Deleted. Meant to quote Sheldon.
- Douglas
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Doughless Trainworld's return policy will not allow you to return a defective product to them. Be prepared to have to contact Bachmann. Most online retailers do not assume the responsibility of a factory defect. They generally only accept returns for errors they commit, such as shipping damage or wrong item sent. They will also work with a customer if you simply no longer want the item, changed your mind, etc. and will accept a return. But they do not take the responsibility for chasing down a factory problem and want you to send it to the people who can actually fix it. A few more thoughts to go along with these and my own earlier comments. At the prices Trainworld is offering, there is no extra make-up for velvet glove "service". Even if they were to pay for the return shipping, what is the point of shipping it back to them so they can in turn ship it back to Bachmann? Sure, if you paid full retail, or near retail, over the counter of a store down the street from your house, it would make sense to take it back and expect help or a replacement - but you didn't, so you can't. There is no free lunch, every time someone somewhere gets something for nothing, someone else does something for nothing. How much do you want to do for nothing? Anybody know the source of that quote? Sheldon
Doughless Trainworld's return policy will not allow you to return a defective product to them. Be prepared to have to contact Bachmann. Most online retailers do not assume the responsibility of a factory defect. They generally only accept returns for errors they commit, such as shipping damage or wrong item sent. They will also work with a customer if you simply no longer want the item, changed your mind, etc. and will accept a return. But they do not take the responsibility for chasing down a factory problem and want you to send it to the people who can actually fix it.
Trainworld's return policy will not allow you to return a defective product to them. Be prepared to have to contact Bachmann.
Most online retailers do not assume the responsibility of a factory defect. They generally only accept returns for errors they commit, such as shipping damage or wrong item sent.
They will also work with a customer if you simply no longer want the item, changed your mind, etc. and will accept a return.
But they do not take the responsibility for chasing down a factory problem and want you to send it to the people who can actually fix it.
A few more thoughts to go along with these and my own earlier comments.
At the prices Trainworld is offering, there is no extra make-up for velvet glove "service".
Even if they were to pay for the return shipping, what is the point of shipping it back to them so they can in turn ship it back to Bachmann?
Sure, if you paid full retail, or near retail, over the counter of a store down the street from your house, it would make sense to take it back and expect help or a replacement - but you didn't, so you can't.
There is no free lunch, every time someone somewhere gets something for nothing, someone else does something for nothing. How much do you want to do for nothing?
Anybody know the source of that quote?
Sheldon
I fully agree, I hope you did not read my comment as a criticism of the policy. For brevity I just stuck to the facts and did not include opinion.
With so many different manufacturers making so many of the same kind of high end models with breakable parts, NO RETAILER should even entertain the idea of repairing a factory defect or assembly problem, IMO.
These aren't Chevrolet franchises. These are retailers selling nearly a hundred different brands of products. Sometimes, one and only runs of a model. Is the retailer expected to have the parts if I can't buy any?
Another one of those general American-isms where "standing behind the product you sell" is outdated and meaningless.
Yes, Doug, I am in full agreement with you, but thought my experience based "opinion", and some financial facts might bring clarity to some readers....
Doughless Another one of those general American-isms where "standing behind the product you sell" is outdated and meaningless.
Well, not really...
Bachmann will stand behind the product.... Like any reputable manufacturer who you technically are indeed ultimately buying from. Bachmann makes and sells it to a middleman you buy it from. Bachmann prefers to deal with selected people (middleman) over dealing with millions individually.
Trainworld policy is what it is. Buyer Beware, you get what you pay for, YMMV, etc.... as they say. (But try paying that price at your local hobby shop, or that type of discount on anything anywhere else....)
But Bachmann will stand behind the product, as new, with original receipt, if it really is a defective issue.
So, standing behind the product you sell is not an outdated ideology.
The customer is always right is the outdated ideology.
The product is still backed by a full manufacturer's warranty, just not through the middleman you dealt with, but from Bachmann, the manufacturer. It's called a "Manufacturer's Warranty" for a reason. The manufacturer warranties it. Not necissarily the retailer.
