Ed,
So cool seeing your Penn Central "Brick"! I saw them in action a a kid (yes I'm dating myself) in NYC. I'm aware that when we think back to our childhood memories, they tend to become a bit skewed, but I remember the Bricks to be rather quiet as they cruised along Bruckner Blvd in the Bronx hauling long strings of mxed freight heading to Queens / Long Island. But of course, there was plenty of street traffic to "fog out' the sounds of those muscle-bound motors.
I plan on installing sound on my Bachmann unit. However, I wonder what horn they used? I heard the Hancock "Whooooo!" from the Jets and FL9's, but zero from the New Haven "Bricks".
I have to admit that as much as I've criticized Bachmann over the years, I give them a "High 5" for doing a decent job on the GG1 and for even producing the E-33 / EF-4 model.
gmpullman Autonerd I'm with you -- really happy with the Bachmanns I own. My pair of former Virginian EL-C > New Haven EF-4s will have to be stand-ins for a PRR E44 until those may, or may not, come along. IMG_5577_fix by Edmund, on Flickr I don't need a sound decoder for these things, they growl just like the real ones Regards, Ed
Autonerd I'm with you -- really happy with the Bachmanns I own.
My pair of former Virginian EL-C > New Haven EF-4s will have to be stand-ins for a PRR E44 until those may, or may not, come along.
IMG_5577_fix by Edmund, on Flickr
I don't need a sound decoder for these things, they growl just like the real ones
Regards, Ed
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
Autonerd AntonioFP45 Glad that Bachmann was mentioned. I'm with you -- really happy with the Bachmanns I own. I got an FA-FB-FB-FA set, 3 with sound and one silent, for less than the cost of a single Genesis unit. They badly need speed matching and they dont' pull individually, but four of them? No problem! Also very happy with my GG1, my E60 (bummer there's no sound version), and I have an F7 that just needs numbers. The detail isn't great but from 30 feet away you can't tell. But you sure can hear them! One of these days I'll get an S4 -- the sound is great in those, and all that stops me is that a single-unit switcher can't do the job at my club. When they say "sound value" they aren't kidding! Aaron
AntonioFP45 Glad that Bachmann was mentioned.
I'm with you -- really happy with the Bachmanns I own. I got an FA-FB-FB-FA set, 3 with sound and one silent, for less than the cost of a single Genesis unit. They badly need speed matching and they dont' pull individually, but four of them? No problem! Also very happy with my GG1, my E60 (bummer there's no sound version), and I have an F7 that just needs numbers. The detail isn't great but from 30 feet away you can't tell. But you sure can hear them!
One of these days I'll get an S4 -- the sound is great in those, and all that stops me is that a single-unit switcher can't do the job at my club.
When they say "sound value" they aren't kidding!
Aaron
AutonerdI'm with you -- really happy with the Bachmanns I own.
I wouldn't give up my pair of B&O EM-1s without a struggle
EM1_7600 by Edmund, on Flickr
Excellent detail and running quality at this price point. I doubt there will be another manufacturer coming along with a better one anytime soon.
Trainman440WOW I thought it was worth around $500 not $1000+ DAMN! Guess I struck gold...
Congrats! Great engine -- one of the few that can pull like the real thing. A friend has one and it can easily pull 15 car trains up our club's 2.5% grades. We don't have a 1938 Century so we model it in "secondary service" pulling old heavyweights and dairy/express trains. I bought a BLI plastic Hudson w/o traction tires and it won't pull nearly as well.
AntonioFP45Glad that Bachmann was mentioned.
gmpullman BLI_4-6-4 by Edmund, on Flickr — and this one is "DCC Ready" ! Cheers, Ed
BLI_4-6-4 by Edmund, on Flickr
— and this one is "DCC Ready" !
Cheers, Ed
WOW I thought it was worth around $500 not $1000+ DAMN! Guess I struck gold...
Charles
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Modeling the PRR & NYC in HO
Youtube Channel: www.youtube.com/@trainman440
Instagram (where I share projects!): https://www.instagram.com/trainman440
Trainman440I did ended up keeping a new BLI Brass hybrid Dreyfuss I got for only $150.
Ya' done good, Trainman!
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I had never even heard of Lombards, so I looked them up. I could not even find anything I would want to buy. Not very much depth of inventory posted on the web site. Of course I live here in the east, and have three of the biggest mail order train suppliers in the country so close it is often just two day shipping, at least pre pandemic. All three with great prices....... Sheldon
I had never even heard of Lombards, so I looked them up. I could not even find anything I would want to buy. Not very much depth of inventory posted on the web site.
