ATLANTIC CENTRAL AND, just because they choose to target parts of the market that don't include your needs, or my needs, that does not make their products less valueable to the hobby.
AND, just because they choose to target parts of the market that don't include your needs, or my needs, that does not make their products less valueable to the hobby.
No one said that they are. I said it was not for me, and the price was a deal breaker. The price they are going for on eBay is a deal breaker. I find it ironic that you are quick to complain about a manufacture only offering a product that comes with DCC and sound, but yet take such offense to be saying a model is too generic for the price point.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL And, I drive domestic cars, and have gotten very good service out of them going all the way back to one of these:
And, I drive domestic cars, and have gotten very good service out of them going all the way back to one of these:
Great. If you look at my avatar you can see I also have a domestic, I can assure you that Dodge did not have much of a discount on that car. That being said, that is the only domestic car in my house, and has been for 15 years. Since this isn't the Car and Driver forum, I will not get into why.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL And, lastly, I'm not an expensive model collector.
And, lastly, I'm not an expensive model collector.
No one said you were. You called me that in another thread. I found so much humor in it, that I added it to my profile here. Since you hinted that I am an "elitist" in this thread, I might have to update my profile.
An "expensive model collector"
n012944 Trainman440 Someone decided to mess with the Sheldon, and I think he finally broke the record for the longest quoted text (first post second page) I dont see why these arguments consistantly persist, its very clear both parties are set with their opinions, and no amount of arguing will convince the other. These arguments start when someone can't handle a negative opinion about a model manufacturer. The OP asked for an opinion, and I gave mine based on research. Evidently Sheldon can't handle negative opinions about Bachmann Trainman440 Both manufacs have their advantages and disadvantages. I think both are reputable manufacturers. BLI made a mistake and I think they are handling it very well. Bachmann models are generally less detailed but they have their reasons to be so sucessfull with their competative pricing and quality. I agree with that statement. Trainman440 For the record I think its ridiculous if anyone is judging Bachmann by their MSRP. Everyone knows the MSRP should not be used to judge Bachmann's models, I dont think ANYONE has paid $300 for a Bachmann E7. And if you have I feel sorry for you. Do some research next time. I did some research. I looked up the MR review. I did not know that Bachmann had to resort to being like the domestic auto makers in inflating the price, then giving large rebates to convince people to buy their product. And as I said, if someone didn't get at least 60% of of the MSRP, I feel sorry for them as well.
Trainman440 Someone decided to mess with the Sheldon, and I think he finally broke the record for the longest quoted text (first post second page) I dont see why these arguments consistantly persist, its very clear both parties are set with their opinions, and no amount of arguing will convince the other.
Someone decided to mess with the Sheldon, and I think he finally broke the record for the longest quoted text (first post second page)
I dont see why these arguments consistantly persist, its very clear both parties are set with their opinions, and no amount of arguing will convince the other.
These arguments start when someone can't handle a negative opinion about a model manufacturer. The OP asked for an opinion, and I gave mine based on research. Evidently Sheldon can't handle negative opinions about Bachmann
Trainman440 Both manufacs have their advantages and disadvantages. I think both are reputable manufacturers. BLI made a mistake and I think they are handling it very well. Bachmann models are generally less detailed but they have their reasons to be so sucessfull with their competative pricing and quality.
Both manufacs have their advantages and disadvantages. I think both are reputable manufacturers. BLI made a mistake and I think they are handling it very well. Bachmann models are generally less detailed but they have their reasons to be so sucessfull with their competative pricing and quality.
I agree with that statement.
Trainman440 For the record I think its ridiculous if anyone is judging Bachmann by their MSRP. Everyone knows the MSRP should not be used to judge Bachmann's models, I dont think ANYONE has paid $300 for a Bachmann E7. And if you have I feel sorry for you. Do some research next time.
For the record I think its ridiculous if anyone is judging Bachmann by their MSRP. Everyone knows the MSRP should not be used to judge Bachmann's models, I dont think ANYONE has paid $300 for a Bachmann E7. And if you have I feel sorry for you. Do some research next time.
