Douglas,
I have to agree with your analysis of the demise of the Blue Box kit.
I will add a few thoughts:
First, over the last 10-15 years, the price structure of the RTR line is roughly equal to the inflation adjusted price structure of the Blue box kits if you use the 1970's as your base line.
Athearn expanded the Blue Box line considerably in the 1970's, and raised prices to cover the costs. From there on out, Blue Box kit prices did not keep pace with inflation. Athearn was in a strong position and used that to dominate the market with lower prices than the other easy to build plastic freight cars on the market.
So when RTR came along, Blue Box kit prices were artificially low. That sitiuation was not going to work much longer.
Next point - a large percentage of the original 1990's/early 2000's RTR line was nothing more than assembled Blue Box kits with metal wheels and better paint jobs.
Those items are now being rebranded into the Roundhouse line, but the fact remains that Athearn still produces almost all of the Blue Box line as RTR under one label or the other.
Many other RTR items are Model Die Casting tooling from the late 80's and early 90's.
Only a portion of the RTR line is relatively new tooling developed for that line, most came in some form from previous products.
To those who model more modern eras this is less obvious because most of the Blue Box line represented prototypes from the 30's thru the 70's.
So it was going to be very market painful to sell both kits and RTR of the same items for the same price, as you suggest.
Sheldon
As far as the basic kits vs ready-to-run issue, I believe one manufacturer indicated that any savings due to not having to assemble the kit at the point of manufacture was eaten up by extra costs in ensuring that all the parts were included in the box. The most certain way to ensure completeness is to ship it fully assembled.
Hi Douglas--
Not saying that I totally agree with everything, but the logic of your above post does read as being plausible.
John
riogrande5761 ... just because high end products sell, doesn't mean they are in high demand, or were in more demand than the lower end products. Lets look at that supposition. Why the heck would a manufacturer not respond to the market demand? Looking at the last 20 years production of higher detail models on the market have steadily risen while the production of lower end products has declined, and in the case of Athearn blue box, were discontinued entirely in Oct 2009 per the Athearn wiki. I don't know but actions seem to tell the story. I'm not saying there isn't demand for lower end products, but I am saying the proportion has gone through a fundemental shift simply by observing what has been made vs what is being made. So if we say that Athearn Genesis took off and put Athean BB out of business because the "market" (defined as more modelers) demanded it, think again. I wonder how Athearn defines market? Here is the excerpt: "Effective immediately, we here at Athearn have made the difficult decision to discontinue the production of our Blue Box line of kits. There were several factors that contributed to this extremely challenging decision however, the primary issue revolved around affordability and ensuring that our Blue Box kit pricing remain aligned with what the market can bear. Unfortunately, due to increased manufacturing and labor costs it has been determined that we are no longer able to continue offering kits at competitive price points as compared to our already assembled products." It sounds like Athearn did not think the market could bear them selling blue box kits at the price they deemed they would have to sell them at to still make a profit. If you disagree, tell me what you think they meant.
... just because high end products sell, doesn't mean they are in high demand, or were in more demand than the lower end products.
Lets look at that supposition. Why the heck would a manufacturer not respond to the market demand? Looking at the last 20 years production of higher detail models on the market have steadily risen while the production of lower end products has declined, and in the case of Athearn blue box, were discontinued entirely in Oct 2009 per the Athearn wiki. I don't know but actions seem to tell the story.
I'm not saying there isn't demand for lower end products, but I am saying the proportion has gone through a fundemental shift simply by observing what has been made vs what is being made.
So if we say that Athearn Genesis took off and put Athean BB out of business because the "market" (defined as more modelers) demanded it, think again.
I wonder how Athearn defines market? Here is the excerpt:
"Effective immediately, we here at Athearn have made the difficult decision to discontinue the production of our Blue Box line of kits. There were several factors that contributed to this extremely challenging decision however, the primary issue revolved around affordability and ensuring that our Blue Box kit pricing remain aligned with what the market can bear. Unfortunately, due to increased manufacturing and labor costs it has been determined that we are no longer able to continue offering kits at competitive price points as compared to our already assembled products."
It sounds like Athearn did not think the market could bear them selling blue box kits at the price they deemed they would have to sell them at to still make a profit. If you disagree, tell me what you think they meant.
Jim, I deleted my previous post to respond to this excerpt more clearly. Here is what I think they meant.
Athearn launched the Genesis line and needed to invest in new tooling, wire detail supply chains, metal wheel supply chains, better painting equipment, and labor to assemble the Genesis products. Because these items are coming on line, they could spread out the costs of these expensive investments by also using these resources to assemble the BB kits, aka RTR.
