gmpullmanPeople seem to be willing to shell out $50-100 for those Menards "Plasticville" buildings, too! Throw about 25¢ worth of blinking/flashing LEDs on them and they fly off the shelves.
Ed,This building looks fimliar but,I can't place it.
https://www.menards.com/main/home-decor/menards-collectibles/train-stuff-from-menards/train-stuff/home-decor/menards-collectibles/train-stuff-from-menards/train-stuff/ho-scale-vetter-sash-door/2795018/p-1506580368257-c-13318.htm?tid=-2402696447629443947&ipos=1
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I noticed the Melards craze too, good for them.
dknelsonBUT many many vendors were offering assembled structures for what struck me as very high prices, and some of those structure kits had been butchered with globs of cement. Really mediocre work.
People seem to be willing to shell out $50-100 for those Menards "Plasticville" buildings, too! Throw about 25¢ worth of blinking/flashing LEDs on them and they fly off the shelves.
Here's a "Power Plant" built in a car wash or Jiffy-Lube?
https://www.menards.com/main/home-decor/menards-collectibles/train-stuff-from-menards/train-stuff/ho-scale-menards-reg-power-light/2795004/p-1447438921743.htm
I'll pass, thank you. Meanwhile, I have been getting new-old stock kits, both structures and rolling stock, as you point out, at pennies on the dollar.
Diff'rent strokes...
Ed
This might or might not be OT - I'll let you decide - but at this weekend's Titletown Train Show in Green Bay WI I noticed an interesting phenomenon: a few vendors had HO plastic structure kits at very reasonable prices (the Walthers Ranch Tract House $10, the Walthers Cape Cod house $10, Walthers Four Unit Apartment House $10, the Atlas Kim's Classic American Home kit $19.75, and I probably could have bargained that one down a bit) and other than the ones I bought, the same kits were sitting at those prices when the show closed Sunday pm as I saw being sold when the show opened Saturday am.
BUT many many vendors were offering assembled structures for what struck me as very high prices, and some of those structure kits had been butchered with globs of cement. Really mediocre work. And people were buying, seemingly without regard to price or quality of construction, or the availability of the same structure as a kit for less money (or even the availability of the same structure assembled by someone else at the show for less money). In the past I have seen poorly-done assembled kits being sold for less than the kit because they usually represent an estate sale situation. Not this weekend.
OK I know (and we have much-discussed, including the OP who started this thread) that more and more people want RTR and pre built, and I accept that fact, but still, these were all plastic kits of fairly recent vintage, not hard to build, good quality. Old kits were being sold cheaply as well, including some Life-Like, IHC, Tyco, and Con Cor kits that have a certain "cult" following among kit bashers and hence are desired (or have been in recent years) often all out of proportion to their intrinsic merits. And they too seemed to be just sitting there.
I offer this up to suggest that maybe the market crash in FSM kit prices has less to do with the difficulty level, the presence of wood, the era, and a change in regard for George Sellios's style of modeling, and more to do with the simple fact that they are kits. Period.
At least for now it seems to be a good time to be a kit builder and kit basher. Kit seller? Maybe not so good.
Dave Nelson
PS Can't resist mentioning: bought an Accurail TTCX 89' TOFC flatcar kit for $1 (it was marked $2 but the show was ready to close). Reason why it was so cheap? The Accu-mate couplers (which I discard anyway) and one truck were missing.
Hey and condos there cost $750,000.00 now. People pay $700 a month for a small room with no window (I know it is illegal).
So, out of curiosity, I had to check out this tenderloin district. Google images.
Yep, every city has it's tenderloin, or two. I won't get into Milwaukee's "tenderloins", too far off topic.
That's why I've always been a country boy, cities and me, don't agree.
Mike.
My You Tube
Visit the Tenderloin in San Francisco, you will find what you seek and it looks 50% better than it did 10 years ago and it is nowhere near a railroad. I used to walk the rails to school as a kid, and it was bad and we were nowhere near the city.
To best understand what I feel is overdone about the F&SM, just watch a video or two of Howard Zane's Piermont Division layout.
Howard's use of color and texture is similar to George, but with more defined colors.
