....
Several items I returned to Bachmann were used items I bought cheap, and was willing to pay their flat service fee to get repaired or replaced. Two of which were doodlebugs, In two cases they sent me the whole doodlebug/trailer coach combo because they did not have the right roadname.
In my case, I planned to repaint some of these doodlebugs anyway........
Other than Proto2000 cracked gears, I have never had a warranty issue with any brand of diesel (not counting the doodlebugs). LifeLike gave me about 20 locos worth of geared axles decades ago - when those ran out I happily bought some Athearn gears.
I don't have any BLI diesels and the only Bachmann diesels I have are 44 tonners and 70 tonners, and the gas/electric doodlebugs. Save those, all my Bachmann locos are steam, about 40 of them......three returned and replaced.
I will not disagree, in a perfect world these locos are always available for replacement, and/or parts are available to repair them. But you were part of the most recent conversation about that problem.....
And again, it is the luck of the draw. Which locos you are interested in, which locos have known issues, which locos end up being exceptional, when you buy them, all plays a roll in your personal experiance with each company.
Why don't I have Bachmann diesels other than those few special ones? Limited selection, better drives not introducted until after I had bought what I wanted, lack of detail, BUT mainly, Proto2000, Intermountain and Genesis already had most everything I was looking for.
I don't have any Atlas, KATO, Stewart or Bowser diesels either........ all great products just not on my "need list".
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Interestingly, as a percentage of models I own, I have had way more "defects" with Broadway than with Bachmann......
Interestingly, as a percentage of models I own, I have had way more "defects" with Broadway than with Bachmann......
Ditto. I own exactly 3 BLI units - 2 have had a defect. (Not counting the one totally DOA with no hope of saving. In that case, I have 4, with 3 defects...) So my "avereage" from them, on defects, is 66% (or 75)!!!!!
(I do not own any BLI railcars.)
I own a lot more from Bachmann, and had exactly 2 defects. (One a lighting wire was not connected [or broke off in transit], one a motor had bad brushes from the factory. I'm not counting the one where they missed a screw inside that held the rear gearbox in place in a Spectrum unit, as that is missing a screw, but not really a defect per say....)
Bachmann average is under 10%, count railcars as well, less than 5%. (This counts Bachmann units I was given and tested and passed on to a friends son who likes trains.)
And the one BLI - a 2-8-2 Mike, was a really bad design flaw creating a recurring defect. It has been fixed, twice by them, twice by me, and is again suffering from the exact same issue. It's currently sitting on a shelf, relegated to the "round to it" fix list. (And has been on said "round to it" list for a few years now...)
OvermodA standard scam manufacturers use is to put a notice in the packaging saying DO NOT RETURN THIS PRODUCT TO THE STORE -- call our customer service or return for warranty instead. Do not fall for any version of this scam. Any time I have ever tried it, I have gotten lies, runarounds, and extra proposed costs (not counting my time).
I have had the opposite experience.
I purchased two products from Home Depot that were defective and had "Do Not Return To Store" instructions.
One was a Moen shower fixture, and one was a Ryobi power tool.
Both of these were handled immediately by the manufacturer to my complete satisfaction.
rrebell I hear you Sheldon. Glad you added the details of how they handle things. Item has been on its way, we shall see what happens.
I hear you Sheldon. Glad you added the details of how they handle things. Item has been on its way, we shall see what happens.
No worries, I have a moderate amount of Bachmann and have had to return a few things for service or replacement. I have also bought parts for non warranty repairs on used stuff I have bought, and for kit bashing.
So I have a fair amount of experience with their service/parts department.
rrebell They said to contact Bachmann and engine has been sent, we shall see.
They said to contact Bachmann and engine has been sent, we shall see.
Your very worst outcome will be that Bachmann cannot fix it or replace it do to lack of parts or new inventory.
In that case Bachmann will offer you a list of items of equal or greater value as a replacement.
Because of how I think about this stuff, I would have already placed an order for a replacement while they might still be available, then sort out the problem in whatever way becomes necessary.
Worst case, sell what they send you on Ebay and possibly come out ahead.......
My "problem" with on-line shopping for my model railroad is not the large, single, one time purchase, but the little maintenance items items like one package of special Kedee coulers or a tube of GOO or small detail parts. Stuff I used to go to a, "now-gone", local hobby shop for and then look around for other stuff. Fun. It's too expensive ordering these little items one at a time and pay all the different shipping charges, which are uisuslly higher than the single item. Now I make a list and try to order everthing at once from a single seller, if possible. But now projects and repairs are delayd until it becomes worth ordering. I wish a store like Hobby Lobby could partner with, and order from, Walthers with store pick-up, like the hobby shop used to do, with no shipping charge added to the cost. Used to take less than a week. Now I vented. Thanks.
Overmod Doughless ...they deny the return request under this broad statement from their policy: Returned items must be in new and resalable condition with all original boxes and packing. That's not what that provision is supposed to mean. That says the original packaging is there, and that you didn't damage or change the item. You can as easily say the item was not received in expected condition, cancel the charge, or threaten legal action until you receive the serviceable item promised.
Doughless ...they deny the return request under this broad statement from their policy: Returned items must be in new and resalable condition with all original boxes and packing.
That's not what that provision is supposed to mean. That says the original packaging is there, and that you didn't damage or change the item.
You can as easily say the item was not received in expected condition, cancel the charge, or threaten legal action until you receive the serviceable item promised.
Ok, not sure that all of the representatives at TW understand the legalities of it.
Having dealt with TWs Return Portal application system, there is a series of questions that must be completed before they will accept a return and they encourage you to contact the manufacturer if it is a manufacturer problem.
As I said originally, contact TW and they may take it back, but be prepared to contact Bachmann.