There was or is a person on this forum that accually copied every single prototype of an engine there were only about 12, but still quite a task. Seen in a freight car once but forget which forum.
I deleted it because I thought it showed too much information about one particular model train manufacturer, and I've been burned in the past and do not want to upset my long time (45 years) friends and also my former employer. Things I said have been taken the wrong way in the past, resulting in nasty phone calls from some people on internet train forums, who may not completely grasp the whole story, to the manufacturer--calls the manufacturer should not ever have to deal with.
The one point to make is this: In real world prototype railroading, very very few models at any scale capture the prototype 100% in all its glory, because real world freight car and loco manufacturers have all kinds of running product changes within even the same model, and sometimes even within orders for a single railroad or freight car owner/lessor.
It is practically impossible to model every single variation of just an Alco C-628, and nobody in brass ever did it either, not for all roads and variations. So then which one road's engine do you decide to make "correct"?
Many are now asking for a new from ground up eastern road, Bethlehem Steel Car 100-ton open hopper. But many do not know the variations might not be doable. Reading for instance used a different end slope sheet angle on their cars that makes the Reading 100-ton open hopper different from all others...and I bet there are even more variations I don't know about. Also BSC sold freight car kits that prototype owners could then build out to suit...ie more variations.
100% may only be achievable for one specific order of a prototype.
Best Regards to all. Have a great weekend!
John
rrebell Oh I wouldn't say that exactly, a few have made (as well as could be done) exact copies of one car and added lots of diferent car numbers and pain schemes, at least they matched one car (remember one that they used as a prototype but did not accually have one painted and available in that road name).
Oh I wouldn't say that exactly, a few have made (as well as could be done) exact copies of one car and added lots of diferent car numbers and pain schemes, at least they matched one car (remember one that they used as a prototype but did not accually have one painted and available in that road name).
Right, that's what I meant. IMO, a mfg designs a car with one prototype in mind and from that comes cars painted with different roads, but oftentimes its not possible to add or delete other details to match each prototype. So all of the other variants are called foobies by some, at least to a degree.
- Douglas
rrebell PRR8259 deleted Why did you delete it, you are right on but then the manufactures don't even say they match every proto type.
PRR8259 deleted
deleted
Why did you delete it, you are right on but then the manufactures don't even say they match every proto type.
An interesting point that gets to the heart of the thread, IMO.
The OP is complaining about a mfg deviating from a well-known standard that hobbyists have known for decades. The assumption that it will negotiate a 22 or 18 inch radius is baked in.
Complaining about a $50 car not matching the prototype is making a new assumption that it should, despite history saying that mfgs have never matched each prototype in a typical mass produced release.
Well if someone is bullying, tell the to take a hike. What's the line from the old aesops fables? "If you try to please everyone, you lose your donkey (insert other name for donkey)! The nicer the models we get, the harder it is to please people.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
riogrande5761 Doughless it was always narrow and short sighted for those others guys on other forums to criticize any particular product as being a foob, as well as accusing the mfg of trying to fool the buyer. Perhaps it is narrow and short sited. Maybe a good way for you to deal with it is to realize those people are at a different point in their "journey" in the hobby and be patient or feel sorry for them or whatever helps you not get upset. The way I see it, some people deal with the "awakening" (the sudden realization that the models they have been buying don't match real train cars), with shock and anger. Others maybe with disappointment, still others don't care at all. Think of it maybe like an adult version of what some children may go through when they learn that people have been lying to them for years about Santa Clause. Some modelers often feel bitter and lied to by manufacturers about the models they are being sold. But eventually they learn that it isn't an evil conspiracy to foist some false product on them, but rather an economic reality. Either they do it that way, and a lot of foobies are made, or they don't make models at all cause they can't sustain production financially. Many of us probably went through, at minimum, a version of surprise and disappointment when we learned of foobies. I bought one of the Rio Grande Color Guide books from Morning Sun Books and began comparing my D&RGW models to the photo's and began selling off the foobies because I wanted models that matched real D&RGW freight cars. The good news is I also found there are many models that do match real D&RGW freight cars and while I had no layout, I enjoyed the research of trying to find models that match real freight cars. Anyway, I'm long past being bitter and mad about the"narrow and short sightedness of those other guys who criticize products as being foobs yada yada". I don't see the point in rehashing all it all. At some point we realize how the industry works, and we enjoy the hobby in what way works best for us. There is room for people of all stripes I'd like to think.
