TF .... Thanks for describing an interesting method to simulate coal hauling.
David North Brit .... You described a concept similar to a Model Railroader project layout of maybe 30 years ago. It was the Clinchfield Railroad layout in N scale. A loaded coal train departed the mine and circled around the layout to the power house. It then entered the power house and continued through a mountain. From there it would enter the back of the mine (out of view). Next it emerged from the mine to repeat the proces. Meanwhilee, and empty coal train dis the same thing running in the other direction.
Dave Nelson .... Thanks for your good discussion of coal hauling in Illinois. That is basically what I attempt to simulate. .... Your friend may have been too realistic using real coal dust. I wonder how often he had to clean his track. Real coal dust would be messy. I can see how his method evolved into running loaded trains and empty trains back and forth.
jjdamnit .... Thanks for describing your using Tyco hoppers.
Mr. B ... Your photos and discussion are very interesting. I have thought about doing something similar for hauling coke from my coke oven. My idea was to use operating side dump cars. (I never have time for all of my ideas. LOL )
CB&Q used SD7's to haul coal from southern Illinois mines. The units were equipped with creep controls so they could move a train slowly through the mine loading equipment.
GARRY
HEARTLAND DIVISION, CB&Q RR
EVERYWHERE LOST; WE HUSTLE OUR CABOOSE FOR YOU
Those are some great photos to start this thread, Garry, and more good ones have been added to the thread, too.
I also don't have room for a coal mine, but I do have two coaling towers and coal (and ice) dealers in most of the towns on my layout, which is set in the late '30s. I use "live" loads in all of my open cars (flats, gondolas, and hoppers), and use Black Beauty blasting medium to represent Anthracite coal, and coke breeze (the fines from industrial coke production) to represent coal, as there was plenty of both at the steel company where I worked - they used the Black Beauty in place of traction sand for the in-plant locomotives, and turned out hundred of tons of coke every day.
A few of the coal dealerships (as usual, click on the photos for a larger view)...
...and the coaling tower at Lowbanks...
...and the one at Mount Forest...
I have over 70 open hopper cars, the majority representing my freelanced roads. The rest represent real railroads, mostly in the U.S., although the Toronto Hamlton & Buffalo Railway, based in my hometown of Hamilton, Ontario, used a laker boat to send 32 empty TH&B hoppers from Port Maitland, Ontario to Ashtabula, Ohio, and the same 32 cars. loaded with coal, back to Port Maitland every 14 hours. This operation began on October 21, 1916, and lasted for 16 years.
Because of this, I've re-worked a dozen Bowser (formerly Stewart) channel-sided hoppers to better represent those used by the TH&B, to deliver coal solely for the two on-layout coaling towers....
The numerous coal dealerships on my layout will get their coal mostly in hoppers with American roadnames...
Wayne
SoupyFor all of you modeling coal operations, do you remove the loads to show the empties returning or do you have a separate set of empty cars in a staging area?
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/215446.aspx
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
richhotrain John-NYBW My own coal operations are quite simple. I didn't have space for either a coal mine or a coal consuming industry, other than two coaling towers. I have matching sets of coal hoppers, one for empties and one for loads. 15 cars per train (HO). My schematic is loop-to-loop but I have bypass tracks for the coal trains so they are running on an oval in opposite directions. Loads in one direction, empties in the other. I run my coal trains as extras so whenever I feel like it, I can send a coal train onto the visible part of the layout. I like that - - a lot. Rich
John-NYBW My own coal operations are quite simple. I didn't have space for either a coal mine or a coal consuming industry, other than two coaling towers. I have matching sets of coal hoppers, one for empties and one for loads. 15 cars per train (HO). My schematic is loop-to-loop but I have bypass tracks for the coal trains so they are running on an oval in opposite directions. Loads in one direction, empties in the other. I run my coal trains as extras so whenever I feel like it, I can send a coal train onto the visible part of the layout.
My own coal operations are quite simple. I didn't have space for either a coal mine or a coal consuming industry, other than two coaling towers. I have matching sets of coal hoppers, one for empties and one for loads. 15 cars per train (HO). My schematic is loop-to-loop but I have bypass tracks for the coal trains so they are running on an oval in opposite directions. Loads in one direction, empties in the other. I run my coal trains as extras so whenever I feel like it, I can send a coal train onto the visible part of the layout.
