The Joy of Installing Hand Grab Irons

[SeeYou190]

When painting the replacement grab irons it is best to use a color slightly lighter than the body color to simulate sunlight refliecting off of the protruding elements.

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This helps on non-replacement grab irons also.

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-Kevin

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[doctorwayne]

And thank you, Tim, for your kind comment.

Wayne

[CapnCrunch]

Many thanks to Doctor Wayne and Mike for the thorough explanations.  Doctor Wayne, the detailing on your models is remarkable...the cars are truly works-of-art.

Tim

[doctorwayne]

CapnCrunch

Thanks to everyone for this very informative thread!  Since this is all new to me, I have a few basic questions. 

1.  If the holes are drilled all the way through the car body, do the ends of the grab rails protrude beyond the inside wall or are the rails just the right length so they can be mounted flush with the inside wall?

On closed cars - boxcars, reefers, passenger cars, etc., the wire protrudes into the carbody.  I put a styrene spacer strip, .030" or .040" thick, between the outer sides of the car and the grabirons - use a piece narrower than the grabirons' width, because if the spacer is touching the wire where it protrudes into the car, the ca may wick-out along the wire, cementing the spacer to the car's side.

With the spacer in place, I put a finger of my free hand on the grabirons, pushing them tight against the spacer, then, using an old #11 blade in my X-Acto, bend-over the portion of the grabirons which protrude into the car.  With the grabirons still held tight to the spacer, I apply ca to the bent-over wire inside the car.

The procedure is the same for open cars, such as gondolas and hoppers, but once the ca has hardened, the knife blade can be used to re-straighten the bent-over portion of wire, then re-bent and straightened a couple of times until the excess wire fatigues and breaks off.

Here are a couple of scratchbuilt gondolas built on Tichy flatcars...

CapnCrunch

2.  In either case, how do you deal with the holes or protrusions that can be seen on the inside of a gondola? 

I many cases, I've left them in place, but eventually went back and did the procedure mentioned above.

CapnCrunch

3.  Some of the rails are bent down 90 degrees.  Do you make those bends before inserting the grab rails or after they have been installed?

Thanks,

Tim  

You can buy the drop-style grabirons, along with the straight ones, from Tichy, along with some other styles rendered in plastic.
Tichy also offers phosphor-bronze wire in various thicknesses, if you wish to bend your own - some cars require non-standard widths.

There's some info HERE on bending your own grabirons.

This Red Caboose boxcar (and two others modelled with the same number, differing only in their re-weigh dates and weathering) are modelled on a real car which I used as an example to add the details necessary to create a standard PRR X-29 boxcar that had been modified into an express car suitable for use in high-speed passenger and express trains.  Such cars had a totally different schedule of safety appliances than regular freight cars...

I also replaced all of the plastic free-standing grabirons on my Proto2000 stockcars...

...and tank cars...

I made 8 of these heavily modified Athearn Blue Box boxcars, which use a non-standard width for the side grabirons...

...and this Accurail reefer was backdated by shaving-off the cast-on ladders and grabirons, replacing them with metal ones...

This old MDC covered hopper, along with several similar cars, was upgraded with hatches and outlet details from Bowser, then all of the very heavy cast-on grabirons were removed and replaced with wire...

I have a few more of those to do, and perhaps 50 or 60 open hoppers needing the same grabiron replacements, before all cars have been upgraded.

Wayne

[SeeYou190]

hon30critter

I know that you do a lot of work, but that still seems like a lot of broken drills.

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Dave... Three reasons for broken drill bits.

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1) A lot of resin car kits have the holes for the grabs irons lined up nearly even with the inside thckness of the car end. When this is drilled, the drill will either grab awkwardly into the end casting and snap, or it well bend into the void and snap. The way these kits are made it is not possible to cast a lip onto the inside of the car end to prevent this. Drilling corner grabs in the roof can have the same result.

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2) Just plain recklessness... I have so darned many drill bits that I know I will not run out, so I do a lot of stunts that I know will probably break the bit, but it does not matter, I have plenty. When I start to run low I will become more careful. Right now there are no consequences for carelessness.

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3) My right arm has nerve damage, and sometimes I shake or tremor, and there goes another #78 drill bit into the trash.

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-Kevin

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[mbinsewi]

Yes, the holes go through the car body, what I do is after the holes are drilled, and the grab irons are in the holes, I use a piece of styrene, usually .04 thickness, to set the depth of the grabs, than bend the back side over against the car body, and glue, with CA from the back.

I get mine here:

https://www.tichytraingroup.com/Shop/tabid/91/c/grabirons/Default.aspx

You can get straight or the drop type (the ones you refer to as "bent down 90 degrees).

On a gondola, since you can clearly see the inside surface, I use the CA to glue the grabs in place, and then trim off the ends that stick inside the car, and maybe cover with a paint match to the gondola, if they show at all.

