I think we've beaten this one to death and then some. Let's play with our brass and plastic...
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
rrebell The only time I have spent over $100 on an engine are for two brass models I own, a Katsumi two cylinder shay and a nakamura (westside import), both for around $200.
The only time I have spent over $100 on an engine are for two brass models I own, a Katsumi two cylinder shay and a nakamura (westside import), both for around $200.
As I have said before, I have a roster of about 140 powered units necessary to protect the schedules on the new ATLANTIC CENTRAL. Set in 1954 the roster is a mix of steam and first generation diesels.
Most of the motive power has been purchased in the last 20 years, and consists mainly of Spectrum/Bachmann (mostly steam), Proto (steam and diesel), BLI (just a few pieces of steam), Genesis (F units), Intermountain (F units) and a few odds and ends, Rivarossi, Mantua, even one IHC, and two heavily kit bashed brass Pacifics. Also some remotored and geared Athearn RDC's.......
No sound, no DCC. The mix is about 50 steam locos and the rest diesel or self propelled passenger.
My dollar cost average price for each powered unit is right around $100 each.
Most are kit bashed in at least some small way, some in a big way. Some needed a little work to run to my standards, a few needed a lot of work (two pieces from BLI).
The highest price paid for any one powered loco, about $350. The highest price paid for a "set" of diesels that run together as one loco, just under $500 for a four unit lashup.
They all run good and look good.
Sheldon
PRR8259 Well, Howard's original question was related to brass model value (or price) now and potential value in the future. What might happen versus what might not. I do not think the sky is falling. Yes, a number of earlier hobbyists or collectors have passed from the active scene, but I think there will be still be some in the future who value the models. There are certain models I'd like to have, that are becoming very hard to find anywhere at any price. So somebody is holding on to them. We just lost a major importer, basically since this thread begain (I believe). Along with them we may be losing the premier current builder...THE best quality builder, generally speaking, building any brass model trains today. People over on other forums are concerned about what model(s) if made might allow the builder to continue. That is the debate elsewhere. For some of us it is all about the models. John
Well, Howard's original question was related to brass model value (or price) now and potential value in the future. What might happen versus what might not. I do not think the sky is falling. Yes, a number of earlier hobbyists or collectors have passed from the active scene, but I think there will be still be some in the future who value the models. There are certain models I'd like to have, that are becoming very hard to find anywhere at any price. So somebody is holding on to them.
We just lost a major importer, basically since this thread begain (I believe). Along with them we may be losing the premier current builder...THE best quality builder, generally speaking, building any brass model trains today. People over on other forums are concerned about what model(s) if made might allow the builder to continue. That is the debate elsewhere.
For some of us it is all about the models.
John
So John,
Howard asked a question, and got an overwhelming "no" from most of those who responed on this forum, which is a a very diverse and crosssectional group of modelers.
Only a few expressed any desire to even buy brass, new releases or old stuff.
That should tell you something.
The masses in this hobby cannot, or will not spend that kind of money given the other choices in the market place.
And some are willing to buy some brass BECAUSE the prices are depressed.
Without getting into the whole "who is a real model railroader" thing, you need to accept that those of us who build models, or kit bash models, don't hold brass in the same vaulted position as you do.
And those who are happy with the other RTR options in the market place likewise see no need to spend $1200 or $2500 on something they can buy for $500 or $700, despite any deminishing return "better quality".
I fit in both of the above, more or less, but I'm not even buying any $700 die cast/plastic locos. I might buy a few more $300/$400 locos, plastic, die cast, brass, or whatever.
If there are two products in any market, and one meets my needs at price X, and a second is "better" by a measure of 20%, but costs 2 times X, few people are going to buy the second product...........
I can't speak to why you have been so "dissatisfied" with all the great models on the market today. In all the years we have discussed model trains I fail to understand your expectations. And if brass makes you happy, go for it.
But supply and demand will drive the market, the handwritting is on the wall.
And I will repeat, I have never considered any model train something I would ever get money back out of. Because I never bought one expecting to ever sell it.
Model train money is like "dinner out" or "vacation" money. Any thought of their future value would destroy the fun I have with them.