I like that - - a lot.
Rich
I have one loaded 27 car unit coal train going South/ East and one empty 30 car unit train heading North/West, twice each way each session
They run from staging to staging. TF probably ran them both! Ha!
Terry
Terry in NW Wisconsin
Queenbogey715 is my Youtube channel
Thanks for starting this thread Gary!!!!!
In the western Great Lakes before the advent of unit coal trains, coal was moved west by boat using bulk carriers that would take iron ore back east. Most port towns had coal docks where coal moved inland by train or truck.
Here is a 10 car coal train headed south to the Edgewater generating plant from the Reiss Coal Company docks on Lake Michigan. This was a daily occurance that ran as an extra in the real world and on my layout. More coal moves west in way freights to various power plants along the way and the paper making industries further to the west.
Scott
Soupy For all of you modeling coal operations, do you remove the loads to show the empties returning or do you have a separate set of empty cars in a staging area?
For all of you modeling coal operations, do you remove the loads to show the empties returning or do you have a separate set of empty cars in a staging area?
I already explained in a previous post how I use matching sets of coal trains, one for empties and one for loads, which run in opposite directions so I don't need to unload them. The exception is for the two coaling towers, one at the main engine facility and one on my branchline. For those I have 3 extra cars of loads that the loaded coal train will set out at the main yard and a switcher moves them to the coaling tower. After the ops session is over, I remove the loads. My loads are simply slabs of styrene paint black and then piled with WS black ballast glued in place. I'm experimenting by burying a KD between-the- rails magnet inside the piled coal and using a KD under-the-rails magnet to lift them out. I need to trim the edges of the coal slabs so they pop out more easily but I think this will work. When the empty coal train comes through it picks up these three empties and takes them back to staging. From there I fiddle those three hoppers back into the loaded coal train and drop the loads back in. It works the same on the branchline except only one load is dropped at the branchline interchange yard since it requires far less coal than the mainline.
One other point. The branchline is still under construction and I haven't built the engine servicing facility yet. It might not have a tower at all but instead a coal pile with a conveyer to load tenders. I'll make that decision when the time comes.
Thanks, Rich. A long time ago I read John Armstrong's book on layout design and was fascinated when he explained the loads in/empties out concept. I wanted to incorporate that in my current layout which I have been working on for almost 20 years now. I just couldn't work it in and have space for other things I wanted so this was the compromise solution.
Wayne... Thanks for your nice comment. Your photos certainly are realistic. Thanks for explaining you have several receivers of coal. Your hoppers are very nicely detailed, painted, lettered, and weathered.
Bear .... Thanks for the link to an explantion about making removable lads.
Terry ..... It sounds like you have a good way to run caol trains.
Scott .... Thank you for commenting. It is interesting you are operting coal trains as they were operated with coal from ships on Lake Michigan. Nice work !
John NYBW.... Your method for delivering three carloads of coal as part of your operations is very interesting. Thanks for explaining it. .... You also talked about having two matched trains (one loaded and one empty). My current operation is similar, but in my case I don't need the trains to match.
Everybody who particpated.... Thank you !
STRATTON AND GILLETTE coal hoppers have been known to get around.
This one is on the store layout at the old Metro Trains hobby shop in Fort Myers, Florida.
This one is on the store layout at The Trainmaster in Buford, Georgia.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Heartland Division CB&Q John NYBW.... Your method for delivering three carloads of coal as part of your operations is very interesting. Thanks for explaining it. .... You also talked about having two matched trains (one loaded and one empty). My current operation is similar, but in my case I don't need the trains to match.
When I said they were matching trains, I meant in numbers and types of cars. I found that when putting together a fleet of Erie hoppers I had to purchase from a number of sources and ended up with a mix of Accurail, Athearn, and Roundhouse hoppers. This gave me a mix of 2 and 3 bay hoppers and I just balance them out between the two trains. I have lots of duplicate numbers but since I don't switch them except for the coaling towers, that's not a problem. I just make sure the duplicate numbers get separated and not placed near each other in the same consist. I did get a set of twelve decals for renumbering the Accurail hoppers although I haven't got around to putting them on yet. I forgot to mention that the hoppers that get switched to the coaling towers were a set of Nickel Plate hoppers with unique numbers. I relettered them for my fictional railroad and kept the numbers.