Essentially, the cost of the RTR cars became subsidized relative to what those costs would have been if RTR was produced without a Genesis line. There is no way that Athearn could make those investments just to add details and assemble the BB kits and have them remotely be in the same price point as the BB.
When they say Unfortunately, due to increased manufacturing and labor costs it has been determined that we are no longer able to continue offering kits at competitive price points as compared to our already assembled products."
That means they can offer the RTR products for nearly the cost of the BB kit, and they determined that hardly anybody would choose BB over RTR given the price points. And the market will not bear both products being sold concurrently.
That does not mean that customers no longer desired BB kits at their prices.
It means that given the option of a competing product on the shelves at that (subsidized) RTR price point, BB kits would not be chosen. Not to mention the fewer BB kits there are to compete with RTR, the more RTR items they can sell to help recoup that heavy investment in the materials that were essentially purchased for the Genesis line, which is more of a strategic decision.
The demise of BB kits is more due to the introduction of the Genesis line and Athearn's new cost structure needing to be spread out, not due to lack of demand for BB kits at their prices, per se.
- Douglas
deleted
Doughless The emergence of highly detailed RTR cars was, in part, due to a bunch of complainers suggesting that producers were fraudsters producing foobies when they should be producing accurate products.
The emergence of highly detailed RTR cars was, in part, due to a bunch of complainers suggesting that producers were fraudsters producing foobies when they should be producing accurate products.
Damn thats a cynical angle on the topic. Could it actually be that manufacturers realized there was a demand for higher fidelity models and are doing what good companies do? Meet the demand? If anything, I would think the manufacturers would not be happy about accusations of fraud and foobies. I mean, who would want to make a living at trying to please people who are impossible to please?
I guess Blaine Hadfield for one, who left ExactRail to start his own company because hey, abuse is fun! Passion about making model trains has nothing to do with it, how could it? Same for Shane of Athearn who started ScaleTrains. Does he do it because he likes all the vitreol that comes from people with nothing better to do but be unhappy about ever better models?
Regardless of how you dissect it, we have what we have and it's a good thing, lots of choice. Personally I think thats a good thing and everyone should be happy, but for some reason we have to dredge up the same old bad feelings and accusations ad nauseum. There will never be a rest until ol Putin puts us all out of our misery apparently.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
A little more about product laddering. I've been car shopping and checked out the Nissan Sentra. Wonderful car in every aspect except its grossly underpowered by my standards. It comes only with the 1.8L 4cyl. Even though Nissan makes a robust 2.5L, it isn't offered in this car. If you want more power for the Sentra, you need the splurge on the turbo model that costs at least $5 grand more.
And, if Nissan put the 2.5L into the Sentra, it would cannibalize sales from the more expensive Nissan Altima, which has the 2.5L as its base motor. (if you want more power from the Altima, that will require an upgrade to the premium model with the 3.5L 6cyl).
You see, many people would love the Sentra with the 2.5, (since the consensus of reviews says its only fault is undepowered), which would cost very little, but Nissan doesn't allow that minimum upgrade to the masses as it would cut sales of the "niche" turbo model and from another more expensive model.
I like watching long trains run around my long single track railroad. It is relaxing. My friend who has no layout is always welcome to come in and run his trains.
Even as a student financially strapped modeler I just always built the biggest curves I could...5x9 instead of 4x8 has many more possibilities. I always have wanted to run the big stuff, and hacking it up to do 18" was just not something we did around here, and not even at the Penn State Model Railroading Club.
It is true that whenever I have passed along the occasional comment from my friends at Bowser that with some exceptions they are building freight cars for the "other 90%" of hobbyists that the 10% people tend to get very upset, to the point of angry name calling.
I do believe that a small but highly vocal group has influenced the manufacturers to go too far to the expensive side.
riogrande5761 Doughless I was simply defining the mark of an elitist. The guy who cares about having the best wine collection even though they know little themselves about what makes a good wine. Then later when they do know, calling out the vineyard as being below par. Right... obligatory inclusion then? I guess we know they are out their lurking so we need to be sure to put them on notice! I suppose because we are discussing high fidelity freight cars then we have to be sure to thow the dirty bathwater in with the good looking baby. Past forums and threads over the years were dripping with those types of comments. I think Atlas got tired of a bunch of elitist complaining know-littles infesting their forum so they shut it down. That was then, this is now. The past is the past - no need to keep re-living it unless things are boring and we need a little drama to spice things up? What if comments were written this way: If all you want to do is run 30 car trains around a few big loops of track, you probably don't care about cars operating very precisely. I liked watching long trains run continously when I was a kid. Lots of that at train shows. It's fun to watch for a few minutes and then interest is lost. This is why we like to build layouts and get into other aspects of the hobby like detailing scenes or operations etc, to keep interest up. Or in forums, a little drama now and then.