I did some research. I looked up the MR review. I did not know that Bachmann had to resort to being like the domestic auto makers in inflating the price, then giving large rebates to convince people to buy their product. And as I said, if someone didn't get at least 60% of of the MSRP, I feel sorry for them as well.
I can handle the truth when it is the fair complete truth, and would be first person to tell you which Bachmann models to avoid if you are not the kit bashing, tinkering, fix it yourself type. And I can tell which products had growing pains but are now very nice.
Your lack of knowledge about the street prices still seems disingenuous. It's not a recent development. And in previous threads you have had your share to say about Bachmann stuff from 25-30 years ago. Some of that stuff by the way was pretty crappy.
Again, it is my view that just because a company makes one dud, that does not mean everything they make is a dud. AND, just because they choose to target parts of the market that don't include your needs, or my needs, that does not make their products less valueable to the hobby.
And, lastly, I'm not an expensive model collector. I only buy models that fit the theme of my layout, I do lots of kitbashing and reworking, I'm a bargain hunter, and the dollar cost average of my 140 loco roster is less than $100 each.
They all run well and and look good, be they Bachmann, Proto, Broadway, Genesis, Intermountain, some old brass and a few others.
Sheldon
I did some research. I looked up the MR review. I did not know that Bachmann had to resort to being like the domestic auto makers in inflating the price, then giving large rebates to convince people to buy their product. And as I said, if someone didn't get at least 60% of of the MSRP, I feel sorry for them as well. The model seem to going for around $160 dollars on eBay, so I will rephrase my original comment. $165 for a crappy decoder and non proto detail is deal breaker.
Trainman440 Great Northern Fan 54 This discussion went south REALLY quickly Someone decided to mess with the Sheldon, and I think he finally broke the record for the longest quoted text (first post second page) I dont see why these arguments consistantly persist, its very clear both parties are set with their opinions, and no amount of arguing will convince the other. Both manufacs have their advantages and disadvantages. I think both are reputable manufacturers. BLI made a mistake and I think they are handling it very well. Bachmann models are generally less detailed but they have their reasons to be so sucessfull with their competative pricing and quality. For the record I think its ridiculous if anyone is judging Bachmann by their MSRP. Everyone knows the MSRP should not be used to judge Bachmann's models, I dont think ANYONE has paid $300 for a Bachmann E7. And if you have I feel sorry for you. Do some research next time. Congrats on the purchase! Looking forward to your opinions on the model. Charles
Great Northern Fan 54 This discussion went south REALLY quickly
Congrats on the purchase! Looking forward to your opinions on the model.
Charles
Thank you Charles. You and I do not always agree, but I hope you understand I respect your opinions and your knowledge in this hobby that you are on a constant mission to expand and share.
And you made my point, Bachmann's pricing policies may or many not be the best way to do business, but it is well established none the less.
The difference between a fussy, semi rivet counting experienced modeler who decides he wants something more upscale and an elitist is that the elitist thinks Bachmann and others should not even make those "lessor" products.
And that tone, that says "they should not make it at all if they are not going to make it right" comes thru loud and clear from a number of the "brand bashers".
Great Northern, best of luck with your new loco, have fun.