Hopefully Dr. Wayne will see this, and amaze you with some of his grab iron work.

Mike.

[CapnCrunch]

Thanks to everyone for this very informative thread!  Since this is all new to me, I have a few basic questions. 

1.  If the holes are drilled all the way through the car body, do the ends of the grab rails protrude beyond the inside wall or are the rails just the right length so they can be mounted flush with the inside wall?

2.  In either case, how do you deal with the holes or protrusions that can be seen on the inside of a gondola?

3.  Some of the rails are bent down 90 degrees.  Do you make those bends before inserting the grab rails or after they have been installed?

Thanks,

Tim 

[JPD]

trwroute, I like your approach for painting the grab irons and will try it next time.

And thanks everyone for the suggestions, a lot to digest and consider.

[hon30critter]

maxman

Is that a 3 or 4 jaw chuck?

Good question! I don't know.

I will test it as soon as I get it and if it doesn't work as hoped I will return it.

Ed makes a good point about it being a direct drive. If I lower the speed enough to make it useable as a powered pin vice, it may not have enough torque to do anything.

I bought it through Amazon so, as I said, I can return it. They even pay the return shipping in most cases.

Dave

Edit:

I decided to cancel the order based on the fact that there was no reduction gearing.

Dave

[SeeYou190]

gmpullman

Although handy for some things, drilling a #78 hole is not one of them.

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The smallest hole I drill with the 4.8 volt Dremel tool would be #65 which is about 0.033" I think.

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I don't have a steady enough hand to try and drill #78 with any power tool.

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-Kevin

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[gmpullman]

Still, the nice thing about the General Tool is the geared reduction to 100 RPM.

The specs on those little motors are such:

Specifications:
Material: Metal + Electronic Component
Power Consumption: DC 12V / 500mA
Collet Inner Diameter: 0.5mm, 1.0mm, 1.5mm, 2.5mm, 3.0mm
Drill Diameter: 0.5mm, 1.0mm, 1.5mm, 2.5mm, 3.0mm
Torsion: 530g/cm
No Load Speed: 12000rpm
Load Speed: 8000rpm

Some have collets, others four-jaw and it looks like the one Dave linked to has a three jaw.

I've got several Dremel-type tools, 110V. corded, cordless and the flex shaft one. Although handy for some things, drilling a #78 hole is not one of them. I don't see where those direct-drive motor shaft tools would be any better than a Dremel.

Just last night I made six holes, #42 drill, in the floor of a brass passenger car. The General drill bore down and a nice hole was made in about 30 seconds.

There is a little slop in the gear reduction but for $15. I'm not going to complain.

I just bought a second one to use as they market it, as a power screwdriver.

---

 

Here's a similar model to the one Dave shows but it includes a variable speed power supply. Still pretty high RPM for drilling, though.

https://tinyurl.com/uju62r4 

 

Cheers, Ed

[maxman]

hon30critter

so I have ordered one of these. It is 12 volts so I'm hoping that I can use a train set power supply to control the speed:

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B082RC9169/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Dave

Is that a 3 or 4 jaw chuck?

[SeeYou190]

For drilling small holes, I have had good success with the Dremel 4.8 volt cordless moto-tool.

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It is weak and worthless for any real work, but it is slow and weak enough to make it suitable for small drills and soft metal.

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It still runs too fast for plastic and resin, I drill those by hand.

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For about $20.00 it is a good buy, but it has lmited uses.

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-Kevin

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[hon30critter]

gmpullman

One of the best tools I have ever added to my micro-drilling arsenal is this General Tools screw driver converted with a drill chuck:

Ed got me inspired by showing his powered micro drill so I went looking for one for myself. As he mentioned, matching a chuck to a cordless driver seems to be a bit of a challenge, so I have ordered one of these. It is 12 volts so I'm hoping that I can use a train set power supply to control the speed:

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B082RC9169/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Dave

[doctorwayne]

gmpullman

...No more email notifications that a PM has arrived...

Yeah, I think that the PM notification has pretty-well died.

I got a small 4-jaw chuck from MicroMark that snaps right into my cordless DeWalt impact driver.  It accepts drill bits from #80 to #58-or-so.

To use it, I open the centre drawer in my work desk, and rest my hand and the driver in it, then use my free hand to feed the work-piece to the bit.  The variable speed offers control good enough for drilling plastics, but I usually use it for drilling metal.

Wayne

[gmpullman]

maxman

Normally I get a message stating such, but I guess the forum shelf-eleves are up to something.

Same here. No more email notifications that a PM has arrived. 

The motorized pin vice discussion is spread over several issues. Three methods were evaluated and the conclusion was method 1, which is close to what I show with the General Tools driver, seemed to work the best.

I like the chuck that MicroMark offers. I might dip into some of my kid's inheritance and shell out $30 for one.