So, no, the customer is not always right. {Techniacally, the full quote is refering to matters of taste, like color. Not everything.}
(Just the experience of w*rking retail, including assistant manager, for years, has proven what I have just said.)
P.S. - In NO way should my post be veiwed as critical of Trainworld, or their company policies dealing with defective items, or any other policies they may or may not have. I have been a happy Trainworld customer on several purchases.
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
ricktrains4824 Doughless Another one of those general American-isms where "standing behind the product you sell" is outdated and meaningless. Well, not really... Bachmann will stand behind the product.... Like any reputable manufacturer who you technically are indeed ultimately buying from. Bachmann makes and sells it to a middleman you buy it from. Bachmann prefers to deal with selected people (middleman) over dealing with millions individually. Trainworld policy is what it is. Buyer Beware, you get what you pay for, YMMV, etc.... as they say. (But try paying that price at your local hobby shop, or that type of discount on anything anywhere else....) But Bachmann will stand behind the product, as new, with original receipt, if it really is a defective issue. So, standing behind the product you sell is not an outdated ideology. The customer is always right is the outdated ideology. The product is still backed by a full manufacturer's warranty, just not through the middleman you dealt with, but from Bachmann, the manufacturer. It's called a "Manufacturer's Warranty" for a reason. The manufacturer warranties it. Not necissarily the retailer. So, no, the customer is not always right. {Techniacally, the full quote is refering to matters of taste, like color. Not everything.} (Just the experience of w*rking retail, including assistant manager, for years, has proven what I have just said.) P.S. - In NO way should my post be veiwed as critical of Trainworld, or their company policies dealing with defective items, or any other policies they may or may not have. I have been a happy Trainworld customer on several purchases.
I was talking about retailers. Not manufacturers.
Sorry but first world problems bother me a lot and a lot of people in buisness don't spell out the way to do things, they let you guess and then tell you you are wrong later, it would be better if they all ran by the same rules but you know that will never happen.
As I read the info on the TrainWorld website, you can return items directly to them. I would hope the OP has at least contacted them about the problem.
https://www.trainworld.com/returns-and-exchanges
I'm also still wondering if he's tried the engine on DC yet....
OP is welcome to try. They might take it back.
But when you fill out the return request they ask "Have you contacted the manufacturer" and "Is the item defective" When you answer the questions that give them the impression its a factory defect, they deny the return request under this broad statement from their policy:
Returned items must be in new and resalable condition with all original boxes and packing.
OP could lie and simply say that its fine and he no longer wants it, then they'll probably allow him to return it thinking its in resaleable condition.
Doughless OP is welcome to try. They might take it back. But when you fill out the return request they ask "Have you contacted the manufacturer" and "Is the item defective" When you answer the questions that give them the impression its a factory defect, they deny the return request under this broad statement from their policy: Returned items must be in new and resalable condition with all original boxes and packing. OP could lie and simply say that its fine and he no longer wants it, then they'll probably allow him to return it thinking its in resaleable condition.
DO NOT LIE ABOUT THE ITEM CONDITION!!!!!!!
All that will accomplish is two things -
1 - Pass the issue to the next (unlucky) purchaser.
2 - Make you (the lying party) a big jerk.
IF Trainworld caught on, they then would have "just cause" to BAN you, permenantly.
They also could take legal action for you deliberately commiting fraud.
Even suggesting this as optional is very disrespectful, and very much borderline illegal.
Totally disgusting it was even suggested....
Doughless...they deny the return request under this broad statement from their policy: Returned items must be in new and resalable condition with all original boxes and packing.
