Oh Bachmann said it was fixed and it is proubly a brken wire from motor replacement but by this time I was done. As far as TW is concerned, they buy so much from Bachmann that I am sure they will at least break even.
And it seems to me, that, if Bachmann (or any manufacturer for that matter) cannot provide warranty service, they would be legally obligated to refund all expenses involved in the purchase and warranty attempt of said defective product.
Warranty provides "Repair or replacement" of defective items, and if neither is an option, then no choice but to buy said defective item back.
Otherwise, the manufacturer best have a good attorney "on-call" to assist them breaking their end of the warranty contract with zero alternative options.
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
richhotrain I have had some good experiences with Bachmann in terms of purchasing new steam locomotives that proved problem-free. But, I have never had a good experience with Bachmann repairing or replacing a steam locomotive. Rich
I have had some good experiences with Bachmann in terms of purchasing new steam locomotives that proved problem-free. But, I have never had a good experience with Bachmann repairing or replacing a steam locomotive.
Rich
I have to admit, things seem to have been better in the service department back in the heyday of the Spectrum Line when Lee Riley was in charge of product developement.
They had more product in stock and quickly replaced those items they could not easily fix.
Not sure what the future holds for any of these companies with even less inventory of product or parts?
But like I advised the OP early on, I would have just bought another one then had the return/repair battle.
But that may be my one character flaw, an unwillingness to "settle" fo less than what I want, as long as I can afford it.
Sheldon
Alton Junction
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL rrebell Well it looks like we are nearing the end of a saga. Last return from Bachmann was DOA, only moved an inch maybe, proubly from broken wire as they replaced motor. Train World is taking it back and issuing store credit and return shipping label of original item with the damaged box and paint pealing off the handrails (all done by Bachmann at their repair shops). This was really all on Bachmann and they never offered a replacement or other offer. Sorry to hear Bachmann was not able to make it right, that is disappointing. Sounds to me like they may have skilled labor issues........ Sheldon No wonder that Bachmann prefers to just replace a loco. Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL rrebell Well it looks like we are nearing the end of a saga. Last return from Bachmann was DOA, only moved an inch maybe, proubly from broken wire as they replaced motor. Train World is taking it back and issuing store credit and return shipping label of original item with the damaged box and paint pealing off the handrails (all done by Bachmann at their repair shops). This was really all on Bachmann and they never offered a replacement or other offer. Sorry to hear Bachmann was not able to make it right, that is disappointing. Sounds to me like they may have skilled labor issues........ Sheldon
rrebell Well it looks like we are nearing the end of a saga. Last return from Bachmann was DOA, only moved an inch maybe, proubly from broken wire as they replaced motor. Train World is taking it back and issuing store credit and return shipping label of original item with the damaged box and paint pealing off the handrails (all done by Bachmann at their repair shops). This was really all on Bachmann and they never offered a replacement or other offer.
Well it looks like we are nearing the end of a saga. Last return from Bachmann was DOA, only moved an inch maybe, proubly from broken wire as they replaced motor. Train World is taking it back and issuing store credit and return shipping label of original item with the damaged box and paint pealing off the handrails (all done by Bachmann at their repair shops). This was really all on Bachmann and they never offered a replacement or other offer.
Sorry to hear Bachmann was not able to make it right, that is disappointing.
Sounds to me like they may have skilled labor issues........
No wonder that Bachmann prefers to just replace a loco.
And, if they have them why not? The production cost of that loco is way less than paying someone to fix it.
But repair problems like this are a new situation compared to my experiances with the repair department.
I find the conclusion to this dilemma interesting. I would never expect a retailer to refund me money for an item where the manufacturer could not fix the defect.
I would have thought the legal liability would fall to Bachmann...and perhaps they will refund TW eventually.
All of my manufacturer returns have been adequately repaired, so the idea that consumers hold the retailer monetarily responsible for the defects an unaffiliated company created and could not repair is interesting to me.
Maybe that's why retailers are disappearing. Being held up to standards they can't meet.
- Douglas
I'm joining this conversation very late but I'll throw my two cents in anyway.
Glad to see rrebel seems to have gotten a satisfactory response.