Doughless it was always narrow and short sighted for those others guys on other forums to criticize any particular product as being a foob, as well as accusing the mfg of trying to fool the buyer.
Perhaps it is narrow and short sited. Maybe a good way for you to deal with it is to realize those people are at a different point in their "journey" in the hobby and be patient or feel sorry for them or whatever helps you not get upset.
The way I see it, some people deal with the "awakening" (the sudden realization that the models they have been buying don't match real train cars), with shock and anger. Others maybe with disappointment, still others don't care at all.
Think of it maybe like an adult version of what some children may go through when they learn that people have been lying to them for years about Santa Clause. Some modelers often feel bitter and lied to by manufacturers about the models they are being sold.
But eventually they learn that it isn't an evil conspiracy to foist some false product on them, but rather an economic reality. Either they do it that way, and a lot of foobies are made, or they don't make models at all cause they can't sustain production financially.
Many of us probably went through, at minimum, a version of surprise and disappointment when we learned of foobies. I bought one of the Rio Grande Color Guide books from Morning Sun Books and began comparing my D&RGW models to the photo's and began selling off the foobies because I wanted models that matched real D&RGW freight cars. The good news is I also found there are many models that do match real D&RGW freight cars and while I had no layout, I enjoyed the research of trying to find models that match real freight cars.
Anyway, I'm long past being bitter and mad about the"narrow and short sightedness of those other guys who criticize products as being foobs yada yada". I don't see the point in rehashing all it all.
At some point we realize how the industry works, and we enjoy the hobby in what way works best for us. There is room for people of all stripes I'd like to think.
Well, this part of the conversation has gone too long for me since other people aren't generally the topic of my comments.
But complaining (not merely informing) that a producer made a car that is "inaccurate", by their narrow standards, immbeds the expectation that a producer should make a car that is "accurate" by their narrow standards.
It fails to see or care that producers have a bunch of other customers to worry about too. Its also a form of bullying producers, frankly.
is it realy that more expencive or is that inflation?
riogrande5761 Doughless Interesting about foobs. InterMountain released at least two run of their wonderfully accurate, highly detailed, expensive U18Bs ..... in paint schemes that never existed. They did it on purpose and even advertise them as such. Central Vermont and Southern Pacific are the Famous Image Collector Series. Maybe foobishness doesn't matter. It might even be desirable if you're a freelancer. Yes, it's true that some people want foobies. David Lehlbach of Tangent Scale Models, who generally strives toward high fidelity to the prototype has made foobies and reported it was because customer wanted them - specifically 4-bay coal cars. Sometimes it's simply supply and demand. Historically the vast majority of model freight cars have been foobies and models which actually matched a prototype were few. Try to match the Athearn blue box (also RTR) 40' plug door hi-cube appliance box car to real freight cars. I think I was only able to match it to a class of Union Pacific cars, while most if not all of the other paint schemes were foobies. But model train companies had to do this to recover the tooling costs. Things have changed and a much higher percentage of models made now actually match real freight cars than ever. Speaking of freelance, Tangent made a gondola based on the freelance model RR Allagash. They all sold out. As one person put it, the model RR hobby is like a salad bar.
Doughless Interesting about foobs. InterMountain released at least two run of their wonderfully accurate, highly detailed, expensive U18Bs ..... in paint schemes that never existed. They did it on purpose and even advertise them as such. Central Vermont and Southern Pacific are the Famous Image Collector Series. Maybe foobishness doesn't matter. It might even be desirable if you're a freelancer.
Interesting about foobs. InterMountain released at least two run of their wonderfully accurate, highly detailed, expensive U18Bs ..... in paint schemes that never existed. They did it on purpose and even advertise them as such. Central Vermont and Southern Pacific are the Famous Image Collector Series.
Maybe foobishness doesn't matter. It might even be desirable if you're a freelancer.
Yes, it's true that some people want foobies. David Lehlbach of Tangent Scale Models, who generally strives toward high fidelity to the prototype has made foobies and reported it was because customer wanted them - specifically 4-bay coal cars. Sometimes it's simply supply and demand.
Historically the vast majority of model freight cars have been foobies and models which actually matched a prototype were few. Try to match the Athearn blue box (also RTR) 40' plug door hi-cube appliance box car to real freight cars. I think I was only able to match it to a class of Union Pacific cars, while most if not all of the other paint schemes were foobies. But model train companies had to do this to recover the tooling costs. Things have changed and a much higher percentage of models made now actually match real freight cars than ever.
