Howard ZaneMy experience with the Chicago brass show was excactly the opposite. Upon arriving as a dealer, staff met me at doors and helped with myset up...then two days later...take down. I found all of the staff to be quite friendly and courteous. Most of the vendors and importers were quite well behaved...otherwise no one talked down to me.
It sounds like you were there as a dealer, I was a participant.
I do not want to digress this thread any further, so please read what I write below just for what it is...
Most conventions I attend are Wargaming, Cosplay, or "Comiconish" in nature. These are always a blast, people are having a ton of fun, and any poor outsider that mistakenly wanders in will quickly be recruited to become one of the group. He will get a Mario Hat on his head, dice in one hand, a beer in the other, and the next thing he knows is he is commanding the Republican Guard in the Battle of Waterloo.
When I attended Brass Expo, I was an attendee, but I was treated very much like an outsider. I would have thought I should have been the Belle Of The Ball.
I had just started buying brass, I had always wanted brass, and I was enthusiastic about being there. My career was on a rocket-trajectory, and I had plenty of diposable income to spend on my new treasures.
When people found out I only had three brass locomotives, five cabooses, and a couple of covered hopper cars I was treated like a tenth grade dropout at a Mensa gathering.
The way non-convention people at the hotel were shunned away when they showed curiosity was a shame in itself.
The dealers did not want to talk to me, and other attendees dismissed me entirely.
I do not think I met you there. You have always been a bit of an heroic character to me, so I believe I would have been excited if I saw you.
Anyway... it was a wasted trip and a bad experience for me.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
One other thought John,
Just like Kevin, I may find my self interested in vintage brass at some point since I have no plans to pay $600 or more for locos with sound decoders and "smoke" that I would remove.
In which case, I too will be very happy if the price of vintage brass stays depressed.........
But other than the pieces I mentioned above, my roster is not really in need of any more locos.
Sheldon
The one painter, now in his 70's and "semi-retired" insists on weathering everything just a little bit. He is very subtle with that, and his work looks amazing (all air brushed, no chalks). However, I put a gorgeous diesel he did for me next to a new steam engine, and that did it. I was hooked on steam again. It wasn't his fault at all. The diesel engine sold immediately when I consigned it.
The other painter, now retired from pro painting, 28 years older than me and thinning his personal collection before his expiration date comes up, knows his son doesn't like brass and will only get pennies on the dollar for it. I am buying what I can from him, that I want or can use. He is regearing, remotoring, and painting engines acquired over a lifetime, and selling them while he can get what they are actually worth, and he even gives some of the money to charity. He specifically has done some models just for me, but pity I couldn't run all of them. That painter will not weather anything, on the grounds that after all the work he has done to make the model look nice, he will not reduce it's value with weathering. He also insists on prototypically correct painting and lettering--he follows actual railroad practice for the railroads in question, refusing to deviate from their painting practices.
I have learned much from some of these people, even about what not to do, and how to safely remove finger oil from models so that it doesn't harm the paint and decals (use naptha--it won't hurt Scalecoat 1 paint on brass).
So I have a lot of respect for them.
Bob Hunter was an amazing painter, a member of the Southern Railway steam program, who actually crewed those trips. He knew how to weather steam...but my one friend died and the Bob Hunter models he had were gone...who knows where, or I would have bought them, if I could.
John,
I don't "dislike" brass, I just don't need it for my purposes. I do have two older brass USRA Pacifics.........they run nice and look nice, even with their Bachmann long haul tenders and their plastic Athearn Delta trailing trucks.
And the Scalecoat paint on the tender does not look any different than the Scalecoat paint on the locomotive - I painted both......
You are right, I will never get the buying stuff and then selling it off.
In 50 years I have made three or four purchase mistakes, or changed my mind. So that's about how many locos I have sold off in that time.
Info on what curves equipment will handle is pretty common these days, why would you buy something that won't run on your layout? Or, with older stuff like you mention, simple rules about engine wheelbase usually work.
My last layout, and my next one, has 36" minimum mainline curves. And guess what, I don't buy steam locomotive models, brass or plastic, with rigid driver wheelbases above 21 scale feet. Because I want them all to run good and look good while doing so.
I hope for your sake, one day you figure out what you really like.........and keep it for more than a year.........
And when I find a good deal on a Western Maryland Pacific, or a couple of B&O B-18's, I might just snatch them up.
That's the only brass I really have any need for on my layout.
Do you weather any of those beautiful brass models?
Sheldon--
You absolutely don't have a clue about me, and NO I don't just sell stuff off when money is tight. I on a few occasions sold trains to help with things we wanted, like the travel baseball expenses that actually got my kid to college AND earned him college scholarships. For what he wants to do, it was money well spent.