PRR8259 Sheldon-- I don't pay people to do stuff just because I'm loaded and I have all kinds of money to give away, but because I lack the TIME/skills/patience/tools/equipment to be able to do that kind of work to the standards I feel the models deserve. I can disassemble, tune drives, and complete some minor repair tasks, but I prefer to stop there, especially as the price point increases. I like to think that I have more respect for the art of the models themselves to NOT ruin them with the quality of work that I would be able to do and have time to do. John
Sheldon--
I don't pay people to do stuff just because I'm loaded and I have all kinds of money to give away, but because I lack the TIME/skills/patience/tools/equipment to be able to do that kind of work to the standards I feel the models deserve. I can disassemble, tune drives, and complete some minor repair tasks, but I prefer to stop there, especially as the price point increases.
I like to think that I have more respect for the art of the models themselves to NOT ruin them with the quality of work that I would be able to do and have time to do.
Well John, I do have the TIME (mostly, and expect to have more soon)/skills/patience/tools/equipment to paint and decal my own models.
And to repair or modifiy them as needed.
I'm not debating the quality of brass, I am saying it does not represent a good VALUE for ME in most cases.
A big part of my interest in model trains is operation and freelance modeling.
I would not be happy with a one each collection of well detailed prototype models from various roads.
My goals include operating 30 staged trains on a 1500 sq ft layout. I NEED 140 powered units for that goal.
I have NO INTEREST in buying and selling trains as a second hobby. I have trains I built at age 13 in 1970. I have nearly every train I ever bought from that age to now.
I respect the craftsmanship of brass, I just don't need to own any of it just for that reason.
I see the model train hobby, and the layout, from a big picture perspective. The layout is the whole, the locos, cars, scenery, are just the parts. They are not the focus.
Howard,
I would not disagree about the durability of brass vs other products. And I will not disagree about potential cost effectiveness if you run them that many hours.
And, I too have my share of retail experiance from those days. From 1970 to 1973 I worked at the Depot Hobby Shop in Severna Park and did the repairs there. I helped the owners there build a diorama of John Brown's Raid when they moved their business to Harpers Ferry.
And from 1974 to 1980 I worked at Glen Burnie Hobby World and managed the train department there.
From 1973 into the mid 80's I was an active member at the Severna Park Model Railroad Club, and have visited your layout several times - thank you for that experiance.
As I have explained before, I likely will not sell my trains, at least not me personally while I am still upright.
I am a freelance/protolance guy, my steam locos are mostly kit bashed and lettered ATLANTIC CENTRAL, except for models of the three prototype roads I model, C&O, B&O and WESTERN MARYLAND.
The two brass locos I have now sport plastic tenders and have been otherwise kitbashed for my needs - I suspect their value has been compromized.........
Understand also that my personal perspective is not from someone entering the hobby, or growing their fleet much at this point. I have most of what I need and want, and I'm not a collector or accumulator.
I only buy models that fit the operational roster desires of the layout.
I have never owned a model of a Big Boy, or an NYC Hudson, or a (fill in a long list of "famous" locos).
My fleet is boring, multiple copies of a short list to create a realistic roster for the ATLANTIC CENTRAL. Example - I have nine Spectrum USRA Heavy Mountains, I can't even think about the work in finding nine brass ones.....let alone the cost. Even at bargin prices it would likely be 4 or 5 times what I have invested, and I bet I don't wear out those nine I have in the rest of my life time........
Big DISCLAIMER - also, I do not use DCC and do not like onboard sound, so as stated earlier, if I did buy a few more pieces of vintage brass like my two United USRA Pacifics, I would tune them and paint them myself. And the current prices of Broadway, MTH, or Athearn steam is of no concern to me, I'm not buying. I'm more likely to buy old brass.........or other new old stock.
I'm not a serial ownership kind of guy. I don't buy things, hold them for a while, then sell them off - profit or loss.
And, I have no more interest in making my hobby also a business.
I have built a number of layouts, and I am about to start what I hope to be the last one. It has a very carefully constructed theme which has not changed for several decades.
You may have missed a few key points:
I actually have completely disassembled, stripped and painted a brass model. It was an Overland Models L&HR/CR Alco C-420. The end result was...not good at all. Jolute at Diesel Consignment took if off my hands, and I basically swore that I would never do that kind of destruction to another fine brass model again. Unfortunately, he had difficulty selling it. It wasn't totally terrible, but it wasn't good either.
It's not a matter of the "circle" of people that I belong to or aspire to belong to, because I'm emotionally needy. This is not some great "IN" club or fraternity that won't accept you if you don't own brass. If durable models could be made from a dead yak, to paraphrase other comments Howard made elsewhere, I'd buy the durable yak-bone model.
However, I've dabbled enough, actually, in plastic, to be underwhelmed by it, and I don't need a massive fleet of anything, I only need a few, a relative handful actually.
