Preorder or bust

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

Rapido

This has been a very interesting thread to read, and some of you have summarized the situation re: preorders and why they are necessary very well. Though I am a bit disappointed some people still think we just make Canadian stuff. Our next two locomotive shipments to come from the factories are the RS-11 and the B36-7, and two of our next three freight car shipments are NP and USRA prototypes. We make a lot of US models these days.

Something we're going to try with an announcement later this year is what we did with the N scale TurboTrain. We are going to announce it before cutting the tooling, and offer a 5% early buy discount to anyone that orders one through us or their hobby shop before the early buy deadline. 

At that point, if the pre-orders have covered the tooling costs, we go ahead and start the tooling. If not, we say "sorry we tried!" and move on. We don't ask for any funds in advance in these situations - we just know from the preorders that we will sell enough for the project to hit the black. 

With the N TurboTrain, we honestly had no idea if there was any demand. We were delighted by the response and the project was a success for us.

In most cases, though, we announce a project long after the tooling has been started. 

-Jason

 

Jason,

Not that I am anyone special, but I did spend some time in this business back in the day. I knew Lee Riley before AHM or Bachmann, etc.

I understand the business and manufacturing climate you are up against and think you are doing a great job. I understand it is not like back in the day for many reasons.

I have seen your product and it is all amazing. I have explained earlier my own needs and wants, but I will add a few more thoughts.

You came out with very nice ALCO FA models, but thinking only as a customer, and my personal interest in that prototype (I model a time when they were pretty new), I would never buy an FA, or EMD F unit, without being able to buy matching B units at the same time. It's just a non starter for me.

And I model in a style that requires little variety and lots of quantity. I am trying to capture that big railroad feel in one location, using a 1500 sq ft basement to only model one sub division terminal in a small city and the few miles in and out of that terminal. 

So I don't want one each of 60 locos, I want 4 each of 15 locos, or in the case of ALCO FA's, I have 3 ABBA sets, and 1 ABA set.

The challenge for modelers and manufacturers is product availability. At one time manufacturers, wholesalers, and dealers shared the cost of standing inventories to keep product available a fair percentage of the time. We know what happened there....

I often wonder if people loose interest in this hobby these days because of the challenges with acquiring the models that interest them? Or more importantly, the models they need to achieve some sense of continuity.

What good is is half a passenger train? Or no reasonable loco for that beautiful set of passenger cars?

Crude and incorrect as they might have been, Athearn always had B&O F7's to go with those streamlined and heavyweight B&O passenger cars..........

So before this gets to long, keep up the good work and good luck with all your projects.

Sheldon

[lone geep]

I do have to admit, when I first started this thread, I didn't mean to open the pre-ordering can of worms, only to let potential canadian ten-wheeler buyers to speak now or forever hold their peace. 

Either way, I get why preordering is a necessary evil in the hobby these days and that these models are not meant to appeal to everybody. I just love the looks of the D10 and was really excited when they were initially announce and would be very dissappointed for them not to go forward after all these years of waiting. 

Another thing that bugs me is when people dismiss them since the Hudsons have problems. Though I didn't get one, you gotta cut rapido some slack. Even though they are masters at freight and passenger cars and diesels, steam is its own category in design and manufacturing. And given that the hudsons were a first, of course there are going to be problems. I know it is frustrating to pay so much and have to send them back but Rapido appears to be bent on getting things right. So if your only going to pick up the ten wheelers when all reviews are 100%, you probably won't be able to pick them up at all.

Just my 

[PRR8259]

Long after the tooling has been started...which is a risk.

Another manufacturer did a line of cabeese that way...my understanding is only one of the caboose models ever really paid off the tooling and made reasonable profit for the investment.  The others are still in the process of paying off the tooling costs.

Regarding freelancing or protolancing, well I am sorta doing it but differently.  I would never have my own railroad, but I found a scarce brass model, that is the correct version, and the decals for it, and am having a pro do the paint job, and it plausibly could show up anywhere in Central PA or New York.  The prototype is part of a fleet of survivors still running, but reaching the end at nearly 48 years of service pulling freight.  The former Cartier big M-636's may have just had their last summer operating in solid sets, if at all.