Other times I sell trains to buy trains. I sell them when they can't take my curves without completely dismantling and rebuilding my layout, which would cost $1000's to do, and would be foolish when we are moving in a few years. You can't always know before you buy what will work or not. I even consult the PFM catalogs for minimum radius, but that doesn't hold for Balboa or other competitors' models of that time period. It is NOT possible to test run everything. Sometimes I make a purchase mistake, so sue me. Maybe you are just so perfect that you never made a purchase mistake. I get rid of mine and replace them.
I thought this hobby was about continual learning, not belittling others. I've been blessed to get to know a couple guys 30 years older than me who have taught me an awful lot; even during this "lockdown", I've had the opportunity to learn stuff.
Also, my last 8 brass purchases have been WELL under $1000, as I stated CLEARLY above, actually as low as $450, which is very competitive with ANYTHING you can buy in steam now, plastic, diecast, hybrid, MTH, what have you. Athearn Genesis challengers are in the $400 street price range, and oh btw, my younger son has one of those too.
You have made your sentiments CLEAR that you don't like brass. So, that being the case, why are you still reading this thread?????
Others of us clearly believe that brass offers a certain realism you just can't get with molded/painted plastic. The paint finish just looks different on metal, and properly done, more realistic, at least to some of us, perhaps those few who care for that particular thing.
I never said you were wrong to have a fleet of custom modified but readily available engines. I never said what you do on your layout is "wrong". If you want to have 15 Atlantic Central LifeLike Berkshires, then great for you, I really don't care.
But don't dare to MOCK me because I might want to have a brass one that is perhaps more representative of a certain real engine or road number that ran.
(Insert Chef Gordon Ramsay's favorite phrase here).
John Mock
P.S. I love Rio Grande and their steam power, but excepting the ever present plastic and diecast versions of Class L-97 Challengers and L-107 USRA copy 2-8-8-2's, right now I can't think of any even remotely close standard gauge steam engine that would fit the bill, that is available in anything OTHER than brass.
In fact I've got posts over on Facebook offering to buy one of the Rio Grande steamers in brass, and nobody wants to sell theirs presently. Even if they did, it's only a $600 model if it's mint. Again, comparable to any new diecast, plastic, or hybrid steamer in price.
You just don't get it.
Riogrande and I disagree on a lot of stuff, but on this I am right with him.
When I was young I could not afford brass. OR, I would not choose to afford brass at the expense of other things.
I refuse to live like you, selling off personal possessions when money gets tight.
I have NEVER done that in my life, and I have not always had the kind of money I have now. I raised three kids in a row house on one income with just two or three paychecks between me and broke.
But I never had to sell my trains to pay the electric bill, or even to send the girls to dance class. I still have virtually every model train I have ever bought, and many that were part of what my father gave me as a child.
Today, and for the last 25 or more years, I have done well, I live well.
I could "choose" to afford at least some brass, but it simply is not important to my modeling goals.
Actually, if I had what I have spent on 140 "plastic" locos in the last 25 years, I could buy a dozen, or two, maybe even 3 dozen, of the "finest brass". But that would not satisfy my modeling goals at all.
I don't have any "real" art hanging on my walls either.........
I drive moderately expensive late model cars that are paid for. I live in a nice single home in a rural area on two acres that is paid for.
If I had more money I would not buy more expensive cars, and I would not buy a more expensive house.
And I'm not paying $1,000 or more for a model train locomotive. In fact I would have to think long and hard to spend much more than $300 or $400 which is about the most I have ever spent on a single loco.
And amazingly, all my $100, and $200, and a few $300 locomotives run great, and look great for their intended purposes on my model layout.
I'm a big student of deminishing return theory and will often settle for 85% performance when it only costs 50% or less of cost of 100% performance.
Especially when the the additional 15% of performance is largely esoteric in nature.
