That is still true of most others. They want you to be a legitimate brick and mortar store.
You have to prove that you are a legitimate store or warehouse complete with tax number for your state in order to do business with most of the current importers or wholesale distributors. The basement sellers who sometimes were not legitimate dealers are on the way out.
In the past there have been those individuals who desired to buy a large quantity of trains for their personal use, and have tried to become "dealers"...Another trick: a friend of mine was a used car salesman (now dead and gone). He routinely used his business tax number to buy trains as if he was a train dealer. This was 20 years ago; he got away with it often, especially at Timonium.
A trick used to be: take a picture of somebody else's hobby shop and submit it. Today there are less of them, and the importers actually check specifically for this trick.
To be clear: I'm not condoning these kinds of tricks; sometimes you don't really know your friends that you meet in this hobby, at least till later when they surprise you by doing things you would not.
Bachmann is an abornality, they benifit from what others charge and ussually go a bit lower. Their wholesale price has ussually been lower to large buyers. Looked into buying direct once, back then min order was $10,000 and discount was 50% of list. Larger buyers got a bigger discount. They also didn't care about who you were unlike others who would only sell to people with a brick and mortar presence, I wonder if that is still true of the others?
Antonio FP45--
I worked in the model train industry. I still have friends working for one importer.
They have very clearly told me that the percentage of full dcc/sound units pre-ordered is increasing with each and every run of locomotives.
That is a fact and not conjecture, and just so we are clear, they were at 55% full dcc/sound a couple years ago now. I do not know the current percentage, but it's undoubtedly above 55%. The current percentage is a closely guarded secret and will vary from manufacturer to manufacturer.
Rapido, for one, only builds plain dc units to pre-order, and I think a dealer has to order 6 of them, or rather multiples of 6.
John
Lastspikemike Free market transactions are the very definition of symbiotic. That's the only way wealth can be created in excess of labour input. Nobody is coerced into parting with cash (stored labour value) in exchange for a locomotive model. Price is determined by willingness to part with cash. That part is outside the control of the manufacturer and the retailer, apart from marketing. For addictive hobbies like ours the marketing strategy can be pretty over the edge (Rapido springs to mind for some reason) but the major part of the market is very knowledgeable (or is sure they are even if not, ask me how I know) "Build them and they will buy" is not generally a good business model.
Free market transactions are the very definition of symbiotic.
That's the only way wealth can be created in excess of labour input.
Nobody is coerced into parting with cash (stored labour value) in exchange for a locomotive model.
Price is determined by willingness to part with cash. That part is outside the control of the manufacturer and the retailer, apart from marketing. For addictive hobbies like ours the marketing strategy can be pretty over the edge (Rapido springs to mind for some reason) but the major part of the market is very knowledgeable (or is sure they are even if not, ask me how I know)
"Build them and they will buy" is not generally a good business model.
Great points.
Yes value is only determined by willingness pay.
However, cost to produce is a factor in the equation, as expressed in your last line.
As someone who has worked in this business, and actually manufactured and sold products in other industries, I can tell you that this industry, for the most part, is working at or near the lowest practical/profitable margins.
There are always those who find a "gold mine" opportunity, or short lived periods of high margins, but overall, this industry, and the whole "hobby" industry, is a cottage industry that works on the minimum reasonable return on investment.
Given that fact, prices on newly produced product are driven more by cost to produce than by the market. The market then decides if it was a good decission to product that item, at that time, with those features, at that quality level.
And that is where the current preorder business model comes in. It gives at least some indication as to if the market will support the cost to produce.
Prices on NOS are another story..........
Sheldon
- -For addictive hobbies like ours
Are there electric train addicts? I guess so, there are addicts for all kinds of things. I doubt the addicts make up enough of a market share to make marketing decisions.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Pruitt Give them five minutes. As soon as somebody realizes what's happening, the prices will go up.
Give them five minutes. As soon as somebody realizes what's happening, the prices will go up.