At least the brass models are not made of gold (it wouldn't hold up so well to handling).
I probably would prefer stainless steel more, but it would be very difficult to achieve the same level of details.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL And to offer a few thoughts here. Everything you just said is likely true and valid. But you are talking about a group of modelers/consumers that are a special sub group in this hobby. I don't "pay" anyone to work on or paint my model trains, I don't know very many modelers who do. I know, I run in different circles than you. So if I bought that vintage WESTERN MARYAND Pacific or B&O B18 that I want, I would tune it up, remotor it if necessary and paint it myself. Our "OP" Howard is a unique person in this hobby, he is a craftsman of the highest order and a collector and admirer of brass. The fact that there is so much unpainted, never/hardly ran, very old (20 to 50 years) brass on the market suggests that a fair percentage is/was bought by collectors, not by active modelers using it on layouts. I'm not in that hobby........ Sheldon
And to offer a few thoughts here.
Everything you just said is likely true and valid.
But you are talking about a group of modelers/consumers that are a special sub group in this hobby.
I don't "pay" anyone to work on or paint my model trains, I don't know very many modelers who do. I know, I run in different circles than you.
So if I bought that vintage WESTERN MARYAND Pacific or B&O B18 that I want, I would tune it up, remotor it if necessary and paint it myself.
Our "OP" Howard is a unique person in this hobby, he is a craftsman of the highest order and a collector and admirer of brass.
The fact that there is so much unpainted, never/hardly ran, very old (20 to 50 years) brass on the market suggests that a fair percentage is/was bought by collectors, not by active modelers using it on layouts.
I'm not in that hobby........
ATLANTIC CENTRAL PRR8259 To address the OP question posed by Howard Zane: I've been brass shopping hard and comparing prices of what is actually available to be purchased. Right now, it appears that one could answer "it depends". There are a lot of lesser valued or lesser priced brass models available for sale in the marketplace. However, they may require regearing, remotoring and a paint job, plus many folks would want DCC. Till all that work is completed nowadays, that would easily add $500 or more to the price of any of them, and I can see that some buyers won't want to buy a $195 or $250 engine to then put $500 more into it. So that may be why some of them don't sell or rather are lingering in online website inventories. At the other end of the spectrum there are many $1000 and up models that seem to be actually in very short supply. Some of them sell literally as soon as they get listed, within hours. People over on other forums are actually making statements like there is nothing available that they want to buy. That may reflect the realization that the lesser priced models may require "too much work" or "too much investment" to upgrade to what is expected today. So if the model falls into the "later" or "better" group and is heavily detailed, well, yes it seems they are increasing in value. This still seems to include some of the more scarce Crown models. Other Crown models that are perceived as "very common" have dropped in value recently. John And to offer a few thoughts here. Everything you just said is likely true and valid. But you are talking about a group of modelers/consumers that are a special sub group in this hobby. I don't "pay" anyone to work on or paint my model trains, I don't know very many modelers who do. I know, I run in different circles than you. So if I bought that vintage WESTERN MARYAND Pacific or B&O B18 that I want, I would tune it up, remotor it if necessary and paint it myself. Our "OP" Howard is a unique person in this hobby, he is a craftsman of the highest order and a collector and admirer of brass. The fact that there is so much unpainted, never/hardly ran, very old (20 to 50 years) brass on the market suggests that a fair percentage is/was bought by collectors, not by active modelers using it on layouts. I'm not in that hobby........ Sheldon, Many thanks for compliments, but I'm more of an accumulator of brass models rather than being a collector.I also play with my brass toys running only brass on my pike. I have found that even the older Japanese brass models can be made to run quite well for several lifetimes and then some...of course with the help of Jan Willard....the finest brass guy I have ever known. I have had *** cats knock brass models to the concrete floor resulting in serious damage like broken detail bent pilots, boilers, cab roofs, tender shells, etc, but always fixable to almost new condition. A plastic/cast model.....usually terminal!! When I owned a train store for two years, I ran on my display layout a United PRR K-4 for over 1000 hours with nary a problem other then plating wearing from drivers....not a problem, just had to clean them more often. Plastic counterparts....30 to 100 hours of constant running would do them in. Granted this was 45 years ago, but the message is loud and clear. Cost efficiency? A new plastic or cast model and all hybrids are now in the $500-$750 range (steam). an older brass model can be bought in the $300 range and then equipped with full DCC, remotored, all lights added with working markers, cab and firebox lights for another $350 and now in the same price range of a new plastic/die cast offering. The main difference is the inherent quality of the hand made brass which to me and countless others are works of art vs. a mass procduced plastic toy in runs of several thousands. I sure do not want to put down plastic/cast steamers as the initial outlay is far less than brass and many just like operations not caring what the loco is made of. Years or whatever down the pike, you will sell your choo choos. Brass models will hold most of their value with some actually appreciating, but