Of course, it would "be just like a certain kind of business" to fall back on that sort of ambiguous blanket statement to avoid having to eat any cost. I well remember the Volkswagen diesel engine in the New Beetle, touted as economical as hell, with a long 'all-inclusive' engine warranty. Until you noticed a little item in the warranty coverage -- it excepted belts from coverage, as common in engine warranties. This engine used a timing belt, which if it snapped or even stretched or jumped a tooth could produce catastrophic engine damage. VW in fact required that this belt be changed at relatively low mileage -- ISTR 60,000miles but that might be an exaggeration -- to keep the 'rest' of the warranty in force. To change this belt required taking the engine out of the car, over $800 at then dealer price. Where's my big savings? - let alone my warranty when I didn't read the fine print in my manual and the belt caused its problems...
You can as easily say the item was not received in expected condition, cancel the charge, or threaten legal action until you receive the serviceable item promised. I don't particularly like behaving that way toward any provider, but if they rely on Mickey Mouse they've already signalled the 'worth' of their relationship with you.
Overmod Doughless ...they deny the return request under this broad statement from their policy: Returned items must be in new and resalable condition with all original boxes and packing. That's not what that provision is supposed to mean. That says the original packaging is there, and that you didn't damage or change the item. You can as easily say the item was not received in expected condition, cancel the charge, or threaten legal action until you receive the serviceable item promised.
Doughless ...they deny the return request under this broad statement from their policy: Returned items must be in new and resalable condition with all original boxes and packing.
That's not what that provision is supposed to mean. That says the original packaging is there, and that you didn't damage or change the item.
You can as easily say the item was not received in expected condition, cancel the charge, or threaten legal action until you receive the serviceable item promised.
Ok, not sure that all of the representatives at TW understand the legalities of it.
Having dealt with TWs Return Portal application system, there is a series of questions that must be completed before they will accept a return and they encourage you to contact the manufacturer if it is a manufacturer problem.
As I said originally, contact TW and they may take it back, but be prepared to contact Bachmann.
They said to contact Bachmann and engine has been sent, we shall see.
My "problem" with on-line shopping for my model railroad is not the large, single, one time purchase, but the little maintenance items items like one package of special Kedee coulers or a tube of GOO or small detail parts. Stuff I used to go to a, "now-gone", local hobby shop for and then look around for other stuff. Fun. It's too expensive ordering these little items one at a time and pay all the different shipping charges, which are uisuslly higher than the single item. Now I make a list and try to order everthing at once from a single seller, if possible. But now projects and repairs are delayd until it becomes worth ordering. I wish a store like Hobby Lobby could partner with, and order from, Walthers with store pick-up, like the hobby shop used to do, with no shipping charge added to the cost. Used to take less than a week. Now I vented. Thanks.
rrebell They said to contact Bachmann and engine has been sent, we shall see.
Your very worst outcome will be that Bachmann cannot fix it or replace it do to lack of parts or new inventory.
In that case Bachmann will offer you a list of items of equal or greater value as a replacement.
Because of how I think about this stuff, I would have already placed an order for a replacement while they might still be available, then sort out the problem in whatever way becomes necessary.
Worst case, sell what they send you on Ebay and possibly come out ahead.......
I hear you Sheldon. Glad you added the details of how they handle things. Item has been on its way, we shall see what happens.
rrebell I hear you Sheldon. Glad you added the details of how they handle things. Item has been on its way, we shall see what happens.
No worries, I have a moderate amount of Bachmann and have had to return a few things for service or replacement. I have also bought parts for non warranty repairs on used stuff I have bought, and for kit bashing.
So I have a fair amount of experience with their service/parts department.
Interestingly, as a percentage of models I own, I have had way more "defects" with Broadway than with Bachmann......
OvermodA standard scam manufacturers use is to put a notice in the packaging saying DO NOT RETURN THIS PRODUCT TO THE STORE -- call our customer service or return for warranty instead. Do not fall for any version of this scam. Any time I have ever tried it, I have gotten lies, runarounds, and extra proposed costs (not counting my time).
I have had the opposite experience.
I purchased two products from Home Depot that were defective and had "Do Not Return To Store" instructions.
One was a Moen shower fixture, and one was a Ryobi power tool.
