riogrande5761An amalgomation of recent surveys cited the following regarding market size: The market sizes according to surveys we've done and the ones seen from others goes like this ... HO - 67% N - 23% O - 7% (includes On30) All others - 3%
And these surveys would be???
The few surveys I have seen all have bias built it in. Most seem to be surveys of a particular magazine's readership or something similar. Since no magazine/organization covers all the hobby their surveys aren't very accurate.
I think your figures over represent HO and under represent everyone else.
Paul
Why I have HO instead of O:
Cost
Space
Availability of items
Variaty of items
And, lastly, Cost.
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
Didn't O Scale stagnate Heavily in the 70s? I remember reading an article where a guy actually was scrapping pinball machines for parts for his layout because of lack of parts avalibilty for the scale at the time. It's kind of made a comeback but I think in today's economy the price is the bigger issue.
IRONROOSTER riogrande5761 Plainly HO has between 60 and 70% of the market because it is the best compromise between space requirements and detail and cost and availability. Really!!!! Over half the folks I talk to would seriously disagree with that statement, including a lot of HO folks. I hear lots of people saying I would be in 'X' scale but I have too much in HO to change.
riogrande5761 Plainly HO has between 60 and 70% of the market because it is the best compromise between space requirements and detail and cost and availability.
Really!!!!
Over half the folks I talk to would seriously disagree with that statement, including a lot of HO folks. I hear lots of people saying I would be in 'X' scale but I have too much in HO to change.
Yes really. I suppose those folks can disagree all they want but the metrics don't seem agree with them. I've been in the hobby since I was a teen in the early 1970's and things haven't seemed to have changed a great deal that I've seen from then to now.
I would have to ask why is having HO scale an impediment to switching scales? What with train shows, swap sales lists and Ebay you can sell off your stuff and use the cash to finance some other scale. People should model what they want and not be held back by something they aren't satisfied with. I sell stuff regularly that don't fit my needs and continue to do so.
I don't hear many people saying the opposite. And many of us in other scales started in HO and changed becuase it's not the best.
Of course scale is an individual choice. I still believe HO is the most popular and sold because it is a good compromise between space/detail/fidelity/cost.
Historic circumstances after WWII gave HO a big boost and after that initial jump start the percentage in HO scale has been declining for the last 40 or so years.
Sure, maybe so, and thats because of the increasing availablity of more products in other scales. HO seems to have remained in the high 50's to high 60's (depending on poll) in the last 20 years however.
Sure HO, like any other scale, is the best for some folks but not for others. Accurate firgures are not available, but from what I see HO is less than 50% of the hobby. Paul
Apparently it is best for around 60-65% approximately.
An amalgomation of recent surveys cited the following regarding market size:
The market sizes according to surveys we've done and the ones seen from others goes like this ...
HO - 67%N - 23%O - 7% (includes On30)
All others - 3%
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
At least we know HO is 50% of O!
Steve
If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!
riogrande5761Plainly HO has between 60 and 70% of the market because it is the best compromise between space requirements and detail and cost and availability.
Over half the folks I talk to would seriously disagree with that statement, including a lot of HO folks. I hear lots of people saying I would be in 'X' scale but I have too much in HO to change. I don't hear many people saying the opposite. And many of us in other scales started in HO and changed becuase it's not the best.
Sure HO, like any other scale, is the best for some folks but not for others. Accurate firgures are not available, but from what I see HO is less than 50% of the hobby.
trainnut1250 snjroy challenger3980 Paul3
Hey guys,
Thanks for the info. The great thing about links is that links lead to more links.
It's still early in my ponderings, but it kinda seems that things are moving toward the idea that what I might do is find some decent RTR engine that would form the basic chassis and then search the aftermarket for Proto:48 pieces and parts to upgrade the model to whatever version of accuracy my meager talents allow.
Definitely looking for a steamer. I have a long background in N, and as much as I support and admire that particular scale, N offerings in steam are (how shall I say?) . . . lacking. Athearn makes an HO 4-8-4 painted in UP Greyhound livery, and finding something like that in O would be great. But like I said, I'm only just now doing slightly more than pondering The Great O Adventure. Things may change as I go along.