Cheers, Ed

[maxman]

gmpullman

Glad to help.

Ed:

Thanks for letting me know about the PM.  Normally I get a message stating such, but I guess the forum shelf-eleves are up to something.

I did take a look at the link.  I'm going to have to spend some time seeing if I can figure out if there was any consensus opinion as to what worked best.  It seemed like a big part of the discussion was why there were variations of the same item.  Ended up totally confused..

I'll go over it again once the company leaves.

 

Thanks again.

[hon30critter]

Deleted: Wrong information.

Dave

[gmpullman]

maxman

Thanks again.

Glad to help.

I sent you a PM with a little more info.

          Ed

[maxman]

Thanks again.

 

Regards

[gmpullman]

I had mentioned General Tool in the reply.

Here's an Amazon link:

https://tinyurl.com/ujuv2v7

Give me a minute and I'll try to find the chuck. Ah, yes — here it is:

https://tinyurl.com/tnrnjja

There are other similar chucks out there and you may possibly come up with a workable combination. It sure would be nice to get the cordless driver with the proper 2° 49' 24.7" taper that the chuck could simply press onto the shaft without the adapter.

If you have a decent small lathe you could probably come up with an adapter. This one has a .125" bore you could probably open up to 6mm?

https://tinyurl.com/sx7afdd

 There are several chucks out there that have the common 1/4" hex-bit shank but these will not work. The General Tool driver uses a 4mm hex bit.

MicroMark has this chuck which might be a good solution:

https://www.micromark.com/Drill-Chuck-For-Ultra-Tech-Precision-Power-Screwdriver

 

 

Cheers, Ed

 

[maxman]

gmpullman

The battery-powered drill was under $15 at Amazon and the chuck was somewhere around $20.

Although not currently available, would you mind sharing who made those particular items?

Thanks and ho, ho ho.

[gmpullman]

One of the best tools I have ever added to my micro-drilling arsenal is this General Tools screw driver converted with a drill chuck:

motor-pin-vice by Edmund, on Flickr

I came across this suggestion at another model RR website. The battery-powered drill was under $15 at Amazon and the chuck was somewhere around $20.

motor-pin-vice-chuck by Edmund, on Flickr

Unfortunately, this particular chuck isn't available at the moment. It comes with, IIRC, an adapter with a 8mm bore and the driver has a shaft diameter of 6mm. I have a machinist friend working on a bushing but for now a piece of heat-shrink tubing is making up the difference. There is very little run-out.

Chuck_no78 by Edmund, on Flickr

This shows a #78 bit in the chuck. Some chucks are four jaw. I try to avoid these.

The driver turns at a respectable 100 RPM and I can drill plastic, resin or brass with ease. I have found that close-chucking tends to break bits more often, for me anyway. Leaving some shank extending out of the jaws seems to allow the bit to flex just a bit.

Good Luck, Ed

[AntonioFP45]

Excellent thread, guys!

Likely some of you have seen my past posts over the years regarding the headaches I encounter when attempting to drill holes for grabs irons on HO passenger cars that I metalize.

I'm encouraged by the info here and will give it a go. I have a few #79 bits, but will shop for #78's on my next trip to the hobby shop.

I'll experiment first on my scrap Bachmann Metroliner shells. Once I see positive results, I'll work on my Walthers and Rivarossi fleet.

 

[mbinsewi]

I chuck the bit as Wayne does, just enough shows to get through the material, and I usually use the #78 with Tichy grabs.

Harrison

My only experience with installing grad irons is on P2K kits, and I have no trouble installing them, but getting them of the sprue is a pain. I broke one, so it's a good thing they give you two extra!

Those delrin plastic grabs, with predrilled holes are a huge pain.

Kato locomotives use those, among others.

Mike.

[Harrison]

My only experience with installing grad irons is on P2K kits, and I have no trouble installing them, but getting them of the sprue is a pain. I broke one, so it's a good thing they give you two extra!

[trwroute]

I also use a #79 drill bit.  

On decorated cars, I barely push the grab iron into the hole.  I then paint it the appropriate color, and then push the grab in the correct distance and glue from the backside.  No extra paint on the body doing it this way.

[doctorwayne]

hon30critter

Wayne, I'm curious to know how you chuck your bits. Do you leave just a little bit sticking out of the pin vise, or do you only chuck the bottom of the shank?

I usually use them with enough of the bit protruding that the bit will complete the hole right through, whatever the thickness of the material.

When I got into drilling the holes for the first batch of Fowler cars (five cars, I think) I completed 387 holes with one bit, then used four to drill the last three holes. 

Wayne

[SeeYou190]

hon30critter

I agree! #80 bits are born to break at the first opportunity!

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Agree +1.

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Installing grab irons became 1,750% easier when I switched to #78 drill bits.

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-Kevin

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