I have one simple rule that I adhere to strictly regarding any company I do business withm, not just model railroading vendors. They only get one chance to do me wrong. If they fail to give me my money's worth and refuse to correct problems, they won't get a second chance. I cross them off my list and they are dead to me.
NittanyLion ATLANTIC CENTRAL There were two different shops around here years ago, both had owners who were a little burned out I'm assuming that one of these was the fellow that ran Peach Creek. He was a gruff fellow, but I understand that he had a good reputation. I often wonder if people who have experience in retail positions have a higher threshold for "bad treatment" than people with little or no experience. I'm not sure I'd say I've been poorly treated anywhere, in any type of store. Likewise, when I was a professional book selling guy, I don't recall intentionally treating anyone badly (even though ten plus years later I can tell you two people I really wish I had).
ATLANTIC CENTRAL There were two different shops around here years ago, both had owners who were a little burned out
I'm assuming that one of these was the fellow that ran Peach Creek. He was a gruff fellow, but I understand that he had a good reputation.
I often wonder if people who have experience in retail positions have a higher threshold for "bad treatment" than people with little or no experience. I'm not sure I'd say I've been poorly treated anywhere, in any type of store. Likewise, when I was a professional book selling guy, I don't recall intentionally treating anyone badly (even though ten plus years later I can tell you two people I really wish I had).
Wrong assumption. I knew John Glaab of Peach Creek for many years, never found him to be gruff.
ATLANTIC CENTRALThere were two different shops around here years ago, both had owners who were a little burned out
This is sad. If TW had a repair department stocked with spare parts, they might have done a better job.
I've never been poorly treated in a LHS.
The one closest to me just simply can't get new releases from most places for whatever reason.
But I have never been treated poorly.
I have been to at least 50 shops over the years. Used to be about 20 in my area, 2 are left and another one or two not worth going to.
SeeYou190 rrebell I have been to shops all over the country and that is not the norm. I have visited over 50 hobby shops coast-to-coast over the last twenty years. The vast majority of them are clean, friendly, and well run. There are some that are awful, but these are rare. Game stores on the other hand... these are nearly all awful, but simply rake in the money. Too bad train stores don't have the equivilent of a Friday Night Magic money cow to milk. -Kevin
rrebell I have been to shops all over the country and that is not the norm.
I have visited over 50 hobby shops coast-to-coast over the last twenty years.
The vast majority of them are clean, friendly, and well run.
There are some that are awful, but these are rare.
Game stores on the other hand... these are nearly all awful, but simply rake in the money. Too bad train stores don't have the equivilent of a Friday Night Magic money cow to milk.
-Kevin
rrebell is the only person I have talked to with so many bad hobby shop/train store experiances. I have not been to shops all around the country, but I have been in more than my share here in the east, I have never been treated badly.
Were some shops cluttered or poorly stocked? Sure.
Were some clerks less than knowledgeable? Sure.
But I was treated poorly by anyone.
There were two different shops around here years ago, both had owners who were a little burned out, but I only knew that becuase I had known them for many years when I worked in this business. They never treated customers badly.
Living the dream.
Closest real hobby shop is over 45 min away by car, by public transit it might just as well be the moon. Haven't been to the two that still exist since they got new ownership but I can tell you I was not impressed with the way people were treated before. Even all the so so hobby shops are gone, lets face it, they can not compeat and you still loyal to one, good for you and maybe your shop is great but I have been to shops all over the country and that is not the norm. In fact I am surprised at how badly run small buissness are on average but that dose make the gems shine. 33% of small buisnesses close within 2 years, 20% the first year and only half are around after 5 years (research by banks).
crossthedog Your local hobby shops must be owned and operated by orcs and devils, truly evil characters. That has not been my experience.
Your local hobby shops must be owned and operated by orcs and devils, truly evil characters. That has not been my experience.
You want O gauge stuff? He's spectacular. Lionel, MTH, Williams, whole lot of it. Can get almost anything from those lines.
Looking for older (Pre-DCC) HO or N stuff? He has a good selection. Much more HO than N, but still decent in N. (I'm talking Riverossi, IHC, 1990's-2000's Bachmann, a few BlueBox loco's and cars, etc....)
