I assume we are talking about metal grab irons. Some are shiny copper color and I dip them in a chemical blackener/patina darkener first. That also gives some good "tooth" for paint should you decide to do that.
A factory fresh freight car has nicely painted grabs (and stirrup steps) but they become grimy soon enough after they have been, well, grabbed a few times. I would not obsess about perfectly painting grab irons so long as you kill the unrealistic shine and gleam they have straight from the package.
If some color is appropriate the wax paper idea is a good one but I wonder if pushing a piece of wax paper would be like pushing string. I think very very thin plastic or stiff paper might be more practical, and even reusable. In my experience you only need to come reasonably close to the basic color of the car to be believable.
Dave Nelson
BLMA made a neat little template to ease grabiron installation. They may still be available from Atlas or from the auction site.
I have done all 14 grab irons and did not break a no. 80 bit, ta-da! This only took about two hours.
Frankly, I did not think I good do this. It went a lot better than I thought it would. It gives me the confidence to eventually do the grab irons on the Hiawatha passenger cars. I better do it sooner than later, because my eyesight gets worse very year. I hate growing old.
A #80 bit is not big enough for 0.015" brass wire.
.
I use a #78 drill for all my grab irons. I use mostly Tichy pre formed grabs becuase they are easy to find, but I think Weterfield grab irons are made better.
When installing grabs on a painted car I only paint the "probes" and not the "face" before installation. Then I touch up with Vallejo paints brushed on when the installation is complete.
Congratulations on not breaking any bits. I bought 1,000 #78 drill bits about five years ago, and have broken almost half of them now.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
It looks like you can still get the template from Atlas. See https://shop.atlasrr.com/p-50591-ho-scale-grab-iron-drill-template.aspx. However, I found using a push pin to punch the hole first was all I needed to stop the drill bit from wondering.
You are right, I had to use a no. 78 for the replacement grab iron.
Done, I just painted carefully with a micro brush and it looks great.
I have been dreading doing this detailed work, but it was not that bad. I feel more comfortable with my skills and willing to try doing the grab irons on the passenger cars.
JPDI have been dreading doing this detailed work, but it was not that bad.
Hi JPD,
I know the feeling. I think that is true of a lot of things that we haven't done before.
Congrats on getting the first car done. The others will be easier.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
SeeYou190I bought 1,000 #78 drill bits about five years ago, and have broken almost half of them now.
Hi Kevin,
I know that you do a lot of work, but that still seems like a lot of broken drills.
Are you using straight bits where the diameter of the shank is the same as the drill bit, or are you using the bits with a 1/8" or 1/4" shank? If you are using the larger shank bits by hand that is likely why they are breaking. They are designed for use in precision drill presses where there is no wobble from side to side. If you are using them by hand, any deflection force caused by wobbling is concentrated at the point where the actual tip meets the larger shank and that is where they break.
I use the bits that don't have the larger shanks. I have found that I break very few drills if I chuck the bit so that very little of it is left sticking out of the pin vise. I leave just enough to get through the material that I am drilling and about 1/16" more so I can see the tip of the bit. Doing that leaves very little of the bit to flex so it stays on target better. If the bit is sticking out by 1/2" or more, there is a much greater tendancy for the shank to flex, and it is the uncontrolled flexing that usually causes the bits to break.
I'm not suggesting that you replace your drill bits if they have the larger shanks, but this information might help others who are considering which bits to buy.
The grabirons which I use, either from Tichy or custom bent, are all .012" phosphor-bronze wire, but I use a #79 bit, as I can somehow break #80 bits simply by looking at them.
I use a set of dividers to mark-off both the vertical spacing of the grabs and the appropriate width, as there are several widths which were in common use during the late '30s.
This r-t-r model of a Dominion-Fowler boxcar was offered by LifeLike Canada as a Proto1000 car, and had free-standing grabirons. However, the grabirons were moulded in acetal plastic, and looked to me to be overly thick, so I replaced them with custom-bent wire ones (like the real cars, they were a non-standard width).
Each car has 36 grabirons, plus two roof grabs, for a total of 78 holes per car. I did over a dozen of these cars, using the #79 bit in a pin vise...
