If anyone is planning on aquiring a D10 or H6 ten wheeler from Rapido Trains, you might want to do it soon since it appears that pre-order numbers have been quite dissappointing to the point that they might not enter production. https://myemail.constantcontact.com/Rapido-News-115---Join-us-for-a-3D-Scan--Order-Deadlines--New-Videos-.html?soid=1101318906379&aid=o2-fOhGvqPU
Lone Geep
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This is not surprising. People said the Royal Hudson was too unique and special, and they say they won't buy the Royal Hudson, but they would buy 5 of the 4-6-0 locomotive if given a chance. Then when given the chance, they sit on their wallets.
.
We hear the same thing about Big Boys, why so many of this rare and unique locomotive and not a new model of a 2-8-0 that was 1,000 times more common?
Simple... Royal Hudsons and Big Boys sell.
This is something you learn in business. What people say they want is seldom what they will actually buy. Make the items the buyers will buy. Don't listen the vocal critics that will never ever wipe the dust off the checkbook.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
A bit of topic but of more interest to me is the announcement for a 3D scan party at Oregon Rail heritage center. What are they scanning? SP&S 700? That would make me excited, but BLI has also anoinced such a model. Is it SP 4999?
Regards, Isaac
I model my railroad and you model yours! I model my way and you model yours!
I'm very interested in mid sized steam like Ten Wheelers and Consolidations, but I don't model Canadian roads, and I'm not sure I'm ready to spend $500, or any thing close to that, on a lettering/kit bash project.
Now a B&O B18 might be a different story.
Sheldon, spoiled by the good looks, good performance and low cost of my existing fleet of Spectrum, older BLI and Proto Steam.
This is disappointing, but in a way it's also very encouraging.
Obviously, this might end up a dead end for Rapido, especially if the rest of their future offerings die on the subscription vine. Steam, I mean. That would be disappointing because they are quickly establishing themselves as the standard bearers for higher detailed and true-to-prototype models...if you can afford them. And I think they are pricing themselves wisely. Yeah, they are stiff prices if you're used to scrounging for Blue Box and the like, but boy do you get a great model.
What I mean by encouraging is that the company is in a strong position, and has placed themselves in the hobby, where they can be forthright and keep their potential clients fully apprised of where they're at..as the Newfoundlanders would put it. They are always aware of their own status, and they share an abundance of their thinking and concerns with their customer base. They are also quick to turn on a dime when it seems prudent to do so. They won't lay out the cash and hope for the better. Those days are long gone in our hobby. Instead, they express their concerns in an informative newsletter that gets published at least six times a year, and they put US in the driver's seat. "You tell us what you want, and we'll build-em. Build 'em good, too."
This is what keeps Rapido booming, and in turn it is good for us and for our beloved hobby. They're savvy, they mean well, and they treat us like valued customers. Can't see a down side to that.
Selector and all,
I should make it clear I have no problem with Rapidos pricing relative to their value added features and quality. And I would hardly call my fleet of locos "scrounging for Blue Box and the like". But most were bought before some of the recent market changes, and most were bought without DCC or sound, lowering their relative prices, and yes many of my diesels are Proto2000 bought on "closeout", or NOS at train shows or Ebay.
But I have paid $300 and more for nice steam loco models, that is not the issue.
The main issue in this case is that Canadian steam has some unique spotting features, and may not blend well with my fleet without some work.
Do I want to spend $500 and do that work? I think not. I can likely find three Sunset brass B&O B18's for less money each. Because I don't want just one, I would like to have three or four.
Sheldon
I know that this pre-order/limited run world and that business model is the way things are now, and I know that presumably intelligent business owners -- the ones with their money on the line after all - say it's the way it has to be.
But I still wonder if it really is the way it has to be. Is it really such a world of tiny demand and tiny supply? How is it that other forms of marketing and other business models work to create demand, or satisfy demand over time frames longer than a few weeks? Is the model train economy really such an outlier?
One of the remarkable things about the old Pacific Fast Mail line of brass imports is that the owner Bill Ryan had his own likes and interests, incluing Great Northern, Northern Pacific, and Western Pacific and Shays, so that is what he took his chances on and virtually created the demand for those engines and those road names. And they were imported in such quantity as to be available for dealer's shelves for a while and thereby created the interest over a period of time.
True that was also back in the day when there were dealers. And they had shelves. And they took some chances on what they stocked. Sigh. I am a flip-phone geezer I guess.
Dave Nelson
And I agree with Dave about the preorder thing as well, the idea of ordering and waiting a year does not excite me one bit.
It's not just locomotives, though. There are a lot of structure kits no longer available, although Walthers does occasionally restore limited production of some retired models.
