dknelson I think it might also be fair to point out that a wood kit (or kit with wood parts) needs to be stored correctly to avoid warping of parts. The older those FSM kits get the more you have to trust/hope that the prior owner stored them correctly. I was once delighted to get an Alexander kit at a nice price only to learn that it was severely warped almost beyond build-ability and good mostly for the castings, which for Alexander unlike FSM were not always worthy of the rest of the kit.
I think it might also be fair to point out that a wood kit (or kit with wood parts) needs to be stored correctly to avoid warping of parts. The older those FSM kits get the more you have to trust/hope that the prior owner stored them correctly. I was once delighted to get an Alexander kit at a nice price only to learn that it was severely warped almost beyond build-ability and good mostly for the castings, which for Alexander unlike FSM were not always worthy of the rest of the kit.
I found just the opposite problem. I purchase FSM's version of the John Allen engine house off ebay a few years ago. I think the kit came out in the early 1980s. The walls were so dry they were brittle and one broke apart along the clapboard line. It wasn't a hard fix but I learned I had to handle with care.
I hear you John. Parts that break or split (or come that way) is one of the risks of wood kits, even newly issued ones. It is common enough - routine even - for the thin sides made of wood that Jeff Wilson's book on building structures provides suggestions for fixes on the assumption that if you build enough wood kits it is something you'll run into.
Most wood rolling stock kits had thicker sides than some of these high quality structure kits.
Dave Nelson
Haven't gotten an unusable kit yet from any of the FSM, Campbell or other wood kits I have built. Sure there were warped peices in some but sometimes peices came warped at the getgo but most the reason is not the storage (asuming a dry place) but from the repacking of kits after examination by the oringinal owner especially in FSM kits with their sometimes very heavy castings. Bought one wood kit off e-bay and all the heavy castings were on top of very thin stripwood so they were broken and bent (I have lots of stripwood so no issue) but this was due to very bad repacking.
Besides being an operator first, another reason I have no interest in FSM kits is that I don't model the early 20th century; somebody already mentioned this upthread.Like the "John Allen's Enginehouse" kit. It would be supremely out of place on my 1980s railroad. And for those keeping score at home, the 1980s were over 30 years ago; they ARE "the old days."And I'm going to stick my dinkie in the meat grinder here and suggest that this hobby overfetishizes decay. I saw the NMRA Bulletin featuring the convention's winning models 4 or 5 years ago, and not a single winning entry was of something in good condition. And I don't mean "weathered," or "beat up" -- I mean out and out derelict.Anybody looking in from the outside would think we were modeling urban blight, not railroads.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Bayfield Transfer Railway Besides being an operator first, another reason I have no interest in FSM kits is that I don't model the early 20th century; somebody already mentioned this upthread.Like the "John Allen's Enginehouse" kit. It would be supremely out of place on my 1980s railroad. And for those keeping score at home, the 1980s were over 30 years ago; they ARE "the old days."And I'm going to stick my dinkie in the meat grinder here and suggest that this hobby overfetishizes decay. I saw the NMRA Bulletin featuring the convention's winning models 4 or 5 years ago, and not a single winning entry was of something in good condition. And I don't mean "weathered," or "beat up" -- I mean out and out derelict.Anybody looking in from the outside would think we were modeling urban blight, not railroads.
Yes, the 80's were 30 years ago, but not everyone models an era that they lived thru.......and some of us go back a lot father than that even if we did.
I don't model the turn of the last century either, and most of these kits do not fit my era or locale either, at least not as proposed by the kit maker.......
And I'm going to stick my dinkie in the meat grinder here and suggest that this hobby overfetishizes decay.
Well, on that I am going to agree with you and defend you.
Carefully crafted as it may be, the F&SM is a caricature. The Great Depression was not that depressing visually, not by any long shot. While I respect the builders skill and talent, it is not a modeling style I imbrace.
In real life, in any given moment, in any given place, there things in decay, things that are new, and things in between.
I have no interest in modeling poverty on a large scale........
Or tragedy, or crime......
I model the best things in life, tempered with some realism.
Back to the topic of modeling era - I model the early 50's, I was born in 1957, so my childhood memories of trains are the late 60's and early 70's - I would NEVER model that era!
