Also in my basement, behind the picture of some of my layout areas, room for a structure/scenery construction center, and a very large hardcopy model railroad library. There is a lot of room for all aspects of my hobby in my basement. Oh, almost forgot, plenty of storage space under all the layout surfaces for piles of family stuff.
Doughless richhotrain Space, cost, and availability are the three principal reasons for the lack of widespread popularity of O scale. Rich Agreed. Just too big, not just a space thing. The locos and rolling stock are wonderful. The detail is exquisite and the sound can begin to sound less tinny than HO onboard sound, so the equipment is great. But everything has to be bigger, and better detailed. How about hills, mountains, and trees; and people. How much more detailed would all of this have to be?
richhotrain Space, cost, and availability are the three principal reasons for the lack of widespread popularity of O scale. Rich
Space, cost, and availability are the three principal reasons for the lack of widespread popularity of O scale.
Rich
Agreed. Just too big, not just a space thing. The locos and rolling stock are wonderful. The detail is exquisite and the sound can begin to sound less tinny than HO onboard sound, so the equipment is great.
But everything has to be bigger, and better detailed. How about hills, mountains, and trees; and people. How much more detailed would all of this have to be?
Space, cost and availability are not issues for many of us in my opinion. I snapped a picture of part of my basement, entirely devoted to model trains. There is a lot more basement not showing behind the camera and behind the wall on the right. All of the homes in my neighbourhood have basements this size or bigger - our home is smaller than most here. There is plenty of room for a great O scale layout, plus HO and N layouts too ( both of the latter in progress in the picture). Cost and availability can be minimized by building my own structures, rail cars, etc. My layouts don't depend on manufacturers making stuff I want or need, I do that. And, adding detail is not work, it's the most fun part of the entire hobby for me.
Paul3For example, take this year's Springfield Show. Certainly the largest train show in the country and all scales are represented therein (even Lego). There were at least 28 layouts. HO was, by far, the dominant scale with 14 HO layouts (50%). O had 6, N = 2, G = 4 and S = 1 (plus one Lego). And it's not just the number of layouts, it is the size of them.
But there is no Z layout and yet some number of folks are in Z - at least enough that there's a magazine for it. This is another example of anecdotal evidence. It's interesting and indicative that HO is a popular scale. However, if you went to the York show I suspect that you would have a very different set of numbers.
Paul3Sorry, but HO is clearly the dominant scale.
But is it dominant? or just the most popular.
Paul3the clear advantage of HO is indisputable.
By this do you mean it's the best scale to be in? That's really a subjective determination each of us makes based on our own desires of what we want out of the hobby.
Paul
IRONROOSTER,Regarding the ratio of scales in the hobby, you're right in that no one survey is going to be capable of doing a 100% accurate poll. Any poll will be biased either for or against certain scales depending on who runs it. So lets look at certain things or events that embrace the entire spectrum of the hobby like train shows, items for sale, or clubs.
For example, take this year's Springfield Show. Certainly the largest train show in the country and all scales are represented therein (even Lego). There were at least 28 layouts. HO was, by far, the dominant scale with 14 HO layouts (50%). O had 6, N = 2, G = 4 and S = 1 (plus one Lego). And it's not just the number of layouts, it is the size of them.
Looking at the show diagram (http://www.railroadhobbyshow.com/files/files/ARS%202018%20Floor%20Plan.v4.1.FINAL(2).pdf), and doing some quick and dirty math, I get a total of 4620 linear feet of layouts (the circumfrence of all the layouts combined). Of these, 2568' are HO. Doing the math, I get 55%.
Or look at the Walthers catalogs for each scale (pre-2017 when they combined things). The HO catalog was typically 1000+ pages. The Large Scale (O, S, G, etc.) catalog was less than 400 pages. The N & Z catalog was also less than 400 pages, I believe. If it's 1800 total Walthers pages, HO would be around 55% of the market.
Another measure of popularity are clubs. I can't speak for the entire nation, but here in Southern New England (MA, CT & RI - population 11+million) there are at least 32 different club layouts/groups (some clubs do multiple scales). Of these 32 layouts, 19 of them are HO scale, which is 59%.