Doughless I was simply defining the mark of an elitist. The guy who cares about having the best wine collection even though they know little themselves about what makes a good wine. Then later when they do know, calling out the vineyard as being below par.
I was simply defining the mark of an elitist. The guy who cares about having the best wine collection even though they know little themselves about what makes a good wine. Then later when they do know, calling out the vineyard as being below par.
Right... obligatory inclusion then? I guess we know they are out their lurking so we need to be sure to put them on notice! I suppose because we are discussing high fidelity freight cars then we have to be sure to thow the dirty bathwater in with the good looking baby.
Past forums and threads over the years were dripping with those types of comments. I think Atlas got tired of a bunch of elitist complaining know-littles infesting their forum so they shut it down.
That was then, this is now. The past is the past - no need to keep re-living it unless things are boring and we need a little drama to spice things up?
What if comments were written this way: If all you want to do is run 30 car trains around a few big loops of track, you probably don't care about cars operating very precisely. I liked watching long trains run continously when I was a kid.
Lots of that at train shows. It's fun to watch for a few minutes and then interest is lost. This is why we like to build layouts and get into other aspects of the hobby like detailing scenes or operations etc, to keep interest up. Or in forums, a little drama now and then.
Back to the overall topic. The emergence of highly detailed RTR cars was, in part, due to a bunch of complainers suggesting that producers were fraudsters producing foobies when they should be producing accurate products.
I try to refrain from discussing business on a train forum, but just because high end products sell, doesn't mean they are in high demand, or were in more demand than the lower end products.
Product laddering means that a company does not want its cheaper product cannibalizing sales of its higher end product, so they don't want to make the cheaper product "too desireable", so they intentionally make it inferior when they could actually make it better with little extra cost.
And measuring a product line by total dollar sales means little. If 100 people bought a product for $50, that's $5,000 of revenue. Compared to 300 people paying $15, or $4,500. If variable costs on the $50 item stay reasonable, a company would much rather cater its product to the 100 people than the 300 people.....even though the people who desire the cheaper model outnumber the elite 3 to 1.
So if we say that Athearn Genesis took off and put Athean BB out of business because the "market" ( defined as more modelers) demanded it, think again.
riogrande5761 Doughless HO-Velo Oh good, it's not just me that thinks this thread has become eerie at times. A couple times it felt like I created Frankenstein's monster and the village mob is coming after it. I can see the horror film heading now; "The Terrifying Thread That Wouldn't Die. Its because for years a small but vocal group of elitist modelers kept labeling companies who didn't make RTR products as accurate as possible as fraudsters. References please or calling shens! Essentially, they bought a boxcar, then LATER found out the prototype may have had different ends and a different road number, then complain the manufacturer was trying to charge $50 for a foobie. They didn't even know about the correct details BEFORE they bought the car. They bought it because they simply thought it was the most accurate car on the market, even though they had little idea as to what made it accurate. IOW, they cared about owning the most accurate car, not really caring about the details themselves. And of course you know this will go on until global thermo nuclear war destroys the planet and the hobby along with it. In all the hew and cry, people seem to forget we have more high fidelity (close to the real thing) models than ever before. So rather than feel blessed and happy about being in the golden age of the hobby with the most cool stuff ever, people just complain all the more. *sigh* Human nature isn't it. The more nice things people have, the less happy they are.
Doughless HO-Velo Oh good, it's not just me that thinks this thread has become eerie at times. A couple times it felt like I created Frankenstein's monster and the village mob is coming after it. I can see the horror film heading now; "The Terrifying Thread That Wouldn't Die. Its because for years a small but vocal group of elitist modelers kept labeling companies who didn't make RTR products as accurate as possible as fraudsters.
HO-Velo Oh good, it's not just me that thinks this thread has become eerie at times. A couple times it felt like I created Frankenstein's monster and the village mob is coming after it. I can see the horror film heading now; "The Terrifying Thread That Wouldn't Die.
Oh good, it's not just me that thinks this thread has become eerie at times. A couple times it felt like I created Frankenstein's monster and the village mob is coming after it. I can see the horror film heading now; "The Terrifying Thread That Wouldn't Die.
Its because for years a small but vocal group of elitist modelers kept labeling companies who didn't make RTR products as accurate as possible as fraudsters.
References please or calling shens!
Essentially, they bought a boxcar, then LATER found out the prototype may have had different ends and a different road number, then complain the manufacturer was trying to charge $50 for a foobie. They didn't even know about the correct details BEFORE they bought the car. They bought it because they simply thought it was the most accurate car on the market, even though they had little idea as to what made it accurate. IOW, they cared about owning the most accurate car, not really caring about the details themselves.