Great Northern Fan 54This discussion went south REALLY quickly
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Modeling the PRR & NYC in HO
Youtube Channel: www.youtube.com/@trainman440
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Great Northern Fan 54I ordered a Bachmann EMD E7 in CB&Q, time to see how good they are
Rich
Alton Junction
n012944 ATLANTIC CENTRAL I pick on Broadway BECAUSE I feel too many people pick on Bachmann unfairly. And because, it seems just the opposite of Bachmann, they seem to get a soft pass on their problems, problems they charge a lot more money for..... So your trolling? Sad. There was a recent thread going after Broadway for issues with their new NP 4-8-4. Maybe you were uninformed of this? Broadway seems to be taking their lumps, justified it seems, over their Paragon 3 issues. I haven't seen anyone give them a "soft pass". Go ahead and keep "ragging" on Broadway. I don't own stock in them, I don't know the owners, so your "ragging" does not bother me. I bet people who you think "pick on Bachmann unfairly" feel the same. Although it is a pretty hypocritical stance you have chosen to take. ATLANTIC CENTRAL Your reply seemed very curt, or possibly uninformed? I admit, I did not know the price one could get a Bachmann E7 for. I am not surprised, and feel sorry for anyone that paid list price for that model. Really, if someone didn't get it for at least 60% off, they overpaid. As for the curtness, I give what I get. You are not shy about giving your opinions about models, don't get upset when someone else givers theirs.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I pick on Broadway BECAUSE I feel too many people pick on Bachmann unfairly. And because, it seems just the opposite of Bachmann, they seem to get a soft pass on their problems, problems they charge a lot more money for.....
I pick on Broadway BECAUSE I feel too many people pick on Bachmann unfairly. And because, it seems just the opposite of Bachmann, they seem to get a soft pass on their problems, problems they charge a lot more money for.....
So your trolling? Sad. There was a recent thread going after Broadway for issues with their new NP 4-8-4. Maybe you were uninformed of this? Broadway seems to be taking their lumps, justified it seems, over their Paragon 3 issues. I haven't seen anyone give them a "soft pass".
Go ahead and keep "ragging" on Broadway. I don't own stock in them, I don't know the owners, so your "ragging" does not bother me. I bet people who you think "pick on Bachmann unfairly" feel the same. Although it is a pretty hypocritical stance you have chosen to take.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Your reply seemed very curt, or possibly uninformed?
Your reply seemed very curt, or possibly uninformed?
I admit, I did not know the price one could get a Bachmann E7 for. I am not surprised, and feel sorry for anyone that paid list price for that model. Really, if someone didn't get it for at least 60% off, they overpaid. As for the curtness, I give what I get. You are not shy about giving your opinions about models, don't get upset when someone else givers theirs.
My point has always been this, and if the search function worked you find me saying this on here a decade ago.
Judging these models by the "brand" will likely exclude models you may very much be happy to own, Bachmann, Broadway, Walthers, Athearn, etc, have all made their winners and loosers as I can attest to going back to when I managed a model train department.
But there still seems to be some built in bias from 40 years ago, when Bachmann and LifeLike were in the "junky toy train" business.
Let it go people, that is history.
Actually I wish all these companies well, but I do have opinions as to what might work better for them - things they have not tried........
And that includes Bachmann.
And I understand they have an uphill battle deciding what to make and how good to make it.
And I know my own tastes and needs are somewhat outside the mainstream of the hobby today.
The Bachmann E7 model is what it is, it is a mid grade, mid featured, and based on street prices, mid range priced model. That is exactly what some people in this hobby are looking for. ESPECIALLY in this age when many people in the hobby are more "casual" modelers and not craftsman and not interested in extreem accuracy.
There is an evolutional irony in where this hobby has been in the last 25 years and where it seems to be headed.
There are currently 4 undecorated Proto E7's on Ebay right now, all less than $100.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Life-Like-PROTO-2000-HO-Scale-UNDECORATED-E7A-LOCOMOTIVE-with-DCC/265056776247?hash=item3db69d7037:g:DxYAAOSwraBgLHzH
Seems like a no brainer to me.
Great Northern Fan 54If I were to repaint an E7 into GN, would the Bachmann one be the easiest?
So, you asking would the Bachmann shell be easier to paint than the Proto shell?
Either way, you should strip the excisting/old paint off first.
I don't know if one would strip easier than the other. To me, it wouldn't matter, I would pick the loco that fits what I want, strip it, and repaint and decal it, and add the appropriate details.
Mike.
My You Tube
Great Northern Fan 54 If I were to repaint an E7 into GN, would the Bachmann one be the easiest?
If I were to repaint an E7 into GN, would the Bachmann one be the easiest?
Well, not in my opinion because you should likely strip the paint off.