Both of these were handled immediately by the manufacturer to my complete satisfaction.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Interestingly, as a percentage of models I own, I have had way more "defects" with Broadway than with Bachmann......
Ditto. I own exactly 3 BLI units - 2 have had a defect. (Not counting the one totally DOA with no hope of saving. In that case, I have 4, with 3 defects...) So my "avereage" from them, on defects, is 66% (or 75)!!!!!
(I do not own any BLI railcars.)
I own a lot more from Bachmann, and had exactly 2 defects. (One a lighting wire was not connected [or broke off in transit], one a motor had bad brushes from the factory. I'm not counting the one where they missed a screw inside that held the rear gearbox in place in a Spectrum unit, as that is missing a screw, but not really a defect per say....)
Bachmann average is under 10%, count railcars as well, less than 5%. (This counts Bachmann units I was given and tested and passed on to a friends son who likes trains.)
And the one BLI - a 2-8-2 Mike, was a really bad design flaw creating a recurring defect. It has been fixed, twice by them, twice by me, and is again suffering from the exact same issue. It's currently sitting on a shelf, relegated to the "round to it" fix list. (And has been on said "round to it" list for a few years now...)
Let's not be too quick to jump all over BLI.
Here is my experience.
I have owned 9 BLI steamers, only 2 were returned for repairs, essentially the trailing trucks with weak springs on a 2-10-2 and a 2-10-4. The repairs were successful.
I have owned 7 Bachmann Spectrum steamers, 3 were returned, and Bachmann opted not to repair them, claiming no parts, and then gave me a choice of locomotives that I did not want.
I have never owned a Bachmann diesel, but I have owned 18 BLI diesels, none of which have had any defects.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain Let's not be too quick to jump all over BLI. Here is my experience. I have owned 9 BLI steamers, only 2 were returned for repairs, essentially the trailing trucks with weak springs on a 2-10-2 and a 2-10-4. The repairs were successful. I have owned 7 Bachmann Spectrum steamers, 3 were returned, and Bachmann opted not to repair them, claiming no parts, and then gave me a choice of locomotives that I did not want. I have never owned a Bachmann diesel, but I have owned 18 BLI diesels, none of which have had any defects. Rich
Rich, it is just the luck of the draw, all these companies have similar quality, and similar failure rates.
And it is the luck of the draw if you bought a Bachmann engine at the wrong point in tme when all the "replacements" had been sold or given away......
Maybe BLI does more in terms of parts and repairs, rather than replacing stuff, maybe not. I don't have any hard data. But they did not have parts for my two defective Mikados? My other 5 Broadway locos, all steam, are very good.
Bachmann did not always have a new loco to send me, one time they had the loco, but not in the correct roadname. They sent me the new loco, and my original body shells. Yes I had to do the swap.....
Several items I returned to Bachmann were used items I bought cheap, and was willing to pay their flat service fee to get repaired or replaced. Two of which were doodlebugs, In two cases they sent me the whole doodlebug/trailer coach combo because they did not have the right roadname.
In my case, I planned to repaint some of these doodlebugs anyway........
Other than Proto2000 cracked gears, I have never had a warranty issue with any brand of diesel (not counting the doodlebugs). LifeLike gave me about 20 locos worth of geared axles decades ago - when those ran out I happily bought some Athearn gears.
I don't have any BLI diesels and the only Bachmann diesels I have are 44 tonners and 70 tonners, and the gas/electric doodlebugs. Save those, all my Bachmann locos are steam, about 40 of them......three returned and replaced.
I will not disagree, in a perfect world these locos are always available for replacement, and/or parts are available to repair them. But you were part of the most recent conversation about that problem.....
I'm not picking on Broadway, I'm demonstrating that in the big picture Bachmann has a similar record.
And again, it is the luck of the draw. Which locos you are interested in, which locos have known issues, which locos end up being exceptional, when you buy them, all plays a roll in your personal experiance with each company.