Paul3 At least now, all the armchair model railroader subscribers get exposed to some high level non-HO & N modeling a few times a year. Maybe an article or two will kick them off the couch and onto the workbench and the next great non-HO & N modeler is born.
At least now, all the armchair model railroader subscribers get exposed to some high level non-HO & N modeling a few times a year. Maybe an article or two will kick them off the couch and onto the workbench and the next great non-HO & N modeler is born.
This thread has got me moving on and idea that has been rambling around inside my noggin for a while. I am in the middle of a pretty ambitious layout build, so I haven't exactly been on the couch watching basketball games. In the past 24 hours I have done a little something to get things in motion. For a lot of the reasons mentioned by others, I cannot see building an O scale layout; what I see is more along the lines of an O scale display. I hope this isn't blasphemous to the dedicated O scalers. Cultural appropriation and all that . . .
Thanks.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
I wouldn't have thought a topic like this is necessary as the reasons seem pretty straight forward and and have remained so:
- Space requirements.
- Cost
- Availability.
Space is surely the biggest reason; as it is I can barely fit in what I need to in the spaces I've had. Sure, if I wanted to have a switching layout, maybe O would be doable but I want to run mainline trains.
Plainly HO has between 60 and 70% of the market because it is the best compromise between space requirements and detail and cost and availability.
Randy Stahl I model in several scales and the BEST scale for modeling trolleys is O scale. I have some heavy electrics in HO and a large collection of Milwaukee road in N scale. I think N scale is the best for modeling mainline passenger trains. I don't have a ton of space but O scale trolleys don't take alot of space. Building the overhead wire is actually fun in O scale ! Randy
I model in several scales and the BEST scale for modeling trolleys is O scale. I have some heavy electrics in HO and a large collection of Milwaukee road in N scale. I think N scale is the best for modeling mainline passenger trains. I don't have a ton of space but O scale trolleys don't take alot of space. Building the overhead wire is actually fun in O scale !
Randy
Completely agreed, if I was going to model trolleys or interurbans, O would be the only choice. Because of both the trains and the urban scenery.
Sheldon
traindaddy1 I'd really like to know why, in your opinion, there isn't more interest is the larger "O".
I'd really like to know why, in your opinion, there isn't more interest is the larger "O".
2- Price, which may not be an issue for US models, but European O-scale products are way too expensive.3- Accessories. Again, this might not be the case in USA, but on the other side of the atlantic track material is limited, and there is virtually no buildings.
NWP SWPIf I had unlimited funds and resources I would jump to O but I don't so I'll stick with HO!
.
You do have unlimited funds and resources. Your life is just beginning, and you have not made any decisions or commitments that will limit where you will go or what you can accomplish.
The choices you make in the next few years will be very important.
Do not sell yourself short.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
If I had unlimited funds and resources I would jump to O but I don't so I'll stick with HO!
I'm just going to leave this here:
challenger3980...I'm not suggesting that MR cut any HO/N material, but more coverage of other scales would increase it's appeal to more readers....
If you want to see more O scale stuff in Model Railroader, perhaps it's time more O scale modellers submitted some articles.
Wayne
Paul, I'm sure that a lot of subscribers would cancel because of ADDITIONAL Material, I'm not suggesting that MR cut any HO/N material, but more coverage of other scales would increase it's appeal to more readers.
Seems that MR was getting thinner by the year, just not any Less advertising, before I let my subscription expire. And YES, I understand the Advertising pays the bills more than subscriptions do, but I was starting to feel like I was paying more for advertising than content at the end, YMMV.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
Doug,If they did really change their name as you suggest, then that's all they'd print: HO and N. As shown above, they explore other scales. Not often, true, but they do. Do you want to eliminate all other scales from MR? At least now, all the armchair model railroader subscribers get exposed to some high level non-HO & N modeling a few times a year. Maybe an article or two will kick them off the couch and onto the workbench and the next great non-HO & N modeler is born.MR is a general interest model railroading magazine covering all scale model railroads. MR's content is a reflection of this hobby as a whole; the more popular the subject, the more likely will it appear in the magazine. Non-tinplate O-scale is not that popular (sad, but true; remember I like it, too); it's not going to appear every month in a general interest magazine like MR or RMC. If they did, they might gain hundreds of O-scale readers and lose thousands of HO and N scale modelers.Sheldon,I agree 100% with you on this one. Heh. Bet you never thought I'd say that!