John

[Rapido]

This has been a very interesting thread to read, and some of you have summarized the situation re: preorders and why they are necessary very well. Though I am a bit disappointed some people still think we just make Canadian stuff. Our next two locomotive shipments to come from the factories are the RS-11 and the B36-7, and two of our next three freight car shipments are NP and USRA prototypes. We make a lot of US models these days.

Something we're going to try with an announcement later this year is what we did with the N scale TurboTrain. We are going to announce it before cutting the tooling, and offer a 5% early buy discount to anyone that orders one through us or their hobby shop before the early buy deadline. 

At that point, if the pre-orders have covered the tooling costs, we go ahead and start the tooling. If not, we say "sorry we tried!" and move on. We don't ask for any funds in advance in these situations - we just know from the preorders that we will sell enough for the project to hit the black. 

With the N TurboTrain, we honestly had no idea if there was any demand. We were delighted by the response and the project was a success for us.

In most cases, though, we announce a project long after the tooling has been started. 

-Jason

[BATMAN]

selector

 

 

Motley

Rapido must be out of their minds charging $699 /w DCC Sound for that Royal Hudson a plastic loco. Holy crap there is no way I am spending that kind of money on one loco. LOL

 

 

 

 

They will be discounted by the usual amount at retailers.  My pre-order with Factory Direct has a list price substantially below the initial listings put out by Rapido.  Even so, they'll be less than half of what brass is new, every bit as accurate, better drives, and with a sound decoder and speaker to boot.

 

I also paid well below retail.

[BRAKIE]

Paul3

Brakie,What about the Rapido SW1200's?

 

Paul, I already have several Proto switchers,some Atlas Alco switchers and Athearn SW1500s and SW7 so,the Rapido SW1200 was of no interest to me. 

As I stated the GMD-1 caught my eye because its a unique engine but,not common enough for wide use by short lines and terminal switching roads.

[BATMAN]

SeeYou190

Please share some of these pictures of your Royal Hudsons with us.

Nothing worth showing yet, but they are coming. My Nikon D5000 is doing funny things and my Daughter has gone away to University and she is the one that has taken all the photography courses. I'm working on it though.

[selector]

Motley

Rapido must be out of their minds charging $699 /w DCC Sound for that Royal Hudson a plastic loco. Holy crap there is no way I am spending that kind of money on one loco. LOL

 

They will be discounted by the usual amount at retailers.  My pre-order with Factory Direct has a list price substantially below the initial listings put out by Rapido.  Even so, they'll be less than half of what brass is new, every bit as accurate, better drives, and with a sound decoder and speaker to boot.

[BATMAN]

I could have sworn Jason said my Hudsons would do this but I guess I just can't find that button.

Unless there was a transporter accident and it was the evil Shron talking.

[SeeYou190]

BATMAN

If you like taking photos of the layout the Hudson sure gives you variety as far as poses go.

.

Please share some of these pictures of your Royal Hudsons with us.

.

I would love to see how great these magnificent models can look in photographs.

.

-Kevin

.

[BATMAN]

The Royal Hudson has a lot of things you can push buttons to control. The duel speakers of one up front plus the one in the tender which you can control are great but I really like the inspection light a lot that lights up the ground beneath the cab and the white or green marker lights. The whole thing is just awesome. If you like taking photos of the layout the Hudson sure gives you variety as far as poses go.

[gmpullman]

BATMAN

I bought two, I must be really crazy.

I bought only one as I model the New York Central/PRR/B&O but that engine is so exquisite I simply had to have one 

doctorwayne

The brass over plastic comparisons aren't really valid anymore, given what's now possible in plastic.

I preordered the Royal Hudson when it was first announced. The "Street Price" is closer to $550-575. Because I preordered I was guaranteed the announced selling price of $535.

I have preordered quite a few locomotives this way and in some cases, such as the Broadway Limited NYC streamlined Hudson, which took over five years to finally come to fruition, I was still "locked-in" to the original price.