quite rare in today's market. If you don't care, your surving family will after you depart. Check out what Forrest Nace is doing with older brass. He has sold quite a few from exactly what I'm talking about. Those who know me will vouch that I began wih one brass model in 1962, traded and traded still again. I purchased more models with the then small profits I made and all while I was in the military for for a mess of years. By late 90's my "accumulation" of brass locos had taken over my house. I had two almost complete PFM Crown collections which helped me finance my two kids 12 years of college between them when sold for then a sizeable profit. I could have not done this with plastic/cast models. When I retired in 1986 after selling my business, I became a brass dealer (Piermont Division which I sold to Dan Glasure with my web address as brasstrains.com) During the years from 1986 to 2005, I erked out a rather nice income while having a ball. Age caught up and Dan was half of my age and full of ambition and a willingnesss to learn besides being a great business man with old world ethics rarely seen today in folks his age. enough!! I guess it boils down to.....purchase what you like and enjoy. That is what the hobby is about. HZ
PRR8259 To address the OP question posed by Howard Zane: I've been brass shopping hard and comparing prices of what is actually available to be purchased. Right now, it appears that one could answer "it depends". There are a lot of lesser valued or lesser priced brass models available for sale in the marketplace. However, they may require regearing, remotoring and a paint job, plus many folks would want DCC. Till all that work is completed nowadays, that would easily add $500 or more to the price of any of them, and I can see that some buyers won't want to buy a $195 or $250 engine to then put $500 more into it. So that may be why some of them don't sell or rather are lingering in online website inventories. At the other end of the spectrum there are many $1000 and up models that seem to be actually in very short supply. Some of them sell literally as soon as they get listed, within hours. People over on other forums are actually making statements like there is nothing available that they want to buy. That may reflect the realization that the lesser priced models may require "too much work" or "too much investment" to upgrade to what is expected today. So if the model falls into the "later" or "better" group and is heavily detailed, well, yes it seems they are increasing in value. This still seems to include some of the more scarce Crown models. Other Crown models that are perceived as "very common" have dropped in value recently. John
To address the OP question posed by Howard Zane:
I've been brass shopping hard and comparing prices of what is actually available to be purchased.
Right now, it appears that one could answer "it depends".
There are a lot of lesser valued or lesser priced brass models available for sale in the marketplace. However, they may require regearing, remotoring and a paint job, plus many folks would want DCC. Till all that work is completed nowadays, that would easily add $500 or more to the price of any of them, and I can see that some buyers won't want to buy a $195 or $250 engine to then put $500 more into it. So that may be why some of them don't sell or rather are lingering in online website inventories.
At the other end of the spectrum there are many $1000 and up models that seem to be actually in very short supply. Some of them sell literally as soon as they get listed, within hours. People over on other forums are actually making statements like there is nothing available that they want to buy. That may reflect the realization that the lesser priced models may require "too much work" or "too much investment" to upgrade to what is expected today.
So if the model falls into the "later" or "better" group and is heavily detailed, well, yes it seems they are increasing in value. This still seems to include some of the more scarce Crown models.
Other Crown models that are perceived as "very common" have dropped in value recently.
Sheldon,
Many thanks for compliments, but I'm more of an accumulator of brass models rather than being a collector.I also play with my brass toys running only brass on my pike. I have found that even the older Japanese brass models can be made to run quite well for several lifetimes and then some...of course with the help of Jan Willard....the finest brass guy I have ever known. I have had *** cats knock brass models to the concrete floor resulting in serious damage like broken detail bent pilots, boilers, cab roofs, tender shells, etc, but always fixable to almost new condition. A plastic/cast model.....usually terminal!!
When I owned a train store for two years, I ran on my display layout a United PRR K-4 for over 1000 hours with nary a problem other then plating wearing from drivers....not a problem, just had to clean them more often. Plastic counterparts....30 to 100 hours of constant running would do them in. Granted this was 45 years ago, but the message is loud and clear. Cost efficiency? A new plastic or cast model and all hybrids are now in the $500-$750 range (steam). an older brass model can be bought in the $300 range and then equipped with full DCC, remotored, all lights added with working markers, cab and firebox lights for another $350 and now in the same price range of a new plastic/die cast offering. The main difference is the inherent quality of the hand made brass which to me and countless others are works of art vs. a mass procduced plastic toy in runs of several thousands. I sure do not want to put down plastic/cast steamers as the initial outlay is far less than brass and many just like operations not caring what the loco is made of. Years or whatever down the pike, you will sell your choo choos. Brass models will hold most of their value with some actually appreciating, but quite rare in today's market. If you don't care, your surving family will after you depart.