I had an ABBA set of Erie F3s and I split it up between the two trains. I had one Atlas Erie caboose and was unable to find another. When Bachmann came out with their bay window Erie caboose, I got two of them.
I don't model the Erie but the coal train has traffic rights on my railroad and they carry coal from mines in Erie territory to a theoretical coal dock on my fictional railroad which is based loosely on the NYOW. They had a coal dock on the Hudson at Cornwall if I remember right. They ceased being a coal hauler and the coal dock got destroyed by fire and never replaced. In my fictional world, it's still operational.
EDIT: I found this article explaining the history of NYOW coal operations at Cornwall.
Cornwall On Hudson : : : Our Town: A Look at Cornwall-on-Hudson, NY : Photos from Cornwall-on-Hudson, NY : The O & W Railroad brought coal to Cornwall Landing
Lovin' all the coal hauling. Thanks Garry, regards, Peter
BEAUSABRE. Trucks took away the far more lucrative "retail" traffic - what used to be LCL is now LTL
Russell
Kevin .... S&G hoppers (and other freight cars) look good !
John .... Thanks for adding more interesting comments. I can imagine the Erie F-units look good hauling coal hoppers. That is a very interesting link you provided about Cornwell / Coal / O&W.
Peter ..... You are welcome. Your photo of the switcher and a BN coal hopper is outstanding.
....
After reading responses here, I am inspired to do some work on my coal operations. Actually, it is my coke cars I am thinking about. Presently, I have 6 Walthers coke hoppers which shuttle between the coke oven and the blast furnace, and they are always empty. I could make removable coke loads for them similar to what some of you do with coal loads. After doing that, I can have loaded cars going to the blast furnace and empty cars returning. ..... I like the idea.
To everybody who participated with pictures and discussions about coal hauling on model railroads: ..... THANK YOU ! ....
Heartland Division CB&Q John .... Thanks for adding more interesting comments. I can imagine the Erie F-units look good hauling coal hoppers. That is a very interesting link you provided about Cornwell / Coal / O&W.
You're welcome. One of these days I'm going to get around to posting some pictures. I need new batteries for my digital camera and still haven't settled on a picture sharing site yet.
Originally I bought the Erie locos with the idea of repainting them for my fictional road but then got the idea to run paired coal trains and I thought they would be perfect for that.
I don't know if you're familiar with NYOW operations but they ran on traffic rights on the NYC West Shore line from Weehawken to Cornwall, then turned west onto its own rails.
One thing has me puzzled. I built my coal loads on black slabs of styrene and then used tacky glue to put down a base layer of coal. I added the coal piles on top and glued them the same way I would with track ballast using diluted white glue. Several months later I noticed a white film had formed on top of many of these loads. I don't know if thats just the dried white glue or mildew. In either case, It shouldn't require more than just popping them out and spray painting them black. Has this happened to anybody else?
I'm currently in the process of building my branchline and last year I hit a wall building the town at the midpoint of the branch. Originally I envisioned it as little more than a whistle stop but it just started growing as I got more ideas and now it has a substantial downtown area. It's now the second largest town on the layout. I getting close to getting all the structures in and when that is done I should make some real headway. I move pretty fast when I'm laying track and creating scenery but structures bog me way down.
John .... Thanks for your latest thoughtful rpely, too. Yes, it would be good to see pictures when you are ready and able to do that. In recent times, my photos in the forum were taken with my iphone which is okay for forums but not for publishing in MR. .... Actually, I know very little about NYOW, and what you said about it was interesting. .... I don't know about the white film forming on your coal loads..... Your branchline project sounds fun. I know what you mean about building things that were not originally envissioned. In fact, I built my coal mine on a space of my layout that was originally going to be a town.
Everybody else..... Thanks again for participating.