Of course I live here in the east, and have three of the biggest mail order train suppliers in the country so close it is often just two day shipping, at least pre pandemic. All three with great prices.......
Sheldon
As an east coast guy who was blessed with MB Clein and trainworld, and who goes to college in illinois and had the opportunity to check out lombard in person, I gotta say, they got more stuff than their website would make you suspect.
Although I generally dont agree with their prices.
They did have a huge inventory sale last year, I think they bought an entire rare collection and was trying to get rid of it within two days. EVERYTHING was atleast marked 50% off market value. I ended up spending $1000 on items, most I was planning to sell to make some profit. They had things like an Athearn Bigboy for $175, MTH steam engines for $200, etc.
I did ended up keeping a new BLI Brass hybrid Dreyfuss I got for only $150.
That first impression gave me a positive impression for Lombard. Although they dont beat MB clein in their online store, their in person store is one of the better if not best in the midwest.
Anyways, I digress.
I have no dog in this fight since I doubt I will be buying too many more locos, especially new releases. And DCC or DC, if the price is right I will buy DCC and remove the decoder.
I have actually spent the last couple days evaluating the roster and the new track plan to see if any additional motive power is desired or needed.
As it stands the desired operational plan is pretty well covered and the engine terminal will still be full of backups and power changes.
A couple more Pacifics and Mikados are tempting, specificly in B&O and ATLANTIC CENTRAL, but they are not necessary.
Who knows, Christmas is coming......
riogrande5761 ATLANTIC CENTRAL Agreed it is only anecdotal without more research, but, using your numbers: Right but my numbers are no more reliable than those first given. A single data point in a world where street prices vary and number vary over time. No real points can be made with only a few data points. The only way to prove a trend is to collect a lot more data over multiple brands over time. Wake me up if that ever happens.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Agreed it is only anecdotal without more research, but, using your numbers:
Agreed it is only anecdotal without more research, but, using your numbers:
Right but my numbers are no more reliable than those first given. A single data point in a world where street prices vary and number vary over time.
No real points can be made with only a few data points. The only way to prove a trend is to collect a lot more data over multiple brands over time. Wake me up if that ever happens.
Its going to be a long sleep, Mr. Van Winkle.
Nobody disputes that real data is better than anecdotal evidence.
In the world of retail shopping, feel has a lot to do with it. The feel of how the mean line is trending amongst all of those data points gathered over time.
Put it this way, Lombard's is offering nondiscounted/non clearence on several new run ATHG loco models with a Tsunami2 and speaker installed for $60. Use what ever price point or inflation rate you want, and I doubt that at anytime in the past 15 years could you have gotten those features for that low of a spread over DCC Ready, on a percentage basis. That's just how it feels to me.
It could just be temporary, maybe covid related.
- Douglas
Right but my numbers are no more reliable than those first given. A single data point in a world where street prices vary and numbers vary over time.
rrebell Ok, when did this happen Lobards did not used to have the best prices, they are now super compeditive.
Ok, when did this happen Lobards did not used to have the best prices, they are now super compeditive.
Lombards has had super competitive prices that I've noticed for years now. They often do deep discounts on Tangent rolling stock that has been out for quite a while for example. Most other products have been a bit cheaper than say MBK for years. Lately I've noticed Athearn engines a good deal cheaper than MBK.
As for Lombards pricing in general, this is my read on it. They have a "standard shipping price" of $13.95 per order whether you buy a package of rail joiners or several high dollar engines. I conjecture that, on the average, shipping and handling more than covers those costs and then some. That being the case, Lombards offers lower prices than most vendors and balances it out somewhat by the higher shipping that they probably make a profit on in the over all wash. In some cases, the cost of a couple of engines is cheap enough that it more than offsets the higher shipping cost. It depends.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
ATLANTIC CENTRAL riogrande5761 So was the generalization at the start of this topic found true across the board (as implied in the topic title) or just Bachman? Has anyone noticed a trend for the higher shelf lines like Atlas, Athearn Genesis, Rapido and Intermountain etc? Well, I did not do a detailed study, but a quick check of Athearn Genesis retail prices suggested that the price gap between DCC w/sound and DCC ready is shrinking. Prices have crept up, Genesis F units are now $600 for an A/B set with DCC/sound, $420 DCC ready. But when prices were lower, that gap was still in the $180-$200 range for A/B sets. I seem to remember prices like $500 for DCC w/sound and $300 for DCC ready? So as a percentage the gap has shrunk a few points. I suspect that as DCC w/sound production volume is increasing, the cost of decoders is decreasing, and those prices are not going up as fast as DCC ready versions. Sheldon
riogrande5761 So was the generalization at the start of this topic found true across the board (as implied in the topic title) or just Bachman? Has anyone noticed a trend for the higher shelf lines like Atlas, Athearn Genesis, Rapido and Intermountain etc?