Sorry, but HO is clearly the dominant scale. While the exact percentage is debatable (why would you think it's less than 50%?), the clear advantage of HO is indisputable.
OldSchoolScratchbuilder Another comment that came up in this thread was the not-so-nice and not very realistic look of O gauge three rails. I have to agree that most are, not very attractive, but there is one I like a lot. MTH ScaleTrax has a small cross-section centre rail and it is black. I have shown with and without ballast. I also like the look in ballast (this is processed shale from Walton, NS). And, this O-72 turnout is a marvelous piece of model railroad technology!
Another comment that came up in this thread was the not-so-nice and not very realistic look of O gauge three rails. I have to agree that most are, not very attractive, but there is one I like a lot. MTH ScaleTrax has a small cross-section centre rail and it is black. I have shown with and without ballast. I also like the look in ballast (this is processed shale from Walton, NS). And, this O-72 turnout is a marvelous piece of model railroad technology!
I would have to agree with you except...track pans...
Also IMO, RCS is a better product, when I was in O, RCS was all I used. Made in US of A, pretty much never goes out of stock, and they are pretty nice people.
Wood ties and machined points.
7j43kI have heard that the term "tinplate" was based on the use by Lionel, among others, of steel rail that was tinplated to lessen rust. Thus I would think you would be using such track. While 0-72 makes a pretty nice big circle at about 36" radius, regular Lionel 0 was 15 1/2 in radius.
Except Joe323 explicitly stated 3rail scale..so no, he would probably need O72 (or larger, yes I think it goes to O128 now).
Examples of scale locomotives that wont run on O27 or O31 curves
3Rail NYC Hudson (O36 or O54)
NYC Hudson with PT-2,3 or 4 tender O72
NYC Niagara PT-5 tender O72
B&A A-1 Berkshire O54
NYC Mohawks (all- O54, Lionel one you can lie to and run around O48 at very slow speeds, ive seen it done)
P&LE A-2 Berkshire O54
USRA 0-8-0 (O31 or O36)
NYC USRA 2-8-2 (O36 little fuzzy on this one)
F3 ABA set (O36 or O54 little fuzzy)
E8 ABA set (O54 also fuzzy may have been O72)
So... Space not covered..
Time...probably same as HO to be honest
Money...well lets not turn this into one of those threads, but scale stuff is comparable to new production HO brass (read that as you will spend approximately the same amount acquiring the locomotives as you would if pre-ordered new brass). Freight cars and passenger cars are about the same, except you cant buy singles from MTH.. though shalt only buy 5 car sets or 2 car expansion packs with dining car or single dome cars that NYC never owned....freight cars are also leaning that way, you can buy only 6 car sets unless your dealer is willing to break up a set for you.
BRAKIE cuyama We've been through this many times. It's still not accurate, no matter where you heard it. "Industrial" railroads have a specific meaning in the real world -- and it's not any generic switching area worked by a Class 1, Regional, or Shortline. Industrial Switching: A service performed by a railroad for delivering or picking up cars at industries. Layout: What a model railroader builds to operate his models on.
cuyama We've been through this many times. It's still not accurate, no matter where you heard it. "Industrial" railroads have a specific meaning in the real world -- and it's not any generic switching area worked by a Class 1, Regional, or Shortline.
Industrial Switching: A service performed by a railroad for delivering or picking up cars at industries.
Layout: What a model railroader builds to operate his models on.
To this point, Genessee and Wyoming has an entirely separate business unit with a different name for indstrial switching. Different POC than other customers and everything.
7j43kI think the term "Industrial Switching Layout" (ISL) is very clear.
Honestly the first time I read it I thought you were talking about steel mills or breweries or industrial parks.
richhotrain Space, cost, and availability are the three principal reasons for the lack of widespread popularity of O scale. In my personal opinion, though, the lack of available locos, rolling stock, and structures is the primary reason. I might add a fourth reason. O scale is too big. I am not talking about the need for greater space. I am addressing the issue of size. Once again, in my personal opinion, HO scale is the perfect size for home modeling. Not too big, not too small. Rich
Space, cost, and availability are the three principal reasons for the lack of widespread popularity of O scale. In my personal opinion, though, the lack of available locos, rolling stock, and structures is the primary reason.