Robert, ruling out eBay is pretty hard when you're looking for 2-rail O scale steam engines. They're aren't that many options. There are reputable people selling 3rdRail/Sunset engines there.
Also, O Gauge Railroad (OGR) magazine has a message board like this, with a "wanted to buy" section. Folks there sometimes sell their like-new "shelf queen" 3rdRail/Sunset engines.
Good luck
ROBERT PETRICK Following up on my previous posts . . . I started looking around for O scale stuff. Found some at the usual retailers. I do not do eBay (no comment, I just don't). I'm specifically looking for well-detailed, accurate models. Proto:48 I think. I do not want 3 rail. In approximate order of preference (but I am flexible if something interesting turns up): Berkshires, Northerns, Challengers; CB&Q, C&O, UP. I'm not afraid of the price point, but I don't want to be ridiculous about it. Any ideas? Thanks. Robert
Following up on my previous posts . . .
I started looking around for O scale stuff. Found some at the usual retailers. I do not do eBay (no comment, I just don't). I'm specifically looking for well-detailed, accurate models. Proto:48 I think. I do not want 3 rail. In approximate order of preference (but I am flexible if something interesting turns up): Berkshires, Northerns, Challengers; CB&Q, C&O, UP.
I'm not afraid of the price point, but I don't want to be ridiculous about it.
Any ideas?
challenger3980 Paul3 challenger3980,Well, of course Model Railroader is mostly about HO and N. They are the two biggest scales by popularity. If HO is 55% of the market, and N is 25%, O, G, S, OO, TT and Z are all less than 20%...combined. MR is a business, after all. Would you tune your business for less than 1/5th of your market share? Or the remaining 80%?Still, it's not like MR totally ignores other scales. In the past year and a half, MR printed:June 2018: Strategic structure sizing - The sheer mass of structures can be an issue in O scale, but careful choices can mitigate them.May 2018: A spot of England In Georgia - An OO scale British Railways layout lets a husband and wife re-create the area where they grew up.December 2017: The best of the Badger State - Scenes from Wisconsin served as inspiration for this 22 x 24-foot S scale layout.November 2017: Big and busy on the Pennsy - Signature scenes of the 1950s highlight the O scale Nassau Division.November 2017: Z scale in a closet - This 2 x 3-foot layout features the steam-to-diesel transition-era in southern Indiana. August 2017: A Z scale piece of the USA in France - Homemade photo-etched and 3-D-printed parts enhance a coal-hauling layout with handlaid track.January 2017: Scratchbuild a diesel shell from styrene - This S scale Whitcomb 65-ton locomotive started as a cardboard mock-up.And there were three O-scale and one Z-scale product reviews, plus at least two "Heritage Fleet" columns on O-scale.Is it a lot? Nope. But it's there. I never claimed any percentage figures about any scale, but your post and others just validate my view that the magazine title would be more appropriate as HO & N Scale Monthly, than MR. The as shown small coverage and Holier than Thou attitude of many HO and N scalers are why, I no longer subscribe to HO &N Scale Monthly, I mean MR. Just give the magazine a more accurate title is my point. Doug
Paul3 challenger3980,Well, of course Model Railroader is mostly about HO and N. They are the two biggest scales by popularity. If HO is 55% of the market, and N is 25%, O, G, S, OO, TT and Z are all less than 20%...combined. MR is a business, after all. Would you tune your business for less than 1/5th of your market share? Or the remaining 80%?Still, it's not like MR totally ignores other scales. In the past year and a half, MR printed:June 2018: Strategic structure sizing - The sheer mass of structures can be an issue in O scale, but careful choices can mitigate them.May 2018: A spot of England In Georgia - An OO scale British Railways layout lets a husband and wife re-create the area where they grew up.December 2017: The best of the Badger State - Scenes from Wisconsin served as inspiration for this 22 x 24-foot S scale layout.November 2017: Big and busy on the Pennsy - Signature scenes of the 1950s highlight the O scale Nassau Division.November 2017: Z scale in a closet - This 2 x 3-foot layout features the steam-to-diesel transition-era in southern Indiana. August 2017: A Z scale piece of the USA in France - Homemade photo-etched and 3-D-printed parts enhance a coal-hauling layout with handlaid track.January 2017: Scratchbuild a diesel shell from styrene - This S scale Whitcomb 65-ton locomotive started as a cardboard mock-up.And there were three O-scale and one Z-scale product reviews, plus at least two "Heritage Fleet" columns on O-scale.Is it a lot? Nope. But it's there.