So was the generalization at the start of this topic found true across the board (as implied in the topic title) or just Bachman? Has anyone noticed a trend for the higher shelf lines like Atlas, Athearn Genesis, Rapido and Intermountain etc?
Well, I did not do a detailed study, but a quick check of Athearn Genesis retail prices suggested that the price gap between DCC w/sound and DCC ready is shrinking.
Prices have crept up, Genesis F units are now $600 for an A/B set with DCC/sound, $420 DCC ready.
But when prices were lower, that gap was still in the $180-$200 range for A/B sets. I seem to remember prices like $500 for DCC w/sound and $300 for DCC ready?
So as a percentage the gap has shrunk a few points.
I suspect that as DCC w/sound production volume is increasing, the cost of decoders is decreasing, and those prices are not going up as fast as DCC ready versions.
- -This weird pricing pattern is also applied to big ticket items like houses listed for $399,900.00
Much of the reason for pricing houses like that has to do with the way Mortgages are approved. Thresholds start at whole round numbers like $400,00.00, so if you were to add $100.00 to that house price several potential buyers would be eliminated from the possible pool of purchasers.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
riogrande5761 Doughless I've purchased a lot this year and the price difference between Sound and Ready is about $80 for most single locos. (Athearn and Atlas) IIRC, it used to be about $100. It seems the gap is shrinking because the Ready versions appear to be increasing in price faster than the Sound versions by a bit. Speculation can explain the reason for that. From memory back in 2009 I recall buying both DCC ready and DCC/Sound Atlas GP40's (because they all had different road numbers). The street price I recall paying was $90 for the DCC ready and $150 for the DCC/Sound equipped. So that was about $60 difference street price 11 years ago. Back then there were a couple of reasons I mostly avoided DCC/Sound loco's: 1) there was a lot of complaints about the quality of the sound from the MRC and QSI decoders being factory installed, and 2) I had less disposable income and didn't want to waste it on sound that was often panned by hobbyists. Even the vaunted Tsunami 1, with its better engine sound still got panned for motor control. So not being interested 10 or 11 years ago in sound, I didn't follow the price differnces as closely. Never-the-less, that is my anecdotal example. Based on that it seems the difference has held fairly steady. But ... I argue that there will need to be a MUCH more extensive price analysis to make a solid assertion that the difference between DCC ready and DCC/Sound loco's has shrunk over the last say 10 years. Until that happens, I remain sceptical based on anecdotal evidence only. It is statistically insignificant. Shens.
Doughless I've purchased a lot this year and the price difference between Sound and Ready is about $80 for most single locos. (Athearn and Atlas) IIRC, it used to be about $100. It seems the gap is shrinking because the Ready versions appear to be increasing in price faster than the Sound versions by a bit. Speculation can explain the reason for that.
From memory back in 2009 I recall buying both DCC ready and DCC/Sound Atlas GP40's (because they all had different road numbers). The street price I recall paying was $90 for the DCC ready and $150 for the DCC/Sound equipped. So that was about $60 difference street price 11 years ago.
Back then there were a couple of reasons I mostly avoided DCC/Sound loco's: 1) there was a lot of complaints about the quality of the sound from the MRC and QSI decoders being factory installed, and 2) I had less disposable income and didn't want to waste it on sound that was often panned by hobbyists. Even the vaunted Tsunami 1, with its better engine sound still got panned for motor control.
So not being interested 10 or 11 years ago in sound, I didn't follow the price differnces as closely. Never-the-less, that is my anecdotal example. Based on that it seems the difference has held fairly steady. But ...
I argue that there will need to be a MUCH more extensive price analysis to make a solid assertion that the difference between DCC ready and DCC/Sound loco's has shrunk over the last say 10 years. Until that happens, I remain sceptical based on anecdotal evidence only. It is statistically insignificant. Shens.
A DCC ready loco was 60% of the cost of DCC w/sound - $90/$150 = .60 or 60%
The new DCC ready Genesis AB F unit sets I used in my example are 70% of the price of the DCC w/sound versions.
$420/$600 = .70 or 70%
If the percentage was the same as your example, those new Genesis DCC ready F units would only be $360. $600 x .60 = $360
As I indicated earlier, the gap appears to be shrinking as a percentage as the prices are rising.
Dollar amount differences mean nothing here as inflation effects value.
Sure. I agree with most of what you wrote. Good luck getting anybody to care about the subject enough to do an objective study of data. Its always going to be a matter of opinion for the most part.