I might add a fourth reason. O scale is too big. I am not talking about the need for greater space. I am addressing the issue of size. Once again, in my personal opinion, HO scale is the perfect size for home modeling. Not too big, not too small.
If I got into model building, I could see having two or three structures on a layout, then spending time detailing them to the nth degree. All of the scenery items too. Now, the final product would be immensly impressive, IMO. But I'm also an operator and it would simply take too much time to detail all of the background and scenery items to the level it needs to be.
Just too much detail and time needed to make it look right, IMO.
- Douglas
Actually, most in this discussion are refering to "two rail" O "scale", with track, wheel and coupler standards similar to HO, just larger. And to reasonably accurate 1/4" to the foot scale models.
Sheldon
Terminology aside, for some time now my layout design approach keeps industries and their sidings mostly separate from the mainline, just like you typically see in major cities where industries are often served by belt lines connected directly to yards and their activities do not affect the flow of mainline traffic.
So from Larry's point of view, I have several "ISL's" within my larger double track mainline layout.
All of which would be hard to do in the same way with O scale, even with unlimited space, time and money.
Oh, heck, why do I bother?
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
cuyamaWe've been through this many times. It's still not accurate, no matter where you heard it. "Industrial" railroads have a specific meaning in the real world -- and it's not any generic switching area worked by a Class 1, Regional, or Shortline.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
cuyama BRAKIE A ISL can be used for any railroad,short line or terminal switching road. I first heard ISL at a Industrial Switching Layout clinic several years ago We've been through this many times. It's still not accurate, no matter where you heard it. "Industrial" railroads have a specific meaning in the real world -- and it's not any generic switching area worked by a Class 1, Regional, or Shortline. But it seems it's futile to try for accuracy and clarity on this forum.
BRAKIE A ISL can be used for any railroad,short line or terminal switching road. I first heard ISL at a Industrial Switching Layout clinic several years ago
We've been through this many times. It's still not accurate, no matter where you heard it. "Industrial" railroads have a specific meaning in the real world -- and it's not any generic switching area worked by a Class 1, Regional, or Shortline.
But it seems it's futile to try for accuracy and clarity on this forum.
I think the term "Industrial Switching Layout" (ISL) is very clear. And accurate. It means a layout where industrial switching predominates. "Industrial switching" is switching that has little, if any, mainline running for the trains. As opposed to Frank Ellison's "wayside switching" where there's a bit of mainline traveling between tasks.
I see nothing in the term that restricts or defines what the railroad entity must be that is on the layout.
I also think it means nothing more. Which may be what's causing angst. And perhaps verklempt.
Ed
joe323 I like O scale tinplate and would gladly start a three rail O scale IF I had the money space and time. Since I don't I stay in HO,
I like O scale tinplate and would gladly start a three rail O scale IF I had the money space and time.
Since I don't I stay in HO,
I have heard that the term "tinplate" was based on the use by Lionel, among others, of steel rail that was tinplated to lessen rust.
Thus I would think you would be using such track. While 0-72 makes a pretty nice big circle at about 36" radius, regular Lionel 0 was 15 1/2 in radius. Pretty much less than anything in HO.
So it would appear space is covered.
Time, I think, is also. That's because there is no slavish attention to detail. Since it's obviously toy-like, you don't have to get all detaily.
Money? That all depends on how much you spend.
Anyway, I have a pretty decent Lionel tinplate layout stored in the garage. I built it about 20 years ago, when I got back into trains, and thought Lionel would be fun. It kind of is, although most of the accessories don't actually work very well.
Then I saw my first Kadee boxcar, and it was all over. Hello (again), HO.
Not apples and oranges at all. Here are four used O gauge cars, three of them I repaired and modified, for the same price as one new CN covered hopper. This more than offsets the locomotive price differences for the same number of cars in both scales .
BRAKIEA ISL can be used for any railroad,short line or terminal switching road. I first heard ISL at a Industrial Switching Layout clinic several years ago
This is relevant to my situation!
I grew up building 3-rail O and now I am currently building an N Scale layout. College and then law school put a damper on that but I graduated about a month ago and decided to return to the hobby. I live in the city so space is at a premium (my envelope was 26" by 50"), O just wasn't an option for that reason. Similarly, I could really only have a switching layout in HO, this is how I landed on N eventhough I own a couple thousand $$$ worth of 3-rail equipment.