They didn't even know about the correct details BEFORE they bought the car. They bought it because they simply thought it was the most accurate car on the market, even though they had little idea as to what made it accurate. IOW, they cared about owning the most accurate car, not really caring about the details themselves.
And of course you know this will go on until global thermo nuclear war destroys the planet and the hobby along with it.
In all the hew and cry, people seem to forget we have more high fidelity (close to the real thing) models than ever before. So rather than feel blessed and happy about being in the golden age of the hobby with the most cool stuff ever, people just complain all the more. *sigh* Human nature isn't it. The more nice things people have, the less happy they are.
Essentially, they bought a boxcar, then LATER found out the prototype may have had different ends and a different road number, or the boxcar red a bit too brown to be accurate, then complain the manufacturer was trying to charge $50 for a foobie.
They didn't even know about the correct details BEFORE they bought the car. They bought it because they simply thought it was the most accurate car on the market, even though they had little idea as to what made it accurate.
IOW, they cared about owning the most accurate model.
Which is the opposite of your situation. You are buying an accurate car and making assumptions that it meets a common standard. A standard that is important to you and a standard you have known for decades.
Since I build 99% of my frieght cars from kits, I can make sure all the details do not rub when I add them. All my cars must negotiate an 18" radius S Curve to make it past production. That way I know there will never be problems.
.
Any details that interfere get left off or modified.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
rrebell ATLANTIC CENTRAL riogrande5761 Having never lived in any other part of the country, I have no first hand knowledge of what others in others areas do. But nearly every "average" single home around here comes with a 1200 to 2000 sq foot basement.......... Sheldon It helps to be exposed to other places and find out that not everyone lives in model train basement heaven for various reason, geographic conventions (no basements) or cost of living etc. My wife looked hard to find a home in my area with a model train friendly basement in our budget, and all I can guess is those 1200 to 2000 sq foot basements must simply be out of our price range as we looked at quite a few houses. Well, I don't know what your price range was, but I live close enough to you to know that Real Estate is noticeably more expensive where you are compared to up here just an hour and a half away. Around here $300,000 will buy a modest rancher with a nice model railroad basement. And $400,000 will buy a really nice rancher or colonial with great basement. I know other parts of the country are not basement heaven, and I know why, I do after all design houses for a living. Here is the thing, I have just never been one to complain about the effects and outcomes of my life choices. Life has been good to me in some ways, not always good in others. I accept it or change it. We paid $375,000 for our new retirement spot, 2200 sq ft rancher, 1600 sq ft basement, two car garage, 2.3 quiet acres on which I will build an additional garage/shop. The 1600 sq ft basement is 100% my space and the new garage will be about 1000 sq ft. I suspect where you are a place like this might be more like $550,000. We looked around northern VA about 8 years ago, too pricey. Sheldon Out here a modest house can bring $2,000,000.00 or more on one side of the bay and upwards of $800,000.00 on the other (remember I said modest).
ATLANTIC CENTRAL riogrande5761 Having never lived in any other part of the country, I have no first hand knowledge of what others in others areas do. But nearly every "average" single home around here comes with a 1200 to 2000 sq foot basement.......... Sheldon It helps to be exposed to other places and find out that not everyone lives in model train basement heaven for various reason, geographic conventions (no basements) or cost of living etc. My wife looked hard to find a home in my area with a model train friendly basement in our budget, and all I can guess is those 1200 to 2000 sq foot basements must simply be out of our price range as we looked at quite a few houses. Well, I don't know what your price range was, but I live close enough to you to know that Real Estate is noticeably more expensive where you are compared to up here just an hour and a half away. Around here $300,000 will buy a modest rancher with a nice model railroad basement. And $400,000 will buy a really nice rancher or colonial with great basement. I know other parts of the country are not basement heaven, and I know why, I do after all design houses for a living. Here is the thing, I have just never been one to complain about the effects and outcomes of my life choices. Life has been good to me in some ways, not always good in others. I accept it or change it. We paid $375,000 for our new retirement spot, 2200 sq ft rancher, 1600 sq ft basement, two car garage, 2.3 quiet acres on which I will build an additional garage/shop. The 1600 sq ft basement is 100% my space and the new garage will be about 1000 sq ft. I suspect where you are a place like this might be more like $550,000. We looked around northern VA about 8 years ago, too pricey. Sheldon
riogrande5761 Having never lived in any other part of the country, I have no first hand knowledge of what others in others areas do. But nearly every "average" single home around here comes with a 1200 to 2000 sq foot basement.......... Sheldon It helps to be exposed to other places and find out that not everyone lives in model train basement heaven for various reason, geographic conventions (no basements) or cost of living etc. My wife looked hard to find a home in my area with a model train friendly basement in our budget, and all I can guess is those 1200 to 2000 sq foot basements must simply be out of our price range as we looked at quite a few houses.