Howard's building are weathered, some heavily, but few are in "disrepair". On the F&SM every third roof you see looks like it leaks...........
Howard's weathering is not uniform on all structures, making some buildings look clearly older, while others look newer.
Another example of excellent scenrey/structures is the Severna Park Model Railroad Club, published in MR a number of times. Photos of that layout can be seen on Facebook and one video on Youtube.
The differences are subtle, but there is a difference that makes these other layouts more realistic and believable.
Sheldon
I just chalk it up to creative license.
I loaned out my F&SM videos and never got them back (they were VHS and I don't have a player anyway). My memory is not of everything being dilapitated. He had some and maybe overdid it in places but certainly not all his structures were like that. He also had a tendency to overdetail with clutter and junk but that's modeler's license. On the whole I have always been impressed and inspired by his work and have tried to do similar things on my layout on a smaller scale. The few FSM kits I built have been outstanding and the modeler has the option of making them as detailed and weathered as he chooses. The right amount of weathering is whatever looks right to the modeler's eye.
Aside from USRA brass steam locomotives, and Fine Scale Miniature model kits, which other formerly highly-collected and highly-prices items are coming down in price?
.
I think I have everything I need for my layout now, so I probably will not be participating much in future price drops.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
One last thought, no one has suggested that NOTHING in the world ever looked like the F&SM. We are just challenging the idea that EVERYTHING ever looked that way all at the same time.
rrebell,
Well here where I live in rural Havre de Grace, MD, I am only about 10 minutes from the city of Aberdeen and the city proper of Havre de Grace.
The AMTRAK (ex PRR) and CSX (ex B&O) mainlines run right through both of these small cities. Peoples houses are near the tracks.
The AMTRAK line is elevated on fill as it goes thru downtown Havre de Grace, right before it crosses the Susquehanna River with a series of bridges, some steel, some stone arch, allowing the street grid to pass under it.
My Daughter and grandchildren walk out their front door and one such bridge is less than a block away on their street. They have a clear view of every train that goes by.
Is their neighborhood new?, is it squeeky clean?, no. But it's a far cry from any George Selios ever created. It's a working class neighborhood in a 234 year old city. The house they live in was built in 1840.
But the buildings have paint/color, there are few derilect buildings in the whole town, the steets are clean and generally in good repair. People there work hard and care about their city.
Aberdeen is similar.
Both towns have their "poor" sections, but even those areas look like the pristine suburbs compared to the F&SM.
I should take some pictures. AND, I have seen lots of historical pictures of these towns, they were not dumps 50 or 100 years ago either.
And, my previous home in Forest Hill, MD, this one:
This house is only eight houses from where the old Ma & Pa mainline cut diagonally thru the main intersection of that village, and then the tracks curved around behind this house passing only about 700' behind it on their way to PA.
This house was built in 1901 by a prominent business man and is just one of a number of large Queen Anne and Colonial Revival houses in the village.
The tracks are gone, but the train station remains, restored and in use as a model train shop for the last 25 years.
Not everything near a train track is a dump........
AND, there is a BIG difference between DIRT, or normal weathering, vs the kind of DECAY on the F&SM.
I weather my models to what I feel is a realistic degree, I don't model much total nelgect and decay, be it the trains or the structures.
So with some reasonable selective compression, a model of my Queen Anne pictured above could be a few doors down the block from a small village center, with a train station and post office just like it has been here for 118 years.
BRAKIE Jumijo While many consider Selios' F&SM a masterpiece, my biggest criticism of it is that the entire layout is uniformly over-weathered. I've never seen any urban area where every building is equally dilapidated. I always thought the F&SM was simliar to "Sweethaven" in the movie "Popeye". During the great depression life went on and Ford,Chevy and other car makers was still producing cars and trucks. Railroads was still hauling freight and passengers. Millions of people was still gainfully employed.
Jumijo While many consider Selios' F&SM a masterpiece, my biggest criticism of it is that the entire layout is uniformly over-weathered. I've never seen any urban area where every building is equally dilapidated.
I always thought the F&SM was simliar to "Sweethaven" in the movie "Popeye".
During the great depression life went on and Ford,Chevy and other car makers was still producing cars and trucks. Railroads was still hauling freight and passengers. Millions of people was still gainfully employed.
