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Nit picky

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Nit picky
Posted by whitroth on Saturday, August 8, 2020 5:05 PM

Looking through the current issue, in the article on the cutters - being from Philly, that's a fabulous row of houses, though most of Philly has three story row houses, not two.

 

EXCEPT... the front steps are wrong. Follow me here: you walk up the steps, knock on the door, and someone opens the door.

 

And it smashes into your shins.

 

All front steps have a landing at the top, wide enough that you can stand on without being hit by the foor....

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Posted by gmpullman on Monday, August 10, 2020 9:52 AM

Hello, and —  Welcome

I can relate to what you are saying and the only thing I can offer is that nearly everything designed and used in our model world has been subjected to "selective compression" out of necessity.

Most layout builders have to settle on a degree of reduction and substitution. Anyone who has tried to fit a steel mill or other large industry on an average layout has felt the effects.

Good luck, Ed

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Posted by dknelson on Monday, August 10, 2020 11:19 AM

I think that is a fair nit to pick.  About the door in particular (eliminating floors as Ed says is a time honored form of selective compression so long as the general idea of the structure is communicated, which it is).

What's missing is what I'd call a "landing" and again selective compression would allow one to be small, maybe impossibly or laughably small, but there should be something.  

Dave Nelson

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Posted by BATMAN on Monday, August 10, 2020 11:29 AM

For me, less is more. I would rather have properly scaled items on the layout and if it means having fewer other things on the layout so be it. Even then I need to make tough decisions like all modelers do.

Another thing that is not for me is having things that end at the edge of the world like bridges and rivers. This is not meant to be a criticism, it is a choice. Things that end at the edge of the world instantly catch my eye and take away from the other details a layout may have to offer. Others may not think twice about it.

Brent

"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, August 10, 2020 11:37 AM

whitroth
All front steps have a landing at the top, wide enough that you can stand on without being hit by the door....

This has to be a Pennsylvania fire law thing, like the deadbolts that retract the second time you work the lever from the inside, like BMW doors... what a bright idea for priority egress... or priority ingress, after you break the sidelight, and reach around...

I have never lived in a house where the inside door, the main door, didn't hinge to the inside.  Storm doors, screen doors: those hinge out, but if you are caught by one of those it's not like there was no warning.  Heaven knows that's not the case with many row homes, though!  I musta had a sheltered upbringing...

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Posted by dehusman on Monday, August 10, 2020 11:50 AM

You sure about that?

I just checked a couple spots around Phillie and the second place I picked at random, 2335 S Chadwick St., were all 2 story row homes  with no "landing" at the top step (except where the owner modified it).  Third place I checked, 407 Daly St, same thing, 2 stories, no landing.  I then went up to Pt Richmond, 3041 Almond St and same thing, 2 stories, no landing.  Zoomed up to Manyunk, hit one spot that had 3 stories and landings, but the next spot, 4520 Smick St, 2 storeis and no landing.

I would say that in the older parts of Phillie with narrow streets, 2 stories and no landing is quite common.

Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Monday, August 10, 2020 12:13 PM

Overmod
I have never lived in a house where the inside door, the main door, didn't hinge to the inside.

Down here we only have one front door, not an inside and outside door.

As far as I have seen, nearly all "Category 5" doors hinge to the outside. Older doors hinged to the inside.

My new front door (cat-5) opens outward. That change took a little while to get used to.

-Kevin

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Posted by gmpullman on Monday, August 10, 2020 12:41 PM

dehusman
I would say that in the older parts of Phillie with narrow streets, 2 stories and no landing is quite common.

 Philly_1 by Edmund, on Flickr

Lawn care is a breeze. Parking — not so much.

whitroth
All front steps have a landing at the top, wide enough that you can stand on without being hit by the foor....

Another popular model RRer's saying — There's a prototype for everything.

Cheers, Ed

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Posted by hornblower on Monday, August 10, 2020 2:58 PM

Speaking of the Craft Cutter article, I was very disappointed to read that the stupid things still won't cut all the way through .020" styrene.  While I certainly liked what the author did to make fine details pieces such as trusses and car doors, I prefer to make my structures from .040" styrene for strength and to control warping. Yes, I could layer up to .040" using .010" and .020" styrene but I won't be purchasing ANY craft cutter until the manufacturer claims it will reliably cut all the way through .040" styrene in ALL of their product literature.  I know that model railroading does not fall into the craft hobby these cutting machines target, but I suspect a lot more cutters would be sold to modeler railroaders if these cutters could reliably and accurately cut through .040" styrene.