riogrande5761 There always was a certain element to buying brass that went beyond "I just need a locomotive to pull my trains." I won't say that brass was bought as an investment but much of it was bought because it was, in one meaning of the word or another, "art." Collected for its beauty and fascination. Sort of like owning a real piece of "art"; which often is a kind of a status symbol of those weathy enough to afford such things. Very often Art is considered a luxury and among hobbyists, similar could be said of higher cost brass engines (not the cheap deals found on eBay btw). I could be wrong but it seems that those with a disposable income sufficient to afford costly brass engines sometimes talk of the subject as if it's sort of common place or "routine" for them. But to many hobbyists, buying expensive brass engines is financially out of reach, just like owning a luxury car may be out of reach. By world standards, definitely in the luxury category. Plus there was a feeling that buying that first brass locomotive was like pledging a fraternity or smoking and drinking -- your passage from boy to man. Or passage from lower disposable income to higher disposable income - for some when they can start buying expensive brass engines - they have "arrived". Much of my life I've viewed brass locomotives as being out-of-reach to me financially. Even in more recent years as my disposable income has increased, I'd have to sell off a lot of equipment to afford a small number of brass engines. But I've never felt it necessary to sacrifice my goals to have a piece of "art" for arts sake. Even that said, when I have looked at brass engines of my time period and genre, I"ve been disappointed that more often than not signature details which were "wrong", mainly the plow, and I figured if I were going to pay "that price" by-golly it would be to get an engine with the correct details. After all, that is why I have bought some brass cabooses, because cabooses usually have a signature look to a railroad and for some, that is important for a train to look right. Fortunately, newer plastic engines have actually bettered brass in the "right details" department for D&RGW. Like Larry, the brass I have bought is to run, and in my case, to get trains that look like the real D&RGW trains did. I don't have enough extra money floating around to buy an expensive piece of art to put on a shelf or join some theoretical fraternity. Heck, when I was in college, most fraternities made pledges put up with stupid or annoying exercises or jump through hoops. No thank you. To me, joining a fraternaty is something I'd rather not do. Maybe that's just one more reason so many in the hobby are "lone wolves"; no annoying social stuff or head trips. It reminds me of something my wifes father said "if I have to give someone money for them to like me, I'd rather not know that person". If I have to buy brass engines to be accepted by guys in the model RR community ...
There always was a certain element to buying brass that went beyond "I just need a locomotive to pull my trains." I won't say that brass was bought as an investment but much of it was bought because it was, in one meaning of the word or another, "art." Collected for its beauty and fascination.
Sort of like owning a real piece of "art"; which often is a kind of a status symbol of those weathy enough to afford such things. Very often Art is considered a luxury and among hobbyists, similar could be said of higher cost brass engines (not the cheap deals found on eBay btw).
I could be wrong but it seems that those with a disposable income sufficient to afford costly brass engines sometimes talk of the subject as if it's sort of common place or "routine" for them. But to many hobbyists, buying expensive brass engines is financially out of reach, just like owning a luxury car may be out of reach. By world standards, definitely in the luxury category.
Plus there was a feeling that buying that first brass locomotive was like pledging a fraternity or smoking and drinking -- your passage from boy to man.
Or passage from lower disposable income to higher disposable income - for some when they can start buying expensive brass engines - they have "arrived". Much of my life I've viewed brass locomotives as being out-of-reach to me financially. Even in more recent years as my disposable income has increased, I'd have to sell off a lot of equipment to afford a small number of brass engines. But I've never felt it necessary to sacrifice my goals to have a piece of "art" for arts sake.
Even that said, when I have looked at brass engines of my time period and genre, I"ve been disappointed that more often than not signature details which were "wrong", mainly the plow, and I figured if I were going to pay "that price" by-golly it would be to get an engine with the correct details. After all, that is why I have bought some brass cabooses, because cabooses usually have a signature look to a railroad and for some, that is important for a train to look right. Fortunately, newer plastic engines have actually bettered brass in the "right details" department for D&RGW.
Like Larry, the brass I have bought is to run, and in my case, to get trains that look like the real D&RGW trains did. I don't have enough extra money floating around to buy an expensive piece of art to put on a shelf or join some theoretical fraternity. Heck, when I was in college, most fraternities made pledges put up with stupid or annoying exercises or jump through hoops. No thank you. To me, joining a fraternaty is something I'd rather not do. Maybe that's just one more reason so many in the hobby are "lone wolves"; no annoying social stuff or head trips.
It reminds me of something my wifes father said "if I have to give someone money for them to like me, I'd rather not know that person". If I have to buy brass engines to be accepted by guys in the model RR community ...
I have to respond to this because I think somehow, unfortunately, perhaps some items may have been misunderstood.
I most certainly do not view HO brass as some great "fraternity" to which I "need" to belong. I love the models themselves, and am definitely not some kind of elitist though people have at times made that accusation. My friends who have been into brass are regular guys who had regular jobs, or were perhaps retired. Regular jobs included but were not limited to: automotive garage technician, automotive car salesman, over the road truck driver, farm equipment sales person, college instructor (not professor)...not one single guy of our "lodge" (brass operators) circle was rich or even "well-off". J.P. Barger of Reboxx, who attended a few of our operating sessions, was a bit of an exception, but he was a guest and not a regular member.