...and 4 or 5 of these Proto2000 stockcars, also originally with over-size plastic grabs, albeit only 30 grabirons and two roof grabs, for a total of 66 holes required for each...
Most of the cars were acquired either as new kits, or as partially-built kits that the original owner wasn't able to finish. As a result, many of the oversize grabs had never been installed, and for those, I first enlarged the holes to accept a stock diameter of Evergreen styrene rod, in order to provide for a styrene-compatible plug for each hole. Once the solvent cement joints had hardened, the excess material was trimmed off before drilling the holes for the grabirons.
A common cause of mis-aligned or otherwise crooked-looking grabirons is mounting holes which have accidently been drilled at an angle...up or down or even left or right.
Here's a bunch of Tyco/Mantua gondolas re-equipped with wire grabirons....
...here's one with crooked grabs because my sense of drilling-direction is apparently crooked, too...
However, using a small pair of smooth-jawed pliers, most of them can be straightened with a simple slight twist, either up or down...
...they don't always all get straightened out, as gondolas are usually subjected to some pretty-severe service, but this isn't unreasonably crooked...
Here's one of them painted....
...and a quite-similar Accurail car with metal grabirons installed...
This scratchbuilt gondola, along with four somewhat similar ones (no side cleanout doors)...
...also has wire grabirons installed. Here's one of them in service...
...and the finished cinder car...
Wayne
doctorwayneThe grabirons which I use, either from Tichy or custom bent, are all .012" phosphor-bronze wire, but I use a #79 bit, as I can somehow break #80 bits simply by looking at them.
I agree! #80 bits are born to break at the first opportunity!
Wayne, I'm curious to know how you chuck your bits. Do you leave just a little bit sticking out of the pin vise, or do you only chuck the bottom of the shank?
hon30critterI agree! #80 bits are born to break at the first opportunity!
Agree +1.
Installing grab irons became 1,750% easier when I switched to #78 drill bits.
hon30critterWayne, I'm curious to know how you chuck your bits. Do you leave just a little bit sticking out of the pin vise, or do you only chuck the bottom of the shank?
I usually use them with enough of the bit protruding that the bit will complete the hole right through, whatever the thickness of the material.
When I got into drilling the holes for the first batch of Fowler cars (five cars, I think) I completed 387 holes with one bit, then used four to drill the last three holes.
I also use a #79 drill bit.
On decorated cars, I barely push the grab iron into the hole. I then paint it the appropriate color, and then push the grab in the correct distance and glue from the backside. No extra paint on the body doing it this way.
Chuck - Modeling in HO scale and anything narrow gauge
My only experience with installing grad irons is on P2K kits, and I have no trouble installing them, but getting them of the sprue is a pain. I broke one, so it's a good thing they give you two extra!
Harrison
Homeschooler living In upstate NY a.k.a Northern NY.
Modeling the D&H in 1978.
Route of the famous "Montreal Limited"
My YouTube
I chuck the bit as Wayne does, just enough shows to get through the material, and I usually use the #78 with Tichy grabs.
HarrisonMy only experience with installing grad irons is on P2K kits, and I have no trouble installing them, but getting them of the sprue is a pain. I broke one, so it's a good thing they give you two extra!
Those delrin plastic grabs, with predrilled holes are a huge pain.
Kato locomotives use those, among others.
Mike.
My You Tube
Excellent thread, guys!
Likely some of you have seen my past posts over the years regarding the headaches I encounter when attempting to drill holes for grabs irons on HO passenger cars that I metalize.
I'm encouraged by the info here and will give it a go. I have a few #79 bits, but will shop for #78's on my next trip to the hobby shop.
I'll experiment first on my scrap Bachmann Metroliner shells. Once I see positive results, I'll work on my Walthers and Rivarossi fleet.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
One of the best tools I have ever added to my micro-drilling arsenal is this General Tools screw driver converted with a drill chuck:
motor-pin-vice by Edmund, on Flickr
I came across this suggestion at another model RR website. The battery-powered drill was under $15 at Amazon and the chuck was somewhere around $20.
motor-pin-vice-chuck by Edmund, on Flickr
Unfortunately, this particular chuck isn't available at the moment. It comes with, IIRC, an adapter with a 8mm bore and the driver has a shaft diameter of 6mm. I have a machinist friend working on a bushing but for now a piece of heat-shrink tubing is making up the difference. There is very little run-out.