Hornblower

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Posted by mlehman on Monday, August 10, 2020 3:22 PM

I don't mind nit-pickers so much so long as they provide examples from their own layouts on how they did it right...

Except that very rarely happens and the nit-picking goes on and on.

Just saying, there are better ways to educate on a topic if it's that important than by starting out with taking someone else's efforts down a couple of notches.

Mike Lehman

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Monday, August 10, 2020 3:43 PM

SeeYou190

 

 
Overmod
I have never lived in a house where the inside door, the main door, didn't hinge to the inside.

 

Down here we only have one front door, not an inside and outside door.

As far as I have seen, nearly all "Category 5" doors hinge to the outside. Older doors hinged to the inside.

My new front door (cat-5) opens outward. That change took a little while to get used to.

-Kevin

 

Out swing door, is it under a porch? That simply does not work in places with winter weather. Only commercial buildings normally have out swing doors here.

I know Baltimore real well, and Philly and DC moderately well, and there are lots of row house steps without landings.........

On new construction today, the IRC requires landings, EXCEPT on the exterior side of an inswing door served by steps containing no more than two risers.

And it specificly allows screen and storm doors to open over the stairs.

Existing buildings are exempt from these requirements, especially these ones were the steps are on the public sidewalk.......

Sheldon

    

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Posted by ndbprr on Monday, August 10, 2020 5:23 PM

My parents owned a row home on Friendship St. In Mayfair area. Those houses had a garage and small basement at ground level and two stories above  there was a small yard out front with a terrace and flat area at the top so you enter at the first floor level.  I still remember some people still having coal delivered through a window on the front of the house into the basement. My father could bank a fire for overnight heat and could probably have fired a steam engine

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Posted by Billwiz on Monday, August 10, 2020 5:38 PM

So this is a post about being "nit picky"  It is Philly not Phillie.  Smile

 

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Posted by wp8thsub on Monday, August 10, 2020 6:14 PM

whitroth
All front steps have a landing at the top, wide enough that you can stand on without being hit by the [ d]oor....

Happens sometimes, not in others.  The author's models look plausible based on variations found on the prototype.

Rob Spangler

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Posted by danno54 on Tuesday, August 11, 2020 9:04 AM
You’ll notice none of those doors above have storm doors. Those buildings could be 100 years old. Long before OSHA.
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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Tuesday, August 11, 2020 2:27 PM

danno54
You’ll notice none of those doors above have storm doors. Those buildings could be 100 years old. Long before OSHA.
 

First, OSHA has nothing to do with residential building codes.

Second, in the top picture, 50% of the doors which can be clearly seen do have storm doors.

Third, the IRC (International Residential Code), specificly allows those storm doors, as I sited above, on steps that meet its current guildlines.

The houses in the top picture are in Baltimore, within a street or two I know where that is from the TV transmission tower in the background.

Those houses are indeed 100 years old or more, it is after all a 300 year old city. And those houses are exempt from current new construction codes.

100 year old houses are a specialty of mine, I restore them for a living.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by rayw46 on Tuesday, August 11, 2020 3:31 PM

I'm confused.  A doors hinges are always on the side of the door swing; thus outside doors swings in, the hinges being on the inside.  There is method in this madness.  If the outside door of a house swings out, the hinges would be on the outside and any fool could simply remove the pins from the hinge and remove the door; no picking locks, breading doors down, busting glass, etc.

Ray

Ray  

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Posted by whitroth on Tuesday, August 11, 2020 3:38 PM

I *may* have been thinking of storm doors.... However, consider this: you're standing a step or so down, and reaching *up* to unlock the door. Esp. in rain or snow.... Anyway, a sample:

https://www.phillymag.com/property/2017/02/03/philadelphia-rowhome-lessons/

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Posted by mlehman on Tuesday, August 11, 2020 4:02 PM

Ray,

With old school hinges, that's right.

