Doughless...they deny the return request under this broad statement from their policy: Returned items must be in new and resalable condition with all original boxes and packing.
Of course, it would "be just like a certain kind of business" to fall back on that sort of ambiguous blanket statement to avoid having to eat any cost. I well remember the Volkswagen diesel engine in the New Beetle, touted as economical as hell, with a long 'all-inclusive' engine warranty. Until you noticed a little item in the warranty coverage -- it excepted belts from coverage, as common in engine warranties. This engine used a timing belt, which if it snapped or even stretched or jumped a tooth could produce catastrophic engine damage. VW in fact required that this belt be changed at relatively low mileage -- ISTR 60,000miles but that might be an exaggeration -- to keep the 'rest' of the warranty in force. To change this belt required taking the engine out of the car, over $800 at then dealer price. Where's my big savings? - let alone my warranty when I didn't read the fine print in my manual and the belt caused its problems...
You can as easily say the item was not received in expected condition, cancel the charge, or threaten legal action until you receive the serviceable item promised. I don't particularly like behaving that way toward any provider, but if they rely on Mickey Mouse they've already signalled the 'worth' of their relationship with you.
Doughless OP is welcome to try. They might take it back. But when you fill out the return request they ask "Have you contacted the manufacturer" and "Is the item defective" When you answer the questions that give them the impression its a factory defect, they deny the return request under this broad statement from their policy: Returned items must be in new and resalable condition with all original boxes and packing. OP could lie and simply say that its fine and he no longer wants it, then they'll probably allow him to return it thinking its in resaleable condition.
OP is welcome to try. They might take it back.
But when you fill out the return request they ask "Have you contacted the manufacturer" and "Is the item defective" When you answer the questions that give them the impression its a factory defect, they deny the return request under this broad statement from their policy:
Returned items must be in new and resalable condition with all original boxes and packing.
OP could lie and simply say that its fine and he no longer wants it, then they'll probably allow him to return it thinking its in resaleable condition.
DO NOT LIE ABOUT THE ITEM CONDITION!!!!!!!
All that will accomplish is two things -
1 - Pass the issue to the next (unlucky) purchaser.
2 - Make you (the lying party) a big jerk.
IF Trainworld caught on, they then would have "just cause" to BAN you, permenantly.
They also could take legal action for you deliberately commiting fraud.
Even suggesting this as optional is very disrespectful, and very much borderline illegal.
Totally disgusting it was even suggested....
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
- Douglas
As I read the info on the TrainWorld website, you can return items directly to them. I would hope the OP has at least contacted them about the problem.
https://www.trainworld.com/returns-and-exchanges
I'm also still wondering if he's tried the engine on DC yet....
Sorry but first world problems bother me a lot and a lot of people in buisness don't spell out the way to do things, they let you guess and then tell you you are wrong later, it would be better if they all ran by the same rules but you know that will never happen.
ricktrains4824 Doughless Another one of those general American-isms where "standing behind the product you sell" is outdated and meaningless. Well, not really... Bachmann will stand behind the product.... Like any reputable manufacturer who you technically are indeed ultimately buying from. Bachmann makes and sells it to a middleman you buy it from. Bachmann prefers to deal with selected people (middleman) over dealing with millions individually. Trainworld policy is what it is. Buyer Beware, you get what you pay for, YMMV, etc.... as they say. (But try paying that price at your local hobby shop, or that type of discount on anything anywhere else....) But Bachmann will stand behind the product, as new, with original receipt, if it really is a defective issue. So, standing behind the product you sell is not an outdated ideology. The customer is always right is the outdated ideology. The product is still backed by a full manufacturer's warranty, just not through the middleman you dealt with, but from Bachmann, the manufacturer. It's called a "Manufacturer's Warranty" for a reason. The manufacturer warranties it. Not necissarily the retailer. So, no, the customer is not always right. {Techniacally, the full quote is refering to matters of taste, like color. Not everything.} (Just the experience of w*rking retail, including assistant manager, for years, has proven what I have just said.) P.S. - In NO way should my post be veiwed as critical of Trainworld, or their company policies dealing with defective items, or any other policies they may or may not have. I have been a happy Trainworld customer on several purchases.
Doughless Another one of those general American-isms where "standing behind the product you sell" is outdated and meaningless.
Another one of those general American-isms where "standing behind the product you sell" is outdated and meaningless.
Well, not really...
Bachmann will stand behind the product.... Like any reputable manufacturer who you technically are indeed ultimately buying from. Bachmann makes and sells it to a middleman you buy it from. Bachmann prefers to deal with selected people (middleman) over dealing with millions individually.