Get 'em while you can, particularly steam and Transition Era models. Setting up for a run of any model is not something to be taken lightly, and may mean suspending or dropping another model from production. There's only so much production capacity out there.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
What Rapido is doing is a little different than the typical limited production - and quite sensible. If they don't have committed sales for enough models, either the individual price will have to be much higher to cover the tooling and production cost, plus a reasonable profit, or they don't get made. Things have always been that way - limited production or not. The glory days weren't all roses, sometimes those manufacturers lost their shorts on a run or two that didn't sell well.
For other limited production stuff - well, I have quite a few models sold under that model. Only one did I ever actually order ahead of time, and no money down was required. I subsequently got 2 more of that model, long after they were sold out, on eBay. For much less than I paid for the first one - and they were unopened, unused. My most recent loco purchase - also a limited run item. A few weeks after delivery, they started showing up on eBay. I skipped it then. Then they were getting hard to find - suddenly, closeout sale, got one. A new run was done of the same model, but not in the paint scheme I wanted/have. I'm not counting P2K locos, almost all of which were labeled "Limited Run" on the boxes prior to Walthers buying them. They were so 'limited' that in some cases I was still finding new in box ones 10+ years after they were made, at train shows and on ebay.
The stuff is out there. Often still new, not something someone ran on their layout for 20 years and now the familiy is getting rid of it because the modeler passed away. I haven't missed anything I wanted so far. Same with structures - I've found plenty of out of production Walthers kits, unbuilt. Some of the bridge kits I have, from Central Valley, Micro Engineering, and Walthers - not sure if they are all still in production, but I found them at a train show, still sealed and unbuilt. Rolling stock kits - depending on what it is, I can probably find it new at a hobby shop I know, guy's had the same inventory for probably 25 years now. I think I've been there enough to get the ones I want, but there are still shelves full of BB kits, Bowser, Accurail, and others. I still find ones I want at train shows and on eBay.
I guess I;m different from most consumers. If i DO miss something I wanted, I'd be disappointed, but it wouldn;t feel like my layout plan is now ruined. And odds are, I'll find one in a year or so anyway.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I think that Rapido's pre-order policy is sane business policy, especially in this day and age.
Custom-made brass locomotives for many models were hand-made in relatively limited numbers (in most cases). Dealers could sign-on for what they thought saleable, and the importer could order the building of a comparable number, plus a few extras for back-up if the model proved popular. If something was a real hit with modellers, another run could be commisioned.
However, with mass-produced models, the tooling is a major cost, and needs to be amortised over a set number of units which will determine the price per unit and the number needed to make a reasonable profit. If there are insufficient pre-orders, the model is unlikely to be made....unfortunate for those who were interested, but a good practice, in my opinion, business-wise.I have a very nice brass model of a CNR H-6-g, built by Samhongsa and imported by Van Hobbies. I've detailed it to match photos of its prototype, and it's a nice-running locomotive...
I got it at a very good price because it did not have its original box. When Rapido announced the the Royal Hudson would be their first model of steam, I was disappointed, as it was of no interest to me. Had they announced the Ten Wheeler at that time, I would have put in my pre-order. However, while the Royal Hudson project was underway, I happened upon another H-6-g, same maker and importer, but this one with a can motor (the first one has an open-frame motor, in which I installed rare earth magnets, vastly improving its performance). This one, obtained at an estate sale, was an even better price (the sellers knew its worth, but had dozens of locos they needed to move) and I'm currently in the process of making it look like the prototype its original owner (whom I knew) had numbered it. It will be considerably different from the one shown above, and will require a scratchbuilt tender, I think.
I truly wish success for Rapido's steam projects, and while I may, at some point, put in a pre-order, I am in a position where I definitely don't "need" more locomotives.
In March of 2017, I pre-ordered a specifically-lettered tank car from Intermountain, and while it's the same car as many they've offered over the years, with various lettering, it's not yet been done recently in that particular lettering scheme, despite having been offered earlier.
Wayne
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Selector and all, I should make it clear I have no problem with Rapidos pricing relative to their value added features and quality. And I would hardly call my fleet of locos "scrounging for Blue Box and the like". But most were bought before some of the recent market changes, and most were bought without DCC or sound, lowering their relative prices, and yes many of my diesels are Proto2000 bought on "closeout", or NOS at train shows or Ebay. But I have paid $300 and more for nice steam loco models, that is not the issue. The main issue in this case is that Canadian steam has some unique spotting features, and may not blend well with my fleet without some work. Do I want to spend $500 and do that work? I think not. I can likely find three Sunset brass B&O B18's for less money each. Because I don't want just one, I would like to have three or four. Sheldon
Sheldon, my comment was about Rapido, not about you.