To me the models themselves offer a whole lot that is just not available in plastic, at any price. While I'm at it, two of my recent brass purchases have been at or even below the price point of current brass hybrids or BLI diecast articulated prices. Everything must run for me, or it gets traded away in favor of something that will run instead. I have no time for shelf queens. I just rebuilt part of my layout to improve horizontal curvature to better accommodate brass steam power (though I cannot fix all the curves).
The older I get, I've read more about steam power, its design and operational history. I just like steam power, and with qualifications, most of the plastic steam power just would not fill the bill for me, even with upgrades, because they just aren't as well done.
We all have to make budget choices. There are people that buy every single road number of a Tangent or ExactRail hopper car, expending literally several thousand dollars to do so, because they want to have long trains of them, I guess. I have less of everything than some folks do, and for the price of all my brass engines combined, well, I'd still be under just the rolling stock investment of many people in this hobby. Please don't imply that I'm some kind of elitist because I like nice steam power that looks more real when painted because it is real metal.
John
No shelf queens!
riogrande5761 Fortunately, newer plastic engines have actually bettered brass in the "right details" department for D&RGW.
Fortunately, newer plastic engines have actually bettered brass in the "right details" department for D&RGW.
I'm pretty forgiving when it comes to "right details" because I can't pick them out in the real world in the first place. "Looks pretty much like what an SD70ACe looks like" is good enough for me.
Even if I was, though, brass has nothing for me. I'm a contemporary (I'm reluctant to say "modern" because that's almost a 65 year swath now) guy and the railroads I have an interest in and plan to have represented in some manner on my layout have a very limited fleet. Some SD40-3s and GP40-3s pretty much does it for me. Aside from the sort of work I'm going to have to do myself, like making sure the ditch lights are above or below the deck on a specific locomotive, I can largely find what I need to find. But the NS/CSX runthrough power...plastic does a pretty good job nowadays with the Evos and SD70s.
I do have the "well...this doesn't fit, but is pretty nice..." stuff for the modular club. The I-12 wagontop caboose from Spring Mills Depot is very, very nice. Why would I pay 4 or 5 times the price for one a brass one that with cruder details?
I agree with Howard that these models are an art form just in themselves, but even art has varying price levels, and I don't think one has to spend a lot of money to get something good and usable.
Yet now there is a fantastic group of brass modelers over on Facebook devoted to not just collecting but remotoring, regearing, and modifying these models, and upgrading to today's standards. There are how to do it photos and videos over there, and helpful enough people such that somebody who really wanted to dive in could go on Facebook and learn from some real pros (whom I never yet have had the opportunity to meet in person). Some of these people are taking the models to a level frankly beyond what I ever expected, with dcc, sound, working classification lights, working cab interior lights, red firebox glow, sometimes even working power reverse (a few models were also made with that feature). They go into great detail regarding what doesn't work right and how to fix it. There are some notable areas where the Korean models have issues that should be repaired. The delayed motion articulated gearboxes, that allow one set of articulated drivers to slip and begin moving before the others were a great idea, but they do not last because a couple gears are way too small to hold up.
There are even a few twenty-somethings who are passionate about these brass trains (Adam Pomeranz).
Many of the same people lurk in more than one group. I highly recommend the following groups:
Brass Model Paint and Repair
Brass Locomotive Collectors
The Brass Locomotive Collectors and Operators
Brass Model Train Buy Swap and Sell
PFM Sound (which is moderated by Hal Maynard)
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Kevin
My experience with the Chicago brass show was excactly the opposite. Upon arriving as a dealer, staff met me at doors and helped with my set up...then two days later...take down. I found all of the staff to be quite friendly and courteous. Most of the vendors and importers were quite well behaved...otherwise no one talked down to me. I've been out of the loop for a long time so many did not know that I was the previous owner of the show and dealer. I'm probably one of the worst dressers on the planet....always jeans, shirt never tucked in, and soiled ball cap. The only negatives were that I tried to convince Dan, that moving the show was a bad idea, and table prices were a bit too high.....making the show affordable to only large dealers and importers. When I ran the show, i did not want importers only but the guy with some brass in the closet looking to sell and trade. You may have been somewhat intimidated by the oppulence and pricing of new brass....and understandably so. I was and I'm not known for being poor. It could not have been your appearance as no one can beat me on that subject.
HZ
BRAKIEKevin, Which one of those beautiful Tenshodo 0-8-0s do you have?
Larry: It is a USRA locomotive with a clear vision tender.
I traded two Kato undecorated N scale SD-40s for it.
It runs great, but it is a little noisy. The paint was on it when it came to me. Eventually I will fix the boiler front and paint it... eventually.