Regarding the $700 MSRP of the Royal Hudson, as Wayne points out, that is a bargain, IMHO! A custom paint job such as the Hudson has would run you at least $350 alone if you had a bare brass model. Add a sound decoder and two speakers (the Rapido model has a speaker under the stack!) the lighting, which most brass engines do not have and the cost of alternatives begins to add up.

https://www.brasstrains.com/Classic/Product/Detail/066909/HO-Brass-Van-Hobbies-VH-105-CPR-CP-Canadian-Pacific-4-6-4-Late-Run-H1a-Royal-Hudson-2800-Blue-Boiler-w-Smoke-Deflectors

CPR_4-6-4 by Edmund, on Flickr

CPR_4-6-4T by Edmund, on Flickr

CPR_4-6-4r by Edmund, on Flickr

Good Luck, Ed

[doctorwayne]

Motley

Rapido must be out of their minds charging $699 /w DCC Sound for that Royal Hudson a plastic loco....

That's one way of looking at things.  However, I've seen brass locomotives, like this one, belonging to a good friend....

...that is as good a runner as any HO loco I've seen, steam or diesel, and is, I would think, detailed to a degree comparable to that of Rapido's Royal Hudson.  However, it is straight DC, with no lighting and yet cost, when bought new, an amount approaching $2,000.00 Cdn.

The brass over plastic comparisons aren't really valid anymore, given what's now possible in plastic.  

One of the features that would entice me to buy one of Rapido's smaller steam locos, besides their appropriateness  to the nature of my layout, is their all-wheel drive mechanism, very similar to that found in current-day models of diesels.

Wayne

[BATMAN]

riogrande5761

There should be room in the hobby to have fun in many ways including free lancing, protolancings and whole range across the spectrum.

I agree, I have a C&O 2-10-4 on the layout because it is one of those engines I love and wanted. It doesn't fit my Canadian Pacific theme, however, if you need a story here it is. When Canada declared war on Germany in 1939, President Roosevelt being a good neighbour said to industry give them whatever they need and that included a lot of railroad equipment. So that is how I get away with running all the imported stuff.

[BATMAN]

Motley

Rapido must be out of their minds charging $699 /w DCC Sound for that Royal Hudson a plastic loco. Holy crap there is no way I am spending that kind of money on one loco. LOL

 

From what I can tell they did way better than they could have imagined on the pre-orders alone, so I am happy for them. I bought two, I must be really crazy.

[Motley]

Rapido must be out of their minds charging $699 /w DCC Sound for that Royal Hudson a plastic loco. Holy crap there is no way I am spending that kind of money on one loco. LOL

[Doughless]

I am a freelancer.  I have a fictitous railroad.  I have no reason to wait for any type of model to be produced.  

I'll buy what is on the shelf, in stock on line, or what somebody else no longer wants.

The criteria for what I buy stems from the railroad having a certain theme, era, and fictitous background.  Shortlines buy leftovers.  Any Atlas loco with generic details usually works.  Currently, I happen to love Intermountain U18Bs.

Any boxcar will work, any tank car, gondola, covered hopper, etc.  As long as it is era correct, has fine details, and I use it for the commodity or purpose it is intended for, its all good. 

Having said that, I do have fun deviating from the plan.  Watching a Big-Boy or Mallett run on the layout would be a lot more fun than watching a Ten Wheeler.

Never considered pre-ordering anything.  I don't care that much about replicating specific equipment, yet I've enjoyed the hobby for 40 years.

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

riogrande5761

 

 

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

And, despite the wealth of better models today, and better information, we are a long way from having "everything", or knowing "everything", so compromises still must be made, and standins used, and history slightly altered....... I'm in this to have fun, not film a documentary....... Sheldon

 

 

Compromise to one degree or another is a given in this hobby.

The documentary comment isn't really fair to those who "have fun" with models that are good matches to real freight cars.  With your opinion worn on your sleeve regularly here, it would be difficult to not know what it is on a myriad of topics.  I think it would be fair to say there is room in the hobby for free lancers and a host of others - peace out.

 

I will say again, I like accurate well detailed models, I have lots of them. I have no problem with modelers who are picky about accuracy. The level of accuracy and detail of any one given model has nothing to do with my reasons for freelancing.

In fact, a pretty high percentage of my models with ATLANTIC CENTRAL on the side of them are accurate models of some prototype car or locomotive that existed. I have my share from Kadee, FoxValley, Intermoutain, Genesis, Spectrum (yes, most are very accurate), BLI, Spring Mills Depot, Proto2000, Branchline, F&C, and others.

But as explained before, I'm not holding out or holding off for every model on the layout to be museum level, and I'm not replacing suitable "stand ins" or "close enoughs" every time something new comes out.