Speaking of freelance, Tangent made a gondola based on the freelance model RR Allagash. They all sold out.
As one person put it, the model RR hobby is like a salad bar.
If true, and I don't disagree, then it was always narrow and short sighted for those others guys on other forums to criticize any particular product as being a foob, as well as accusing the mfg of trying to fool the buyer.
I would wager that the vast majority of the hobby is supported by foobs, and people who don't care that they are. Not that it matters how many of each group of modelers there are.
I can see layouts that operate a variety of railroad locos on the same layout from geeps, to SD90Macs, to 4-6-6-4 challengers and the owner could care less if one steam loco, diesel loco, or boxcar is more like another railroads equipment than the railroad its painted for.
But I do think they make assumptions about car length and turning radii.
IRONROOSTERThat Golden Age is dead. Why, because it wasn't the golden age for most. Kits are dying because most people in the hobby want RTR. Locomotive kits are gone. BB and Roundhouse/MDC are at train shows for $5 - $10 because over 10 years after production stopped most people still don't want them.
Apparently it depends on how one defines golden age. I define it in terms of what if available to us and in the present, as Paul pointed out, many BB and MDC kits, and others for that matter, are at train shows for good prices. We also have the newer high detail stuff too.
Now if one defines golden age as when there were no RTR and it was all "do-it-yourself" kit building etc. then thats your golden age, gone many years ago. Of course if you adapt methods of finding those items, they are out there and you can still satisfy that need as Paul mentioned, lots of it out there.
I even break down now and then and buy a kit because it's something I need; just last weekend I picked up a Lonestar 40' flat bed trailer kit as those were common on D&RGW TOFC.
I hope Accurail lasts a long time because it represents a low cost line I think the hobby needs. But it does so with plastic wheels and cheap couplers along with the molded on details.
I have bought a number of Accurail kits in the last year, kits which fit my last gasp of 40' box car time frame. While I like details, with a little weathering the molded on grab irons don't stand out terribly.
But why should Athearn make more kits - there's still a life time supply.
That seems to be the case from what I see, and probably part of the reason Athearn stopped making them - there is a glut of BB kits out there on the secondary market.
Personally, I buy some of everything. But RTR rules because getting a layout built is what I want more than building kits. Once that happens, I will start building kits (and scratch building) - but that's me, building kits is my second hobby. Paul
Paul
Thats exactly true for me; I still buy kits but mostly RTR because building a layout is a pretty consuming task. While building my last layout, I did take some breaks and built some P2K kits and a few others. I still have a few stashed away for when I get the urge.
IRONROOSTERThat Golden Age is dead. Why, because it wasn't the golden age for most. Kits are dying because most people in the hobby want RTR. Locomotive kits are gone.
I think you nailed it. 30 years ago I remember an article about adding a speed recorder to a loco truck. At the time I was thinking, "What is a speed recorder and why do I need add it to a loco with molded on grab irons?"
Now the speed recorder, added grab irons and fan detail is there, along with uncoupling levers and MU hoses. The cost is a lot more, which is a big deal for some but not all.
The upside of all the detail is it looks really cool and we don't have to have any craftsmans skills to own it. The downside is that when we go to caboose heaven, the extra cost is lost and our loved trains go to the dumpster.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
trwrouteAlso, the golden age, as you put it, for the hobby was in the 80's and 90's. We had a lot of kit builders and a small amount of rtr. You could pick and choose. It really was a hobby for everyone.
That Golden Age is dead. Why, because it wasn't the golden age for most. Kits are dying because most people in the hobby want RTR. Locomotive kits are gone. BB and Roundhouse/MDC are at train shows for $5 - $10 because over 10 years after production stopped most people still don't want them.
Most folks who like kits want better, more correctly detailed (and thus more complicated) kits. They're around, but they cost more and are usually small runs for a small market.