Check out what Forrest Nace is doing with older brass. He has sold quite a few from exactly what I'm talking about.
Those who know me will vouch that I began wih one brass model in 1962, traded and traded still again. I purchased more models with the then small profits I made and all while I was in the military for for a mess of years. By late 90's my "accumulation" of brass locos had taken over my house. I had two almost complete PFM Crown collections which helped me finance my two kids 12 years of college between them when sold for then a sizeable profit. I could have not done this with plastic/cast models. When I retired in 1986 after selling my business, I became a brass dealer (Piermont Division which I sold to Dan Glasure with my web address as brasstrains.com) During the years from 1986 to 2005, I erked out a rather nice income while having a ball. Age caught up and Dan was half of my age and full of ambition and a willingnesss to learn besides being a great business man with old world ethics rarely seen today in folks his age. enough!!
I guess it boils down to.....purchase what you like and enjoy. That is what the hobby is about.
HZ
I have one brass engine, an Ajin NW-5 with a very nice drive.If somebody made one in plastic I'd sell the brass one like a shot.I want a model that looks good and runs well, and I don't care if it's made of brass, zamac, plastic, or earwax.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
PRR8259 Sheldon-- If diecasting a boiler, and not using lead (which flows easier and better fills the molds than zinc does), since model companies tried to go for safety, by removing the lead, the running boards have to be thicker than scale. On the few Bowser locos that had "thinner looking" running boards, they were separately applied brass parts. Where the running boards are cast on, they are usually thicker. It's true with BLI as well as MTH, as well as others. Maybe MTH errs on the side of slightly thicker--but some of their engines also came from Lionel, and as such the boilers were designed by Lionel (4-6-6-4) and those fat running boards are NOT MTH's design at all. BLI Y-6B 2-8-8-2: nice engine, I've owned two, also fat cast-on running boards. John
If diecasting a boiler, and not using lead (which flows easier and better fills the molds than zinc does), since model companies tried to go for safety, by removing the lead, the running boards have to be thicker than scale. On the few Bowser locos that had "thinner looking" running boards, they were separately applied brass parts. Where the running boards are cast on, they are usually thicker.
It's true with BLI as well as MTH, as well as others. Maybe MTH errs on the side of slightly thicker--but some of their engines also came from Lionel, and as such the boilers were designed by Lionel (4-6-6-4) and those fat running boards are NOT MTH's design at all.
BLI Y-6B 2-8-8-2: nice engine, I've owned two, also fat cast-on running boards.
Yes, and so I would rather have closer to scale size plastic applied running boards, like my Bachmann Spectrum 4-8-2's and 2-10-2's which have cast metal boilers.
Or, plastic boilers with finer scale details and a metal drive and weights like many of my other locomotives.
And I renew my opinion that Scalecoat paint looks the same on any surface, and I would submit that many people, be they brass fans or not, have never considered whether or not details are actually to scale or are oversized.
You may not think the factory finishes on many plastic models are realistic, or as good looking as the finishes on many brass models. And you may be right.
That is a separate issue from actual "detail level".
Decades ago there was a widely held view that if fine details were too oversized they might be better left off the model depending on their visual importance.
John, I'm not anti brass, I'm just not pro brass over other construction methods.
Again, I have no problem with fragile models. I don't handle my models unnecessarily, and I don't drag them around town to other layouts on a regular basis.