Modern doors have other means. I'm sure Kevin's hurricane-rated door doesn't make it easy on looters after it's protected your house from the wind, for instance.

Mike Lehman

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Posted by York1 on Tuesday, August 11, 2020 4:03 PM

rayw46
If the outside door of a house swings out, the hinges would be on the outside and any fool could simply remove the pins from the hinge and remove the door; no picking locks, breading doors down, busting glass, etc.

I'm not an expert, so if I'm wrong, someone can correct.

From what I've heard, the hurricane doors have hinge pins that are not easily removed.

Doors that open outward, especially double doors which normally are weaker, are much more resistant to wind pressure.

York1 John       

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Posted by cv_acr on Friday, August 14, 2020 4:25 PM

whitroth
EXCEPT... the front steps are wrong. Follow me here: you walk up the steps, knock on the door, and someone opens the door.

 

And it smashes into your shins.

 

All front steps have a landing at the top, wide enough that you can stand on without being hit by the foor....

 

Who installs a house door that opens OUT?

Not anywhere I've ever lived...

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Posted by York1 on Friday, August 14, 2020 4:43 PM

cv_acr
Who installs a house door that opens OUT? Not anywhere I've ever lived...

 

The southeast U.S.

Hurricane doors open outward.  They are much stronger than doors that open inward.

York1 John       

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Posted by Doughless on Friday, August 14, 2020 5:40 PM

York1

 

 
cv_acr
Who installs a house door that opens OUT? Not anywhere I've ever lived...

 

 

The southeast U.S.

Hurricane doors open outward.  They are much stronger than doors that open inward.

 

There are differences based on geographical priorities.  Some discussions about the reasonings for the differences:

Inswing exterior doors.

  1. You want to keep the door hinge pins secure inside the building / room.
  2. If the exterior door swings outward it could catch the wind (on a windy day) and basically get pulled away from your hand and possibly bang into something.
  3. If you live in a snowy environment, opening the exterior door outward will be very difficult if there is a large amount of snow against it.
  4. If you wanted to add a screen door or storm door to the entry you will not be able to do so if the door swings outward.

Outswing esterior doors:

Outswing door could be more secure from breakins, kick ins.

In South Florida, it is the norm for all exterior doors to swing outward. It is also code. The doors must not only pass a forced entry test but also a water infiltration test. 

For many years we lived in a townhouse, growing up in Nebraska.  Its back door was neither inswing or outswing.  It was a slider.  The "landing" was a 12 inch tread that started a 4 step staircase.

 

 

- Douglas

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Posted by maxman on Friday, August 14, 2020 9:33 PM

Doughless
If you wanted to add a screen door or storm door to the entry you will not be able to do so if the door swings outward.

Doughless
In South Florida, it is the norm for all exterior doors to swing outward. It is also code.

Hmmmm.  Never thought about this.  Does this mean that there are no screen doors in South Florida?  Or is the weather so hot and miserable all the time so that no one wants to let the outside air in?

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Posted by NVSRR on Saturday, August 15, 2020 7:00 AM

First. A guy on shapeways has Philly home false fronts that capture the poarch and all. Along with corner stores.     

luke towan  just did a project with an inexpensive laser cutter  that does cut thick styrene

 

 Now that I think of it,  I don't remember a model of a house with a screen door at all anywhere

 

Shane

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Posted by wojosa31 on Saturday, August 15, 2020 3:23 PM

Not for nothing, the author is modeling the PRR Chestnut Hill Branch,and the majority of the row houses between North Philadelphia and Midvale (Budd Hunting Park Plant), are as he modeled. These are known as Workingman's Row Homes, and many date back to the 1880s.

Philadelphia row homes differ by neighborhood, and era built. The structures shownin the linked magazine article, for instance, are three to four story, multi-family and commercial structures, closer to the city center. Some homes date back to Colonial times.

Boris

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Posted by Doughless on Saturday, August 15, 2020 4:05 PM

maxman

 

 
Doughless
If you wanted to add a screen door or storm door to the entry you will not be able to do so if the door swings outward.

 

 

 
Doughless
In South Florida, it is the norm for all exterior doors to swing outward. It is also code.