You want something newer, or HO with DCC/Sound? Go elsewhere.
Anything recently done Atlas, Athearn, Bachmann, all Scaletrains or Walthers products, he can not get.
About 40 Miles away is a different LHS, and he can get almost anything you want. (Except ESU decoders?) Not worth the trip that far for standard supplies though.
And my Amazon example? I'm not a Prime customer. Prime is indeed a rip-off IMO. But living "in the sticks" like I do, local shops simply can not compete.
WM, Amazon, eBay, and online stores gets 90-95% of all my purchases. Across all catagories.
ricktrains4824Amazon, WM, and "homogeneous and impersonal" places are still turning profit. Otherwise, they could not charge the little they do.
And I would turn your statement around -- the little shops -- distinctive and personal -- would not be closing up all over America if THEY WERE making a livable profit. I don't see my local hobby shop guy stepping off his rocket plane after a refreshing trip to space.
-Matt
Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.
ricktrains4824When the LHS can not order from: Walthers, ESU, Athearn, Atlas, Intermountain, Scaletrains, TruColor paint, ModelFlex, new release Accurail, or anything in the past 5 years from Bachmann, you tend to start going elsewhere. When they say they can, then you get burned because "the item you ordered through us never came in", you really go elsewhere. When Amazon has grocery/otc meds/general merchandise items at 1/2, or less, the price of the store in town, you start ordering from Amazon. Same with WallyWorld. If it's a big price difference, for the exact same item, you buy there. When you pay almost 50% more from "shopping local", you don't. My pay did not go up by 50% to cover the difference. I have worked retail for a long while, and have seen profit margins. Amazon, WM, and "homogeneous and impersonal" places are still turning profit. Otherwise, they could not charge the little they do. Absolutely no excuse for "local" to be so much higher priced. Enough for profit, yes. But not so much that it's uneconomical. Complain all you want that "the little guy" is going under, but what other choice is there??? I either get it through who I can, at a price I can afford, or I don't get it at all.
Fair points, all. Just saying, we get what we buy. Your local hobby shops must be owned and operated by orcs and devils, truly evil characters. That has not been my experience.
When the LHS can not order from: Walthers, ESU, Athearn, Atlas, Intermountain, Scaletrains, TruColor paint, ModelFlex, new release Accurail, or anything in the past 5 years from Bachmann, you tend to start going elsewhere.
When they say they can, then you get burned because "the item you ordered through us never came in", you really go elsewhere.
When Amazon has grocery/otc meds/general merchandise items at 1/2, or less, the price of the store in town, you start ordering from Amazon.
Same with WallyWorld. If it's a big price difference, for the exact same item, you buy there.
When you pay almost 50% more from "shopping local", you don't. My pay did not go up by 50% to cover the difference.
I have worked retail for a long while, and have seen profit margins. Amazon, WM, and "homogeneous and impersonal" places are still turning profit. Otherwise, they could not charge the little they do. Absolutely no excuse for "local" to be so much higher priced. Enough for profit, yes. But not so much that it's uneconomical.
Complain all you want that "the little guy" is going under, but what other choice is there??? I either get it through who I can, at a price I can afford, or I don't get it at all.
Not getting it at all helps no one. And that really hurts everyone.
And realizing that buying from an "authorized dealer" means I must follow how the return/warranty is supposed to be done, even if through the manufacturer, as opposed to simply going back to the dealer?
So.
Be.
It.
That simply means I call the manufacturer instead of the dealer calling them.
That is the point of a manufacturer's warranty. The manufacturer warranties, or guarentees, the item.
Not the dealer.
Don't want to deal with a manufacturer's warranty? Don't buy that product new. Buy used. Then, no dealing with the manufacturer warranty at all.
Just be prepared to fix it yourself instead.
And if your CC or PayPal, or anything or anyone else, continues without just cause to override company policies, forcing refunds, simply to please the customer, ignoring that the manufacturer says to send them the defective items, then guess what? Now, you are helping put those places out of business, and helping drive up prices for everyone else.