BRAKIEI always thought the F&SM was simliar to "Sweethaven" in the movie "Popeye".
Perfect Larry! You nailed it. Excellent comparison. I forgot all about the movie! I'm going to have to watch it again.
JumijoWhile many consider Selios' F&SM a masterpiece, my biggest criticism of it is that the entire layout is uniformly over-weathered. I've never seen any urban area where every building is equally dilapidated.
We are talking about builds near the tracks, people in gerneral don't live near the tracks. Also we are talking steam era in a coal area, Believe me that smoke gets everywhere. I remember taking out lath and plaster in Baltimore and black dust was everywhere, you would turn black from removing it, and that was just soot from gas lamps. Even when I was a kid and walked the rails, there was dirt and grime everywhere and that was after diesel took over. I live at least 400 ft around a corner or two from the main roadway where I live, and you would not beleive the amount of grime that has accumilated outside our house on the walls and awnings, imagine being next to a railroad track with coal fired steamers.
Well, whatever this has to do with the whole theme of this thread, my ancesters, on my Mother's side, were all mason and concrete contractors, along with whatever projects they decided to tackle, and during the depression, they owed nobody anything, owned all their equipment, and materials, as they made their own block and brick, and still worked, and hired people. My Granddad told about making the block, and he got paid from his dad, $0.15 per block.
What pictures survive, show a very nice life, and new Fords, and an engineering degree at a prominent Milwaukee college for my Granddad.
On my father's side, it was all about farming, and they did fine, as well.
I am tired of seeing the "run down" being modeled, that's why I don't model it, and never considered it. I like "current".
But I digress, back to the FSM topic.
In some of the more recent stories (past five years or-so) I've read about Selios and the F&SM he mentions that he is "re-thinking" the look of desperation and redesigning some areas of the layout for better operations and less cluttered scenery.
I recall many of the early ideas I had in the planning stages of my layout and I'm glad I didn't follow through on some of them
Cheers, Ed
rrebell If you look at the way the layout Franklin and South Manchester is built, alot of the buildings are very close to the walkway. My last layout was about 18" at most and some as close as an inch or two. It was a large layout but not very deep. Modeled the 1930's too so not as well maintained.
If you look at the way the layout Franklin and South Manchester is built, alot of the buildings are very close to the walkway. My last layout was about 18" at most and some as close as an inch or two. It was a large layout but not very deep. Modeled the 1930's too so not as well maintained.
I have to ask the obvious question, because I have looked at photos from the 1930's.
Sure, some things did fall into disrepair as the decade marched on, but please someone explain to me how, a building just built in the height of prosperity in 1928 lets say, could be in that bad of condition just 6 years later in 1934 which was the height of the depression?
The world did not stop moving on Oct 29, 1929. It took years for the effects to come into full play and for unemployment to reach a staggering 25% - that's right 75% of the people still had jobs......
From December 1927 to March 1932, FORD sold 4,858,644 shinny new Model A's, I suspect you will tell me they were all rusted and falling apart over night?
I submit that it is largely a myth that the whole world somehow fell apart mechanically because the stock market crashed.
Wooden buildings painted with oil paint did not need repainting every 6 years, so if a building was in reasonable condition in 1929, it is pretty likely that it would NOT be a weather beaten bare wood disaster by 1934 or even 1938.
It is a romantic myth by those who like to wallow in misery.
And so I submit there would still be a mix of conditions, not the F&SM "we all live in rat hole with no self pride to even pick up the trash".
Bayfield Transfer Railway Besides being an operator first, another reason I have no interest in FSM kits is that I don't model the early 20th century; somebody already mentioned this upthread.Like the "John Allen's Enginehouse" kit. It would be supremely out of place on my 1980s railroad. And for those keeping score at home, the 1980s were over 30 years ago; they ARE "the old days."And I'm going to stick my dinkie in the meat grinder here and suggest that this hobby overfetishizes decay. I saw the NMRA Bulletin featuring the convention's winning models 4 or 5 years ago, and not a single winning entry was of something in good condition. And I don't mean "weathered," or "beat up" -- I mean out and out derelict.Anybody looking in from the outside would think we were modeling urban blight, not railroads.