And, as explained before, in the 1953 era I model, accurate models are fewer, and spoting features are often more subtle than more modern equipment needed by those who model more recent times, also a point I have made before and agree that modeling some newer stuff might require different standards even for me.

And, when it comes to passenger cars I think selective compression is a valid and useful tool just like it is with structures and scenery.

And my layout theme requires 1000 freight cars for the desired operating sessions - compromise to one degree or another is a given in this hobby.

I know the trend is smaller layouts with higher levels of detail and accuracy, that's fine. I'm not interested in the trend. I'm interested in 30 train operating sessions with 35-50 car trains on a 1500 sq ft layout. And I'm interested in being able to display run 4 or 5 of those trains at once.

For that, a few cars are not going to have brake rigging, or every rivet perfect........

You are welcome to compromise where you see fit, I will do the same, I was simply replying to Kevin and his lament regarding the lack of freelance modeling today.

Sheldon

[riogrande5761]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

And, despite the wealth of better models today, and better information, we are a long way from having "everything", or knowing "everything", so compromises still must be made, and standins used, and history slightly altered....... I'm in this to have fun, not film a documentary....... Sheldon

Compromise to one degree or another is a given in this hobby.

The documentary comment comes off as sounding somewhat intolerant of other aspects of the hobby and isn't fair to those who "have fun" with models that are good matches to real freight cars.  There should be room in the hobby to have fun in many ways including free lancing, protolancings and whole range across the spectrum.

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

As for Rapido, their stuff looks great.

But like a few others have commented, I'm still waiting for something I just have to have.

The new box cars look nice, but I only have a limited appetite for $50 rtr freight cars.

I'm not replacing my 6 RDC's with $300 ones, for several reasons.

Long before Rapido, I already have 15 ALCO FA/FB locos of suitable detail and running quality.

Little else they have made is of any interest, pre order on not.

Sometimes these discussions of a particular high end brand remind me of the old reasons for freelancing, they made it, so I should buy one and find a use for it just because it is so great and is what is available.

No, but if they do make something I really want, that I don't already have, price will not be a limiting factor.

Sheldon

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

Kevin, you and I are the last of the freelance/protolance modelers.

There were lots of reasons why modelers in the past went the freelance route. Some did it for reasons Paul points out, to build an effective layout with the limited models available.

But others like myself, also did not want to be completely restricted to one or two prototype lines limiting what models fit the theme.

I still follow pretty strict self imposed rules, but they are my rules for plausibility, not the rules of actual recorded history.

And I do try to keep my B&O, C&O, WM interchange stuff pretty accurate. But like you, I like the interpretive freedom of freelance modeling.

And, despite the wealth of better models today, and better information, we are a long way from having "everything", or knowing "everything", so compromises still must be made, and standins used, and history slightly altered.......

I'm in this to have fun, not film a documentary.......

Sheldon

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

Paul,

I have managed to purchase virtually everything that I want that has been manufactured, and out of 140 locos, 1000 freight cars, and 300 passenger cars, I have waited for 3 pre orders.......

Sheldon

[SeeYou190]

doctorwayne

I dunno, Kevin.  For many folks nowadays, their home road has been long gone.  If they're lucky, it's now a road based far from where they live, and if they're not that lucky, there is no home road. My home town was served by both CNR and CPR, along with the NYC and the TH&B.

.

I believe the quote I was answering meant custom/fictitious/personal roadnames. At least that is how I interpretted it.

.

Sorry for the confusion.

.

Paul3

SeeYou190, Why?

.

I love fictitious roadnames. Some were silly, some cheesy, some punny, some (like mine) sounded semi-legitimate. Any way you chose, you were able to make a railroad that matched your personality, dreams, vision, and desires.

.

It just seemed more personal as an expression of craftmanship.

.

I do not mean that making up your own railroad would be right for all that many people, I just would like to see it done more often.

.

-Kevin

.

[doctorwayne]

SeeYou190

I really wish more people would model their own home road again.

I dunno, Kevin.  For many folks nowadays, their home road has been long gone.  If they're lucky, it's now a road based far from where they live, and if they're not that lucky, there is no home road.