I'm not saying that if I order a Memory Foam Mattress for instance, but receive an Air Mattress, and you want to charge me for the return costs, or a return fee, that CC/PayPal, etc... can not step in. In fact, they should.
They should not step in on defective new merchandise under manufacturer's warranty simply because you don't want to deal with it.
leewalI wish a store like Hobby Lobby could partner with, and order from, Walthers with store pick-up, like the hobby shop used to do,
I drive 20 miles to my LHS, and I make the trip every couple of weeks, for Kadee couplers, track, cork, wire, little tools, and to look over the great deals he has on used rolling stock. My LHS guy has helped me fiddle with getting a new coupler on a vintage loco, helped educate me about wiring, and several times has thrown something on my pile "on the house" that he thought I could use -- a small manual turnout switch, for example. The only time something didn't work right, he took it back without any trouble. He's truly there because he loves model railroading and wants to help people enjoy the hobby. That, to me, is worth the drive, worth the gas, worth the time, worth paying whatever few dollars more for some items.
I don't support Amazon because every purchase I buy there hastens the arrival of a homogeneous and impersonal world I'm not interested in living in, plus "taking it back" when something is defective is a costly hassle (see above, QED). Your mileage may vary.
If I have to find something online, I find it on Amazon and then contact the manufacturer. Only rarely do I encounter a manufacturer that won't sell to me directly, for just a buck or two more. In those cases, I can usually find a similar product with someone who will. Just something to consider. We mourn the loss of the corner store and real human connections but we're torpedoing that world every time we shop with Prime. <--- All just my opinion, so feel free to say why you see it differently but don't flame me.
rrebell Kinda think I got a return to TW, subtle clues but nothing that could have been proved.
Kinda think I got a return to TW, subtle clues but nothing that could have been proved.
Do you think they knew or should have known the item was a problem?
davefr ricktrains4824 davefr I usually refuse any option to deal direct with the manufacturer since that's not who I bought the product from. If the reseller refuses then it's pretty simple. I simply put the sale into dispute with my payment sources. (either Paypal or a cc company). They generally refund my purchase price and tell me to make the item available for pickup by the resller's courier. First - You technically bought it from the manufacturer, just simply through their assigned "middleman." Store did not make said product to sell, nor did they "purchase all rights" to said product. Most manufacturers use assigned "middlemen" (i.e. stores) to deal with 100's buyers for them. (Imagine trying to buy everything "direct" every single time. How long is your hold time???) Second - The seller's clearly stated policy is that if defective, contact manufacturer. If Paypal or CC refuses to enforce the clearly stated rule and instead sides with the buyer, then Paypal or CC company can be sued by seller for breach of contract. As can you, the buyer. Don't like that seller's "all defects go through manufacturer" policy? Then don't buy from that seller. I also find it odd that, from the beginning of this thread, simple questions about the issue have never been answered, nor have simple suggestions been followed. If they were, it could have avoided this whole fiasco... 1. No, "Technically" he did buy it from the reseller. That's where $'s changed hands and that's the basis for a legal purchase contract. (offer, acceptance and consideration). This was not a consignment sale. 2. This reseller's T's and C's do not clearly state that defective product must go to the manufacturer. They do state this "Limit one replacement per purchase. In some cases, TrainWorld may choose to test an item prior to shipping. If a replacement product is tested and found to be free of defect, TrainWorld will not replace the item for a second time." 3. If the reseller accepts Paypal as a payment method they agree to Paypal's T's and C's which provides provisions for customer returns/disputes. (ie) Paypals policies take precedance when Paypal is the payment method. Same for credit cards.
ricktrains4824 davefr I usually refuse any option to deal direct with the manufacturer since that's not who I bought the product from. If the reseller refuses then it's pretty simple. I simply put the sale into dispute with my payment sources. (either Paypal or a cc company). They generally refund my purchase price and tell me to make the item available for pickup by the resller's courier. First - You technically bought it from the manufacturer, just simply through their assigned "middleman." Store did not make said product to sell, nor did they "purchase all rights" to said product. Most manufacturers use assigned "middlemen" (i.e. stores) to deal with 100's buyers for them. (Imagine trying to buy everything "direct" every single time. How long is your hold time???) Second - The seller's clearly stated policy is that if defective, contact manufacturer. If Paypal or CC refuses to enforce the clearly stated rule and instead sides with the buyer, then Paypal or CC company can be sued by seller for breach of contract. As can you, the buyer. Don't like that seller's "all defects go through manufacturer" policy? Then don't buy from that seller. I also find it odd that, from the beginning of this thread, simple questions about the issue have never been answered, nor have simple suggestions been followed. If they were, it could have avoided this whole fiasco...