Heartland Division CB&Q John .... Thanks for your latest thoughtful rpely, too. Yes, it would be good to see pictures when you are ready and able to do that. In recent times, my photos in the forum were taken with my iphone which is okay for forums but not for publishing in MR. .... Actually, I know very little about NYOW, and what you said about it was interesting. .... I don't know about the white film forming on your coal loads..... Your branchline project sounds fun. I know what you mean about building things that were not originally envissioned. In fact, I built my coal mine on a space of my layout that was originally going to be a town. Everybody else..... Thanks again for participating.
The real stumbling block to posting photos is finding a FREE photo sharing site. I used to use PhotoBucket until they started charging a premium if you wanted your photos available for others to see. I've looked at several others that were listed as free but they too charged a premium if you wanted to share your photos and some were difficult to figure out how to upload photos to. Are there any completely free photo sharing sites that are also intuitive as to uploading photos?
I have two Downtown Deco rows of commercial buildings left to construct and then I can continue on with laying branchline track. Since the structures are background and the track is near the edge of the benchwork, I like to complete the background scenes before laying the track in the foreground. This town is on a 7 foot long peninsula and about 4 feet of it is filled with structures. That's a lot of structures. I took advantage of some built-up structures as well as second hand structures from my LHS but still that's a lot of construction. Today's project is to lay the sidewalks for the last area of the town.
I decided to model a fictional road rather than the NYOW for two reasons. I wanted a transition era railroad and the NYOW completed dieselization earlier than most railroads. I also wanted lots of passenger traffic and by the 1950s, the NYOW had become a freight only carrier. In the first half of the 20th century, they did a brisk business taking New Yorkers, especially Jewish residents, to the Catskills during the summer months. Their dining cars even served kosher meals. Eventually that business dwindled and by 1957 even freight couldn't keep them in business. They threw in the towel and filed for abandonment. At the time it was the largest Class 1 railroad to go under.
John-NYBW The real stumbling block to posting photos is finding a FREE photo sharing site. I used to use PhotoBucket until they started charging a premium if you wanted your photos available for others to see. I've looked at several others that were listed as free but they too charged a premium if you wanted to share your photos and some were difficult to figure out how to upload photos to. Are there any completely free photo sharing sites that are also intuitive as to uploading photos?
Hi John,
I switched to Imgur about 3 weeks ago and have found it to be completely usable. I can drag and drop my photos into the sight and getting the link to post on the forum is a simple as clicking on your photo to enlarge it and click on the direct link button. No down sides as of yet.
Scott Sonntag
Lakeshore Sub John-NYBW The real stumbling block to posting photos is finding a FREE photo sharing site. I used to use PhotoBucket until they started charging a premium if you wanted your photos available for others to see. I've looked at several others that were listed as free but they too charged a premium if you wanted to share your photos and some were difficult to figure out how to upload photos to. Are there any completely free photo sharing sites that are also intuitive as to uploading photos? Hi John, I switched to Imgur about 3 weeks ago and have found it to be completely usable. I can drag and drop my photos into the sight and getting the link to post on the forum is a simple as clicking on your photo to enlarge it and click on the direct link button. No down sides as of yet. Scott Sonntag
Thanks for the tip. I'll give it a try.
EDIT: This is a test for Imgur. Since this isn't a model railroading image, I'm posting it here instead of WPF. Here goes:
OK, that worked. I had to click on BBCode in order to get the image to come up. When I copied Direct Link, it just brought up the URL and it wasn't even a clickable link. Looks like I've found the picture hosting site to allow me to post pictures. Thank you.
From what I hear, Imgur works well. I have been using Flickr ever since the problems with Photobucket. ... I would be happy if we could post photos directly into this forum from our computers or our iPhones. Other sites allow that .
John ... Your layout sounds very nice, and I hope you can post pictures in the near future. Thanks again for interesting information about NYOW.
Regarding hauling coal and coke, I am looking at my coke hoppers , and I think adding removable loads is a good idea.
One of the three cars of coal have been unloaded at the blast furnace here:
Stock_Track by Edmund, on Flickr
More coal is being switched here:
Brakeman2 by Edmund, on Flickr
Great stuff here, fellows!
Regards, Ed
No. Yes. No.