The other thing to remember with O is that 1/48 really encompases 3 different groups of people. You have your toy train people, you have your scale 3-railers, and you have O scale. These groups of people don't really buy the same stuff save for buildings that the hi-rail and O scale people can both use. As others have pointed out this drives up the cost of O equipment of all types.
Just an N scale guy in an HO scale world.
Reading Railroad in a small space.
OldSchoolScratchbuilder Added up the cost of my O scale/gauge pre-order of 6 locomotives, 6 ore cars, MTH track, train set for my grandson, Legacy control system. Comes in under $10 k (CDN). I have spent a lot more than that on HO over the last two years.
Added up the cost of my O scale/gauge pre-order of 6 locomotives, 6 ore cars, MTH track, train set for my grandson, Legacy control system. Comes in under $10 k (CDN). I have spent a lot more than that on HO over the last two years.
Mike
Joe Staten Island West
I would like to thank all of you for your replies to my post.
Have been "into" this great hobby for over sixty years, first in "HO" and now, because this "older" body's hands and eyes aren't what they used to be, "O".
Will continue reading and, again, thanks.
Alton Junction
traindaddy1 Before you "send me to the other forums like the Classic Toys etc., I'd really like to know why, in your opinion, there isn't more interest is the larger "O". As always, many thanks.
Before you "send me to the other forums like the Classic Toys etc., I'd really like to know why, in your opinion, there isn't more interest is the larger "O".
As always, many thanks.
I am modelling all three scales/gauges: O, HO, and N. Cost and space are not an issue for me: I'll make the extra money I need somehow (legally lol) and I have a full-sized basement to work with. All my O rolling stock is/will be custom: for example, I turned an old blue and yellow Lionel Planters Peanut covered hopper into a brown ore-carrying workhorse hopper. I don't mind three rails in fact I like the look of MTH RealTrax when ballasted. I am currently kit bashing an O scale warehouse which I plan to post somewhere here because it is a real model, not a toy.
cuyamaBy the way, small switching layouts are only referred to with that acronym on this and maybe one other forum.
Mention switching layout and many modeler and this includes advanced modelers thinks "Time Saver" but mention a Industrial Switching Layout and their ears perk up.
A ISL can be used for any railroad,short line or terminal switching road.
I first heard ISL at a Industrial Switching Layout clinic several years ago.
What we should do is do away with the "Time Saver" design except as a switching contest.
riogrande5761 Ain't my figures. Just some I happened on. Add to that, MR magazines own Guide to Model Railroding Scales and Gauges states regarding HO: "more than two thirds of modelers make it their choice". Two thirds in plain math is 66.7 rounded. Take it up with out hosts and don't shoot the messenger.
Ain't my figures. Just some I happened on. Add to that, MR magazines own Guide to Model Railroding Scales and Gauges states regarding HO: "more than two thirds of modelers make it their choice". Two thirds in plain math is 66.7 rounded. Take it up with out hosts and don't shoot the messenger.
Sorry, I'm not trying to shoot the messenger.
It just seems that no one, including me, really knows. There's lots of anecdotal evidence, but no actual data. Every time I try to run down some facts, there doesn't seem to be any.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
IRONROOSTERI would be in 'X' scale but I have too much in HO to change
Russell
Here in Florida it is pretty simple, and I get these figures from discussions with hobby shop owners.
.
IF you include non-scale (Lionel and LGB), HO makes up about 50% of the market. IF you only go by scale trains (Z, N, HO, O), then HO is 65%-75% of the market.
In Florida we have a lot of older people that LOVE Lionel, and we have terrific weather and no snow, so outdoor railroading is also quite popular. I doubt these figures would hold true elsewhere.
And... Just in case you don't think Lionel is really cool... you should see some of the Lionel layouts built around Sarasota in 12 by 12 spare bedrooms. These layouts would stand up to most home layouts in terms of detail and craftsmanship. Definitley not Toy Trains, but not Scale Trains either. I think one of these was featured in Model Railroader 3-4 years ago.
Garden railroading is also something that can be done with full operation in a big Florida backyard.
-Kevin
Living the dream.