The easiest would be to find a Proto units already lettered GN, or find an undecorated Proto and paint it.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Proto-2000-E7A-Locomotive-920-40960-Great-Northern-511-A-A-Unit-w-Sound-DCC/154043468625?epid=1400425625&hash=item23ddb4cb51:g:418AAOSwD~FfND~p
richhotrain I am going to leave you with this thought, Sheldon, and I hope that in some small way you will feel bad. I went down to my layout and assembled all of my BLI E-units together. I said to them, Listen Up. A fellow modeler told me the following. Quote. "I'll tell you what E unit I would never buy, the over priced crappy, bulky oversized detail Broadway models with front couplers that stick out too far, oversized couple holes in the pilot, no other pilot details and crappy diaphragms". Sheldon, if you listen closely, you can actually hear the sobbing, weeping, and gnashing of teeth. My layout will never be the same. I hope you're happy. Rich
I am going to leave you with this thought, Sheldon, and I hope that in some small way you will feel bad.
I went down to my layout and assembled all of my BLI E-units together. I said to them, Listen Up. A fellow modeler told me the following. Quote.
"I'll tell you what E unit I would never buy, the over priced crappy, bulky oversized detail Broadway models with front couplers that stick out too far, oversized couple holes in the pilot, no other pilot details and crappy diaphragms".
Sheldon, if you listen closely, you can actually hear the sobbing, weeping, and gnashing of teeth. My layout will never be the same. I hope you're happy.
Let the locos know I am sorry, and they are worthy despite any short comings. I will work on some remedial upgrades for their couplers, espeically those front ones out in space.
n012944 ATLANTIC CENTRAL n012944 Trainman440 They lack detail (especially prototype specific detail), but are dimensionally accurate. They got the sound value decoders which basically give it horn bell prime mover sound. If you dont mind the value decoder and detail isnt important to you, then its fine...but I agree an old proto 2000 model is far superior. $300 for a crappy decoder and non proto detail is deal breaker. https://mrr.trains.com/news-reviews/staff-reviews/2017/03/bachmann-soundvalue-ho-scale-emd-e7a First of all, they are not really $300. You can buy all the sound and value Bachmann E7's you want for $180 each. And you can buy the DC version for $80 and put in whatever decoder you like. So they are going for the JC Penny or domestic automaker route of a high list price, then lots of discounts so people seem to think they are getting a deal? Ouch. Or are they just unable to sell them at their list price, and have to discount them? ATLANTIC CENTRAL This has been discussed over and over. OK, If you want a better detailed model get your wallet out and buy them, they are out there from other brands. Great. ATLANTIC CENTRAL Bachmann makes trains for beginners on limited budgets, they make mid grade models for those not so fussy, and they make a few REALLY NICE high end pieces. According to the linked MR article, they were trying to get $300 for a generic model. ATLANTIC CENTRAL My E unit of choice is the old Proto 2000 units I agree with you there. Although I think the Rapido E unit will be a better model. ATLANTIC CENTRAL I'll tell you what E unit I would never buy, the over priced crappy, bulky oversized detail Broadway models with front couplers that stick out too far, oversized couple holes in the pilot, no other pilot details and crappy diaphragms. But, I admit, I have a big bias because I don't use DCC and they don't sell DC. They seem to approach "detail" from the point of view that it needs to be somewhat "robust", I have no trouble with delicate models. Who said anything about the Broadway model? I don't care that much for it either. I have one, it was a gift. The only reason I even still have it is for sentimental reasons. ATLANTIC CENTRAL So I get it, the Bachmann model is not for you, I'm not buying that particular model from them either. But that does not mean we have to start ragging on Bachmann. They provide lots of important stuff to this hobby overall - and a good bit of what you like from other brands likely comes from their factories.......... So, you don't want me "ragging" on Bachmann, but yet you consistenly "rag" on Broadway Limited? Even to the point of bringing up a Broadway Limited model that was not even being discussed in this thread? Got it. The OP asked for opinions on the model, which I gave. If my opinion is "ragging" on the model manufacture, get over it.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL n012944 Trainman440 They lack detail (especially prototype specific detail), but are dimensionally accurate. They got the sound value decoders which basically give it horn bell prime mover sound. If you dont mind the value decoder and detail isnt important to you, then its fine...but I agree an old proto 2000 model is far superior. $300 for a crappy decoder and non proto detail is deal breaker. https://mrr.trains.com/news-reviews/staff-reviews/2017/03/bachmann-soundvalue-ho-scale-emd-e7a First of all, they are not really $300. You can buy all the sound and value Bachmann E7's you want for $180 each. And you can buy the DC version for $80 and put in whatever decoder you like.
