Post deleted. Since MY opinions obviously rankle, I wash my hands of this thread.
Wolf359He could find someone within the company, (surely there's other top brass like a VP etc.) or an outside investor that might be willing/could afford to buy the company. He could even hire someone to take over and still be pretty much retired. In my opinion, shutting down just isn't right.
Well, what if the owner died and the company shut down? That ain't right either but the dead man will be unable to respond to charges of unfairness. And btw, what about the owner of the Chinese factory AFFA that suddenly closed it's doors at the end of July 2018 throwing a bunch of US model train companies out of ability to make trains? Unfair but it was his factory.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Tinplate Toddler I find some of the comments here strange - giving me the impression that this forum is dominated by a bunch of old bickering geezers.
I find some of the comments here strange - giving me the impression that this forum is dominated by a bunch of old bickering geezers.
Rich
Alton Junction
Post deleted.
MTH made a couple of very unique engines for the Milwaukee Road, which I model. They made the Little Joe and the Bi-Polar, which are electrics that no one else has touched. I must thank them for making these uncommon engines.
I might have bought one, but I don't have catenary so that would detract from the realism. Also, these again we're DCS-only models, so they would have required surgery right out of the box. Maybe a new owner might be more DCC-friendly.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Wolf359That's really selfish and unfair of Mike Wolf to do to the workers and the model railroading community....snip.......Turn the business over to someone else.
How does that work? Is he obligated to just hand someone the keys to his 123,000 sq ft building on 8 acres of land with all the contents, inventory and accounts receivable?
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Sheldon,
The loss of any company producing items for our hobby is indeed a loss. No matter good or bad, their products grew our hobby. I know Wolf as we are from the same town and I found him to be the real deal and cared greatly about his products. I am a brass guy, but I do have a few of his locos and found them to be excellent in all areas. My fleet of brass has allowed them acess to my mainline with no complaints. I only hope that Mike finds a buyer instead of just closing down. If not for my age bordering on relic, I'd be giving him a call.
Mike... good luck, on whatever you do next. Despite mixed critiques, you have my vote of excellence.....and then some.
HZ
I am sorry to hear this although yes Mike was a figure who seemed to generate some controversy in his time. And his habit of being proprietary about so many factors including the assumed voltage on his HO line was an irritant to many.
I have only one MTH model, a very nice gondola in HO. I figured I'd give the line a try.
One reason I am sorry to learn of this is somewhat selfish. MTH has obviously been a big player in model trains scale and toy and they have large displays at Milwaukee's Trainfest each year - and those displays are colorful, action filled, and attract crowds. The money he pays for his space and the crowds that his trains attract help keep shows like Trainfest running for the benefit of all, including those who are uninterested in the products themselves. Nobody benefits when a major player in model trains of any stripe calls it quits and shuts down.
My hunch is that there will be some cherry picking of the MTH tooling by various other entities, maybe even including the outfits he has sued from time to time!
I do by the way FULLY understand a desire to retire!
Dave Nelson
this is a huge blow to highrail O gauge, and completely insignificant to HO.
I admit I don't follow the highrail O gauge world, but from casual observations of comments, the market has been shrinking a lot in the last few years. So maybe it is a good time to get out of O, especially if the customer base is shrinking a lot.
Wow, there are pretty harsh comments here for someone who is retiring...
Which comments?
I do know that many many have commented about being unhappy with the DCS digital stuff.
What do you consider harsh?
riogrande5761 rrinker Someone may come forward and buy them. I don't think this announcement comes because they are about to go bankrupt, Mike mostly is probably ready to retire at this point. If the patent expiration in 2021 is true, then ever-wily Mike is getting while the getting is good. Nothing more, nothing less. If buyers are also wily, they could just let the clock run out on the patents and then get in for cheaper?
rrinker Someone may come forward and buy them. I don't think this announcement comes because they are about to go bankrupt, Mike mostly is probably ready to retire at this point. If the patent expiration in 2021 is true, then ever-wily Mike is getting while the getting is good. Nothing more, nothing less.
If buyers are also wily, they could just let the clock run out on the patents and then get in for cheaper?