As you say, different retailers discount different items in different ways, so what someone actually pays at any point can change within six months or so.
There are differences based upon the model loco too. Right now, Lombards shows the new run ATHG GP38-2s with a $83 difference, but the GP40-2 released just a few months ago has only a $60 difference. (indicating the difference is actually going up). But then the even newer run GP39-2 has the same $60 difference as the older GP40-2.
Timing and fluctuations matter, and when you look when shopping matters too.
But generally, if a $80 difference existed 10 years ago, that is a greater disparity than an $80 difference today due to inflation and percentage price increase. And the less expensive version is the one thats increasing its price at a greater percentage.
To me, that says that the basic costs of building any loco (probably the labor component) is increasing faster than the costs of the improvements in the electronics.
Its a matter of a feeling and opinion that I agree with, based upon my anecdotal experiences. I doubt anything emperical would be compiled.
Yes. Answering Jim's question above, I've purchased a lot this year and the price difference between Sound and Ready is about $80 for most single locos. (Athearn and Atlas) IIRC, it used to be about $100.
It seems the gap is shrinking because the Ready versions appear to be increasing in price faster than the Sound versions by a bit.
Speculation can explain the reason for that.
PRR8259 It IS true that today's dual mode decoders are way way better than the ones from the past when running the engine in plain dc.
It IS true that today's dual mode decoders are way way better than the ones from the past when running the engine in plain dc.
Yes, assuming you are using a DC throttle the decoder likes. One with relatively pure DC, extra no load voltage, and no PWM speed control.
My Aristo Train Engineer wireless throttles running at only 13.8 volts, not so much.
riogrande5761It might have thought you were trying to post too quickly after one already - like a double bounce on the submit button.
"Forbidden" is an indication that the stored login is no longer recognized. Likely when you go to the 'sign in' prompt to enter credentials it clears the page you were on "to give you a personalized browsing experience" or whatever -- of course with no text in a reply window.
It has gotten to the point I can't post more than a paragraph or two on a phone before the page shudders like a wet dog or blacks out for a moment and blanks everything I've typed. If you wonder why every time you come back, one of my posts is getting longer and longer, that's the workaround: type fast on that clumsy keyboard, hit 'submit' ASAP, and then keep adding with the edit feature...
It might have thought you were trying to post too quickly after one already - like a double bounce on the submit button. It's happened to me a few times. Sucks when you have a long reply and lose it.
Just happened to me with this post, but I was able to hit the back button and what I typed was still there.
Weird, tried to post reply and got forbidden notice. Worked this time but my long imput post is gone.
The first VCRs in the late seventies cost $4-500 and could only record for one hour, so to tape a two hour movie you had to use two blank tapes. By the early 1990's you could buy a VCR (with a DVD player built in) that could record up to six hours for $149.
Re Bachmann, I bought a GN GP-30 back in 1988 for IIRC $32.50 at the LHS. It runs well, but is a bit of a "growler", and because of it's split-frame arrangement (similar to many N scale engines) there isn't much room for a speaker for a sound decoder. I found TrainWorld had a sale on sound-equipped (Economi) GP-30s so I bought one and swapped out the bodies. Basically I got a new, better running motor, a good sound decoder, and 1" speaker in it's own enclosure, for under $100. The engine now should be good for another 30 years.
Bear in mind that some retailers might be running a 'loss leader' promotion at certain times, or on certain slower-moving roadnames, or for older decoder types or models, which produces the effect of smaller differential between DCC-sound and "DCC ready" or straight DC.
I suspect we will see phenomenal price drops on 8-bit sound or 'nonprogrammable sound' if the technology improves in some of the ways that I see occurring. If TCS in fact works out how to do programming from open sound files using nonproprietary equipment, and then proceeds to support settable dynamic range for different effects, it may be 'game-changing' for many people for whom sound is now mostly a toy-train feature... leaving many of the older decoders obsolescent at best.
PRR8259 That is still true of most others. They want you to be a legitimate brick and mortar store. You have to prove that you are a legitimate store or warehouse complete with tax number for your state in order to do business with most of the current importers or wholesale distributors. The basement sellers who sometimes were not legitimate dealers are on the way out. In the past there have been those individuals who desired to buy a large quantity of trains for their personal use, and have tried to become "dealers"...Another trick: a friend of mine was a used car salesman (now dead and gone). He routinely used his business tax number to buy trains as if he was a train dealer. This was 20 years ago; he got away with it often, especially at Timonium. A trick used to be: take a picture of somebody else's hobby shop and submit it. Today there are less of them, and the importers actually check specifically for this trick. To be clear: I'm not condoning these kinds of tricks; sometimes you don't really know your friends that you meet in this hobby, at least till later when they surprise you by doing things you would not.