Personally, I buy some of everything. But RTR rules because getting a layout built is what I want more than building kits. Once that happens, I will start building kits (and scratch building) - but that's me, building kits is my second hobby.
trwroute riogrande5761 So tell me why today is not a hobby for everyone? Today, model trains of a MUCH wider variety are available and accessible than in the 80's and 90's. Why? Today we have all the stuff that was made in the 1980's and 1990's on Ebay and at train shows by the boat load PLUS we have all the really cool newer stuff made in the last 20 years as well. THIS is why today is the golden age of the hobby clearly. We have much more now than ever. What's not to like? As for picking and choosing, we have a MUCH bigger variety to pick and choose from in the present. What baffles me is why people are unhappy with this situation. Friggen everyone should be a winner but still people are unhappy. I don't get it. As for having a lot more kit builders in the 80's and 90's - of course we did, it was out of necessity. Pretty much the only RTR stuff was Life Like and Tyco train set trains which were toy like compared to Athearn and MDC and other models. I can easily break it down like this: There are the kit builders (example, me) and there are the guys that buy pretty much everything rtr (example, you). For me, these aren't the golden years of the hobby. For you, they are. I'm still waiting for the days to come back when I could go to the Lhs and get whatever car or locomotive kit I wanted off the shelf! Like that will ever happen again... Please keep in mind that buying off eBay or waiting for the one trainshow to come around, is NOT the same as touching and buying that impulse item from your local hobby shop so he can keep the doors open.
riogrande5761 So tell me why today is not a hobby for everyone? Today, model trains of a MUCH wider variety are available and accessible than in the 80's and 90's. Why? Today we have all the stuff that was made in the 1980's and 1990's on Ebay and at train shows by the boat load PLUS we have all the really cool newer stuff made in the last 20 years as well. THIS is why today is the golden age of the hobby clearly. We have much more now than ever. What's not to like? As for picking and choosing, we have a MUCH bigger variety to pick and choose from in the present. What baffles me is why people are unhappy with this situation. Friggen everyone should be a winner but still people are unhappy. I don't get it. As for having a lot more kit builders in the 80's and 90's - of course we did, it was out of necessity. Pretty much the only RTR stuff was Life Like and Tyco train set trains which were toy like compared to Athearn and MDC and other models.
So tell me why today is not a hobby for everyone? Today, model trains of a MUCH wider variety are available and accessible than in the 80's and 90's. Why? Today we have all the stuff that was made in the 1980's and 1990's on Ebay and at train shows by the boat load PLUS we have all the really cool newer stuff made in the last 20 years as well. THIS is why today is the golden age of the hobby clearly. We have much more now than ever. What's not to like?
As for picking and choosing, we have a MUCH bigger variety to pick and choose from in the present. What baffles me is why people are unhappy with this situation. Friggen everyone should be a winner but still people are unhappy. I don't get it.
I can easily break it down like this: There are the kit builders (example, me) and there are the guys that buy pretty much everything rtr (example, you). For me, these aren't the golden years of the hobby. For you, they are. I'm still waiting for the days to come back when I could go to the Lhs and get whatever car or locomotive kit I wanted off the shelf! Like that will ever happen again...
Please keep in mind that buying off eBay or waiting for the one trainshow to come around, is NOT the same as touching and buying that impulse item from your local hobby shop so he can keep the doors open.
trwrouteI never said that I wasn't happy. I'm just the type that would rather visit a hobby shop than order something and hope the post office delivers it to the right house. Believe me, I play the eBay game. I have to since there's really no other place to go and buy anything within 40 miles.
Sorry yes, you said the 80's and 90's were the golden age vs. the present.
But it sounds like the lack of an LHS part of why you miss the olden days, not so much was is available.
It's true, time have changed in the way we get our toys. But I have noticed there is an aweful lot of older stuff, stuff in the category you favor, that is availalbe when I browse the tables at the big Timonium train show, and yes, on Ebay. It's more a matter of finding particular models.
I still argue, that in shear terms of variety, there are more choices today then ever.
riogrande5761 It sounds to me a big part of why you are unhappy is due to how we find and buy stuff, not that we have a different mix of products being made; there is definitely a paradigm shift in how we buy things, with a major shift away from B&M stores to online sales. BTW, I often have to troll Ebay to find what I want too so in that regard, thats part of the game.
It sounds to me a big part of why you are unhappy is due to how we find and buy stuff, not that we have a different mix of products being made; there is definitely a paradigm shift in how we buy things, with a major shift away from B&M stores to online sales.
BTW, I often have to troll Ebay to find what I want too so in that regard, thats part of the game.
I never said that I wasn't happy. I'm just the type that would rather visit a hobby shop than order something and hope the post office delivers it to the right house.
Believe me, I play the eBay game. I have to since there's really no other place to go and buy anything within 40 miles.