AntonioFP45 Well, this thread certainly makes me a "happy camper". I read the information regarding "Moore's Law" on the web and I can see where in many consumer related scenarios, it is applicable (although it has been gradual in this hobby). PRR8529, just my "screwy" opinion, but I don't think that the model railroad manufacturers will eventually offer DCC sound only. They're fully aware that companies, such as: ESU, Soundtraxx, Zimo, TCS, and Digitrax are entrenched in the market. Wouldn't it be more realistic to say that in the future we will likely be seeing Full DCC/Sound units and DCC Ready units that include the space for a speaker(s). By producing DCC Sound Ready units, the model manufacturers and the DCC Sound manufacturers will actually be helping each other, with both, enjoying their shares of customers (I'll be one of them).
Well, this thread certainly makes me a "happy camper".
I read the information regarding "Moore's Law" on the web and I can see where in many consumer related scenarios, it is applicable (although it has been gradual in this hobby).
PRR8529, just my "screwy" opinion, but I don't think that the model railroad manufacturers will eventually offer DCC sound only. They're fully aware that companies, such as: ESU, Soundtraxx, Zimo, TCS, and Digitrax are entrenched in the market.
Wouldn't it be more realistic to say that in the future we will likely be seeing Full DCC/Sound units and DCC Ready units that include the space for a speaker(s). By producing DCC Sound Ready units, the model manufacturers and the DCC Sound manufacturers will actually be helping each other, with both, enjoying their shares of customers (I'll be one of them).
Hello Mark,
Why would that be the case?
I may be mistaken but, so far, the competition between the manufacturers has been economically healthy and seems to lean slightly in our favor.
Don't you think so?
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
Glad that Bachmann was mentioned.
I wasn't a fan of Bachmann, based on past experiences with the "toy" versions. Yet, just as with Life Like, I'm grateful that they produced models that I was very interested in.
I regretted passing up the BLI GG1's when they hit the market. When production stopped, these units were going for the $300+ range on ebay. When Bachmann produced the G's, I took a chance and purchased a DCC-Sound equpped Pennsy Brunswick Green unit with the single yellow stripe version. It was a VERY pleasant surprise seeing (and hearing) how smoothly and quietly this "brick heavy" unit ran. The onboard Soundtraxx sound is the "Econmai" (I think). I was fine with that since the prototype G's were VERY quiet at idle and low speeds. The Leslie A-200 "honker" horn sounds good and features a small amount of reverb. The short horn blast produces a nice "Yonnk!" tail-off note. Bachmann did screw up on the Keystone herald (the PRR letters should be white, not yellow), but overall I'm happy with the unit and will leave the sound system as is.
On the other other hand, I plan on gutting the DCC setup in the E60 and going for a LokSound setup, including a sugar cube speaker. The cool factor is that LokSound has an electric locomotive sound scheme that is very similar to the GE E60 (basically sounds like a giant refrigerator). Cool factor is that the unique Nathan P-0125 horn is available. I prefer the American GK version, but they are difficult to find and the "updated" Bachmann version looks decent and its appearance can be improved with some better details (functional class lights, thinner cab access ladders, more accurate pantographs). So...........I'll work with what I've got.
The New Haven EF-4 (E-33) presents a challenge since clearance underneath the hood is tight. I'll give it a go and if I find it beyond my skill level, I'll turn to a DCC-sound installer. I'll still lean towards LokSound due to the excellent motor control.
riogrande5761 Price for DCC and sound engines going down Read the title of your first post/topic title real carefully - quoted above. A reader would be lead to believe the point of the topic is quite different. Anyway, no surprise - Bachmann, a brand I've had little or no interest in. What about difference between dcc ready and dcc/sound for Genesis, Intermountain, ScaleTrains, Rapido, Atlas? That analysis I'd be more interested in. Otherwise nothing of consequence here. Moving along....
Price for DCC and sound engines going down
Read the title of your first post/topic title real carefully - quoted above. A reader would be lead to believe the point of the topic is quite different.
Anyway, no surprise - Bachmann, a brand I've had little or no interest in. What about difference between dcc ready and dcc/sound for Genesis, Intermountain, ScaleTrains, Rapido, Atlas? That analysis I'd be more interested in. Otherwise nothing of consequence here. Moving along....
Knowing what I know about your era and road, I can understand why Bachmann is a brand you don't have much interest in.
I don't have much interest in Bachmann diesels, except the GE 44 tonner and 70 tonner.
For me it is Atlas that is not on my radar. They make great locos, but over the last 20 years they have only made a limited selection of locos in my era, most of which I was able to get from elsewhere, Proto, Athearn, etc, usually for less money, often better detail, often in my desired undecorated, and generally without preordering.