I have another USRA 0-8-0 from Alco Models that runs much better, but it is still bare brass so rarely was run.
This one ran for years on my last two layouts.
This is also one of only three brass locomotives i have with a front coupler.
Howard ZaneThe following year the new owner moved the show to Chicago at the request of many of the importers (some who never showed) and will go down in the annals of train show history as the finest and most oppulent train show ever...and then some. But the attendance was quite poor, although there were plenty of dealers and importers.
I attended Dan's brass expo show in Chicago, since my wife has family in Indiana not too far away, it was an easy trip to make.
I never posted any experiences about it because I do not like to be a downer, but for me it was a terrible show. I was treated terribly by everyone there. I was much younger than all in attendance (and I am old), and my brass collection is not extensive or impressive.
I enjoyed seeing all the rare and beautiful models on display, but the overall enjoyment factor for money spent to be there was poor.
I could have used that trip to Chicago to attend Adepticon and had 1,000,000 times more fun.
PRR8259 Hello Howard-- Always enjoyable to read your posts At this point, I just do not believe the rising tide of prices on the recent, very limited production, and sometimes quite outstanding brass models will result in the prices of all the vintage brass out there increasing. There is a perception among the hard core brass hounds over on multiple Facebook brass forums that "only junk dealers sell on Ebay now", so maybe that's why my own models aren't selling. However, even on consignment, I have mint models that are underperforming sales expectations. Do we really have a marketing problem? Should we not be promoting the vintage brass as being a good low cost entry point and an opportunity to learn with? I was born in 1968 and have no real memories of everyday working freight steam, yet somehow am absolutely fascinated, and plastic just doesn't cut it for me (thank you for that, Howard, you have been a "mentor" and an inspiration). Thanks to Howard, I've worked to seek out those few people (ok, one 80 year old now retired pro-painter and rebuilding expert, not named Howard himself) who can provide me with a few (upgraded) good running vintage models at reasonable or fair prices, and I no longer have to have the latest thing, but have been shown quite graphically via photos and videos of failed Korean components why Japanese can be better and more durable to operate on a layout. John, Always good to see your posts and thanks for fine words. When I, Ken Young, and Bob Hess began Brass Expo in Columbia, Md in '95, the show was an immediate sell out...both for vendors and attendees. One more body stuffed into the Columbia Inn would have brought the fire chief in full battle gear. It got better when we moved to New Bruswick, NJ with attendance equal to many fine train shows and kept growing through our other locations until 9-11 put an abrupt end to it. 13 years later I held what I called a resuurection show in conjuction with the spring Great Scale Model Train show, and due to the well known decline in brass sales, was pleasantly surprised at the over 650 attendance (both days). At that show Dan Glasure offered to purchase the entire show with my wife hearing the offer. She knew that putting on this show by myself was an excersise in exhaustion, and talked me into to selling. I guess being almost 80 at the time was the clincher. The following year the new owner moved the show to Chicago at the request of many of the importers (some who never showed) and will go down in the annals of train show history as the finest and most oppulent train show ever...and then some. But the attendance was quite poor, although there were plenty of dealers and importers. The show was then purchased by Forrest Nace... a well known brass collector and videographer who moved the show back east to Lancaster, PA. to a nice facility and attendance improved somewhat, but what was missing? First was extensive and accurate advertising, but today who has the guts to lay out big bucks for an event that could easily flop? During my run, we did just that and with ads in periodicals and magazines about retirement in addition to the model railroad press. Upon canvassing attendees at our second show, we found many who came from ads in retirement mags and who had recently retired looking for a new hobby. Many I met became hooked at the wonderful quality of these models and I think returned the follwoing year as newbie collectors or wannabies. Since,I have found that ad fees in these publications has more than tripled in price, but the message is loud and clear.....EXTEND BRASS MODELS TO THE COLLECTOR MARKET. Still I'm put down every time I suggest this, but I witnessed what can happen if done so. To market a product to a rather parsimonius group of folks who are quite happy to run and play with trains no matter what they are made of is tantamount to lunacy. I've been to serious collector shows, and found that folks will collect anything as long as they know about it and literature is available about it. Brass models are works of fine art and are perfect for any collector be it builders, roads, wheel arrangements, named passenger trains, cabeese and so on. Possibly some of these new collectors would eventually want to play with their new toys and become active model railroaders. I have met some who did this exact thing. Anything more is pure speculation, but a darn good possibility. One thing that worked against this collector bit was re-running models...and then lack of serial numbers and date in addition to an information packets with each model. Many of the plastic manufactures do this sans serial numbers, but a model that retails for 4 times as much? My ten bucks worth....HZ
Hello Howard--
Always enjoyable to read your posts
At this point, I just do not believe the rising tide of prices on the recent, very limited production, and sometimes quite outstanding brass models will result in the prices of all the vintage brass out there increasing.