rrebell ATLANTIC CENTRAL PRR8259 Understood, and that is great when you can do that. I'm actually going the other way and considering buying some brass freight cars, partly because I'm not happy with the relative fragility of some of the plastic ones. Also many people will buy a brass caboose to get the one that is correct for their particular railroad, and yet some of those people would not buy a brass loco. John It may be my personality, or how I was raised, or my borderline OCD, or my introvertedness, but I have never had a problem with fragile models, they are after all, 1/87th scale models. I will take the fragile details of a Bachmann Spectrum or Proto 2000 model any day over the clunky oversized cast metal details on some MTH models........ But that's just me. Sheldon Some of the MTH stuff has close to scale rabs ect. now. I have hoppers and one diesel from them, fine details, don't know about their early stuff.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL PRR8259 Understood, and that is great when you can do that. I'm actually going the other way and considering buying some brass freight cars, partly because I'm not happy with the relative fragility of some of the plastic ones. Also many people will buy a brass caboose to get the one that is correct for their particular railroad, and yet some of those people would not buy a brass loco. John It may be my personality, or how I was raised, or my borderline OCD, or my introvertedness, but I have never had a problem with fragile models, they are after all, 1/87th scale models. I will take the fragile details of a Bachmann Spectrum or Proto 2000 model any day over the clunky oversized cast metal details on some MTH models........ But that's just me. Sheldon
PRR8259 Understood, and that is great when you can do that. I'm actually going the other way and considering buying some brass freight cars, partly because I'm not happy with the relative fragility of some of the plastic ones. Also many people will buy a brass caboose to get the one that is correct for their particular railroad, and yet some of those people would not buy a brass loco. John
Understood, and that is great when you can do that.
I'm actually going the other way and considering buying some brass freight cars, partly because I'm not happy with the relative fragility of some of the plastic ones.
Also many people will buy a brass caboose to get the one that is correct for their particular railroad, and yet some of those people would not buy a brass loco.
It may be my personality, or how I was raised, or my borderline OCD, or my introvertedness, but I have never had a problem with fragile models, they are after all, 1/87th scale models.
I will take the fragile details of a Bachmann Spectrum or Proto 2000 model any day over the clunky oversized cast metal details on some MTH models........
But that's just me.
Some of the MTH stuff has close to scale rabs ect. now. I have hoppers and one diesel from them, fine details, don't know about their early stuff.
I'm talking about stuff like steam loco running boards cast onto a metal boiler that are a scale foot thick.
From what I have seen their rolling stock looks fine.
Their diesels seem just OK, MTH and Broadway seem to go for handling durability over exact scale fineness in many cases on locomotives.
For that kind of money I want a better scale model, not a tinny speaker playing station announcements.
I was at the November, 2019, Brass Expo held near Lancaster, PA, as was Howard, and Adam Pomeranz, and I can assure you the people that were actually there were friendly to the guests attending the show. I heard and saw no evidence of anybody "talking down" to anybody else. However, it was snowing and attendance could have been better than it was. That can always happen.
My friend Sean and I, and my son Johnny, had a good time, and were only limited by our available funds at the time. There were things I wanted to buy, and there were models changing hands.
I would not let a past negative experience dissuade me from attending. In the past I learned a lot at those shows. I was able to meet some of the people who actually assemble the research packages needed to build these wonderful models (Jim Walsh) and hear some of their stories.
dirtyd79 SeeYou190 Most conventions I attend are Wargaming, Cosplay, or "Comiconish" in nature. These are always a blast, people are having a ton of fun, and any poor outsider that mistakenly wanders in will quickly be recruited to become one of the group. He will get a Mario Hat on his head, dice in one hand, a beer in the other, and the next thing he knows is he is commanding the Republican Guard in the Battle of Waterloo. -Kevin That's the kind of atmosphere model train shows and clubs should be trying to create to get people into the hobby rather than grumpy old men who act like you're actually inconveniencing them by coming to buy stuff they're selling and snobs who shun people or talk down to them for asking questions. If that's what a brass model convention is like I'm glad I've avoided them all these years.
SeeYou190 Most conventions I attend are Wargaming, Cosplay, or "Comiconish" in nature. These are always a blast, people are having a ton of fun, and any poor outsider that mistakenly wanders in will quickly be recruited to become one of the group. He will get a Mario Hat on his head, dice in one hand, a beer in the other, and the next thing he knows is he is commanding the Republican Guard in the Battle of Waterloo. -Kevin
-Kevin
The real reason I bought brass in the past was the detail, now I can get it in plastic for much cheaper. Wanted some hoppers and was able to buy MTH ones for around $15, the brass ones were $70 plus and not painted.
Yes, I built a modest layout that is designed to show off the trains. Passing sidings are along the wall to not block the view of trains from the front. All track is Kato, now, with the factory superelevated curved track and superelevated transition sections used where I could get them and fit them. All turnouts are Kato #6. I just ripped out the Peco turnouts (along with Walthers/Shinohara and Atlas track) because Peco cheated on the frog angle to 12-degrees, which is sharper than #5 and derails some steam power. Yes for me it is all about the trains themselves, and even the individual models.
The scenery is just there to give a flavor of open spaces, mostly desert.