Having never lived in any other part of the country, I have no first hand knowledge of what others in others areas do. But nearly every "average" single home around here comes with a 1200 to 2000 sq foot basement.......... Sheldon
But nearly every "average" single home around here comes with a 1200 to 2000 sq foot basement..........
It helps to be exposed to other places and find out that not everyone lives in model train basement heaven for various reason, geographic conventions (no basements) or cost of living etc. My wife looked hard to find a home in my area with a model train friendly basement in our budget, and all I can guess is those 1200 to 2000 sq foot basements must simply be out of our price range as we looked at quite a few houses.
Well, I don't know what your price range was, but I live close enough to you to know that Real Estate is noticeably more expensive where you are compared to up here just an hour and a half away.
Around here $300,000 will buy a modest rancher with a nice model railroad basement. And $400,000 will buy a really nice rancher or colonial with great basement.
I know other parts of the country are not basement heaven, and I know why, I do after all design houses for a living.
Here is the thing, I have just never been one to complain about the effects and outcomes of my life choices. Life has been good to me in some ways, not always good in others. I accept it or change it.
We paid $375,000 for our new retirement spot, 2200 sq ft rancher, 1600 sq ft basement, two car garage, 2.3 quiet acres on which I will build an additional garage/shop. The 1600 sq ft basement is 100% my space and the new garage will be about 1000 sq ft.
I suspect where you are a place like this might be more like $550,000. We looked around northern VA about 8 years ago, too pricey.
Out here a modest house can bring $2,000,000.00 or more on one side of the bay and upwards of $800,000.00 on the other (remember I said modest).
A fact that just continues to amaze me. There is nothing about California that would ever prompt me to live there, let alone pay that kind of money for housing.
Here, $1,200,000 will buy you something like this:
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2621-Bailey-Rd-Forest-Hill-MD-21050/36975903_zpid/
This is just up the road from our Queen Anne that we will be putting on the market soon:
4,000 sq ft on 1 acre, built in 1901, fully restored and mechanically updated 20 years ago, original slate roof, original millwork, pocket doors, 10'ceilings, 5/6 bedrooms, 2-1/2 baths, multi room master suite with large walk-in closet, built in heated pool with covered pavilion and changing and storge rm, 400 sq ft deck w/hot tub, 32 x 40 garage/shop with the former train room above, we expect to get something over $600,000.
Higher wages mean nothing if you spend it all on your house........
We were able to contract for a new built home here in central PA, 10 minutes from downtown Harrisburg, for $160,000 when my oldest son was born about 17 years ago. That's about 1900 sf living area, with a (not counted in living area) basement of about 800 sf suitable for around the wall train layout. Our cost of living is less here, but then so are salaries. Current home value is about $215,000, on a 0.22 acre lot in a quiet neighborhood (small town of 6,000).
Railfanning opportunities galore in this area. I'm a mile or less as the crow flies from west end of the Rockville Bridge, and for those who like trains and lots of them, the ghosts of the PRR Middle Division still loom large though all position light signals recently faded away.
Exactly.
At Timonium yesterday there were plenty of Genesis models, including the WP F Units, at more than one table.
I had one Genesis WP F unit previously, as well as Santa Fe units. If you touch them on plated areas, you scratch them. The clearcoat is actually that delicate. It also flakes off leaving way too shiny splotches (too blingin' even for me). No thanks...no more for me. Tried many Genesis engines. One Reading GP-7 was amazing, but the rest...not so much.
The Proto 2000 F units--those can be handled without scratching the plated finish. I've played with them a lot. Their clearcoat is much much better than Genesis and withstood repeated handling without issues. Not everybody likes the Proto series as much as most seem to like Genesis, for oft stated reasons like parts availability, road specific details, etc. etc.
I can no longer justify paying those prices. I took home a nos Stewart WP F unit for $60 instead, and feel that I got the steal of the show.
Others are entitled to see things completely differently for their layouts. I'm not saying anybody should do as I do.
All of this is driven by the looming college costs and $400 per month just on baseball lessons, for me to pay.
That's were I was 8 or 10 years ago. My daughter finished her bachelor's in biomedical engineering and the lifting of that financial burden allowed me to sort of get out of the slums in this high COL area. Even with that, I still shake my head at $500 for 2 Genesis sound WP F7s now available from Athearn. I expect they will sell.