If I was going to pick another era, it would be the late 20's, right before the "crash".
Yes, I'm a history person. Modeling a time before my life combines the two interests.
I pay little attention to current railroading, it does not interest me much at all.
Back to the thread topic - The value of anything is only determined by how bad you want it, and how bad the other person wants to be rid of it.
I never understood the "collector" thing with this particular type of product anyway, especially by those who clearly hardly ever actually built one of these kits.
Sheldon
Bayfield Transfer Railway And I'm going to stick my dinkie in the meat grinder here and suggest that this hobby overfetishizes decay. I saw the NMRA Bulletin featuring the convention's winning models 4 or 5 years ago, and not a single winning entry was of something in good condition. And I don't mean "weathered," or "beat up" -- I mean out and out derelict.Anybody looking in from the outside would think we were modeling urban blight, not railroads.
And I'm going to stick my dinkie in the meat grinder here and suggest that this hobby overfetishizes decay. I saw the NMRA Bulletin featuring the convention's winning models 4 or 5 years ago, and not a single winning entry was of something in good condition. And I don't mean "weathered," or "beat up" -- I mean out and out derelict.Anybody looking in from the outside would think we were modeling urban blight, not railroads.
While many consider Selios' F&SM a masterpiece, my biggest criticism of it is that the entire layout is uniformly over-weathered. I've never seen any urban area where every building is equally dilapidated. Some would be kept in poor shape, but many others would be freshly painted, while still others would be anywhere in-between.
As far as the FSM kits declining in value, anyone who buys model train items on speculation that it will be worth more someday is taking a risk.
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
How did you spend 100 hrs on a FSM kit unless it is the John Allen special. I did the icehouse in about 20 hr, 5 of which was planing upgrades like I didn't like the two peice deck.
My thought is, who counts hours when your working on your hobby? and why?
Mike.
My You Tube
Bayfield Transfer RailwayAnd I'm going to stick my dinkie in the meat grinder here and suggest that this hobby overfetishizes decay. I saw the NMRA Bulletin featuring the convention's winning models 4 or 5 years ago, and not a single winning entry was of something in good condition. And I don't mean "weathered," or "beat up" -- I mean out and out derelict. Anybody looking in from the outside would think we were modeling urban blight, not railroads.
I also agree with you.
Personally, when I build in wood I make it look in good condition like it's currently being used.
As for collecting kits, well I do sort of. I have a fair number of kits, but they were all bought with the idea that eventually I'll build them.
Paul
rrebell How did you spend 100 hrs on a FSM kit unless it is the John Allen special. I did the icehouse in about 20 hr, 5 of which was planing upgrades like I didn't like the two peice deck.
Good for you, I don't know that I could build that kit in 20 hours.
And, I think a lot of the later, larger models could easily be 50 to 100 hour projects.
I find that hesitation uses more time than anything. Lets face it the walls of the kit get braced (quickly if you have a chopper), I acc them to the sides and I stain once built, then maybe dry brush or ... Roofs take the most time but I do several at the same time and leave the overhangs toll done then trim (unless that can't be done for some reason).
rrebell I find that hesitation uses more time than anything. Lets face it the walls of the kit get braced (quickly if you have a chopper), I acc them to the sides and I stain once built, then maybe dry brush or ... Roofs take the most time but I do several at the same time and leave the overhangs toll done then trim (unless that can't be done for some reason).
Well, since I don't model "run down and neglected", my models get painted. Maybe that's where I spend more time......
I'm also not much for ACC, wood glue and 5 minute epoxy are my weapons of choice.
garyaYou're luckier than me. Still waiting for the deals on the brass I want.
.
I just wantyed standard USRA designs, so it was pretty easy.
Good luck.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Jumijo Bayfield Transfer Railway And I'm going to stick my dinkie in the meat grinder here and suggest that this hobby overfetishizes decay. I saw the NMRA Bulletin featuring the convention's winning models 4 or 5 years ago, and not a single winning entry was of something in good condition. And I don't mean "weathered," or "beat up" -- I mean out and out derelict.Anybody looking in from the outside would think we were modeling urban blight, not railroads. While many consider Selios' F&SM a masterpiece, my biggest criticism of it is that the entire layout is uniformly over-weathered. I've never seen any urban area where every building is equally dilapidated. Some would be kept in poor shape, but many others would be freshly painted, while still others would be anywhere in-between.