Why don't I have Bachmann diesels other than those few special ones? Limited selection, better drives not introducted until after I had bought what I wanted, lack of detail, BUT mainly, Proto2000, Intermountain and Genesis already had most everything I was looking for.
I don't have any Atlas, KATO, Stewart or Bowser diesels either........ all great products just not on my "need list".
ricktrains4824As that is missing a screw, but not really a defect.
Correct, that is a workmanship error. It still should be covered by factory warranty.
richhotrainLet's not be too quick to jump all over BLI.
I owned one BLI locomotive, a 2-6-6-4, and it never ran. It was returned, and they refunded my money.
I have two BLI freight cars, both NYC steel boxcars. These were a major pain to bring to my specifcations for operation, but that is not a BLI issue. It does prevent any future sales to me.
Had one BLI, defective, fixable but I will just e-bay it as defective. One MTH, works perfect except for the automatic couplers, they work but I don't find them reliable. 12 Bachmann's (recently bought), all work perfect except the one I sent in for waranty.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Rich, it is just the luck of the draw, all these companies have similar quality, and similar failure rates. I'm not picking on Broadway, I'm demonstrating that in the big picture Bachmann has a similar record.
I just glanced at my roster and found that I have at least 65 BLI locomotives. Of those I have had some issues. I kept notes and off hand I'd say my "need to repair" rate runs around 10%. In every case Broadway service department has been helpful with either sending me the repair parts (usually faster than having them perform the work) or, in only one or two cases, replacing the loco with another one.
Even out of warranty they have been good at helping with repairs. I had a couple of PRR 2-10-0s with cracked axle gears. These were ten-year old engines. They gave me several options and I chose to send them the wheel/axle assemblies and they installed new gears and returned them to me at no charge. I only paid postage to Florida.
Just this week I needed a pair of handrails for a Mikado I bought over five years ago. They are sending me replacement handrails at no charge.
All three of my P5as needed new motors and decoders. Again they sent replacement parts and I made the simple repair myself. No need to return the bad parts.
Now here's something I haven't seen mentioned about Broadway — and that's their "Refurb Outlet" store. I don't know of another manufacturer that sells their repaired products, at about 40% off retail, on the open market. I wonder how many of these engines have defects that may go unnoticed or not properly repaired only to cause grief for the buyer down the road? I wonder if this increases the percieved repair rate? Over the years there has to be a pretty good number of "refurbs" out there.
In my opinion it seems like BLI has had a run of bad luck with the Paragon 3 decoder. Weather an inherent design flaw or perhaps a manufacturing problem it seems like their reliability took a hit with the introduction of these decoders.
They are now offering the P-4 version which hints at some "comprehensive bug fixes" plus a built in Go Pack (capacitor) which really shouldn't be necessary in most cases but apparently someone in marketing believes it to be necessary.
Still, I'm glad that Broadway has contributed to the hobby many locomotives and rolling stock that would have otherwise been shunned by other manufacturers. By far, the majority of my BLI engines, some going on 20 years old, have never given me one bit of trouble.
Regards, Ed
gmpullman I just glanced at my roster and found that I have at least 65 BLI locomotives. Of those I have had some issues. I kept notes and off hand I'd say my "need to repair" rate runs around 10%. In every case Broadway service department has been helpful with either sending me the repair parts (usually faster than having them perform the work) or, in only one or two cases, replacing the loco with another one. Even out of warranty they have been good at helping with repairs. I had a couple of PRR 2-10-0s with cracked axle gears. These were ten-year old engines. They gave me several options and I chose to send them the wheel/axle assemblies and they installed new gears and returned them to me at no charge. I only paid postage to Florida. Just this week I needed a pair of handrails for a Mikado I bought over five years ago. They are sending me replacement handrails at no charge. All three of my P5as needed new motors and decoders. Again they sent replacement parts and I made the simple repair myself. No need to return the bad parts. Now here's something I haven't seen mentioned about Broadway — and that's their "Refurb Outlet" store. I don't know of another manufacturer that sells their repaired products, at about 40% off retail, on the open market. I wonder how many of these engines have defects that may go unnoticed or not properly repaired only to cause grief for the buyer down the road? I wonder if this increases the percieved repair rate? Over the years there has to be a pretty good number of "refurbs" out there. In my opinion it seems like BLI has had a run of bad luck with the Paragon 3 decoder. Weather an inherent design flaw or perhaps a manufacturing problem it seems like their reliability took a hit with the introduction of these decoders. They are now offering the P-4 version which hints at some "comprehensive bug fixes" plus a built in Go Pack (capacitor) which really shouldn't be necessary in most cases but apparently someone in marketing believes it to be necessary. Still, I'm glad that Broadway has contributed to the hobby many locomotives and rolling stock that would have otherwise been shunned by other manufacturers. By far, the majority of my BLI engines, some going on 20 years old, have never given me one bit of trouble. Regards, Ed
I agree, Broadway has made a great contribution to the hobby overall.
