Stix,
I tried to quote your post, but something in it is broken and I cant actualy quote (i dont know what the problem is, but there is some sort of forum software error).
Anywho,
NMRA isnt excluding anyone, the National just isn't "catering" to the three-rail world (at least Mr. Getz isnt).
The Nutmeg division has toured on several occaisions 3 rail layouts, and they were just as well received as the 2 rail layouts. And at least one Large scale tinplate layout.
I dont know if we've done a On30 layout. I could ask the layout tour coordinator, but we try to hit at least one 3rail a year.
As to Lionel not making Tinplate, MTH now makes reproductions of the large scale 3 rail trains (which we also just toured back in February). I think it was a result of a lawsuit, and I believe it was somehow related to K-line (someone who says they are in the "know" told me this, but I take everything I hear about "Ogauge land" (my words as an Oguage 1:48 scale except oversize rail, claws and how did I forget Talgo trucks, guy) with a salt block (much larger than a large grain, its a farming thing).
Edit:
Wow, that was rambly and doesnt make complete sense. I blame Thimble Island Mutually Assured Distruction.
Larry, thanks. Will the old couplers be able to link with a newer loco?
The Gnome Larry, I think you are saying that 036 will not run 027 cars from the fifties. is that correct?
Larry,
I think you are saying that 036 will not run 027 cars from the fifties. is that correct?
The guy's layout look like a 0-27 layout from the 50s Lionel Ad.
0-27 cars and locomotives should be right at home on 0-36 track.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BMMECNYC Mr. Getz did lump all 3-rail into one term "tinplate" which is arguably not that accurate. I wouldnt really call anything other than tinplate "tinplate". Tinplate is actually a different thing entirely.
This is the point I was trying to make (and which you state more clearly). Tinplate to me is like the MTH/Lionel Corporation reproductions of the 1930's Blue Comet, not detailed and weathered models running on fully scenicked layouts like say Norm Charbonneau's layout.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1wreJCi2Ob-MFme9L7Lp9g
We're basically all adults playing with electric trains in the view of most 'normal' people. As NMRA membership continues to decline year after year, it seems odd to exclude a certain percentage of people who share the same interests and might wish to join us, just because their electric trains run a little differently than ours.
It's kinda splitting hairs. O Scale Railroading magazine seems to do fine showing layouts in two-rail O, hi-rail, On30, etc. Why can't the NMRA welcome all those folks too?
p.s. Yes I know the name changed, but the NMRA's magazine was "The Bulletin" for a very long time. Gets harder as you get older, I still catch myself referring to Milwaukee's baseball team as the Braves...or Kansas City as the A's.
Stix, thanks. The old cars will run on the new track. That works for me!
BRAKIEJim,I've also seen BB and Roundhouse kits $15.00 and used BB and Roundhouse with KD and metal wheels selling for $20.00 at several tables while other dealers had the same kits for far less.
Modus operandi at shows and Ebay. My point is, generally you don't have to pay elevated prices for Athearn blue box and the like. There has been a glut of kits on the market over the past 10 years after the emergence of RTR and it has been evident at the shows I go to.
I have been going to 3-4 shows a year and really haven't noticed much change myself. People comment on stuff so I make it a point to look around to see if I see those things myself, but pretty much each time I see a high availability of low priced kits at shows. Sure, things vary a bit from show to show, but over all I it doesn't seem to have changed much that I see.
My "common sense" guess as to the reason for high availability is due to: 1) people had bought/hoarded more kits than they had time to build and have been selling them off since they can buy RTR and 2) semi related, kits have been going back on the secondary market as part of estate sales as modelers with collections pass away or sell off stuff no longer needed.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
The GnomeIf i get a starter set, i can take my time finding a few used tinplate cars.
As a fun fact I've seen a pretty nice O-27 layout on a 36" x 80" hollow core door.
The guy used Lionel O-27 cars,locomotive and structures from the 50s.
Paul,
thanks. That helps. I guess that means the old stuff will run on the fastrack.