Though what you say is probably true, I am in the opposite camp. I could be considered more into dioramas than true model railroading, though I love the action of the trains. When I was young and building my ping pong table empire I quickly fell in love with the idea that I was creating a world of my own. The Tyco and Life Like structures my grandparents gave me to add to it were the pinnacle. Heck, they were even molded in color!
Then one day on summer vacation my mother let me borrow some Model Railroader magazines from the library and I saw the Franklin and South Manchester for the first time. It completely blew my mind and set the stage. I admit and agree from adult eyes that it is over weathered and a bit of caricature. However, my interests are more in the artistic and creative side of it all as opposed to reality so what can I do? I was hooked.
That said and to get on topic, I never have built a FSM kit as they are usually out of the price range I want to spend on one. If the prices are indeed dropping I see it as a wonderful opportunity to try it out.
Off topic as far as FSM kits go, but I have noticed that on Ebay, many "craftsman" kits, that portray a similar building condition, as the FSM kits, have also been dropping in price.
One that really caught my attention is the RDA kits. Usually a minimum of $40+ to $60 and $70 tops, are now starting in the $20. range. A few BIN for the mid $20's.
Back to FSM !
mbinsewi Off topic as far as FSM kits go, but I have noticed that on Ebay, many "craftsman" kits, that portray a similar building condition, as the FSM kits, have also been dropping in price. One that really caught my attention is the RDA kits. Usually a minimum of $40+ to $60 and $70 tops, are now starting in the $20. range. A few BIN for the mid $20's. Back to FSM ! Mike.
schief Jumijo Bayfield Transfer Railway And I'm going to stick my dinkie in the meat grinder here and suggest that this hobby overfetishizes decay. I saw the NMRA Bulletin featuring the convention's winning models 4 or 5 years ago, and not a single winning entry was of something in good condition. And I don't mean "weathered," or "beat up" -- I mean out and out derelict.Anybody looking in from the outside would think we were modeling urban blight, not railroads. While many consider Selios' F&SM a masterpiece, my biggest criticism of it is that the entire layout is uniformly over-weathered. I've never seen any urban area where every building is equally dilapidated. Some would be kept in poor shape, but many others would be freshly painted, while still others would be anywhere in-between. Though what you say is probably true, I am in the opposite camp. I could be considered more into dioramas than true model railroading, though I love the action of the trains. When I was young and building my ping pong table empire I quickly fell in love with the idea that I was creating a world of my own. The Tyco and Life Like structures my grandparents gave me to add to it were the pinnacle. Heck, they were even molded in color! Then one day on summer vacation my mother let me borrow some Model Railroader magazines from the library and I saw the Franklin and South Manchester for the first time. It completely blew my mind and set the stage. I admit and agree from adult eyes that it is over weathered and a bit of caricature. However, my interests are more in the artistic and creative side of it all as opposed to reality so what can I do? I was hooked. That said and to get on topic, I never have built a FSM kit as they are usually out of the price range I want to spend on one. If the prices are indeed dropping I see it as a wonderful opportunity to try it out.
rrebell I don't know about over weathered or over caricatued, I spent alot of time walking city streets and railroad right of ways. If you lived in an area of coal fired steam trains it would look very grity near the tracks, look pretty grity on diesel too and some of the weird buildings I have seen, these don't look any different than many I have seen in California and on the east coast. Just walk the tenderloin in San Francisco and our model scenes need way more dirt and clutter.
I don't know about over weathered or over caricatued, I spent alot of time walking city streets and railroad right of ways. If you lived in an area of coal fired steam trains it would look very grity near the tracks, look pretty grity on diesel too and some of the weird buildings I have seen, these don't look any different than many I have seen in California and on the east coast. Just walk the tenderloin in San Francisco and our model scenes need way more dirt and clutter.
OK, I will offer some more thoughts.
Yes, big cities always have their rough areas, and rural areas often have some abandoned decayed property.