Yes. If any patent runs out in 2021, then no buyer will be giving much value to the patentend products, IMO. Especially with ramp up expenses working into economic headwinds the next few months.
I suspect that the only thing that has real value is the tooling for the O scale products. Not even sure the HO scale stuff would be very desireable, outside of a few products. I think most of their HO scale is duplicative, a couple of times over.
- Douglas
About duplication of suppliers, I'm not sure that is a bad thing for consumers. Competition is always good. I hope the owner gets a decent offer for his company, both for him and the staff.
Simon
Tinplate Toddler No doubt that MTH is one of the key players in the market and even more so in O gauge. Whenever a key player leaves the market for whatever reason, it leaves a gap which will not easily be filled in such a small industry. I find some of the comments here strange - giving me the impression that this forum is dominated by a bunch of old bickering geezers.
No doubt that MTH is one of the key players in the market and even more so in O gauge. Whenever a key player leaves the market for whatever reason, it leaves a gap which will not easily be filled in such a small industry.
Ulrich, this is a huge blow to highrail O gauge, and completely insignificant to HO.
Maybe even a benefit to HO. Less duplication means better market shares for existing companies/products, which means those companies will be stronger.
I will use this opportunity to renew my opinion about all the duplication while other products go unoffered.
Sheldon
If the patents on their tech expire next year - the value of the company takes a huge hit.
TO simplify it - they treated the HO market like the O hi-rail market, one stop shopping. One supplier for everything you run (with maybe a LITTLE give for rolling stock, they never made much HO rolling stock). Problem is, that was never the HO scale model. We buy our locos from whover makes the nicest loco we are looking for, not just blindly buy one manufacturer's offerings. We equip them with our choice of control system, be that DC, DCC, or something else. Not one single supplier - although there are some DCC users who will only buy decoders from the maker of their system, which unlike DCS, is not a requirement. They never made DCS available to add in to other locos, like you can buy DCC decoders. Their solution was to tell you to buy two systems, and they designed DCS to allow pass through. But who wants to deal with two different control systems on the same layout (not to mention the expense of buying two)? That would be like Sheldon running half his main with his MZL based system and the other half with the old fashioned toggle flipping method of cab control.
Someone may come forward and buy them. I don't think this announcement comes because they are about to go bankrupt, Mike mostly is probably ready to retire at this point. If the patent expiration in 2021 is true, then ever-wily Mike is getting while the getting is good. Nothing more, nothing less.
And even if you like the HO locos, converting them to DCC is a nightmare, because they all use positive function outputs with a negative common, completely opposite DCC, so their LED light boards all have to be replaced or required just to swap a decoder. And many of them use a supercap instead of non-volatile memory to save settings (maybe that's only in O - the older O locos used a battery, just to save a few cents a loco on a more expensive microcontroller). Makes me wonder if my FAs will even remember their DCC address after nearly 7 years in storage. So far, none of the DCC locos I've pulled out have had any issues.
Gimmicks galore - the remote uncouplers were a neat idea, too bad you had to slam into standing cars like playing with tinplate to make them close up again. Class lights that swap between red and green or off - next to useless. No fear though, ESU blew them away on that front with white, green, and red (or off).
ANyway, definitely unexpected. The question is, how much impact does this have on a HO scale modeler? Seems like not a whole lot. It never was their main line of business.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Man, you'd think a nuclear bomb went off then MTH made the announcement - it's posted everywhere!
I have never bought anything from MTH so this closure won't affect me. I'm not bothered.
Many have complained about the non-standard digital system and not in a good way. If anyone picks up the tooling, and produces more models based on them, hopefully they will change to standard DCC components.
ATLANTIC CENTRALBut, speaking about HO, with all the duplication of product, it is not likely any of the other big players would be interested. They already make most of those items. And make them better for less money by most people's standards.
With Lionel (again) attempting a new HO line...They might be interested in that portion.
Happy times!
Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)
"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"
MotleySuprising that Mike Wolf is not gonna sell it and retire, he could make a bunch of money.
Mike
Motley Dang that really sucks. I like their HO stuff. My favorite was their SD70ACes, because they were very strong pullers, and great detail too. Suprising that Mike Wolf is not gonna sell it and retire, he could make a bunch of money.