 

Hmmmm.  Never thought about this.  Does this mean that there are no screen doors in South Florida?  Or is the weather so hot and miserable all the time so that no one wants to let the outside air in?

 

I live in Georgia, and our doors are the same as yankee doors, inswing.  I read the code for South Florida.  If I read it right, it says they must be outswinging now.  Probably since Hurricane Andrew.

Not sure why they couldn't just put plywood over an inswing like they do windows.

- Douglas

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Posted by GMTRacing on Saturday, August 15, 2020 7:06 PM

I would guess getting in and out would be a problem after you nailed plywood over it. Whistling

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Saturday, August 15, 2020 8:02 PM

York1
From what I've heard, the hurricane doors have hinge pins that are not easily removed.

The hinge pins are welded in place an sealed. They are not coming out without a torch or grinder.

maxman
Hmmmm.  Never thought about this.  Does this mean that there are no screen doors in South Florida?  Or is the weather so hot and miserable all the time so that no one wants to let the outside air in?

You cannot have a screen door in the same opening as the entry door.

I had a screened walkway about eight feet long with a screen door at the end of it. Kind of like an outside screened hallway. 

That has been removed.

Doughless
I live in Georgia, and our doors are the same as yankee doors, inswing.  I read the code for South Florida.  If I read it right, it says they must be outswinging now.  Probably since Hurricane Andrew. Not sure why they couldn't just put plywood over an inswing like they do windows.

All doors and windows must meet Category 5 "Dade County" specifications now.

Plywood is no longer acceptable for new construction or remodels, nor are most roll-up shutters, or accordion shutters.

My new windows are double-paned impact glass. Over $1,500 each! Ugh! My rear slider is insane. Still not installed. I am sick of it being in the garage. Hurricane prep now is literally nothing. No shutters, plywood, or shields. I can watch the storm with an unrestricted view through my impact windows.

There are doors that swing inwards that meet Cat-5 standards, but they are much more expensive than an outswing door. I think the price difference was around $1,200.00 for my door. My new front door will supposedly stop a 0.38 bullet.

The garage door is the last opening on my house that is not up to Cat-5 standards. The new garage door will not be too expensive, only about $1,000.00 after hurricane season and they are on sale. I will lose about 6 inches of garage length for all the interior bracing on the new door.

-Kevin

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Saturday, August 15, 2020 8:32 PM

SeeYou190

 

 
York1
From what I've heard, the hurricane doors have hinge pins that are not easily removed.

 

The hinge pins are welded in place an sealed. They are not coming out without a torch or grinder.

 

 
maxman
Hmmmm.  Never thought about this.  Does this mean that there are no screen doors in South Florida?  Or is the weather so hot and miserable all the time so that no one wants to let the outside air in?

 

You cannot have a screen door in the same opening as the entry door.

I had a screened walkway about eight feet long with a screen door at the end of it. Kind of like an outside screened hallway. 

That has been removed.

 

 
Doughless
I live in Georgia, and our doors are the same as yankee doors, inswing.  I read the code for South Florida.  If I read it right, it says they must be outswinging now.  Probably since Hurricane Andrew. Not sure why they couldn't just put plywood over an inswing like they do windows.

 

All doors and windows must meet Category 5 "Dade County" specifications now.

Plywood is no longer acceptable for new construction or remodels, nor are most roll-up shutters, or accordion shutters.

My new windows are double-paned impact glass. Over $1,500 each! Ugh! My rear slider is insane. Still not installed. I am sick of it being in the garage. Hurricane prep now is literally nothing. No shutters, plywood, or shields. I can watch the storm with an unrestricted view through my impact windows.

There are doors that swing inwards that meet Cat-5 standards, but they are much more expensive than an outswing door. I think the price difference was around $1,200.00 for my door. My new front door will supposedly stop a 0.38 bullet.

The garage door is the last opening on my house that is not up to Cat-5 standards. The new garage door will not be too expensive, only about $1,000.00 after hurricane season and they are on sale. I will lose about 6 inches of garage length for all the interior bracing on the new door.

-Kevin

 

I would rather blow snow on my red tractor..........

This inswing door is wood, build just like they did in 1901 when the house was built. It is 18" off the ground and the snow was 8" above the threshold that morning.

 

 

Sheldon

    

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