I'm minimalist on scenery--I'm trying to capture the immensity of railroading with a long mainline run through rural western America.
Yes, again, it's all about the trains themselves (and not taking more of the basement than my wife wanted to allow at the time).
My son wants to run one big train with a Challenger (or future Big Boy) and let it roll. He wants 70 car trains (we are at 50+ now and way beyond siding capacity). I run the little brass engines when he's not around.
PRR8259 Kevin-- I'm very sorry to read of your experience at that particular Expo. For the record I currently only have two brass steam engines on hand (others out for sale). My 13 year old son also has two big non-brass challengers. I understand the need or desire of some to be in both worlds. In my case, I'm trying to encourage one boy to still love trains. Whatever that takes. With freight cars, he calls the shots, and if he doesn't like it, it's gone. It's not about how many you have. My interest would be more what it is that you have? And do you love it? One of my engines is specially customized to represent GN F-8 2-8-0 #1215 late in its career. It is one of only 2 models. The painter guy has the other one, which also still has PFM sound in it. They have the tender from a GN L-1 articulated, which is neat, and footboard pilot. Oh, and he might have changed a pipe run on the engine from standard Tenshodo as built. It also has a can motor and 48:1 gearbox, because it was built to run really slow. It can do my curves, and it is staying. I would never look down on somebody for having one model. There are some people who only have a couple models but they might be amazing DM&IR yellowstones or Northern Pacific Z-5 yellowstones or what have you. It's your railroad. Some people have switching module layouts with many turnouts and all kinds of switching possibilities and only need a couple engines. My next (downsized) layout, after kids are gone, will likely be a point-to-point in the next house. I won't need the big continuous run anymore. I will still want to play with choo choos, but also desire to leave the wife something that can be easily removed and liquidated when that time comes and I am gone. Then there's a big time collector in Germany who just did this amazing rebuild of a Precision Scale N&W Z1b 2-6-6-2 all himself, fixing all the problems and illuminating everything. He has a whole fleet of articulateds, but no layout at all. It appears he runs them across some cabinet tops on a single long straight test track. It's neatly done and it works for him. I actually admire how nice and simple his long test track is and doesn't detract from the room in his home. I would never dare to criticize him for not having a layout, because he can do rebuild work at a high level I've rarely ever seen. John
Kevin--
I'm very sorry to read of your experience at that particular Expo.
For the record I currently only have two brass steam engines on hand (others out for sale). My 13 year old son also has two big non-brass challengers. I understand the need or desire of some to be in both worlds. In my case, I'm trying to encourage one boy to still love trains. Whatever that takes. With freight cars, he calls the shots, and if he doesn't like it, it's gone.
It's not about how many you have. My interest would be more what it is that you have? And do you love it?
One of my engines is specially customized to represent GN F-8 2-8-0 #1215 late in its career. It is one of only 2 models. The painter guy has the other one, which also still has PFM sound in it. They have the tender from a GN L-1 articulated, which is neat, and footboard pilot. Oh, and he might have changed a pipe run on the engine from standard Tenshodo as built. It also has a can motor and 48:1 gearbox, because it was built to run really slow. It can do my curves, and it is staying.
I would never look down on somebody for having one model. There are some people who only have a couple models but they might be amazing DM&IR yellowstones or Northern Pacific Z-5 yellowstones or what have you.
It's your railroad. Some people have switching module layouts with many turnouts and all kinds of switching possibilities and only need a couple engines. My next (downsized) layout, after kids are gone, will likely be a point-to-point in the next house. I won't need the big continuous run anymore. I will still want to play with choo choos, but also desire to leave the wife something that can be easily removed and liquidated when that time comes and I am gone.
Then there's a big time collector in Germany who just did this amazing rebuild of a Precision Scale N&W Z1b 2-6-6-2 all himself, fixing all the problems and illuminating everything. He has a whole fleet of articulateds, but no layout at all. It appears he runs them across some cabinet tops on a single long straight test track. It's neatly done and it works for him. I actually admire how nice and simple his long test track is and doesn't detract from the room in his home. I would never dare to criticize him for not having a layout, because he can do rebuild work at a high level I've rarely ever seen.
Wow, If I was worried about what happens to the layout when I'm gone, I would just sell it all now. She can just let it sit there in the basement and let the kids deal with it.
The will is going to say "being of sound mind and body we spent it all" so at least they can sell off the trains.
But you comments say a lot otherwise as well.
Clearly for you it is just about the trains, especially the locos.