But most of us are modeling in 1/87 scale. When I stand and look at a layout from three feet away, that is 261 scale feet.
The overall impression of most things from 261 feet is different than if you are right up on it close.
Up close every flaw is more apparent, 200, or 300, or 500 feet away we just see "general condition".
I'm not building an 18" wide shelf layout that only models the right of way of a railroad, most of my scenery is 300 to 400 scale feet deep. With a little selective compression, the idea is to model some stuff not considered "close" to the tracks.
And even in industrial areas, new stuff gets built, buildings get refurbished, weeds get cut from time to time, roads get paved, etc, etc, - not everything is run down at the same time. That is my gripe with the "F&SM style".
Like several earlier posters stated, it is the uniform extreme decay that is just as unrealistic as everything being "shinny new".
Right now here in Baltimore, they have torn down the GM plant and the steel mill and replaced them with "shinny new" industrial buildings - it will be decades before they look "old".
So if one models 1954, then things built in 1944 are still in pretty good shape, but will have some dirt. Things built in 1952 will still look fairly pristine, Things built in the late thirties will be worn, but not necessarily decayed.
And so on......
John-NYBWMy biggest gripe with craftsman kits is that some of them are nothing more than a box of sticks and a plan. I have to cut the scale lumber to size and cut the openings for the windows and door in walls. What am I paying for? I might as well scratchbuild if I'm going to go that route.
Being that I don't use plans; I agree, I looked in a box once and it looked just like my stash of wood.
I beleive it takes more time,imagination,and skill to model a rundown,used abandoned building, then a newly built/painted, well maintaind one.
Certainly weathering can be over done. Having one or two dilapidated structures might make sense but I see no sense in making everything run down. Such structures do exist in the real world but most of them get torn down to make way for something new.
As for the John Allen enginehouse, I model the 1950s and it will be appropriate at the terminus of my branchline which operates with two 4-6-0 steamers.
If you look at the way the layout Franklin and South Manchester is built, alot of the buildings are very close to the walkway. My last layout was about 18" at most and some as close as an inch or two. It was a large layout but not very deep. Modeled the 1930's too so not as well maintained.
rrebell If you look at the way the layout Franklin and South Manchester is built, alot of the buildings are very close to the walkway. My last layout was about 18" at most and some as close as an inch or two. It was a large layout but not very deep. Modeled the 1930's too so not as well maintained.
I have to ask the obvious question, because I have looked at photos from the 1930's.
Sure, some things did fall into disrepair as the decade marched on, but please someone explain to me how, a building just built in the height of prosperity in 1928 lets say, could be in that bad of condition just 6 years later in 1934 which was the height of the depression?
The world did not stop moving on Oct 29, 1929. It took years for the effects to come into full play and for unemployment to reach a staggering 25% - that's right 75% of the people still had jobs......
From December 1927 to March 1932, FORD sold 4,858,644 shinny new Model A's, I suspect you will tell me they were all rusted and falling apart over night?
I submit that it is largely a myth that the whole world somehow fell apart mechanically because the stock market crashed.
Wooden buildings painted with oil paint did not need repainting every 6 years, so if a building was in reasonable condition in 1929, it is pretty likely that it would NOT be a weather beaten bare wood disaster by 1934 or even 1938.
It is a romantic myth by those who like to wallow in misery.
And so I submit there would still be a mix of conditions, not the F&SM "we all live in rat hole with no self pride to even pick up the trash".
In some of the more recent stories (past five years or-so) I've read about Selios and the F&SM he mentions that he is "re-thinking" the look of desperation and redesigning some areas of the layout for better operations and less cluttered scenery.
I recall many of the early ideas I had in the planning stages of my layout and I'm glad I didn't follow through on some of them
Cheers, Ed
Well, whatever this has to do with the whole theme of this thread, my ancesters, on my Mother's side, were all mason and concrete contractors, along with whatever projects they decided to tackle, and during the depression, they owed nobody anything, owned all their equipment, and materials, as they made their own block and brick, and still worked, and hired people. My Granddad told about making the block, and he got paid from his dad, $0.15 per block.
What pictures survive, show a very nice life, and new Fords, and an engineering degree at a prominent Milwaukee college for my Granddad.