Trainworld policy is what it is. Buyer Beware, you get what you pay for, YMMV, etc.... as they say. (But try paying that price at your local hobby shop, or that type of discount on anything anywhere else....)
But Bachmann will stand behind the product, as new, with original receipt, if it really is a defective issue.
So, standing behind the product you sell is not an outdated ideology.
The customer is always right is the outdated ideology.
The product is still backed by a full manufacturer's warranty, just not through the middleman you dealt with, but from Bachmann, the manufacturer. It's called a "Manufacturer's Warranty" for a reason. The manufacturer warranties it. Not necissarily the retailer.
So, no, the customer is not always right. {Techniacally, the full quote is refering to matters of taste, like color. Not everything.}
(Just the experience of w*rking retail, including assistant manager, for years, has proven what I have just said.)
P.S. - In NO way should my post be veiwed as critical of Trainworld, or their company policies dealing with defective items, or any other policies they may or may not have. I have been a happy Trainworld customer on several purchases.
I was talking about retailers. Not manufacturers.
Yes, Doug, I am in full agreement with you, but thought my experience based "opinion", and some financial facts might bring clarity to some readers....
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Doughless Trainworld's return policy will not allow you to return a defective product to them. Be prepared to have to contact Bachmann. Most online retailers do not assume the responsibility of a factory defect. They generally only accept returns for errors they commit, such as shipping damage or wrong item sent. They will also work with a customer if you simply no longer want the item, changed your mind, etc. and will accept a return. But they do not take the responsibility for chasing down a factory problem and want you to send it to the people who can actually fix it. A few more thoughts to go along with these and my own earlier comments. At the prices Trainworld is offering, there is no extra make-up for velvet glove "service". Even if they were to pay for the return shipping, what is the point of shipping it back to them so they can in turn ship it back to Bachmann? Sure, if you paid full retail, or near retail, over the counter of a store down the street from your house, it would make sense to take it back and expect help or a replacement - but you didn't, so you can't. There is no free lunch, every time someone somewhere gets something for nothing, someone else does something for nothing. How much do you want to do for nothing? Anybody know the source of that quote? Sheldon
Doughless Trainworld's return policy will not allow you to return a defective product to them. Be prepared to have to contact Bachmann. Most online retailers do not assume the responsibility of a factory defect. They generally only accept returns for errors they commit, such as shipping damage or wrong item sent. They will also work with a customer if you simply no longer want the item, changed your mind, etc. and will accept a return. But they do not take the responsibility for chasing down a factory problem and want you to send it to the people who can actually fix it.
Trainworld's return policy will not allow you to return a defective product to them. Be prepared to have to contact Bachmann.
Most online retailers do not assume the responsibility of a factory defect. They generally only accept returns for errors they commit, such as shipping damage or wrong item sent.
They will also work with a customer if you simply no longer want the item, changed your mind, etc. and will accept a return.
But they do not take the responsibility for chasing down a factory problem and want you to send it to the people who can actually fix it.
A few more thoughts to go along with these and my own earlier comments.
At the prices Trainworld is offering, there is no extra make-up for velvet glove "service".
Even if they were to pay for the return shipping, what is the point of shipping it back to them so they can in turn ship it back to Bachmann?
Sure, if you paid full retail, or near retail, over the counter of a store down the street from your house, it would make sense to take it back and expect help or a replacement - but you didn't, so you can't.
There is no free lunch, every time someone somewhere gets something for nothing, someone else does something for nothing. How much do you want to do for nothing?
Anybody know the source of that quote?
I fully agree, I hope you did not read my comment as a criticism of the policy. For brevity I just stuck to the facts and did not include opinion.
With so many different manufacturers making so many of the same kind of high end models with breakable parts, NO RETAILER should even entertain the idea of repairing a factory defect or assembly problem, IMO.
These aren't Chevrolet franchises. These are retailers selling nearly a hundred different brands of products. Sometimes, one and only runs of a model. Is the retailer expected to have the parts if I can't buy any?
Deleted. Meant to quote Sheldon.
TrainWorld does not bill themselves as the "closeout kings" for nothing.
The Bachmann S4 had a retail price of $249.00 when it came out. TrainWorld paid Bachmann about $74 for it. And I am sure they sold a bunch at $140 or $125 when they were new.
Now what is left is priced at $99. Or, about 25% gross margin.
Anybody that knows anything about retail, brick and mortar or mail order, will tell you that you need to make 30%, bare minimum.
And you are not really making a good return until you get to 40% or hopefully 50%.
You need to make money to provide the velvet glove service.