For people like me it is not really about any one "piece" of equipment, it is about the miniature world, the scenery, the operation, the layout, taken as a whole.
Sure, I want the pieces to be good representations of their prototypes, but the most important thing is the big view, the overall effect, for modelers and non modelers alike.
So that's why well executed Bachmann steamers and Athearn passenger cars are close enough.........And that is why it takes so many, to capture the immensity of the prototype.
Then there's a big time collector in Germany who just did this amazing rebuild of a Precision Scale N&W Z1b 2-6-6-2 all himself, fixing all the problems and illuminating everything. He has a whole fleet of articulateds, but no layout at all. It appears he runs them across some cabinet tops on a single long straight test track. It's neatly done and it works for him. I actually admire how nice and simple his long test track is and doesn't detract from the room in his home. I would never dare to criticize him for not having a layout, because he can do rebuild work at a high level I've rarely ever seen. He posts photos and videos over on facebook, and the rest of us drool over the beautiful workmanship and the models themselves.
PRR8259 I have a photographer friend who is always trying to photograph the old equipment before it's scrapped, venturing in past years to the Altoona deadlines and dragging me along to some of those places. Even trashed out engines still sometimes retain a shine to the paint finish, at least in the non rusty areas. Most modelers way overdo the weathering especially to dead flat, which you seldom see in real life. John
I have a photographer friend who is always trying to photograph the old equipment before it's scrapped, venturing in past years to the Altoona deadlines and dragging me along to some of those places.
Even trashed out engines still sometimes retain a shine to the paint finish, at least in the non rusty areas.
Most modelers way overdo the weathering especially to dead flat, which you seldom see in real life.
As a Scalecoat user, I clearcoat my already glossy models with a mix of their clear flat and clear gloss to get a satin or semigloss finish, then just add some "dirt" lightly with the airbrush.
Yes real trains are painted with gloss paint, models should reflect that to some degree in most cases.
Even trashed out engines still sometimes retain a shine to the paint finish, at least in the non-rusty areas.
I agree it should always be subtle.
Bob Hunter was amazing at it.
Howard Zane uses a powdered graphite weathering technique that is also pretty subtle and captures the look of steam power from the era when they washed and rubbed down engines with oily cotton waste (ie well before the end of steam when nothing was clean).
There are actually quite a number of fine older brass models that are only worth $195 to $250 now. Some have good gearboxes, though little noisy, and may or may not have open frame motors. The dealers think nobody wants them, and are sitting on some of them. Knowing what I know now, I would buy some of them and get them painted.
When I worked for a certain diecast train company, they ran the engines with open frame motors for 50 hours on the store layout to break them in before returning them to a customer (assuming the customer made any good faith attempt to assemble the kit, the company would finish the model for them, and return it running very well).
I have seen older brass engines with open frame motors that the model ran great and even quietly. I would have no problem buying one of them again if I saw one. There's models I want that are now dirt cheap, but either they were used up and thrown away in the last 50 years, or they are lingering in inventory somewhere not being listed for sale (as some are privately telling me).
PRR8259 The one painter, now in his 70's and "semi-retired" insists on weathering everything just a little bit. He is very subtle with that, and his work looks amazing (all air brushed, no chalks). However, I put a gorgeous diesel he did for me next to a new steam engine, and that did it. I was hooked on steam again. It wasn't his fault at all. The other painter, who is now 28 years older than me and thinning his personal collection before his expiration date comes up, knows his son doesn't like brass and will only get pennies on the dollar for it. I am buying what I can from him, that I want. He is regearing, remotoring, and painting engines acquired over a lifetime, and selling them while he can get what they are worth, and actually he gives some of the money to charity.
The one painter, now in his 70's and "semi-retired" insists on weathering everything just a little bit. He is very subtle with that, and his work looks amazing (all air brushed, no chalks). However, I put a gorgeous diesel he did for me next to a new steam engine, and that did it. I was hooked on steam again. It wasn't his fault at all.
The other painter, who is now 28 years older than me and thinning his personal collection before his expiration date comes up, knows his son doesn't like brass and will only get pennies on the dollar for it. I am buying what I can from him, that I want. He is regearing, remotoring, and painting engines acquired over a lifetime, and selling them while he can get what they are worth, and actually he gives some of the money to charity.
I too am very much a "light weathering" kind of guy. I am very much into the theory that our models are small and therefor always viewed from "afar". So things like weathering should be done to reflect how things would look from 200 or 300 feet away in real life.
Even the rusty crap that CSX runs near my house these days looks pretty clean and good from 300 feet away.