There is a perception among the hard core brass hounds over on multiple Facebook brass forums that "only junk dealers sell on Ebay now", so maybe that's why my own models aren't selling. However, even on consignment, I have mint models that are underperforming sales expectations.
Do we really have a marketing problem? Should we not be promoting the vintage brass as being a good low cost entry point and an opportunity to learn with?
I was born in 1968 and have no real memories of everyday working freight steam, yet somehow am absolutely fascinated, and plastic just doesn't cut it for me (thank you for that, Howard, you have been a "mentor" and an inspiration).
Thanks to Howard, I've worked to seek out those few people (ok, one 80 year old now retired pro-painter and rebuilding expert, not named Howard himself) who can provide me with a few (upgraded) good running vintage models at reasonable or fair prices, and I no longer have to have the latest thing, but have been shown quite graphically via photos and videos of failed Korean components why Japanese can be better and more durable to operate on a layout.
Always good to see your posts and thanks for fine words. When I, Ken Young, and Bob Hess began Brass Expo in Columbia, Md in '95, the show was an immediate sell out...both for vendors and attendees. One more body stuffed into the Columbia Inn would have brought the fire chief in full battle gear. It got better when we moved to New Bruswick, NJ with attendance equal to many fine train shows and kept growing through our other locations until 9-11 put an abrupt end to it. 13 years later I held what I called a resuurection show in conjuction with the spring Great Scale Model Train show, and due to the well known decline in brass sales, was pleasantly surprised at the over 650 attendance (both days). At that show Dan Glasure offered to purchase the entire show with my wife hearing the offer. She knew that putting on this show by myself was an excersise in exhaustion, and talked me into to selling. I guess being almost 80 at the time was the clincher. The following year the new owner moved the show to Chicago at the request of many of the importers (some who never showed) and will go down in the annals of train show history as the finest and most oppulent train show ever...and then some. But the attendance was quite poor, although there were plenty of dealers and importers. The show was then purchased by Forrest Nace... a well known brass collector and videographer who moved the show back east to Lancaster, PA. to a nice facility and attendance improved somewhat, but what was missing? First was extensive and accurate advertising, but today who has the guts to lay out big bucks for an event that could easily flop? During my run, we did just that and with ads in periodicals and magazines about retirement in addition to the model railroad press. Upon canvassing attendees at our second show, we found many who came from ads in retirement mags and who had recently retired looking for a new hobby. Many I met became hooked at the wonderful quality of these models and I think returned the follwoing year as newbie collectors or wannabies. Since,I have found that ad fees in these publications has more than tripled in price, but the message is loud and clear.....EXTEND BRASS MODELS TO THE COLLECTOR MARKET. Still I'm put down every time I suggest this, but I witnessed what can happen if done so. To market a product to a rather parsimonius group of folks who are quite happy to run and play with trains no matter what they are made of is tantamount to lunacy. I've been to serious collector shows, and found that folks will collect anything as long as they know about it and literature is available about it. Brass models are works of fine art and are perfect for any collector be it builders, roads, wheel arrangements, named passenger trains, cabeese and so on. Possibly some of these new collectors would eventually want to play with their new toys and become active model railroaders. I have met some who did this exact thing. Anything more is pure speculation, but a darn good possibility. One thing that worked against this collector bit was re-running models...and then lack of serial numbers and date in addition to an information packets with each model. Many of the plastic manufactures do this sans serial numbers, but a model that retails for 4 times as much?
My ten bucks worth....HZ
With BLI and MTH and others coming out with plastic steam of the prototype I model. Brass prices have dropped tremendously on models I need or want. I'm currently doing a sound decoder install on an H9s 2-8-0. The cost of the brass locomotive and Tsunami decoder was still over $100 less than a plastic similar version.
With super magnets available there is no need to remotor old brass. My Westside K5 is weighted heavy and will pull 19 heavy weight passenger cars up grade drawing around 1amp. I really enjoyed dating it with details to a 1937 photos. All my other brass are factory painted. I run my brass. The chrome plated wheels are completely worn to bronze on my MB Awstin F3 2-6-0.
I'm glad brass has become more affordable. I'm setting my sights on a Turbine 6-8-6. I don't need it but would like to have one.
Pete
SeeYou190I know my first brass locomotive was a Tenshodo 0-8-0, but I traded to get that one, it was not a purchase
Kevin, Which one of those beautiful Tenshodo 0-8-0s do you have?