John, sorry to hear about your dad and the typical family problems when those things happen.
When my grandmother passed, I just stayed out of the way and let my parents and sisters do what they wanted with everything. My grandmother had promised me the family silver, being the only male heir, but after my father passed, my mother drove me crazy asking why the silver was not on display in my house and accused me of selling it - I gave it back to her, I can buy my own silver.
Most of my locos have been purchased for $100 or less. Most of my diesels are Proto2000, Intermoutain and Genesis. Most bought in the days when DC undecorated versions were readily available.
Most of my steam is Bachmann Spectrum, Proto2000, a little Broadway Limited/PCM and two older brass models. Again, my dollar cost average is very low, maybe $200 each.
I do not see myself buying many more locos, except maybe a few older brass models or NOS similar to what I have. But I have most of what I need and want for the layout theme. Todays prices and my lack of interest in DCC and sound leave me unwilling to consider most new offerings.
As you by now know, my interests are very fixed, and not likely to change.
All of these models run well and are detailed to a level I am comfortable with.
And while I own some "high end RTR", much of my 800 freight car fleet is simple Blue Box level cars, sometimes with some added details.
I can be a perfectionist if I allow myself, but I soon found it to be not so fun. So I became more pragmatic and the hobby became more fun.
Sounds like you might be getting there yourself.
Relax and have fun, there is no holly grail to find.....
PS - did you see my thread a while back about my new layout space which explores my layout concept? You might find it interesting, I will bump it to the top.
Sheldon--
My comments were specifically not directed at you. There was another poster who had used that remark. Since you and I see so very differently, I specifically avoid trying to get into any discussions or disputes with you...less stress. On a personal note, my sister is killing me with obsessing over my parents health care and everything about cleaning out the house and nothing I do is good enough (I'm paying a very reputable person to do that--but yet her husband was quick to put him down as a being a crook without ever having met, talked to, or any contact at all with the 67 year old gentleman, who is doing us a valuable service). One parent dead and buried...Everyone in the family seems to think I'm stupid and it's always been that way, when in fact, as an engineer, well, stupid is not the correct adjective to describe me. I don't like being bs'd: items are worth what a willing buyer will pay today and nothing more than that. Most of you folks know that very well. Not my family.
Back to trains:
I'm perfectly happy going back to "vintage" older motive power. When I'm paying only $45 to $60 an engine, I can be much more forgiving of any QA/QC fit and finish issues. If the model isn't detailed enough, I can conceivably get off my lazy rear end, buy the detail kit, and detail it out to suit. Or for F units, I can bend the handrails myself with piano wire--they are not nearly as difficult to bend as the handrails for hood units. Grills warped, sloppily glued, or popping loose? Simply not going to happen. Plastic brittle handrails for the cat to break--not going to happen.
After trying motive power from many manufacturers, and liking some of it, there were still nagging QA/QC issues that I find unacceptable for the price point (and yes, that does even include some brass diesels - some things never did etch well into brass sheet and can be more readily rendered in plastic today).
As the price point approaches $300 in today's 500-part count (or higher) diesels, my tolerance for issues resulted in myself not being happy with basically any of them. That's why I changed my mind and sold so much.
I'm much much happier with old Kato's, despite the more limited selection. Roadname? I don't care--there are relatively few I do not care for.
I'm also asking myself "do I really need all those highly detailed rtr cars?". That is the closely related question, for me.
Now Kadee boxcars are relatively "cheap" and I got a Fox Valley WC 50' plug door boxcar yesterday for $17 that compares far too favorably to the latest $50 boxcars from the other guys. At that price point, I need more of the $17 boxcars, and the others can simply go away. I don't need them anymore.
Without mentioning specific names, there are some recently new diesel and freight car manufacturers on the scene whose average product quality is not really any better than Genesis. There's nothing they make that I will need, ever.
Respectfully submitted--and no venom directed at Sheldon--
PRR8259 riogrande5761-- Dang it. Wish I'd known. I'm not "flush" right now, after that show, but maybe in the months to come I could take them off your hands...if not weathered or beat up too much. Maybe start a private conversation with me, and when I get some cash again, I could take them off your hands? I just bought F-3: PRR hi fans, SP black widow low fans, and the one WP unit. My dad just died...back in the day I had a PRR hi fans F-3 for awhile. He'd probably remember that one...So I kinda got it to remember running the trains with him. I unloaded the Stewart Kato F units off the trucks when they came in at Toy Train Heaven years ago...Somebody actually stole one ATSF unit of each model the one time. Each case was short one, three or four different item numbers, when we opened them. Before becoming the perfectionistic elitist some say. John
riogrande5761--
Dang it. Wish I'd known. I'm not "flush" right now, after that show, but maybe in the months to come I could take them off your hands...if not weathered or beat up too much. Maybe start a private conversation with me, and when I get some cash again, I could take them off your hands?