My home town was served by both CNR and CPR, along with the NYC and the TH&B.  The latter was the real hometown road, now gone (absorbed by CPRail), and the NYC's even longer-gone.  There were also a number of industrial railroads, some still extant.

All of the four big ones are represented on my layout, usually as freight or passenger equipment, and a few locomotives, but there are also interchanges with them. 

I also have several towns on the layout named for real places, with industries named for real industries, but the entire layout is otherwise all freelanced....neither the towns nor industries look like their prototypes.

For the freight cars and locomotives representing real ones, they're a little more exacting.

Wayne

[Paul3]

SeeYou190,
Why?

[SeeYou190]

Paul3

The majority of hobbyists back then modeled their own home road. 

.

I really wish more people would model their own home road again.

.

-Kevin

.

[Paul3]

dknelson,
Yes, pre-ordering and limited runs are the way is has to be now.

And yes, model railroading is a tiny niche market.  This isn't a regular retail item with millions/billions of potential customers.

The old PFM days are long gone.  The majority of hobbyists back then modeled their own home road.  Why?  If the hobby is replicating the prototype in miniature, why did the guys back then not model a prototype railroad?  Simple: because they couldn't.  The product just wasn't available.  Many modelers bought what was available and instead of having a roster full of mis-matched prototype paint schemes, they painted them all in a home road.  That's why PFM was successful making large runs; they ran well and looked good.

Modelers don't want generic models any more.  They don't want to model a home road with a bunch of NYC, ATSF, PRR, GN, B&O, WP, and UP engines.  At my 65-member club, we have over 2000 engines registered.  The number of member-owned home road locos can be counted on two hands.

If you tried to operate like PFM today (large runs of brass), you'd lose your shirt.

Sheldon,
Do you know what's worse than ordering and waiting a year?  Not being able to order anything and getting a whole lot of nothing.

Brakie,
What about the Rapido SW1200's?

https://www.rapidotrains.com/sites/default/files/2018/12/26-SW1200-collage.jpg

Tinplate Toddler,
No one said this is a riskless business.  There is always a risk.  For example, you make a business plan based on expected income and sales only to have the factory close unexpectedly, or for tarriffs to happen, or a competitor beats you to the punch.

Pre-ordering is about lessening risk.  Especially the one where you're sitting on tens of thousands of dollars of inventory.

And it obviously works.  Look at Rapido.  In business for 15 years and not only have they done nothing but pre-orders, they've also grown their business to become a major player in this hobby.

[PRR8259]

After initially seeing the announcements of smaller Canadian steam from Rapido, I was thrilled and responded in online forum(s) that I was very excited about them and would indeed buy one, regardless of it being Canadian or American or whatever, I could have used one.

However, that was now quite some time ago, and for various reasons (too long and winded for me to discuss here), I eventually decided to leave my steam interests to the history books.

Instead, I chose to play with/collect/"model" the big Alco Century and MLW M-series diesels...which other than new plastic from Bowser, can be difficult to find in previously released brass models, but they are out there.

So in my personal case it is unfortunate that I will not have to buy one of the steamers.

Regarding waiting a year from preorder to model in hand, and subsequently losing interest in the meantime:

1. I wish my one Genesis preorder had only taken a simple year and

2. I have lost interest and no longer need an ICG orange/white F-3 so

3. I will be stuck picking it up and reselling it, and hoping somebody else will want it.

So far as "preordering" in most cases I really am simply taking slots for models that stores have already ordered on speculation of selling them.

I am finding it better to buy once models are out and I can actually see them.

I like how some companies annouce freight cars once they actually have them available for sale.

John

[BATMAN]

maxman

 

 

BATMAN

He didn't see any of it but did his research beforehand.

 

 

Yes, research is the important thing.  I've considered ordering a couple things from Amazon, but found them less expensive locally.  An example would be Tamiya liquid cement.  Amazon was almost twice the cost.

 

I have found some things can be outrages on Amazon so you have to be careful. We get same-day delivery on most things. Getting rid of all that cardboard is another story. The recycle bin will soon become bin(s) and the one we have is huge.

[maxman]

BATMAN

He didn't see any of it but did his research beforehand.

Yes, research is the important thing.  I've considered ordering a couple things from Amazon, but found them less expensive locally.  An example would be Tamiya liquid cement.  Amazon was almost twice the cost.