On my father's side, it was all about farming, and they did fine, as well.
I am tired of seeing the "run down" being modeled, that's why I don't model it, and never considered it. I like "current".
But I digress, back to the FSM topic.
We are talking about builds near the tracks, people in gerneral don't live near the tracks. Also we are talking steam era in a coal area, Believe me that smoke gets everywhere. I remember taking out lath and plaster in Baltimore and black dust was everywhere, you would turn black from removing it, and that was just soot from gas lamps. Even when I was a kid and walked the rails, there was dirt and grime everywhere and that was after diesel took over. I live at least 400 ft around a corner or two from the main roadway where I live, and you would not beleive the amount of grime that has accumilated outside our house on the walls and awnings, imagine being next to a railroad track with coal fired steamers.
JumijoWhile many consider Selios' F&SM a masterpiece, my biggest criticism of it is that the entire layout is uniformly over-weathered. I've never seen any urban area where every building is equally dilapidated.
I always thought the F&SM was simliar to "Sweethaven" in the movie "Popeye".
During the great depression life went on and Ford,Chevy and other car makers was still producing cars and trucks. Railroads was still hauling freight and passengers. Millions of people was still gainfully employed.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIEI always thought the F&SM was simliar to "Sweethaven" in the movie "Popeye".
Perfect Larry! You nailed it. Excellent comparison. I forgot all about the movie! I'm going to have to watch it again.
BRAKIE Jumijo While many consider Selios' F&SM a masterpiece, my biggest criticism of it is that the entire layout is uniformly over-weathered. I've never seen any urban area where every building is equally dilapidated. I always thought the F&SM was simliar to "Sweethaven" in the movie "Popeye". During the great depression life went on and Ford,Chevy and other car makers was still producing cars and trucks. Railroads was still hauling freight and passengers. Millions of people was still gainfully employed.
Jumijo While many consider Selios' F&SM a masterpiece, my biggest criticism of it is that the entire layout is uniformly over-weathered. I've never seen any urban area where every building is equally dilapidated.
rrebell,
Well here where I live in rural Havre de Grace, MD, I am only about 10 minutes from the city of Aberdeen and the city proper of Havre de Grace.
The AMTRAK (ex PRR) and CSX (ex B&O) mainlines run right through both of these small cities. Peoples houses are near the tracks.
The AMTRAK line is elevated on fill as it goes thru downtown Havre de Grace, right before it crosses the Susquehanna River with a series of bridges, some steel, some stone arch, allowing the street grid to pass under it.
My Daughter and grandchildren walk out their front door and one such bridge is less than a block away on their street. They have a clear view of every train that goes by.
Is their neighborhood new?, is it squeeky clean?, no. But it's a far cry from any George Selios ever created. It's a working class neighborhood in a 234 year old city. The house they live in was built in 1840.
But the buildings have paint/color, there are few derilect buildings in the whole town, the steets are clean and generally in good repair. People there work hard and care about their city.
Aberdeen is similar.
Both towns have their "poor" sections, but even those areas look like the pristine suburbs compared to the F&SM.
I should take some pictures. AND, I have seen lots of historical pictures of these towns, they were not dumps 50 or 100 years ago either.
And, my previous home in Forest Hill, MD, this one:
This house is only eight houses from where the old Ma & Pa mainline cut diagonally thru the main intersection of that village, and then the tracks curved around behind this house passing only about 700' behind it on their way to PA.
This house was built in 1901 by a prominent business man and is just one of a number of large Queen Anne and Colonial Revival houses in the village.
The tracks are gone, but the train station remains, restored and in use as a model train shop for the last 25 years.
Not everything near a train track is a dump........
AND, there is a BIG difference between DIRT, or normal weathering, vs the kind of DECAY on the F&SM.
I weather my models to what I feel is a realistic degree, I don't model much total nelgect and decay, be it the trains or the structures.
So with some reasonable selective compression, a model of my Queen Anne pictured above could be a few doors down the block from a small village center, with a train station and post office just like it has been here for 118 years.
One last thought, no one has suggested that NOTHING in the world ever looked like the F&SM. We are just challenging the idea that EVERYTHING ever looked that way all at the same time.