I just bought F-3: PRR hi fans, SP black widow low fans, and the one WP unit.
My dad just died...back in the day I had a PRR hi fans F-3 for awhile. He'd probably remember that one...So I kinda got it to remember running the trains with him. I unloaded the Stewart Kato F units off the trucks when they came in at Toy Train Heaven years ago...Somebody actually stole one ATSF unit of each model the one time. Each case was short one, three or four different item numbers, when we opened them.
Before becoming the perfectionistic elitist some say.
John,
Just to be clear, I for one have never felt you were being "elitist", I simply will never understand how you never seem "satisfied" with anything you buy?
Be it brass or plastic, I will never understand the constant buying and selling.
rrebell ATLANTIC CENTRAL IRONROOSTER ATLANTIC CENTRAL Read up on Paul Mallery, he had other opinions I have several of his books, but sadly like Armstrong, some are not currently in print. Paul Agreed, not always easy to find some of this older info. I have a copy of Armstrong's hard cover book on track planning published by TAB books. He goes into much more detail about a lot of stuff then he does in the Kalmbach books. But again, his work, good as it was, was colored, at least some, by his modeling scale of choice. Mallery on the other hand was an HO modeler who saw the great potential of HO in a large space to get closer to the proprotions of real life. As to another aspect of this issue, I understand not everyone has 1000, or 1500, or more sq ft for a model layout. And some don't want to build that large a layout even if space and money was no object. But based on my own circle of friends and acquaintances in the hobby, I reject the idea that MOST modelers are bulding layouts that only fill a bedroom size space. MOST of the modelers I know have layouts in spaces about 700 sq ft or larger. And many have spaces larger than my 1600 sq ft. At least around here, basement filling empires are common. So again, around here, there is plenty of market for high detail rolling stock that requires 30" radius or larger. Having never lived in any other part of the country, I have no first hand knowledge of what others in others areas do. But nearly every "average" single home around here comes with a 1200 to 2000 sq foot basement.......... Sheldon Out west, basements are few and far between, same with Florida and a bunch of other southern states, not to say that there are none, just not common.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL IRONROOSTER ATLANTIC CENTRAL Read up on Paul Mallery, he had other opinions I have several of his books, but sadly like Armstrong, some are not currently in print. Paul Agreed, not always easy to find some of this older info. I have a copy of Armstrong's hard cover book on track planning published by TAB books. He goes into much more detail about a lot of stuff then he does in the Kalmbach books. But again, his work, good as it was, was colored, at least some, by his modeling scale of choice. Mallery on the other hand was an HO modeler who saw the great potential of HO in a large space to get closer to the proprotions of real life. As to another aspect of this issue, I understand not everyone has 1000, or 1500, or more sq ft for a model layout. And some don't want to build that large a layout even if space and money was no object. But based on my own circle of friends and acquaintances in the hobby, I reject the idea that MOST modelers are bulding layouts that only fill a bedroom size space. MOST of the modelers I know have layouts in spaces about 700 sq ft or larger. And many have spaces larger than my 1600 sq ft. At least around here, basement filling empires are common. So again, around here, there is plenty of market for high detail rolling stock that requires 30" radius or larger. Having never lived in any other part of the country, I have no first hand knowledge of what others in others areas do. But nearly every "average" single home around here comes with a 1200 to 2000 sq foot basement.......... Sheldon
IRONROOSTER ATLANTIC CENTRAL Read up on Paul Mallery, he had other opinions I have several of his books, but sadly like Armstrong, some are not currently in print. Paul
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Read up on Paul Mallery, he had other opinions
I have several of his books, but sadly like Armstrong, some are not currently in print.
Paul
Agreed, not always easy to find some of this older info.
I have a copy of Armstrong's hard cover book on track planning published by TAB books. He goes into much more detail about a lot of stuff then he does in the Kalmbach books.
But again, his work, good as it was, was colored, at least some, by his modeling scale of choice.
Mallery on the other hand was an HO modeler who saw the great potential of HO in a large space to get closer to the proprotions of real life.
As to another aspect of this issue, I understand not everyone has 1000, or 1500, or more sq ft for a model layout. And some don't want to build that large a layout even if space and money was no object.
But based on my own circle of friends and acquaintances in the hobby, I reject the idea that MOST modelers are bulding layouts that only fill a bedroom size space.
MOST of the modelers I know have layouts in spaces about 700 sq ft or larger. And many have spaces larger than my 1600 sq ft.