Like their boxcar but it is not for Southern Pacific, so no.
Well, I love my two Hudsons even though I have sent one of them back once and the other twice. I am putting it down to teething pains for their steam program. Rapido really likes to keep us informed about what is going on with the company, I wish Jason would address the decoder (and other issues) failers, that would make me feel a bit better about ordering two of the ten wheelers which I will do, I am just shopping for a good deal at the moment and will commit by deadline.
For some reason, I want to buy one of these as well. Must be my British heritage genes even though some of my roots in Canada go back to the late 1700s they still linger.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Whether we like it or not, it's the way of the world. If you think this business model is only for model trains, think again. It happens on most everything we buy with the exception of perishables. Being in the toy business, we have to book new items a good 12-18 months out, and like Rapido, if they can't hit the minimums, they don't make it. Same happens in the clothing and footwear business. Sneakers are made in runs of whatever they choose, they pre-book a good year or more in advance, and once it's made, that's it. Production runs have to be slotted with the makers/builders so things should run on time (we hope).
Some of the train manufacturers don't have staff on site overseas, so when the sample comes it, if it's wrong, it get's sent back to get fixed. Or, they get the sample, approve it, and when it arrives in the states, some things are not up to snuff or gets damaged in transit. It happens.
Things have changed since the old Pacific Fast Mail days. We're living in a new decade, and manufacturers can't afford to have 'extra' or make something that may not sell just because someone thought it would.
What I like about this approach is that it allows Rapido to determine the volume and lower the risk for them. The last thing I want to see is Rapido go out of business. Personally, I am mostly interested in steam that is unique and not part of my little roster at home. So I will certainly pre-order the CN Northern U4. And I might pre-order the Selkirk (it will depend on the recommended minimum radius). But the smaller steam I already have -- which is not 100% prototypical but I will tolerate these differences given the price tag of the Rapido models. Until my pockets get deeper...
Simon
Until Rapido makes somethig I can use I will sit on my wallet as Canadian locomotives isn't something I care to own..I own a few Canadian road freight cars but,that's part of the railroad interchange plant.
I will admit their GMD-1 got a second look but,its not a common engine found on short lines or terminal switching roads so,it was a pass for me.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Anybody who thinks he can run a riskless business must be a complete fool. It´s a sure guarantee to get driven out of business, sooner or later. This will eventually happen to those manufacturers, who limit their range of products to those models they think they can sell by the container load, i.e. signature models like the UP Big Boy or SP´s Gs4 4449, but also to those, who require a sufficient amount of over-priced pre-orders to cash out the investment into new tooling. With this type of attempted cherry-picking, you are bound to fail to develop a customer base, let a lone a market.
Sorry, I never pre-order anything. In fact, I never order anything I cannot hold in my hands prior to buying it.
Happy times!
Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)
"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"
Tinplate ToddlerAnybody who thinks he can run a riskless business must be a complete fool.
Oh, I don't know about that. Undertakers seem to come close. After all, what's the worst that could happen other than the customer dying? And that would be a pre-existing condition.
Tinplate ToddlerSorry, I never pre-order anything. In fact, I never order anything I cannot hold in my hands prior to buying it.
Amazon must not get much business from you. We just ordered the kid in Ottawa a new Queen mattress, desk, nightstand and he ordered a 50" sony TV all from the comfort of home. He didn't see any of it but did his research beforehand. We have a half-hour drive to the nearest store and Amazon is saving us a fortune in transportation.
BATMANHe didn't see any of it but did his research beforehand.
Yes, research is the important thing. I've considered ordering a couple things from Amazon, but found them less expensive locally. An example would be Tamiya liquid cement. Amazon was almost twice the cost.
maxman BATMAN He didn't see any of it but did his research beforehand. Yes, research is the important thing. I've considered ordering a couple things from Amazon, but found them less expensive locally. An example would be Tamiya liquid cement. Amazon was almost twice the cost.
BATMAN He didn't see any of it but did his research beforehand.
I have found some things can be outrages on Amazon so you have to be careful. We get same-day delivery on most things. Getting rid of all that cardboard is another story. The recycle bin will soon become bin(s) and the one we have is huge.
After initially seeing the announcements of smaller Canadian steam from Rapido, I was thrilled and responded in online forum(s) that I was very excited about them and would indeed buy one, regardless of it being Canadian or American or whatever, I could have used one.
However, that was now quite some time ago, and for various reasons (too long and winded for me to discuss here), I eventually decided to leave my steam interests to the history books.
Instead, I chose to play with/collect/"model" the big Alco Century and MLW M-series diesels...which other than new plastic from Bowser, can be difficult to find in previously released brass models, but they are out there.
So in my personal case it is unfortunate that I will not have to buy one of the steamers.