n012944 Trainman440 They lack detail (especially prototype specific detail), but are dimensionally accurate. They got the sound value decoders which basically give it horn bell prime mover sound. If you dont mind the value decoder and detail isnt important to you, then its fine...but I agree an old proto 2000 model is far superior. $300 for a crappy decoder and non proto detail is deal breaker. https://mrr.trains.com/news-reviews/staff-reviews/2017/03/bachmann-soundvalue-ho-scale-emd-e7a
Trainman440 They lack detail (especially prototype specific detail), but are dimensionally accurate. They got the sound value decoders which basically give it horn bell prime mover sound. If you dont mind the value decoder and detail isnt important to you, then its fine...but I agree an old proto 2000 model is far superior.
They lack detail (especially prototype specific detail), but are dimensionally accurate. They got the sound value decoders which basically give it horn bell prime mover sound.
If you dont mind the value decoder and detail isnt important to you, then its fine...but I agree an old proto 2000 model is far superior.
$300 for a crappy decoder and non proto detail is deal breaker.
https://mrr.trains.com/news-reviews/staff-reviews/2017/03/bachmann-soundvalue-ho-scale-emd-e7a
First of all, they are not really $300. You can buy all the sound and value Bachmann E7's you want for $180 each. And you can buy the DC version for $80 and put in whatever decoder you like.
So they are going for the JC Penny or domestic automaker route of a high list price, then lots of discounts so people seem to think they are getting a deal? Ouch. Or are they just unable to sell them at their list price, and have to discount them?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL This has been discussed over and over. OK, If you want a better detailed model get your wallet out and buy them, they are out there from other brands.
This has been discussed over and over. OK, If you want a better detailed model get your wallet out and buy them, they are out there from other brands.
Great.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Bachmann makes trains for beginners on limited budgets, they make mid grade models for those not so fussy, and they make a few REALLY NICE high end pieces.
Bachmann makes trains for beginners on limited budgets, they make mid grade models for those not so fussy, and they make a few REALLY NICE high end pieces.
According to the linked MR article, they were trying to get $300 for a generic model.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL My E unit of choice is the old Proto 2000 units
My E unit of choice is the old Proto 2000 units
I agree with you there. Although I think the Rapido E unit will be a better model.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I'll tell you what E unit I would never buy, the over priced crappy, bulky oversized detail Broadway models with front couplers that stick out too far, oversized couple holes in the pilot, no other pilot details and crappy diaphragms. But, I admit, I have a big bias because I don't use DCC and they don't sell DC. They seem to approach "detail" from the point of view that it needs to be somewhat "robust", I have no trouble with delicate models.
I'll tell you what E unit I would never buy, the over priced crappy, bulky oversized detail Broadway models with front couplers that stick out too far, oversized couple holes in the pilot, no other pilot details and crappy diaphragms.
But, I admit, I have a big bias because I don't use DCC and they don't sell DC. They seem to approach "detail" from the point of view that it needs to be somewhat "robust", I have no trouble with delicate models.
Who said anything about the Broadway model? I don't care that much for it either. I have one, it was a gift. The only reason I even still have it is for sentimental reasons.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL So I get it, the Bachmann model is not for you, I'm not buying that particular model from them either. But that does not mean we have to start ragging on Bachmann. They provide lots of important stuff to this hobby overall - and a good bit of what you like from other brands likely comes from their factories..........