That is still true of most others. They want you to be a legitimate brick and mortar store.
You have to prove that you are a legitimate store or warehouse complete with tax number for your state in order to do business with most of the current importers or wholesale distributors. The basement sellers who sometimes were not legitimate dealers are on the way out.
In the past there have been those individuals who desired to buy a large quantity of trains for their personal use, and have tried to become "dealers"...Another trick: a friend of mine was a used car salesman (now dead and gone). He routinely used his business tax number to buy trains as if he was a train dealer. This was 20 years ago; he got away with it often, especially at Timonium.
A trick used to be: take a picture of somebody else's hobby shop and submit it. Today there are less of them, and the importers actually check specifically for this trick.
To be clear: I'm not condoning these kinds of tricks; sometimes you don't really know your friends that you meet in this hobby, at least till later when they surprise you by doing things you would not.
Manufacturers and distributors have to walk a fine line between protecting their retailers and restraint of trade. The federal courts take a dim view of restraint of trade.
If I have a retail sales tax number, and a business address, and money in the bank, a potential seller of a product I want to buy for resale needs to be careful not to put restrictions or requirements on me that he does not apply to his existing customers.
I am not condoning some of the practices of years past, not those of basement "retailers" or manufacturers who looked the other way to make a few more bulk sales.
But that is not the situation with Bachmann.
As for the percentage of locos now being made DCC with sound, I suspect it matches or exceeds the percentage of DCC useage, which I put at about 60%-65% in HO and N scales.
I expect it to continue to grow, steadily but slowly. Almost everyone who is established in the hobby, and who started in DC, and who is going to convert to DCC, has done so.
So now it is new people and attrition.
Manufacturers will make their own choices, based on their markets and their volumes, as to the viablity of continuing to offer DCC ready locos.
Personally, as a DC non sound user, I would simply like to see DCC/sound locos with easy backwards compatiblilty. That is removeable decoders and jumper plugs included.
Dual mode decoders are not compatible with my particular DC control system. I have no interest in sound or the compromised throttle range of dual mode decoder DC performance.
So I will continue to buy DC locos when possible and remove decoders when necessary.
rrebell Bachmann is an abornality, they benifit from what others charge and ussually go a bit lower. Their wholesale price has ussually been lower to large buyers. Looked into buying direct once, back then min order was $10,000 and discount was 50% of list. Larger buyers got a bigger discount. They also didn't care about who you were unlike others who would only sell to people with a brick and mortar presence, I wonder if that is still true of the others?
Bachmann is an abornality, they benifit from what others charge and ussually go a bit lower. Their wholesale price has ussually been lower to large buyers. Looked into buying direct once, back then min order was $10,000 and discount was 50% of list. Larger buyers got a bigger discount. They also didn't care about who you were unlike others who would only sell to people with a brick and mortar presence, I wonder if that is still true of the others?
Bachmann is part of Kader, so they are one of the few brands that actually are the same company as the factory. And at this point likely the only large company where the factory and the marketing company are the same company.
This means at least some greater economy of scale than even Walthers, Atlas or Athearn have.
And surely a much lower total production cost than middle tier companies like Bowser, Broadway, Intermountain, and others.
MTH is closing or changing ownership, their market share in HO is questionable at best anyway.
Rapido has, as I understand it, invested in their own factory in China, but they are relatively small compared to Bachmann, Athearn, Walthers, Atlas, etc.
Bachmann also chooses to offer products at multiple "levels" of the hobby, a situation that many modelers have trouble understanding. And a situation others use to bash the company despite the constantly improving quality and value they have produced in the last 20 years.
So yes, Bachmann has a distinct advantage price wise, and generally they have shared that with the dealers who are able to buy volume.
Bachmann also has the resources to make the trains first, then sell them. They don't have worry about "paying the factory" on delivery, they are the factory.
Requiring a retail location is pretty unrealistic these days of internet commerce. A business license and money should be the only requirement. Otherwise how do new businesses start?
Does everything Bachmann make meet my needs or standards? No. But I am smart enough to understand they make, or have made, entry level products, mid tier products, and high end products like my B&O EM1, and most of my other Spectrum steam locos.
Do I have anything bad to say about them? No. In fact all my experiances have been good. There have been a few product problems, with a few of the 50-60 Bachmann products I own. They took care of every problem to my complete satisfaction.
I can't say that about Broadway.
But I can say my customer service experiances with Intermountain, Athearn, Bowser, Walthers and others have all also been excellent.