Besides being an operator first, another reason I have no interest in FSM kits is that I don't model the early 20th century; somebody already mentioned this upthread.Like the "John Allen's Enginehouse" kit. It would be supremely out of place on my 1980s railroad. And for those keeping score at home, the 1980s were over 30 years ago; they ARE "the old days."And I'm going to stick my dinkie in the meat grinder here and suggest that this hobby overfetishizes decay. I saw the NMRA Bulletin featuring the convention's winning models 4 or 5 years ago, and not a single winning entry was of something in good condition. And I don't mean "weathered," or "beat up" -- I mean out and out derelict.Anybody looking in from the outside would think we were modeling urban blight, not railroads.
Certainly weathering can be over done. Having one or two dilapidated structures might make sense but I see no sense in making everything run down. Such structures do exist in the real world but most of them get torn down to make way for something new.
As for the John Allen enginehouse, I model the 1950s and it will be appropriate at the terminus of my branchline which operates with two 4-6-0 steamers.
John-NYBWMy biggest gripe with craftsman kits is that some of them are nothing more than a box of sticks and a plan. I have to cut the scale lumber to size and cut the openings for the windows and door in walls. What am I paying for? I might as well scratchbuild if I'm going to go that route.
Being that I don't use plans; I agree, I looked in a box once and it looked just like my stash of wood.
I beleive it takes more time,imagination,and skill to model a rundown,used abandoned building, then a newly built/painted, well maintaind one.
rrebell I don't know about over weathered or over caricatued, I spent alot of time walking city streets and railroad right of ways. If you lived in an area of coal fired steam trains it would look very grity near the tracks, look pretty grity on diesel too and some of the weird buildings I have seen, these don't look any different than many I have seen in California and on the east coast. Just walk the tenderloin in San Francisco and our model scenes need way more dirt and clutter.
I don't know about over weathered or over caricatued, I spent alot of time walking city streets and railroad right of ways. If you lived in an area of coal fired steam trains it would look very grity near the tracks, look pretty grity on diesel too and some of the weird buildings I have seen, these don't look any different than many I have seen in California and on the east coast. Just walk the tenderloin in San Francisco and our model scenes need way more dirt and clutter.
OK, I will offer some more thoughts.
Yes, big cities always have their rough areas, and rural areas often have some abandoned decayed property.
But most of us are modeling in 1/87 scale. When I stand and look at a layout from three feet away, that is 261 scale feet.
The overall impression of most things from 261 feet is different than if you are right up on it close.
Up close every flaw is more apparent, 200, or 300, or 500 feet away we just see "general condition".
I'm not building an 18" wide shelf layout that only models the right of way of a railroad, most of my scenery is 300 to 400 scale feet deep. With a little selective compression, the idea is to model some stuff not considered "close" to the tracks.
And even in industrial areas, new stuff gets built, buildings get refurbished, weeds get cut from time to time, roads get paved, etc, etc, - not everything is run down at the same time. That is my gripe with the "F&SM style".
Like several earlier posters stated, it is the uniform extreme decay that is just as unrealistic as everything being "shinny new".
Right now here in Baltimore, they have torn down the GM plant and the steel mill and replaced them with "shinny new" industrial buildings - it will be decades before they look "old".
So if one models 1954, then things built in 1944 are still in pretty good shape, but will have some dirt. Things built in 1952 will still look fairly pristine, Things built in the late thirties will be worn, but not necessarily decayed.
And so on......