Dang that really sucks. I like their HO stuff. My favorite was their SD70ACes, because they were very strong pullers, and great detail too.
Suprising that Mike Wolf is not gonna sell it and retire, he could make a bunch of money.
He would need a buyer, an any bean counter will tell you the return on investment in this business sucks.
He said some of his employees may work out such a deal, we will see.
But, speaking about HO, with all the duplication of product, it is not likely any of the other big players would be interested. They already make most of those items. And make them better for less money by most people's standards.
They will be happy for the larger market share.
Hopefully, the good parts of the product line get sold off to interested parties, and get revamped to better suit the market.
MTH has never produced anything in HO that appeals to me; especially factoring in their proprietary control system. I find it interesting that such a large company has no management succession plan or any kind of business continuity strategy. This may be a one-man show; that may explain some of the arrogance referenced by Sheldon above which I agree with entirely. But Mr. Wolf also may think that the future is not bright and he is maximizing value from a liquidation. I am curious to know whether he sells his tooling; or destroys it.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
Paul3 Yeah, not a big deal for me or my club. Of the 2000 HO-scale engines we have registered to our 65 members, just six of them are MTH (and they belong to just two members). They never made anything I wanted, and the self-promoting hyperbole and the, um, misleading advertisements shall we say, plus the number of lawyers they had on retainer, turned off many to MTH's product line. Not to mention their toy-like looks and gimmickry, along with their higher prices to pay for the gimmicks, meant that very few of their engines sold to our members.I will always give MTH credit for stopping the UP licensing fiasco. That's the single best thing they ever did. But their models? No sale (not to me, anyways).
Yeah, not a big deal for me or my club. Of the 2000 HO-scale engines we have registered to our 65 members, just six of them are MTH (and they belong to just two members). They never made anything I wanted, and the self-promoting hyperbole and the, um, misleading advertisements shall we say, plus the number of lawyers they had on retainer, turned off many to MTH's product line. Not to mention their toy-like looks and gimmickry, along with their higher prices to pay for the gimmicks, meant that very few of their engines sold to our members.I will always give MTH credit for stopping the UP licensing fiasco. That's the single best thing they ever did. But their models? No sale (not to me, anyways).
I was trying to be a little more subtle in my first post, but you are right. The MTH HO steam in particular all has a toy like appearance of a shrunk down piece of O gauge. I only know one guy, who only bought one, that's it.
The DC compatibility issues, the early DCC compatibility issues, "annual new release" marketing (which is more annoying than regular preorders) all showed a lot of arrogance and/or a total disregard for any understanding of the established HO market.
I could be wrong, but I can't see how they made any money in HO.
And then the prices..........
Surprising, but good riddance. I still recall the lawsuit MTH filed against BLI. And, from what I recall, MTH locos in HO scale were a real problem early on for guys who bought them. I would be saddened to see Atlas or BLI or even Intermountain close down, but MTH? Nah.
MisterBeasley I am always sorry to hear of the demise of a train supplier. On the other hand, there may be opportunities here as well. Why can't we get an MTH engine with a DCC decoder?
I am always sorry to hear of the demise of a train supplier. On the other hand, there may be opportunities here as well. Why can't we get an MTH engine with a DCC decoder?
That´s sad news for the European O scale community! MTH made a number of highly detailed, high quality locomotives of European prototype at reasonable prices and not available through any other source. MTH will be missed there.
Well, I hope that someone picks up their S scale line. There aren't that many in S that we can lose one.
Paul
Well, products seldom die in this hobby, they simply change hands........
I would say Mike Wolf has had a good run overall, but I would not be surprised to learn that the HO venture was not really a big success.
I only own one MTH product, a box car.........
Lionel invented O gauge, now it will be just them and Bachmann pretty much.
Personally I never cared for the marketing approach, nor was I impressed with any of the HO locomotive products. The rolling stock is nice.
I will say that a lot of the O gauge stuff was very nice for that type of stuff.
Actually, one less company making Big Boys is likely a good thing for the hobby.......
Good luck to you in future endeavors, Mike. By the way, I'm retired, and not having any involvement in my previous job is very fulfilling.