A starter set is not expensive. And i am not into building roadbeds or filing points or nailing track down, so the rtr sounds good to me.
If i get a starter set, i can take my time finding a few used tinplate cars.
not sure how the new line will interface with the on30 lines, but i can figure that out later.
The Gnome Lionel O36 FasTrack has a middle rail. does it qualify as hi-rail?
Lionel O36 FasTrack has a middle rail. does it qualify as hi-rail?
Hi rail is generally considered to be track which supports the deeper flanges of Lionel or American Flyer trains (and compatibles). In the past the smaller flange wheels did not operate these rails. Although Lionel's O gauge Fastrack is still a sheet of metal folded over, their American Flyer Fastrack has rail that is approx. code 125 and has a rail cross section like that of MicroEngineering track. It will support both deep flanges (HiRail) and RP25 flanges (Scale), although the turnouts and crossings have wide/deep flange ways for the HiRail wheels.
So yes Lionel O36 Fastrack is hirail
Paul
I love O scale 2 rail, but with only a 8 foot by 9 foot train room, I lack the space for what I would desire in a railroad. Even HO scale is tight in that space. I dislike plastic engines, diecast metal or brass is prefered and I am a diesel person, so mostly high doller brass if I want modern diesels. I do have an old All Nation F3 that I am slowly painting up in Monon passenger colors for display purposes. For what most O scale brass diesels sell for, I can get G scale for my garden railway or 1 1/2 inch scale for my ride on line my wife and I just started building.
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
riogrande5761 IRONROOSTER Well, the train shows I have been going to lately want $7-10 and up for Athearn BB - some as high as $15. But you're right, the cheapest O scale I have seen lately at train shows run $20 to $25. Paul Paul, do you go to the Timonium show? I really thought I've seen Athearn bb kits and the like there for less than what you quoted, but I haven't really priced them the last couple times. I have picked up nice RTR Intermountain and ExactRail there for as little as $8 (IMRC) and $10 (ExactRail). I'm just up the road from you on 15 about 10 miles and I think I still make it to Timonium in less than 2 hours on Saturdays. (I do grocery shopping in Culpeper on weekends )
IRONROOSTER Well, the train shows I have been going to lately want $7-10 and up for Athearn BB - some as high as $15. But you're right, the cheapest O scale I have seen lately at train shows run $20 to $25. Paul
Well, the train shows I have been going to lately want $7-10 and up for Athearn BB - some as high as $15. But you're right, the cheapest O scale I have seen lately at train shows run $20 to $25.
Paul, do you go to the Timonium show? I really thought I've seen Athearn bb kits and the like there for less than what you quoted, but I haven't really priced them the last couple times. I have picked up nice RTR Intermountain and ExactRail there for as little as $8 (IMRC) and $10 (ExactRail). I'm just up the road from you on 15 about 10 miles and I think I still make it to Timonium in less than 2 hours on Saturdays. (I do grocery shopping in Culpeper on weekends )
I do go to Timonium shows with my son (I drive to Sterling, he drives from there) to most shows. I also, hit a smattering of Greenberg and local shows like the Bunker Hill Train Club show in Ransom, WV.
The prices to me seem to be going up. I'm not really into collecting Athearn BB, but I do collect MDC/Roundhouse Old Timers. So I kind of notice the used HO prices and it seems like Athearn BB has been creeping up over the last 2-3 years. But I am only interested in unbuilt kits (used new stuff so to speak), so maybe the used built ones loose in cardboard boxes are less. I consider those to be junk boxes and just skip over them - although that may be too harsh.
Of course at a train show you can occaisionally find a good price - I picked up a couple of TrainMinature boxcar kits for $4 a piece last year. But those were the only unbuilt new in box kits sitting in card board box, the rest were used cars without boxes just sort of heaped in there. So finds at good prices are there, just not the norm.
Although I understand the idea that all our trains are "toys", I kinda go more for what Louis Hertz (IIRC) believed - that they're ALL models, as all electric trains are miniature versions of real trains. Some are just more accurate than others.