As has Bachmann and others.
There is no question that Broadway, and Bachmann under the guidence of Lee Riley, ventured into offering steam locos and electric locos that others would have been unwilling to risk bringing to market.
As it applies to my modeling interests, most of the BLI catalog is outside what I need or want. The seven I have represent all but a few that would fit my theme.
I remain slightly disappointed tha Broadway did not continue to offer DC locomotives without sound. And I still feel they could have done a btter job with the Mikes and Pacifics. But I was happy to get my two READING T-1's in the "stealth line".
My other Broadway locos have simply had their decoders and sound systems removed. In fact, they have had their tenders completely replaced so they better fit the ATLANTIC CENTRAL family look.
I understand that a great many modelers enjoy onboard sound, and I agree that DCC is a necessary aspect of that, and is generally the best control choice for many modelers.
I chose a different path for a number of reasons.
So, I guess its good for me that Broadway has not offered more locos that are of interest to me, it saves me a few rewiring projects...
Having worked in this business, having repaired model trains for a living at one point, and having some background in manufacturing, I don't get too upset when products don't work - they can always be fixed, replaced or other wise delt with, no matter what brand.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL Rich, it is just the luck of the draw, all these companies have similar quality, and similar failure rates. I'm not picking on Broadway, I'm demonstrating that in the big picture Bachmann has a similar record. I agree with you, Sheldon, and in fact, that was my point. There is nothing inherently wrong with either BLI or Bachmann. In fact , one of my very favorite steamers is a Bachmann Spectrum 2-6-6-2. Rich
I agree with you, Sheldon, and in fact, that was my point. There is nothing inherently wrong with either BLI or Bachmann. In fact , one of my very favorite steamers is a Bachmann Spectrum 2-6-6-2.
I just love those little baby mallets, there are five of them here.
Someone said something about contribution and in that vein I have noticed that even companys that have never offered something in your era will eventualy do something. I got a bunch of MTH hoppers in my time period of 1939, we will see if the new owners will continue this trend, also Rapido is now ofering boxcars in my timeframe.
I don't mean to "pick on" any manufacturer, just my observations.
How many count the "Always Blown Headlights" in the original Genesis line a "defect"? With the LED availablity then and up until they finally gave in, I would include that as a "defect" in the design.
My perpetually defective BLI is the infamous "Chuff Sensor" issue they had in their steam loco's for a long time, due to the design using a Reed switch sensor.
The DOA was a unrepairable AC6000 that was refunded. (Blown Paragon Decoder, fried motor, plus other issues.)
Another Steamer and a second AC6000 have had zero issues.
As far as the poor workmanship screw never included, it was covered under warranty, but the LHS I purchased from simply gave me some screws that were the right size no charge next time I went there. (Saved having to ship for a screw worth maybe 10 cents tops....)
But, most manufacturers have a dud every now and then.
Well haven't gotten confirmation of delevery yet, who knows how long things take these days.
rrebell Well haven't gotten confirmation of delevery yet, who knows how long things take these days.
Did you not get a tracking number when you made the shipment?