challenger3980,Well, of course Model Railroader is mostly about HO and N. They are the two biggest scales by popularity. If HO is 55% of the market, and N is 25%, O, G, S, OO, TT and Z are all less than 20%...combined. MR is a business, after all. Would you tune your business for less than 1/5th of your market share? Or the remaining 80%?Still, it's not like MR totally ignores other scales. In the past year and a half, MR printed:June 2018: Strategic structure sizing - The sheer mass of structures can be an issue in O scale, but careful choices can mitigate them.May 2018: A spot of England In Georgia - An OO scale British Railways layout lets a husband and wife re-create the area where they grew up.December 2017: The best of the Badger State - Scenes from Wisconsin served as inspiration for this 22 x 24-foot S scale layout.November 2017: Big and busy on the Pennsy - Signature scenes of the 1950s highlight the O scale Nassau Division.November 2017: Z scale in a closet - This 2 x 3-foot layout features the steam-to-diesel transition-era in southern Indiana.
August 2017: A Z scale piece of the USA in France - Homemade photo-etched and 3-D-printed parts enhance a coal-hauling layout with handlaid track.January 2017: Scratchbuild a diesel shell from styrene - This S scale Whitcomb 65-ton locomotive started as a cardboard mock-up.And there were three O-scale and one Z-scale product reviews, plus at least two "Heritage Fleet" columns on O-scale.Is it a lot? Nope. But it's there.
I never claimed any percentage figures about any scale, but your post and others just validate my view that the magazine title would be more appropriate as HO & N Scale Monthly, than MR.
The as shown small coverage and Holier than Thou attitude of many HO and N scalers are why, I no longer subscribe to HO &N Scale Monthly, I mean MR.
Just give the magazine a more accurate title is my point.
Doug,
You know, I have been at this hobby about 50 years, and my family was in this business, and I grew up working in hobby shops selling model trains - of all scales.
And I have print copies on MR back into the 50's. There was a lot more two rail O scale back then..........
I considered it at one point, and you know what I decided? I decided I wanted to model more than just one small part of some short line.
And while I live pretty well, and have spend a good bit on model trains in 50 years (most of those trains I still have by the way), and have a 1,000 sq ft train room, I have never seen this hobby as something where I could or would spend thousands of dollars on one locomotive, or hundreds of dollars on one piece of rolling stock.
Model Railroader is just a reflection of what the modelers have chosen, nothing more, nothing less.
We sometimes want to think they lead the way somehow, but they don't. They simply reflect the trends.
Sorry the trends are not what interest you.
I have the same problem in a different way. I am an HO modeler, but I have no interest in DCC or sound. It's been several decades since there was any good DC signaling or control articles in MR............
I could write one, about my own advanced cab control system with CTC, working interlockings, signals, working ATC, radio throttles, etc - but no one is interested.
Two rail O scale has also become a niche market in this hobby, partly because it requires all three of the following:
Lots of money
Lots of space
And a pretty high level of modeling skill given the limited selection of products.
That is by default going to be a limited group of people.
Most of us can't or won't afford the dues in your club....sorry you think we are the snobs......we are the proletariat......
challenger3980 Basically Model Railroader is an inaccurate title for the Magazine and Forum, it Should be Titled HO & N Scale Monthly.
Basically Model Railroader is an inaccurate title for the Magazine and Forum, it Should be Titled HO & N Scale Monthly.
By some estimates, HO is around 70 percent of the hobby, with N coming in around 15. You sell to you buyers and that group is pretty clearly defined.
If you actually look at page counts and compare them to buyer percentages, I scale, particularly traction, gets disproportionately more press coverage.