I have a steel mill and a coal-fired power plant on my layout as well as a magical mystical mine that produces coal (as well as every other known mineral).
I have coal porters, ore cars, open- and covered hoppers, and open- and covered gondolas. All have removable simulated loads of the mineral of interest.
No, I do not remove the loads after the trains reach their destinations to return the empties to the mine. No, I do not have a string of empties hiding nearby behind a screen to emerge and change places with the loaded train for the return trip. But that is a clever scenario I've imagined. And no, I do not have a separate set of cars in the main staging yard. But that is another possibility.
The narrative is that whenever a loaded coal drag is on the layout, no matter where it is or what direction it is travelling, it is enroute to either the steel mill or the power plant. And, similarly, a string of empties anywhere on the layout is headed to the mine.
Not sure this helps, but it is the operational simulation I use.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
John NYBW wrote: "Eventually that business dwindled and by 1957 even freight couldn't keep them in business. They threw in the towel and filed for abandonment. At the time it was the largest Class 1 railroad to go under."
Actually, the government (through the bankruptcy court) forced the O&W to liquidate after they missed Railroad Retirement payments to the feds.
I worked some O&W territory in my younger (Conrail) days, in the Middletown (NY) area. We'd take cars from Campbell Hall to Four Story Junction (where the O&W crossed the Graham line), then down through the former Middletown Yard (only one track left), by the yard office then down by the O&W station, ending up at the Middletown & New Jersey. A lot of history in those old rails.
A bit more on-topic ("coal")...
Some years later I was out following the O&W roadbed between Summitville and the Red Hill grade to the west. Much of the roadbed is still intact and undisturbed, the ties are still in place (the rail having been recovered after abandonment).
Stopped for a nature call, and walked into the woods and found the old roadbed. I looked down and... what's this?
Lumps of coal. It had to have gotten there "by rail". It either fell off an engine (last steam ran in 1948), or perhaps fell from a coal hopper (the coal business collapsed by the late 40's as well). It couldn't have ended up there any other way.
I gathered up several chunks of it and brought it home. Still have the "O&W coal" in a plastic box...
OldEnginemanI gathered up several chunks of it and brought it home. Still have the "O&W coal" in a plastic box...
I hope you dried it off first
Funny thing about artifacts. I have a chunk of brick from the Mingo Junction roundhouse that has one side of it painted Penn Central green and a slate from the NYC Ashtabula depot roof, now gone. One of my favorites is a copper clamp used to hold the catenary wire to the messenger wire I found while walking the Cleveland Union Terminal route just east of the Terminal Tower in the '70s. The catenary had been removed in 1952.
My kids will sure wonder why dad had a chunk of brick on his bookshelf when I'm gone.
Robert .... Thanks for your very interesting post describing coal hauling operations on your layout.
Old Engineman .... Thanks for sharing your insights about the O&W. Nice you could take home your treasure (O&W coal).
Ed .... Apparently, you have accumulated some interesting artifacts. Thanks for sharing your pictures of coal being delivered to the blast furnace.
Below is my coke oven. It is made from the original Walthers kit. I added scratch built machines and structures.
The last photo shows coke and ore being delivered to the blast furnace. (also an original Walthers kit)
saronaterry richhotrain John-NYBW My own coal operations are quite simple. I didn't have space for either a coal mine or a coal consuming industry, other than two coaling towers. I have matching sets of coal hoppers, one for empties and one for loads. 15 cars per train (HO). My schematic is loop-to-loop but I have bypass tracks for the coal trains so they are running on an oval in opposite directions. Loads in one direction, empties in the other. I run my coal trains as extras so whenever I feel like it, I can send a coal train onto the visible part of the layout. I like that - - a lot. Rich Plus one! I have one loaded 27 car unit coal train going South/ East and one empty 30 car unit train heading North/West, twice each way each session They run from staging to staging. TF probably ran them both! Ha! Terry
Plus one!
It looks like I somehow missed another one I came across today.
I remember that day at Terry's beautiful home off the lake in rural Wisconsin. Yes, a basement completely filled with an HO train layout. I remember running them both. The loaded coal drag and the empty one.
The layout was continuous around the whole perimeter of the basement with separate sections and bays of railroad activity modeled after different towns in his area.