Now, if I could go to my lhs, that closed, and buy a kit, that's no longer available, I would be a happy camper!
Chuck - Modeling in HO scale and anything narrow gauge
I'm still waiting for the days to come back when I could go to the Lhs and get whatever car or locomotive kit I wanted off the shelf! Like that will ever happen again... Please keep in mind that buying off eBay or waiting for the one trainshow to come around, is NOT the same as touching and buying that impulse item from your local hobby shop so he can keep the doors open.
trwroute riogrande5761 If anything, I would think the manufacturers would not be happy about accusations of fraud and foobies. I mean, who would want to make a living at trying to please people who are impossible to please? I remember a lively discussion on one of the other forums that you participated in, about the new (at the time) BLMA Tropicana reefer. It was trashed because it was a "foobie". I guess your view on the matter has changed?
riogrande5761 If anything, I would think the manufacturers would not be happy about accusations of fraud and foobies. I mean, who would want to make a living at trying to please people who are impossible to please?
If anything, I would think the manufacturers would not be happy about accusations of fraud and foobies. I mean, who would want to make a living at trying to please people who are impossible to please?
I remember a lively discussion on one of the other forums that you participated in, about the new (at the time) BLMA Tropicana reefer. It was trashed because it was a "foobie". I guess your view on the matter has changed?
What view would I have in the matter? Tropicana reefers are of no interest to me, never were. As for bitter complainers, there will always be some, what would you like me to do about it? I don't have a magic wand, but it would be nice if people did less of it.
In my world, there is no such thing as a foobie. It just needs to LOOK right.
Trust me, thats a good thing because it keeps the model train industry more financially healthy!
Also, the golden age, as you put it, for the hobby was in the 80's and 90's. We had a lot of kit builders and a small amount of rtr. You could pick and choose. It really was a hobby for everyone.
trwroute I remember a lively discussion on one of the other forums about the new (at the time) BLMA Tropicana reefer. It was trashed because it was a "foobie". In my world, there is no such thing as a foobie. It just needs to LOOK right.
I remember a lively discussion on one of the other forums about the new (at the time) BLMA Tropicana reefer. It was trashed because it was a "foobie".
Interesting about foobs. InterMountain released at least two of their wonderfully accurate, highly detailed, expensive U18Bs ..... in paint schemes that never existed. They did it on purpose and even advertise them as such. Central Vermont and Southern Pacific are the Famous Image Collector Series.
You can get alot of MDC's early kit stuff on e-bay from river city, have no idea where he gets his parts but he seems to have an endless supply.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Douglas, I have to agree with your analysis of the demise of the Blue Box kit. I will add a few thoughts: First, over the last 10-15 years, the price structure of the RTR line is roughly equal to the inflation adjusted price structure of the Blue box kits if you use the 1970's as your base line. Athearn expanded the Blue Box line considerably in the 1970's, and raised prices to cover the costs. From there on out, Blue Box kit prices did not keep pace with inflation. Athearn was in a strong position and used that to dominate the market with lower prices than the other easy to build plastic freight cars on the market. So when RTR came along, Blue Box kit prices were artificially low. That sitiuation was not going to work much longer. Next point - a large percentage of the original 1990's/early 2000's RTR line was nothing more than assembled Blue Box kits with metal wheels and better paint jobs. Those items are now being rebranded into the Roundhouse line, but the fact remains that Athearn still produces almost all of the Blue Box line as RTR under one label or the other. Many other RTR items are Model Die Casting tooling from the late 80's and early 90's. Only a portion of the RTR line is relatively new tooling developed for that line, most came in some form from previous products. To those who model more modern eras this is less obvious because most of the Blue Box line represented prototypes from the 30's thru the 70's. So it was going to be very market painful to sell both kits and RTR of the same items for the same price, as you suggest. Sheldon
Douglas,
I have to agree with your analysis of the demise of the Blue Box kit.
I will add a few thoughts:
First, over the last 10-15 years, the price structure of the RTR line is roughly equal to the inflation adjusted price structure of the Blue box kits if you use the 1970's as your base line.
Athearn expanded the Blue Box line considerably in the 1970's, and raised prices to cover the costs. From there on out, Blue Box kit prices did not keep pace with inflation. Athearn was in a strong position and used that to dominate the market with lower prices than the other easy to build plastic freight cars on the market.
So when RTR came along, Blue Box kit prices were artificially low. That sitiuation was not going to work much longer.