Check out 3rd Rail by Sunset Models, Most if not all of their models are available in both 2 and 3 rail versions, don't let the name Fool you.
3rd Rail has a Reputation for Very ACCURATE, Well Detailed and Excellent running models, at for the market, very competetive prices.
Definitely check out their "Boneyard" which often has Warehouse finds and other remaining or repaired stock, all of which comes with a Full Warranty. You can often find what is an otherwise Hard to Find item from previous production runs.
3rd Rail would be well worth a look for you.
These locos were made in brass, and there are brass retailers, such as brasstrains.com, that offer that sort of stuff. If you don't like buying online, you might want to view the brasstrains.com selection on their website and pick it up in person in Florida... Looking at the prices of these items, I would consider doing that if I was not that far away (Canada). But it's a great excuse to travel to Florida!
Start here:
http://www.oscalewest.com/
Check out this layout:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBcSz9iI7nY
And this layout:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3c7BQBrSC8
See this site:
http://www.keymodels.net/
Hopefully these sites will give some ideas..
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
traindaddy1I'm truly sorry that you "don't get 'my' off-the-wall question???
OK, looking at all of the other contributers, your looking for pros and cons of going to O scale, and why someone would pick HO over O.
For me, I like HO, it's more "real" to me, say compared to the MTH Rail King O scale layout my grandson has, but I do see possibilities with it.
I thought about S scale at one time, and I do have some On3 equipment, but I just like HO.
Space is also a consideration of mine, and N is too small for me to work on.
I've seen some 2 rail O scale at train shows, and it looks good.
Mike.
My You Tube
I gave my son the choice of whether to go with HO or O for our layout. He chose HO.
If I was starting I'd still probably choose HO, For me the choice comes down to a few things.
-Price. We're doing railroading on a budget and while most scales have some budget options, there's just no comparison to the amount of incredible used deals on HO stuff. We happen to live close to the monthly Great Midwest Train Show and if you're patient and don't need the latest-and-greatest, almost everything will show up cheap.
-Space requirements. With a 9x5 to work with HO was a slightly better choice. I still would have been happy working with 0'27'ish stuff in a compressed space but that HO is better for that.
That said, my situation is slightly unique in that if he'd choosen O, I have enough 1/56-1/48 wargaming terrain (dirty and worn but not ruins) to have put together a convincing 9x5 city table almost immediately.
Visit the Chicago Valley Railroad for Chicago Trainspotting and Budget Model Railroading.
There might be a material change in the look and feel of the forum if there were separate sub forums for O, S, HO and N. On the other hand, maybe a forum, in a hobby as small as ours, maybe it can't be all things to all people.
I was younger than Mel when I talked my parents into ditching American Flyer and buying HO scale. I'm not quite sure how I won the argument, but I could squeeze more stuff into the 4x8 sheet of plywood with HO.
One could make the same argument about moving from HO to N, except it does not compute in my imagination. Size matters.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
On30 is kind of a growing sub-market that has its followers; your more likely to find On30 modelers than you are to find 2-rail O-Scale or Proto:48 modelers (at least from what I have heard from and read in sources online). The narrowgauge size of On30 allows for layouts that take up space more similar to an HO layout, yet with the O scale size for detail. At least it seems to be popular here out west with the omnipresent wave of DRGW narrow gauge nostalgia freaking everywhere...As for 3-rail O-gauge toy trains stuff? Lionel still seems to be holding on fine, but I don't have much appeal for it other than the thought of getting a O-gauge set to run around a Christmas Tree sometime in the future. I can't understand how Lionel can be considered a "toy" when its priced out of the range of most children and families due to their collector oriented nature. I wonder how well they will be able to keep selling those collector oriented trains of theirs in another generation as more and more of the kids from the 1940's & 1950's fall out of the hobby. I can tell you, that I have met very very few people of my age who have ever had any interest in 3-rail O-gauge toys. Also, mind you Model Railroader is a reader submitted article type of magazine. If you feel there is a lack of O-scale content that is because there are O-scalers who are NOT writing and submitting articles on their layouts. Its the same reason we seem to have a glut of Appalacian and Colorado set layouts in the magazine, because those happen to be the people who take the time to sit down and describe their work.