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
dknelsonPlus there was a feeling that buying that first brass locomotive was like pledging a fraternity or smoking and drinking -- your passage from boy to man.
I cannot say for certain which of my brass models I purchased first.
I know my first brass locomotive was a Tenshodo 0-8-0, but I traded to get that one, it was not a purchase.
Always enjoyable to read your posts.
Fascinating thread! I bought a handful of brass items because they were the only available models of the prototypes in which I am interested: Erie RR K-1 Pacific (see my avatar); Gas-electric Doodlebug; 2 cabooses unique to the Erie. These were all bought within the last few years. According to Dan's website, the Pacific and Doodlebug have risen in price and the cabooses have fallen somewhat. Possibly because the two motive power items are quite unique and beautiful models. (They ran OK but I have added decoders and improved the pick-up on the Pacific.) Whether or not they change value over the future is irrelevant to me because I enjoy running and looking at them. Another factor is as we old grayheads pass on, the number of Erie fans who might appreciate these unique models will probably decline also. But that doesn't spoil my fun!
Dante
I have no idea what brass prices were back in 97, my life was pretty tumultuous back then.
Today I have 5 pieces of brass, all bought to run, and the only way to model GN steam that I know of (just something about Belpair fireboxes and flying pumps). All need to be tinkered with to get to run smoothly, and several need painting, but since my current layout consists of a 6' piece of test track- what better way to stay active than to tinker?
Of the 5, I only went overboard pricewise (for my budget) on 1, and it is an 88 model, and probably the biggest disappoint due to its running characteristics. The rest I am completely satisfied with considering what was spent.
There are several folks putting out exquisite models, but at exquisite prices too. Seems that's what happens when only 11 or 16 versions of something get made.
I like older brass....
No for a few reasons:
Bought a Westside SP GS-8 fot $135 in 1973 (full price). According to BLS Inflation calculator, should be worth about $787. Would actually sell for less than half in mint condition.
Investment grade brass is an oxymoron.
Andre
dknelsonThere always was a certain element to buying brass that went beyond "I just need a locomotive to pull my trains."
Back in the 60's everybody that I knew that was buying brass engines was to pull trains not as a investment after all a 2-8-4 could be had for $45.00 about the going price of many steam locomotive kits that paled when compared to a brass steam engine.. Brass diesels from Hallmark,Alco Models and Trains Inc was welcome even though the KMT drive was noisey.
Howard,
I don’t think we are going back to 1990’s prices. I have picked up most (still looking for a couple of things) of what I want that is available in brass in recent years at a steep discount from the heyday prices. I choose brass because modern plastic isn’t available for the models I want.
I still think, as Jim pointed out, that the caboose market will remain strong in brass for the foreseeable future due to the limited options in that category.
The new brass being imported is pretty nice – Key’s Cab forward run of a few years ago is a good example. I almost switched to O scale because of that loco LOL!! I do know that run was expensive and in pretty small numbers.
I think that you are right in that the “brass’ generation is aging out. Most of the older brass models are all over the map in terms of how they run and usually require work to get them up to snuff. I think this aspect may be dampening enthusiasm for older brass among younger modelers.
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
There are no statistics I know of to support this statement but I suspect - and I hope - that relatively few brass locomotives or pieces of rolling stock are thrown away, and by that I mean thrown in the garbage. But I have thrown away commercial model trains, locomotives and cars, into the garbage and I know others who have. Just not worth bothering to sell or give to someone else. If I am correct in this assumption then you have somewhere, someplace on some shelf or in some drawer, about 70 years worth of brass production. And each year the supply of old brass gets bigger. This alone could account for a fall in prices. Do you remember the wonderful old British film "The Man in the White Suit"? Alec Guinness invents a frabric that never wears out or gets dirty. So now all you need is one suit, not a closet full. His invention threatens to destroy the entire fabric industry and make all the workers lose their jobs so he becomes the enemy not the hero as he expected. Well maybe brass is that white suit. It never goes away so eventually it depresses the value of all cloth.
Ironically the ongoing switch from DC to DCC might be playing a role as well. Once DCC became factory installed in new locomotives, you started to see the prices fall on non-DCC equipped stuff at swap meets. Not just Athearn, but Atlas, Stewart, and other good makes. The number of guys with DCC is I bet now much higher than the number of guys who can or do install their own decoders.