So I get it, the Bachmann model is not for you, I'm not buying that particular model from them either.
But that does not mean we have to start ragging on Bachmann. They provide lots of important stuff to this hobby overall - and a good bit of what you like from other brands likely comes from their factories..........
So, you don't want me "ragging" on Bachmann, but yet you consistenly "rag" on Broadway Limited? Even to the point of bringing up a Broadway Limited model that was not even being discussed in this thread? Got it.
The OP asked for opinions on the model, which I gave. If my opinion is "ragging" on the model manufacture, get over it.
It is a long known fact that Bachmann is a heavily discounted line. I'm not saying I agree with that marketing approach, any more than I agree with some other marketing approaches in this business, like MTH or BLI.
But it is what is.
So it just seemed disingenuous to act as if Bachmann products typically sell at or near retail or even at the typical 25% or 30% off when they are commonly available at 40% off, sometimes more. Magazine reviews are not going to get into actual street prices of any product.
Broadway makes nice enough stuff, but most of it does not fit my needs, just like the Bachmann E7 dose not fit my needs or your needs.
But my perspective is partly from my previous experiance behind the shop counter - not everyone's needs are the same as mine.
I have seven BLI steamers and 35 Bachmann steamers, I don't see any real difference in quailty. Of course there are no decoders in any of them, that solves a lot of BLI problems......
I don't have any road diesels from either, because Proto, Intermountain, Genesis and others are so much better.
The Bachmann E unit does have several different shells with some road specific changes.
I'm sure the Rapido E will be very nice, but I'm not replacing my Protos, Rapido is 25 years too late, has yet to announce the two roadnmaes I would buy, and we never know if the undecorated models will show up.
richhotrain Sheldon, I get your point. After re-reading your post a few times, it seems that you are going after the anti-Bachmann crowd than the BLI followers.
Sheldon, I get your point. After re-reading your post a few times, it seems that you are going after the anti-Bachmann crowd than the BLI followers.
Which is pathetic. Model manufactures are not sports teams or political parties. They don't need to be defended. And someone who has a different opinion about them doesn't need to be "gone after".
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL One more second round of the thoughts, on a general note. So many people are more and more hung up on our models being "correct" and are quick to criticize models that are generic, or freelanced, selectively compressed, or simply close stand ins. Yet many of the those same people will overlook cars/locomotives grossly coupled with large gaps between them as they squeek around way too sharp a curve, kinda like a piece of LIONEL. To my eyes, all that accurate model beauty is LOST as soon as you do that. You may as well tie them together with strings and run them around 18" radius at that point. Am I a radius snob? - you bet. It is what makes the WHOLE SCENE look realistic. So to my eyes, even though they are not specific models of actual passenger cars, my close coupled 72' cars with touching working diaphragms, pulled by my Proto E units and PA's, also close coupled with touching diaphragms, are realisticly graceful as they weave thru my 36" radius and larger curves. The issue of close coupling and working diaphragms is an issue with not only BLI but also Bachmann and Proto 2000, at least out of the box. It takes time, effort and money to accomplish close coupling and working diaphragms. The same is true for passenger cars. Walthers is probably the manufacturer who has produced more 85' passenger cars than any other passenger car manufacturer. Other threads on this forum have pointed out the necessity of "fine tuning" these cars, not only couplers and diaphragms but also trucks and wheelsets. You do have a decided advantage with 36" radius curves. Most modelers do not have that luxury of space. I come close with 32" radius curves, but I still cannot accomplish the objectives of close coupling and working diaphragms out of the box, be it locomotives or passenger cars. Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL One more second round of the thoughts, on a general note. So many people are more and more hung up on our models being "correct" and are quick to criticize models that are generic, or freelanced, selectively compressed, or simply close stand ins. Yet many of the those same people will overlook cars/locomotives grossly coupled with large gaps between them as they squeek around way too sharp a curve, kinda like a piece of LIONEL. To my eyes, all that accurate model beauty is LOST as soon as you do that. You may as well tie them together with strings and run them around 18" radius at that point. Am I a radius snob? - you bet. It is what makes the WHOLE SCENE look realistic. So to my eyes, even though they are not specific models of actual passenger cars, my close coupled 72' cars with touching working diaphragms, pulled by my Proto E units and PA's, also close coupled with touching diaphragms, are realisticly graceful as they weave thru my 36" radius and larger curves.