In the old days, $99 would have been near rock bottom wholesale from the manufacturer for an item with a $249 retail price.
Everybody complains about defects, and about availability, about service, but nobody wants to pay a reasonable price for retailers or manufacturers to provide all this.
I buy stuff from Trainworld, and years ago when I bought Proto2000 locos at 1/3 their retail price, that ended up needing new gears, I got them right from LifeLike under warranty or bought them myself without a second thought.
BUT, having worked in this business, and having been self employed most of my life, my perspective is likely different....
Milton Friedman didn't coin TANSTAAFL, but he and R.A.Heinlein were two who made it popular.
One of my laws of consulting is that the amount of customer service demanded as 'due' is inversely proportional to the original purchase price. (There is even more objective knowledge behind this than there is for why buses run in packs in NYC). The inverse proportion in many cohorts is geometric, not linear...
For a while in the 'friction-free economy' years, some of the gains of efficient logistics and 'Internet' marketing could translate into better customer service -- I well remember the first time a computer-equipment retailer capped their shipping cost per order, regardless of size of order. There is a kind of Gresham's law in cheap marketing that eventually makes any kind of service after the payment clears 'money left on the table'. Ruskin's old adage about 'those who buy on price' is just as applicable to sales as it is to production...
Doughless rrebell Consist ?, I took it out of box brand new, didn't even want to reset to factory specs as fully under warrenty. This stuff happened from the start. Trainworld's return policy will not allow you to return a defective product to them. Be prepared to have to contact Bachmann. Most online retailers do not assume the responsibility of a factory defect. They generally only accept returns for errors they commit, such as shipping damage or wrong item sent. They will also work with a customer if you simply no longer want the item, changed your mind, etc. and will accept a return. But they do not take the responsibility for chasing down a factory problem and want you to send it to the people who can actually fix it.
rrebell Consist ?, I took it out of box brand new, didn't even want to reset to factory specs as fully under warrenty. This stuff happened from the start.
Consist ?, I took it out of box brand new, didn't even want to reset to factory specs as fully under warrenty. This stuff happened from the start.
I would still do a factory decoder reset.
If you can test with DC, if it's overheating it will do it on DC as well.
If it is fine on DC, something is making it slow down on DCC only.
Make sure no other throttle is set to address 03 as well.
Ya, if you're running it on ID 03 it's not going to be an issue with a consist (unless you at some time set up a consist with an engine that was using ID 03 of course, but that's not likely.)
FWIW according to Bachmann's parts page, the sound decoder board for the S4 costs $89.61 (the S4 list price is $249), so even if you have to spend a few bucks to send your $99 engine back for repair / replacement you're still coming out ahead.
p.s. Still curious if it runs OK on DC or not? Even with a DCC engine I like to do a break-in run on DC first. It could at least narrow down the list of potential problems.
It sounds like an issue with the decoder, perhaps overheating or something else wrong with it. (If it was a poor track connection it wouldn't slow down, it would just stop dead.)
Have you ever run it with another engine in a consist? If you have an engine as a trailing engine in a consist and then try to run it directly without ending the consist, it will react the way you describe. Have you tried running it on DC? If it runs OK on DC, it could be the consist issue with the decoder.
wjstix Just out of curiosity, what is the $99 'defective' item, and what is the problem with it? It might be something someone else has encountered and found a simple solution to.
Just out of curiosity, what is the $99 'defective' item, and what is the problem with it? It might be something someone else has encountered and found a simple solution to.
If new and defective out of box, I would contact the place you purchased it from.
They should be willing to help, or even exchange if possible. (Responsible, reputable places will.)
If used (as is, was is, yours is) then maybe see about parts. If it is easy enough to fix, parts only might be cheaper. Otherswise, is shipping fee to manufacturer more cost effective?
Last resort - Paper weight.
I once received a NIB Bachmann Spectrum diesel where they somehow missed a very important screw during assembly, but the shop I purchased it from was able to supply a replacement screw and fix easily. (This was clear back when I was 14, 21 years ago.)
Only other NIB issues I've ever had was defective factory decoder, and defective lighting in another from factory. One was replaced by manufacturer no charge, the other I gave up fighting over it and ordered parts to fix it myself. (And I make a point to not purchase anything else from that seller any longer.)
So, I will repeat the question - What is defective about it? And which model is it? The popularity of Bachmann units being as it is, someone might have come across the issue and it was simple enough to fix so cheaply they just did it themselves and can advise.
One reason is because Bachmann tends to produce the same product over and over again for years, up to decades. They obviously have different runs, but also are not coming up with new versions of the same loco, with different details, or different obscure locos every year or two. Their cost per unit produced is probably very low compared to most compaies.