Regarding waiting a year from preorder to model in hand, and subsequently losing interest in the meantime:
1. I wish my one Genesis preorder had only taken a simple year and
2. I have lost interest and no longer need an ICG orange/white F-3 so
3. I will be stuck picking it up and reselling it, and hoping somebody else will want it.
So far as "preordering" in most cases I really am simply taking slots for models that stores have already ordered on speculation of selling them.
I am finding it better to buy once models are out and I can actually see them.
I like how some companies annouce freight cars once they actually have them available for sale.
John
dknelson,Yes, pre-ordering and limited runs are the way is has to be now.And yes, model railroading is a tiny niche market. This isn't a regular retail item with millions/billions of potential customers.
The old PFM days are long gone. The majority of hobbyists back then modeled their own home road. Why? If the hobby is replicating the prototype in miniature, why did the guys back then not model a prototype railroad? Simple: because they couldn't. The product just wasn't available. Many modelers bought what was available and instead of having a roster full of mis-matched prototype paint schemes, they painted them all in a home road. That's why PFM was successful making large runs; they ran well and looked good.
Modelers don't want generic models any more. They don't want to model a home road with a bunch of NYC, ATSF, PRR, GN, B&O, WP, and UP engines. At my 65-member club, we have over 2000 engines registered. The number of member-owned home road locos can be counted on two hands.If you tried to operate like PFM today (large runs of brass), you'd lose your shirt.Sheldon,Do you know what's worse than ordering and waiting a year? Not being able to order anything and getting a whole lot of nothing.Brakie,What about the Rapido SW1200's?https://www.rapidotrains.com/sites/default/files/2018/12/26-SW1200-collage.jpg
Tinplate Toddler,No one said this is a riskless business. There is always a risk. For example, you make a business plan based on expected income and sales only to have the factory close unexpectedly, or for tarriffs to happen, or a competitor beats you to the punch.Pre-ordering is about lessening risk. Especially the one where you're sitting on tens of thousands of dollars of inventory.And it obviously works. Look at Rapido. In business for 15 years and not only have they done nothing but pre-orders, they've also grown their business to become a major player in this hobby.
Paul3The majority of hobbyists back then modeled their own home road.
I really wish more people would model their own home road again.
SeeYou190,Why?
SeeYou190I really wish more people would model their own home road again.
I dunno, Kevin. For many folks nowadays, their home road has been long gone. If they're lucky, it's now a road based far from where they live, and if they're not that lucky, there is no home road.My home town was served by both CNR and CPR, along with the NYC and the TH&B. The latter was the real hometown road, now gone (absorbed by CPRail), and the NYC's even longer-gone. There were also a number of industrial railroads, some still extant.All of the four big ones are represented on my layout, usually as freight or passenger equipment, and a few locomotives, but there are also interchanges with them. I also have several towns on the layout named for real places, with industries named for real industries, but the entire layout is otherwise all freelanced....neither the towns nor industries look like their prototypes.For the freight cars and locomotives representing real ones, they're a little more exacting.
doctorwayneI dunno, Kevin. For many folks nowadays, their home road has been long gone. If they're lucky, it's now a road based far from where they live, and if they're not that lucky, there is no home road. My home town was served by both CNR and CPR, along with the NYC and the TH&B.
I believe the quote I was answering meant custom/fictitious/personal roadnames. At least that is how I interpretted it.
Sorry for the confusion.
Paul3SeeYou190, Why?
I love fictitious roadnames. Some were silly, some cheesy, some punny, some (like mine) sounded semi-legitimate. Any way you chose, you were able to make a railroad that matched your personality, dreams, vision, and desires.
It just seemed more personal as an expression of craftmanship.
I do not mean that making up your own railroad would be right for all that many people, I just would like to see it done more often.
Paul,
I have managed to purchase virtually everything that I want that has been manufactured, and out of 140 locos, 1000 freight cars, and 300 passenger cars, I have waited for 3 pre orders.......
Kevin, you and I are the last of the freelance/protolance modelers.
There were lots of reasons why modelers in the past went the freelance route. Some did it for reasons Paul points out, to build an effective layout with the limited models available.
But others like myself, also did not want to be completely restricted to one or two prototype lines limiting what models fit the theme.
I still follow pretty strict self imposed rules, but they are my rules for plausibility, not the rules of actual recorded history.
And I do try to keep my B&O, C&O, WM interchange stuff pretty accurate. But like you, I like the interpretive freedom of freelance modeling.
And, despite the wealth of better models today, and better information, we are a long way from having "everything", or knowing "everything", so compromises still must be made, and standins used, and history slightly altered.......
I'm in this to have fun, not film a documentary.......