davefr I usually refuse any option to deal direct with the manufacturer since that's not who I bought the product from. If the reseller refuses then it's pretty simple. I simply put the sale into dispute with my payment sources. (either Paypal or a cc company). They generally refund my purchase price and tell me to make the item available for pickup by the resller's courier.
I usually refuse any option to deal direct with the manufacturer since that's not who I bought the product from.
If the reseller refuses then it's pretty simple. I simply put the sale into dispute with my payment sources. (either Paypal or a cc company). They generally refund my purchase price and tell me to make the item available for pickup by the resller's courier.
First - You technically bought it from the manufacturer, just simply through their assigned "middleman." Store did not make said product to sell, nor did they "purchase all rights" to said product.
Most manufacturers use assigned "middlemen" (i.e. stores) to deal with 100's buyers for them. (Imagine trying to buy everything "direct" every single time. How long is your hold time???)
Second - The seller's clearly stated policy is that if defective, contact manufacturer.
If Paypal or CC refuses to enforce the clearly stated rule and instead sides with the buyer, then Paypal or CC company can be sued by seller for breach of contract. As can you, the buyer.
Don't like that seller's "all defects go through manufacturer" policy? Then don't buy from that seller.
I also find it odd that, from the beginning of this thread, simple questions about the issue have never been answered, nor have simple suggestions been followed. If they were, it could have avoided this whole fiasco...
1. No, "Technically" he did buy it from the reseller. That's where $'s changed hands and that's the basis for a legal purchase contract. (offer, acceptance and consideration). This was not a consignment sale.
2. This reseller's T's and C's do not clearly state that defective product must go to the manufacturer. They do state this "Limit one replacement per purchase. In some cases, TrainWorld may choose to test an item prior to shipping. If a replacement product is tested and found to be free of defect, TrainWorld will not replace the item for a second time."
3. If the reseller accepts Paypal as a payment method they agree to Paypal's T's and C's which provides provisions for customer returns/disputes. (ie) Paypals policies take precedance when Paypal is the payment method. Same for credit cards.
Its understood that a retailer is not responsible for correcting an item that is covered under manufacturer warranty, even if the defect was discovered upon receiving the item. Whether the defect occurred before ownership or 90 days after, return it to the manufacturer.
If a retailer resold a defective product, or should have known the original item was defective, then the retailer should remedy. TW wouldn't know that a loco has a bad truck.
Some general merchandise retailers are very generous with their return policy because it makes sense for them, but that doesn't apply to every retailer.
A sanctioned Dealer is not the same thing as a retailer. The local dealership is representing the manufacturer.
rrebelltalked about excessive moter sound and they said a noisey motor is a noisy motor but as a curticy they would replace,
This is the issue with me. The consistency from one loco to the next is not what it used to be. By one loco and it works fine, buy a second and there are strange noises.
And Bachmann does not make the motor or components, per se. I assume they get batched shipped from the sub-producer and assembled by Bachmann.
Glad to see they will remedy the situation.
Well I just got a call from Bachmann, said the front truck had an issue, decoder and board fine, talked about excessive moter sound and they said a noisey motor is a noisy motor but as a curticy they would replace, maybe after all this, it will be fixed. Got to say the people in repair dept at Bachmann are very nice and listen.
Yes, notified TW and then Bachmann and shipped it off to Bachmann. Now that the second decoder went bad I know what the problem is but I don't think the Bachmann people are in that paygrade. Basicaly the engine must have an intermintent short which will fry some electronic parts. Learned about this working with AT&T with a gateway that kept frying. Tech replaced about 1/2 dosen times, only finally found proublem when the short became solid.