schief Jumijo Bayfield Transfer Railway And I'm going to stick my dinkie in the meat grinder here and suggest that this hobby overfetishizes decay. I saw the NMRA Bulletin featuring the convention's winning models 4 or 5 years ago, and not a single winning entry was of something in good condition. And I don't mean "weathered," or "beat up" -- I mean out and out derelict.Anybody looking in from the outside would think we were modeling urban blight, not railroads. While many consider Selios' F&SM a masterpiece, my biggest criticism of it is that the entire layout is uniformly over-weathered. I've never seen any urban area where every building is equally dilapidated. Some would be kept in poor shape, but many others would be freshly painted, while still others would be anywhere in-between. Though what you say is probably true, I am in the opposite camp. I could be considered more into dioramas than true model railroading, though I love the action of the trains. When I was young and building my ping pong table empire I quickly fell in love with the idea that I was creating a world of my own. The Tyco and Life Like structures my grandparents gave me to add to it were the pinnacle. Heck, they were even molded in color! Then one day on summer vacation my mother let me borrow some Model Railroader magazines from the library and I saw the Franklin and South Manchester for the first time. It completely blew my mind and set the stage. I admit and agree from adult eyes that it is over weathered and a bit of caricature. However, my interests are more in the artistic and creative side of it all as opposed to reality so what can I do? I was hooked. That said and to get on topic, I never have built a FSM kit as they are usually out of the price range I want to spend on one. If the prices are indeed dropping I see it as a wonderful opportunity to try it out.
Jumijo Bayfield Transfer Railway And I'm going to stick my dinkie in the meat grinder here and suggest that this hobby overfetishizes decay. I saw the NMRA Bulletin featuring the convention's winning models 4 or 5 years ago, and not a single winning entry was of something in good condition. And I don't mean "weathered," or "beat up" -- I mean out and out derelict.Anybody looking in from the outside would think we were modeling urban blight, not railroads. While many consider Selios' F&SM a masterpiece, my biggest criticism of it is that the entire layout is uniformly over-weathered. I've never seen any urban area where every building is equally dilapidated. Some would be kept in poor shape, but many others would be freshly painted, while still others would be anywhere in-between.
Bayfield Transfer Railway And I'm going to stick my dinkie in the meat grinder here and suggest that this hobby overfetishizes decay. I saw the NMRA Bulletin featuring the convention's winning models 4 or 5 years ago, and not a single winning entry was of something in good condition. And I don't mean "weathered," or "beat up" -- I mean out and out derelict.Anybody looking in from the outside would think we were modeling urban blight, not railroads.
And I'm going to stick my dinkie in the meat grinder here and suggest that this hobby overfetishizes decay. I saw the NMRA Bulletin featuring the convention's winning models 4 or 5 years ago, and not a single winning entry was of something in good condition. And I don't mean "weathered," or "beat up" -- I mean out and out derelict.Anybody looking in from the outside would think we were modeling urban blight, not railroads.
While many consider Selios' F&SM a masterpiece, my biggest criticism of it is that the entire layout is uniformly over-weathered. I've never seen any urban area where every building is equally dilapidated. Some would be kept in poor shape, but many others would be freshly painted, while still others would be anywhere in-between.
Though what you say is probably true, I am in the opposite camp. I could be considered more into dioramas than true model railroading, though I love the action of the trains. When I was young and building my ping pong table empire I quickly fell in love with the idea that I was creating a world of my own. The Tyco and Life Like structures my grandparents gave me to add to it were the pinnacle. Heck, they were even molded in color!
Then one day on summer vacation my mother let me borrow some Model Railroader magazines from the library and I saw the Franklin and South Manchester for the first time. It completely blew my mind and set the stage. I admit and agree from adult eyes that it is over weathered and a bit of caricature. However, my interests are more in the artistic and creative side of it all as opposed to reality so what can I do? I was hooked.
That said and to get on topic, I never have built a FSM kit as they are usually out of the price range I want to spend on one. If the prices are indeed dropping I see it as a wonderful opportunity to try it out.
mbinsewi Off topic as far as FSM kits go, but I have noticed that on Ebay, many "craftsman" kits, that portray a similar building condition, as the FSM kits, have also been dropping in price. One that really caught my attention is the RDA kits. Usually a minimum of $40+ to $60 and $70 tops, are now starting in the $20. range. A few BIN for the mid $20's. Back to FSM ! Mike.
Off topic as far as FSM kits go, but I have noticed that on Ebay, many "craftsman" kits, that portray a similar building condition, as the FSM kits, have also been dropping in price.
One that really caught my attention is the RDA kits. Usually a minimum of $40+ to $60 and $70 tops, are now starting in the $20. range. A few BIN for the mid $20's.
Back to FSM !
garyaYou're luckier than me. Still waiting for the deals on the brass I want.
I just wantyed standard USRA designs, so it was pretty easy.
Good luck.