At least around here, basement filling empires are common. So again, around here, there is plenty of market for high detail rolling stock that requires 30" radius or larger.
Having never lived in any other part of the country, I have no first hand knowledge of what others in others areas do.
Out west, basements are few and far between, same with Florida and a bunch of other southern states, not to say that there are none, just not common.
I know and understand all that, what I don't have any real knowledge of is how and where in those homes most people build model trains?
Many houses in those "non basement" parts of the world are simply different in layout and function compared to houses here. Call me spoiled, but, model trains aside, I have a hard time understanding how people even live in some of what I have seen from places like Florida or California.
Then again, I don't really understand how people live in apartment complexes either..........
And I know that housing costs, and the general cost of living, are different all over.
But here is the thing, I'm not rich. I have worked hard and smart to earn what I have. Don't blame me because I made choices that gave me a 1600 sq ft train room and you made choices that did not. I know nothing about the situation of the OP, and he knows little about what I might have done without or given up to have what I have.
It's not personal, it's just an opinion based on 50 years of building model trains and some knowledge of engineering and physics - I would not build a layout and try to run 50' modern cars on 18" radius.
But my modeling goals are also broader than short trains on an ISL.
That is not a criticism of ISL's, I like them, I just want to model more than that.
So is he an Elitest because he wants high detail RTR rolling stock? Or am I one because I require 36-42" radius curves?
While I have my share of high end RTR, I also still run lots of blue box Athearn that will easily operate on 18" radius - now there is an irony for you, as my old Varney and Athearn metals cars, and MDC and Athearn plastic cars make there way around 800' of mainline with 36-42" radius curves........we all have different goals, which all require different compromises.
My second layout, over 45 years ago had 36" radius curves. I knew at age 16 that 18" radius was trouble......I'm 61 now.
But what do I know?
PRR8259As far as elitism is concerned, I am selling nearly all my high dollar, expensive Chinese plastic diesels and replacing them with new old stock Stewart/Kato F units, when I can find them.
I still have a number of Stewart/KATO F7's and while they don't fit my late 1970's interests, they are nice smooth runners and are keepers.
It was interesting to me yesterday, at Timonium, that the high dollar modern stuff was...in pretty good inventory, while myself and my friend were buying the older, cheap stuff, some of which was hard to find. I got the one WP F-3 in the whole place that wasn't Genesis.
I've been trying for the past 2 years to sell my Stewart/KATO WP F3 ABB engines and never get even a nibble and asking considerably less than what I paid.
I just love the "elitist" comments.
And the ones about having your own cake and being able to eat it too, sure.
In my job, I know that it's not always possible to get everything you want. Some things are mutually exclusive. You can have one OR the other, but not both.
Sure you can get 50' boxcars to negotiate 18" radii--but what then happens when someone wants to back up a train? Or better, back up a consist through an 18" radius reverse curve? Good luck. Then talk to me about having your cake and eating it, too. I've been there enough to know that it won't always work. Maybe sometimes it will work, maybe...
As far as elitism is concerned, I am selling nearly all my high dollar, expensive Chinese plastic diesels and replacing them with new old stock Stewart/Kato F units, when I can find them. The detail, paint, fit and finish are reasonable enough for me and they run well.
So who's elitist? Am I elitist because I have 26" min radius curves on a folded dogbone running along the walls? Or because I have owned some Tangent/Moloco/Exactrail cars?
For my next layout I'd be perfectly happy with a long true point to point along one basement wall in a ranch house. Then curves won't matter at all.
Another company I never heard of but way too modern for me too.
Hah hah. This kind of topic is totally typical after being on this forum for some years now. The topics frequently get rather unhinged but when you consider the hobby is full of old guys who are a bit like the characters in the Grumpy Old Men films, it makes good sense!
you can have your cake and eat it too, provided that fine scale RTR car rounding the 18"R curve is 50' long or shorter, with no underside brake rigging in the way, good couplers and track work and part of a short string of similar length cars moving at slow speed.
Problem solved!
Moloco FGER 50' boxcar ... To me it's sure to look good being slowly pushed by the NW2 down the spur towards the fish cannery loading dock, even though traversing that dreaded "toy train" curve. Happy Halloween and Dia de Muertos, Adios Amigos, Peter
Happy Halloween and Dia de Muertos, Adios Amigos, Peter
Moloco box cars do look good and Nick markets them well too by feeding us what clients they served and where, and destinctive features of how they replicate real box cars with accompanying photo's. Yeah, the 18" curves are dreaded by some of use very much, but for some, a "necessary evil".
Cheers, and adios, and Al vieder sehen. Tchuss.