Scale Trains - not one loco I want, DC, DCC or otherwise.
Genesis and Intermountain, I have lots of F units from both, but not anything else.
Rapido - well they canceled the one loco I wanted to buy from them - undecorated DC ALCO PA's. I even had my preorder in......
Most of my Diesel fleet is pre Walthers Proto2000, all without DCC.
But back to Bachmann, I have about 35 Bachmann/Spectrum steam locos and I am happy with every one. Many being prototypes never produced by anyone else (except brass), and most of the steam they have made fits the theme of my layout.
You did not mention Broadway? My warranty/service track record with Bachmann has been much better than with Broadway..........
Say what you want about Bachmann, their pioneering efforts with the Spectrum Line are a big part of the reason you have all these great products today.
And for those of us who model steam, especially eastern or midwestern roads, the selection they have offered in the last 20 years has been invaluable.
They have made the "ordinary" locos modelers need for realistic rosters, not just a few "big, famous" locos.
As for the OP's observation, yes the gap between DCC ready and DCC with sound seems to be shrinking a little. With decoders or without decoders, if the price is right I buy either. I have removed my share of decoders.....
Not so simple there; some engines are not easily disassembled at all and if you attempt it there is a reasonable probability of damaging the model.
Also, I have seen some large variations on the price of plain dc versus dcc and sound equipped engines. There are still plenty of engines out there where the price difference is closer to $100 than $60. It appears the OP was fortunate to receive a good deal on the price.
It also depends upon what the roadnames are. The scarcer roadnames tend to sell closer to MRSP and then the price difference is higher.
It is true that less and less plain dc models are being produced by the importers, and I think it won't be that long before more manufacturers offer full dcc/sound only. When that happens will be a sad day for some of us.
I have BLI and MTH also. Guess it depends on what you run. What brought this on is an Athean Genesis Sd70ACU, DCC ready is $212.99 and DCC and sound is $268.99.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
riogrande5761 What engine was that with sound for $60. The Athearn, Rapido, ScaleTrains, Atlas and Intermountain are nothing near that cheap. I'm not seeing that downward trend. If anything the cost is creeping up with time.
What engine was that with sound for $60. The Athearn, Rapido, ScaleTrains, Atlas and Intermountain are nothing near that cheap. I'm not seeing that downward trend. If anything the cost is creeping up with time.
Moore's law could explain part of the trend, the theory that the power of electronics rises, the size gets smaller and the cost of electronics gets exponentially cheaper over the years. Recently Moore's law has begun to slow down for computers with graphics being hit the most dramatically by it (most obvious in real time rendering situations like video games were graphic cards evolution has begun to hit a ceiling where its struggling to advance as rapidly, hence why the differences between say a Xbox One/Xbox Series X|S or PS4/PS5 are not as big as previous generational advances in graphics, while high end PC gaming has begun a new focus on frame rate speed instead of sheer graphics power).However if we consider model railroading as a more niche market than say video game graphics cards, its likely there was a delay in catching up the computer tech of DCC to the current power and cost capabilities of modern computers. So as the tech improves and model railroading catches up, the DCC tech enjoys the delayed benefits of Moore's law, improved power and lower costs. If it follows Moore's law starting to hit a ceiling eventually the cost benefit will stop, but by that point it will be likely a DCC installation will be really cheap. Then the only market indicator will be demand, will a company pay $70 for DCC when the computer chip to install it was $5 to purchase? Or will consumer prices drop to match manufacturing cost as more model railroaders choose DCC as their standard and DC loses its customer base? There is obviously a break even analysis equation dictating the market that we the consumer are not privy to. Only time will tell if price drops continue.
Yeah, I hear you but DCC sound has been out for a long time, maybe the dual decoders are accually starting to work on the higher end models, I know they done on the low end stuff (tried it just to see if it worked).
I thnk that trend will continue. I am sort of reminded that when stereo records (LPs) were new the stereo LP cost $1 or more over the price of the monaural version. And sometimes the stereo version had less music. Maybe they cost more to make but I doubt it
But it did not take long for the price to even out, and then the parallel monaural versions became hard and eventually impossible to find.
Dave Nelson
Just got email and street prive for DCC and sound vs DCC ready is less than $60.