I said this might have an "ironic" effect on brass because for a long time the older generation of brass with noisy drives and high amperage motors was not favored and the newer brass with smooth quiet drives and can motors went for high prices. So a guy with an old brass PRR K4 might be very much in the market for the very same engine, just better running. But having to install DCC was a challenge for all brass that wasn't DCC ready (and very little of it was). DCC is sort of an equalizer when it comes to brass perhaps, and the advantage of the new in the better drive and motor means less if it is a barrier to installing DCC. Pure speculation by me, but the drop in cost and value of other locomotives is suggestive of what's happening with brass.
Dave Nelson
I recently purchased my first brass engine, a Van Hobbies CNR K5a Hudson. As with most CN specific steam models, if you want one the only option is brass. It looked great with a beautiful paint job but ran poorly. Luckily there is a fellow in my city who has been working with brass for at least 40 years and he was able to get it running smooth as silk. It had a can motor so with a decoder installed it will creep at speed step 1. I'm on the lookout for another brass engine now. I want to take advantage of his skill while he is still doing this work.
The only CN specific steam model I know of in plastic is a Northern done by True Line Trains. I have one and it is an incredibly well detailed model but this engine had major quality control issues. It took 3 tries before I landed one that ran well.
The price of CN brass is often pushing a grand for some factory painted models.
CN Charlie
The supply and demand principle seem to work here as much as anything. For example, demand for brass D&RGW standard gauge cabooeses seems to be high as that is the only way you can get a correct HO Rio Grande caboose, aside from maybe 3D printing one and adding all the details, painting and decalling etc.
I've managed to expand my brass D&RGW caboose fleet from 6 a few years ago to 9 now by purchasing 3 brass cabooses off of Ebay within the past 1 1/2 years. One I got lucky and bought an unpainted brass ICC EV caboose for $95, but in recent months, unpainted brass D&RGW cabooses seem to get bid up to well over $200 or even over $300. Two painted cabooses I managed on Ebay using the Best Offer function to find out what the dealer wanted rather than having to lose to high bidders. One cost $275 and the other $280, which these days were among the lowest prices I could hope to pay. The other painted D&RGW Overland cabooses I watched on Ebay (quite a few) got bid up to prices in the $450 to $650 range per caboose. About 15 to 20 years ago a new painted Overland Caboose would sell for about $220. Now they seem to, due to demand, get bid up to double or triple that price.
I've never bought any brass engines as they have always been out of my budget. I've seen quite a few come up on Ebay recently - painted D&RGW diesels, but honestly, when I look at the details, usually the plow is wrong. The prices aren't bad all things considered at $4xx - $6xx each, but often plastic end up looking better.
I did score an older Hallmark brass troop car painted as D&RGW mow "bunk car" and it looks reasonable close to the one in my Color Guide book. Paid $128 plus shipping and tax off of fleebay.
Collecting in general is way down. Everyone I know is de cluttering. Even those still collecting are narrowing down what they collect, getting rid of say any kits they will never build, getting rid of cars or engines that are outside their main intrest.
I bought my custom painted United Santa Fe 2-8-0 for $100.00 a great price seeing they have been going for $250.00-500.00. I now have my eyes on another custom painted United Santa Fe 2-8-0 for the same price with a different number.
So,I doubt if brass prices will rebound since the prices continues to plummet.
I'm not sure brass will regain the high price of the 90's.
But brass is still a collector or a very specified market
Modelers who use brass on their layout like them because they often represent specific prototype.
The other problems, is now brass models are everywhere and you can find them at affordable price, because many collection are for sale.
Brass is not a RTR model, they often need tuning, remotoring and are never DCC ready for the model before saying 2005.
This involve some skills to use them and run them; they also often need special job painting.
All these requirements are for a lot of young modelers too much and out of reach ( never say that when you are modeling) for many of them.
When you put, price, need of tuning, paint and maintenance against plastic RTR models, you know the winner in a world where the system try to put only RTR things in our hands and we trash it after use.
Somewhere, I feel brass out of time in 2020, but guys I like them and they are magnificient models with great running capacities.
But because of this kind of has been beside RTR model I'm not sure the price could raise again; new offer on the brass market are marginal and very expensive made in very small run which for me is also a sign of declin of brass models.
They are numerous model of brass with specified models, but I firmly believe they are condamned to dissappear in the future and will be rarely produced because of this has been aspect of such models and all the needs they require to run properly.
Collectors, will still exist but they are not enough to make the market surviving in the future.
But this is just my opinion.
Marc
Just like anything else, the price of brass model engines depends on supply and demand. While the supply side seems to be quite large due to more and more collections hitting the market for "natural" reasons, the demand side seems to be quite moderate by number of interested people. Add to that the forthcoming economic effects of the current crisis and you can give an estimate in which direction prices will travel.
Happy times!
Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)
"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"