Chuck_no78 by Edmund, on Flickr
This shows a #78 bit in the chuck. Some chucks are four jaw. I try to avoid these.
The driver turns at a respectable 100 RPM and I can drill plastic, resin or brass with ease. I have found that close-chucking tends to break bits more often, for me anyway. Leaving some shank extending out of the jaws seems to allow the bit to flex just a bit.
Good Luck, Ed
gmpullmanThe battery-powered drill was under $15 at Amazon and the chuck was somewhere around $20.
Although not currently available, would you mind sharing who made those particular items?
Thanks and ho, ho ho.
I had mentioned General Tool in the reply.
Here's an Amazon link:
https://tinyurl.com/ujuv2v7
Give me a minute and I'll try to find the chuck. Ah, yes — here it is:
https://tinyurl.com/tnrnjja
There are other similar chucks out there and you may possibly come up with a workable combination. It sure would be nice to get the cordless driver with the proper 2° 49' 24.7" taper that the chuck could simply press onto the shaft without the adapter.
If you have a decent small lathe you could probably come up with an adapter. This one has a .125" bore you could probably open up to 6mm?
https://tinyurl.com/sx7afdd
There are several chucks out there that have the common 1/4" hex-bit shank but these will not work. The General Tool driver uses a 4mm hex bit.
MicroMark has this chuck which might be a good solution:
https://www.micromark.com/Drill-Chuck-For-Ultra-Tech-Precision-Power-Screwdriver
Cheers, Ed
Thanks again.
Regards
maxmanThanks again.
Glad to help.
I sent you a PM with a little more info.
Ed
Deleted: Wrong information.
gmpullmanGlad to help.
Ed:
Thanks for letting me know about the PM. Normally I get a message stating such, but I guess the forum shelf-eleves are up to something.
I did take a look at the link. I'm going to have to spend some time seeing if I can figure out if there was any consensus opinion as to what worked best. It seemed like a big part of the discussion was why there were variations of the same item. Ended up totally confused..
I'll go over it again once the company leaves.
maxmanNormally I get a message stating such, but I guess the forum shelf-eleves are up to something.
Same here. No more email notifications that a PM has arrived.
The motorized pin vice discussion is spread over several issues. Three methods were evaluated and the conclusion was method 1, which is close to what I show with the General Tools driver, seemed to work the best.
I like the chuck that MicroMark offers. I might dip into some of my kid's inheritance and shell out $30 for one.
gmpullman...No more email notifications that a PM has arrived...
Yeah, I think that the PM notification has pretty-well died.
I got a small 4-jaw chuck from MicroMark that snaps right into my cordless DeWalt impact driver. It accepts drill bits from #80 to #58-or-so.
To use it, I open the centre drawer in my work desk, and rest my hand and the driver in it, then use my free hand to feed the work-piece to the bit. The variable speed offers control good enough for drilling plastics, but I usually use it for drilling metal.
gmpullmanOne of the best tools I have ever added to my micro-drilling arsenal is this General Tools screw driver converted with a drill chuck:
Ed got me inspired by showing his powered micro drill so I went looking for one for myself. As he mentioned, matching a chuck to a cordless driver seems to be a bit of a challenge, so I have ordered one of these. It is 12 volts so I'm hoping that I can use a train set power supply to control the speed:
https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B082RC9169/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
For drilling small holes, I have had good success with the Dremel 4.8 volt cordless moto-tool.
It is weak and worthless for any real work, but it is slow and weak enough to make it suitable for small drills and soft metal.
It still runs too fast for plastic and resin, I drill those by hand.
For about $20.00 it is a good buy, but it has lmited uses.
hon30critter so I have ordered one of these. It is 12 volts so I'm hoping that I can use a train set power supply to control the speed: https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B082RC9169/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Dave
so I have ordered one of these. It is 12 volts so I'm hoping that I can use a train set power supply to control the speed:
Is that a 3 or 4 jaw chuck?