Next point - a large percentage of the original 1990's/early 2000's RTR line was nothing more than assembled Blue Box kits with metal wheels and better paint jobs.
Those items are now being rebranded into the Roundhouse line, but the fact remains that Athearn still produces almost all of the Blue Box line as RTR under one label or the other.
Many other RTR items are Model Die Casting tooling from the late 80's and early 90's.
Only a portion of the RTR line is relatively new tooling developed for that line, most came in some form from previous products.
To those who model more modern eras this is less obvious because most of the Blue Box line represented prototypes from the 30's thru the 70's.
So it was going to be very market painful to sell both kits and RTR of the same items for the same price, as you suggest.
Sheldon
Thanks for the details. 100% Agree. Many cars with vintage tooling are still being produced and sold. They have been upgraded to the degree it makes economic sense, which happens because the higher end product lines allow for the better materials and labor. The lower end products in their current form sell because that's what's offered, not necessarily because the market for lower detailed products diminished.
Accurail, who does not have a higher end product and has made no investment in better materials, hasn't changed their kits in decades and seem to be doing fine. A small foray into RTR (merely assembled kits) seems to have not mattered either way.
cx500 As far as the basic kits vs ready-to-run issue, I believe one manufacturer indicated that any savings due to not having to assemble the kit at the point of manufacture was eaten up by extra costs in ensuring that all the parts were included in the box. The most certain way to ensure completeness is to ship it fully assembled.
As far as the basic kits vs ready-to-run issue, I believe one manufacturer indicated that any savings due to not having to assemble the kit at the point of manufacture was eaten up by extra costs in ensuring that all the parts were included in the box. The most certain way to ensure completeness is to ship it fully assembled.
Yes. There was a short period of time where BB kits were essentially unassembled RTR products. The shells were reworked slightly to remove the molded on details to allow for separately applied detail parts, like wire grab irons, which were included in that little manilla envelope. They also came with metal wheelsets.
That was also about the time Athearn introduced the Genesis line, so those parts had an ample supply chain. I assume Athearn planned for the upgrades to the BB kits when they introduced Genesis, but then probably figured out that it was more cost effective for them to just assemble and sell the RTR cars.
Again, that does not mean that people did not want BB kits at the prices being sold. It means Athearn could make a different product more competitive due to having the parts and labor already in the chain.
Atlas Trainman and Walthers Trainline are two prodcut lines that have molded on details, like BB used to have. So there still was/is a market for those types of products. Since they have the labor on hand to assemble their premium lines, it doesn't take much cost at all to assemble the cheaper products. That's not the same thing as hiring labor specifically and only to assemble a kit and sell it RTR, which would be a very big leap in price, IMO.
Graham LinePeople on these boards very often say they never have any time for modeling -- possibly because they are spending their time on these boards. Possibly because they never developed the skills to build a kit.
@Graham Line
I can only speak for myself, but since moving into our home late last year, my wife (who does support my train hobby) is pretty much dictating little to no hobby time while we are doing major projects on our fixer upper home. I can't speak for others, but have you considered that maybe they like building kits almost as much as they like going to the dentist?
I have built many of the kits available (Athearn bb, MDC, Accurail, E&C, Walthers, and also Proto 2000, Intermountain hight detail kits, and flat part Eel River. Even as recently as last couple years I have built a few more high detail kits (IMRC and Proto2000). I never really enjoyed it that much but it was necessary before RTR and even after RTR has been around and well established, I've built more. Am I worthy?
But looking at the bigger picture of kits and skills, where is it written "thou shalt be a kit builder and enjoy it"? It seems there are a number of those who disapprove if hobbyist's don't embrace kit building happily. Some like it, some do not and others have dexterity issues like shaking hands, or poor dexterity.
Sure, we can all improve to one degree or another but is it so wrong to enjoy the hobby in a way we choose, which may not be rolling stock kit building? Maybe others are better at operations, or layout building, track laying, scenery or other things.
Geez, I thought the hobby was supposed to be fun. It's not feeling very fun right now. One thing I like about my wife is she really has no patience for people who feel it's ok to be condescending to her. Here is her solution: Here is my cat, and here is my cats back side.
My dealer has been telling me for the past decade that if he has one kit, and 10 RTRs of the same identical car, he will sell out of the RTR before he sells the kit. People on these boards very often say they never have any time for modeling -- possibly because they are spending their time on these boards. Possibly because they never developed the skills to build a kit.