One more second round of the thoughts, on a general note.
So many people are more and more hung up on our models being "correct" and are quick to criticize models that are generic, or freelanced, selectively compressed, or simply close stand ins.
Yet many of the those same people will overlook cars/locomotives grossly coupled with large gaps between them as they squeek around way too sharp a curve, kinda like a piece of LIONEL.
To my eyes, all that accurate model beauty is LOST as soon as you do that.
You may as well tie them together with strings and run them around 18" radius at that point.
Am I a radius snob? - you bet.
It is what makes the WHOLE SCENE look realistic.
So to my eyes, even though they are not specific models of actual passenger cars, my close coupled 72' cars with touching working diaphragms, pulled by my Proto E units and PA's, also close coupled with touching diaphragms, are realisticly graceful as they weave thru my 36" radius and larger curves.
The issue of close coupling and working diaphragms is an issue with not only BLI but also Bachmann and Proto 2000, at least out of the box. It takes time, effort and money to accomplish close coupling and working diaphragms.
The same is true for passenger cars. Walthers is probably the manufacturer who has produced more 85' passenger cars than any other passenger car manufacturer. Other threads on this forum have pointed out the necessity of "fine tuning" these cars, not only couplers and diaphragms but also trucks and wheelsets.
You do have a decided advantage with 36" radius curves. Most modelers do not have that luxury of space. I come close with 32" radius curves, but I still cannot accomplish the objectives of close coupling and working diaphragms out of the box, be it locomotives or passenger cars.
Rich, agreed, but the BLI diaphragm is both lack luster and not conducive to simply moving locos closer together. On the Proto units all you need to is istall the Kadee kit, no other modifications - and they would work on your curves just fine.
Same issue with the front coupler, the Proto setup with the Kadee kit is much better and works on all but the tightest curves.
And honestly, I think the BLI model suffers just a little from the "bulky detail" syndrome we have talked about before.
Is the BLI a terrible model? No, its very nice. But for $80 in DC, or $180 with DC and sound, niether is the Bachmann model.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Well, I was making a point. The Broadway E unit is not bad, but is does fall short detail wise compared to the Proto in my opinion. Sound and DCC aside, even if Broadway offered a DC version, I would pick the Proto E unit every time. Do the Broadway diaphragms touch when they are coupled? The diaphragms on the Broadway have zero detail compared to the Proto. The front coupler is set forward - to avoid trip pin interference - but my Protos all work great with the couplers in the correct position. My C&O Protos have the correct passenger pilot coupler covers - not the Broadway, just big hole with the coupler too far out.
Well, I was making a point. The Broadway E unit is not bad, but is does fall short detail wise compared to the Proto in my opinion. Sound and DCC aside, even if Broadway offered a DC version, I would pick the Proto E unit every time.
Do the Broadway diaphragms touch when they are coupled?
The diaphragms on the Broadway have zero detail compared to the Proto.
The front coupler is set forward - to avoid trip pin interference - but my Protos all work great with the couplers in the correct position.
My C&O Protos have the correct passenger pilot coupler covers - not the Broadway, just big hole with the coupler too far out.
I don't see where Proto E-units are any more detailed than BLI E-units. I came across a 2017 critique this morning where a modeler darn near rebuilt his Proto E-units to achieve more realism and detail.
Yes, the BLI diaphragms do touch out of the box.
That opening in the front of the BLI E-unit doesn't seem very big to me, no more so than photos of the actual prototype. And, there is a spare part in every BLI E-unit box to completely cover the opening and forego the coupler which is unnecessary anyhow except for back-to-back consisting.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Bet you would pay more than $180 for a Broadway E unit if you bought a new one today? As I said, I don't want a Bachmann E7, it is not up to my detail standards. But lack of detail is a price point issue, not a "quality" issue. The Broadway model also fails my detail standards for the reasons listed above.