Hello All,
Most of my motive power is made by Bachmann; both diesel and steam.
The quality of some of these have been less than acceptable- -even new out-of-the-box units.
I always fill out the registration card and send it back to Bachmann as soon as I receive the unit.
For out-of-warranty locomotives, Bachmann charges a flat $45.00 fee, and you still have to pay the shipping to them.
Repairs that are "in-warranty" are covered for no charge other than the cost of shipping to them.
In both cases, Bachmann covered the return shipping cost.
I had a problematic USRA 0-6-0 w/DCC & smoke. I bought it used so it was out-of-warranty.
The first time I sent it in I was charged the standard $45.00. It ran well for a short time and then developed another problem.
I sent it back to Bachmann for a second time.
The factory technician called me and said the problem was "terminal".
Unfortunately, they were out of that particular livery (paint scheme).
He offered to send a new-in-box replacement with a different livery, retail $175.00. Because I had already paid the $45.00 out-of-warranty fee there would be no charge.
Yes, I had to pay shipping- -twice- -back to Bachmann but in the end, I got a brand new unit.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
Bingo. I was in and out of the retail hobby business from mid 1980s to 2006 when my health crashed bigtime and my working days ended.
I have little experience with internet retail, but that bit quoted below, yep.
At the time I was in retail we didn't have the sales volume of hundreds of an item to order direct from manufacturers, assuming they sold direct to retailers.
Wholesale price for most everything hobby, model kits, paints, trains, was typically 40% off MSRP no matter which distributors.
Except Lionel trains, their wholesale price was 20% off MSRP.
What came out of what we sold a thing for was: the money to pay for it or another one to sell - so there goes 60% of the selling price right there.
From the remaining 40% was taken; money for the costs of the physical store, lease, utilities, et cetera; money for wages of store employees; owners took varying amounts to pay their morgtage and groceries, at one store they had other income so they took only 10% of the selling price; money was taken out of the selling price to save up to have enough to buy product for the Christman surge; and probably other stuff which I am forgetting.
And at one franchise I worked for, the owners marked most everything at 5% below MSRP because shop was not on the really wealthy side of town.
As well as MSRP there was sometimes a "street price" which was lower than MSRP and was the customary selling price.
ATLANTIC CENTRALYou have this backwards. The LHS price is not "inflated", which implies excessive profit. Based on their costs to aquire the product, and provide the services they provide, it is amazing any of these shops can stay in business these days. The discounters have eliminated the middle man and eliminated a lot of the "services" to provide their super low prices. Many brick and mortar stores have eliminated the middle man as well, but still provide the traditional services, while still offering some level of discount pricing.
Universal Postal Union:
https://www.upu.int/en/Universal-Postal-Union
Much of the China > N.A. shipping is through the 2011 ePacket agreement.
Regards, Ed
BigDaddyChina subsidizes postage
Chinas' mail is heavily subsidized but not by who you would think. If I say more my hair will burst into flame.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
richhotrainI just told him to move to the U.S.
Don't we already have enough complainers?
BigDaddy ATLANTIC CENTRAL OK, I know shipping costs are up but $17 seems steep. What carrier? What service? Maybe not? There is another thread about a defective NCE powercab. The OP is in Canada and he said postage is $20-25 and a brokerage fee (I assume to get it home) of $40-60
ATLANTIC CENTRAL OK, I know shipping costs are up but $17 seems steep. What carrier? What service? Maybe not?
There is another thread about a defective NCE powercab. The OP is in Canada and he said postage is $20-25 and a brokerage fee (I assume to get it home) of $40-60
Rich
Alton Junction
ATLANTIC CENTRALOK, I know shipping costs are up but $17 seems steep. What carrier? What service? Maybe not?
China subsidizes postage, at least what I have ordered off Ebay, never costs more than $1 postage. The USPS is a quasi government agency that sell bonds to the government on which it defaults on. Post pandemic service is still poor. At 5:30 tonight, my mail carrier is still delivering in my neighborhood and I received mail that was supposed to arrive Friday and Saturday
Ebay has a deal with the Post Office and you can send things you sell cheaper if you buy postage from Ebay that from the po. Amazon has a deal with everyone which makes Prime more than worthwhile.
Regular citizens don't get that deal. Citizens of Canada, since I don't understand their system, I can't really comment, but paying $80 to send and receive you own Powercab is excessive. That is a country problem not a company problem.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Perhaps annoying, but have you called the vendor to explain the issue? The problem is there's to solve. They might do good by sending you a shipping label or a replacement item. Vendors know that their reputation is made (or destroyed) often through reviews.