What was so cool about Terry's layout was how the train would go into a tunnel and then go under the layout to a separate staging room just off the bottom of the stairs. Then another train could be started under the layout to suddenly appear out of a tunnel on the other side. Or vice-versa depending on which way the trains were faced. That's how I remember it.
He had a whole separate room dedicated to staging. There was enough trains lined up in there to sink a battleship.
Yep! That was a day to remember as we certainly had a lot of fun
TF
Track fiddler I remember that day at Terry's beautiful home off the lake in rural Wisconsin. Yes, a basement completely filled with an HO train layout. I remember running them both. The loaded coal drag and the empty one. The layout was continuous around the whole perimeter of the basement with separate sections and bays of railroad activity modeled after different towns in his area. What was so cool about Terry's layout was how the train would go into a tunnel and then go under the layout to a separate staging room just off the bottom of the stairs. Then another train could be started under the layout to suddenly appear out of a tunnel on the other side. Or vice-versa depending on which way the trains were faced. That's how I remember it. He had a whole separate room dedicated to staging. There was enough trains lined up in there to sink a battleship.
By the way, I took a YouTube tour of Terry's layout. Wow, quite a ride. Beautiful layout and quite realistic.
Alton Junction
Lastspikemike Demand for coal began with iron production in the 1700's. Charcoal burners couldn't keep up with the demand. Turned out coal was handy stuff to fire steam engines which making iron and then steel made pretty easy. Coal's relationship with steel is permanent. When steel making declined in North America (well everywhere high labour costs inhibited cost reductions) so did coal consumption. Then the greenies really got going as natural gas became so cheap and coal for power generation also declined. But not everywhere. Western Canada runs huge coal trains from the Rockies to the Pacific terminal at Roberts Bank. We don't burn much coal ourselves, never have because we don't have the people using power. But we export the stuff to Asia where they do burn it both for steel making and power generation. Coal and trains are going to be together for a very long time yet. The more modern you get the more you'll be tempted by N scale to model coal trains. You'd think N scale was developed specifically for modelling modern unit trains.
Demand for coal began with iron production in the 1700's. Charcoal burners couldn't keep up with the demand.
Turned out coal was handy stuff to fire steam engines which making iron and then steel made pretty easy.
Coal's relationship with steel is permanent.
When steel making declined in North America (well everywhere high labour costs inhibited cost reductions) so did coal consumption. Then the greenies really got going as natural gas became so cheap and coal for power generation also declined.
But not everywhere.
Western Canada runs huge coal trains from the Rockies to the Pacific terminal at Roberts Bank.
We don't burn much coal ourselves, never have because we don't have the people using power. But we export the stuff to Asia where they do burn it both for steel making and power generation.
Coal and trains are going to be together for a very long time yet.
The more modern you get the more you'll be tempted by N scale to model coal trains. You'd think N scale was developed specifically for modelling modern unit trains.
Please guys, Garry asked for this thread not to be a discussion of coal or alternatives.
Heartland Division CB&QPlease, let's not digress into an off-topic converation about long term trends regarding coal vs. other energy sources.
Instead, please join in and share pictures of your trains hauling coal.
One from the vaults:
LastspikemikeNot changing anytime soon.
You are being very disrespectful to the OP, and his guidance for this thread.
I hope that you do change.
I am not going to comment any more out of respect for my friend Garry.
Please do share pictures of your coal cars. Here is another of mine.
Lastspikemike rrebell Haven't you heard, greenies now hate natural gas, in new construction you can't use it for stoves etc. in some comunitys in California. I have. They evidently haven't done the maths.
rrebell Haven't you heard, greenies now hate natural gas, in new construction you can't use it for stoves etc. in some comunitys in California.
Haven't you heard, greenies now hate natural gas, in new construction you can't use it for stoves etc. in some comunitys in California.
I have. They evidently haven't done the maths.
Please be careful ..... Stay on topic, please.
Last Spike Mike ...... Of course, your comment "Coal and trains are going to be together for a very long time yet. " is on topic and certainly appreciated. Also it does make sense to model unit trains in N scale. Thank you.
Kevin ... Thanks for your pictures of coal hoppers.