Bet you would pay more than $180 for a Broadway E unit if you bought a new one today?
As I said, I don't want a Bachmann E7, it is not up to my detail standards. But lack of detail is a price point issue, not a "quality" issue.
The Broadway model also fails my detail standards for the reasons listed above.
Again speaking to the idea that different "details" matter, or don't matter, to different people.
I'm interested in building a working, operating model railroad that gives some sort of big picture realism to the moving train as a whole, not in just accumulating accurate individual "display" models of railroad equipment.
But we all have different goals and interests. And the details I consider important likely matter not to others, and vice versa.
So, for many people, the Bachmann E7 is likely just fine, and for someone not spending $1200 on a single passenger train, a good value for their money.
Others will feel differently, myself included. While I have lots of Bachmann products, not one "mainline" diesel they have offered is up to my detail standards.
I do have Bachmann GE 44 and 70 Tonners, and a fleet of their doodlebugs. The rest of my Bachmann stuff is steam, mostly older Spectrum from the peak of Spectrum depth and detail.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL You can buy all the sound and value Bachmann E7's you want for $180 each. And you can buy the DC version for $80 and put in whatever decoder you like. I have lots of Bachmann locos - but no mainline road diesels, because like you I want a little more detail. Unlike you I have no interest in decoders or sound. My E unit of choice is the old Proto 2000 units, I have six of them, I don't need any more. I'll tell you what E unit I would never buy, the over priced crappy, bulky oversized detail Broadway models with front couplers that stick out too far, oversized couple holes in the pilot, no other pilot details and crappy diaphragms. Ouch! Dunno, Sheldon, that is a pretty harsh assessment of BLI E-units. I have 7 of them. Good looking, great runners, competitively priced. The Proto 2000 E-units are pretty nice as well, and I have four of those units. I would call it a tie. Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL You can buy all the sound and value Bachmann E7's you want for $180 each. And you can buy the DC version for $80 and put in whatever decoder you like. I have lots of Bachmann locos - but no mainline road diesels, because like you I want a little more detail. Unlike you I have no interest in decoders or sound. My E unit of choice is the old Proto 2000 units, I have six of them, I don't need any more. I'll tell you what E unit I would never buy, the over priced crappy, bulky oversized detail Broadway models with front couplers that stick out too far, oversized couple holes in the pilot, no other pilot details and crappy diaphragms.
You can buy all the sound and value Bachmann E7's you want for $180 each. And you can buy the DC version for $80 and put in whatever decoder you like.
I have lots of Bachmann locos - but no mainline road diesels, because like you I want a little more detail. Unlike you I have no interest in decoders or sound.
My E unit of choice is the old Proto 2000 units, I have six of them, I don't need any more.
Ouch!
Dunno, Sheldon, that is a pretty harsh assessment of BLI E-units. I have 7 of them. Good looking, great runners, competitively priced. The Proto 2000 E-units are pretty nice as well, and I have four of those units. I would call it a tie.
C&O never owned E8B units, they ran back to back A units. When my Proto C&O E units are coupled to my passenger cars, the diaphragm of the passenger car actually rides on the buffer plate of the loco pilot just like the real thing does.
Yes, I admit, I am fussy about diaphragms and close coupling - it is a detail that I feel adds a lot, or detracts a lot if it is not close to correct. These are passenger locomotives.
Discloure - yes my Proto E units have been reworked with the Kadee close coupling kit, but if I bought the Broadway is there any such conversion? Will the stiff, clipped into the body diaphragms work close coupled? I think not. We have had this conversation about expensive passenger cars that don't touch.
I change everything to real Kadee couplers so I would change the Broadway, but again, is there a close coupling option that works?
So once again it is OK for Broadway to have shortcomings, but the bargain priced Bachmann loco is expected to be perfect?
Different things are important to different people, or not important to some people.