If we're saying scale trains have to run on 'scale' track...I'd note that running 1:48 scale equipment on O gauge (1.25" gauge) track means running on track that's five feet wide in scale, instead of the correct 4' 8-1/2" standard gauge....no matter how high the rails are!
BTW you know Lionel hasn't made "tinplate" track for several years now. They only do their "Fastrack" with scale ties and roadbed.
http://www.lionelstore.com/LionelStore%20Product%20Images/612033-1.jpg
When I was a "hi-railer" in the 1970's-80's most of my equipment - except for some craftsman's kits I built - were the old Atlas cars (both RTR and kits). They came with wheels with deep flanges that ran fine on 'tinplate' track from Lionel or K-Line. It was very easy to remove the large truck-mounted Lionel compatible (more or less) couplers and put in Kadees. I presume the deep flanges worked just as well on Atlas' O two-rail track they produced then...so I'm not clear how putting a car on two rail track makes it 'scale' but the exact same car sitting on three rail track is a 'toy'?
Sunset Models Inc. had a "3rd Rail" line of 1:48 brass engines that run on three-rail track.
http://www.3rdrail.com/
These engines are a lot more detailed than some of the "scale models" currently on the market.
riogrande5761I really thought I've seen Athearn bb kits and the like there for less than what you quoted, but I haven't really priced them the last couple times.
Jim,I've also seen BB and Roundhouse kits $15.00 and used BB and Roundhouse with KD and metal wheels selling for $20.00 at several tables while other dealers had the same kits for far less.
I seen a guy fork over $65.00 for a new undecorated BB SW7 cow and calf set. Both engines was powered He was happy as a 2 headed woodpecker in a bucket of worms since these was new and both had their detail bag..
Hey Paul3
Although you somewhat offended me a little, I can laugh along with it.
No big thing here and with all due respect you should read your text a little more closely before you make a false analogy. And since you grouped SeeYou190 and myself together I'll clarify what he said too. Basically in a nutshell he said O scale trains that run on 3 rails are considered a toy by the NMRA but the ones that run on two rails are not. He went on to say he doesn't know what the big hang-up is, he could even consider his four-wheel-drive a toy. Basically I elaborated on what he said in a little more detail. I did not categorize our model trains alone as toys either. I basically said everything in the world that is acquired and fun can be considered a toy. Bigger boys have bigger toys. I don't know about you but when I take my 69 classic car and go 0 to 60 in 5 seconds, alert and aware of my surroundings and doing it only where it's safe, such as a controlled environment...... It's a Fun Toy! .... No sense putting rocket science to it.
Okay then, I feel good about setting things straight.... have a great day
Paul3 I can go to any train show in the US and find an Athearn BB car for $5 or less. Can you say the same about scale O-scale?
OTOH if you're happy with plastic wheels and horn hook couplers, I'm not sure why the 3 rail wheels and couplers bother you.
Paul3 A toy is something for a child to play with and something of little to no value (by dictionary definition). Now, scale models are not for children (choking hazards along with breakable parts) and some are quite expensive in time or money spent. They are hardly toys. Tinplate O or S are indeed toys: they are meant for children to play with.
You need to check prices if you think Tinplate is of "little to no value". New Tinplate is more expensive than plastic. And the plastic can be quite expensive. A lot of it has fragile details to boot. By your definition "Tinplate O or S" are not toys.
Paul3The problem will calling everything in our hobby a "toy" is that the word is not really a compliment nor is it really accurate for scale modeling. A toy is something for a child to play with and something of little to no value (by dictionary definition). Now, scale models are not for children (choking hazards along with breakable parts) and some are quite expensive in time or money spent. They are hardly toys.
What is the old saying? The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys. I'm past caring anymore if someone calls my fine scale models "toys". I'm not bothered.
In the grand scheme of the universe, these trains we have really are "toys" for our amusement, even if they are more "sophisticated" vs. childrens toys.
wjstix,For one thing, many of the 3-rail models are not the same as their 2-rail versions. The couplers, coupler pockets, coupler mounts are all different. The wheels tend to be smaller and the flanges are huge. Diesels tend to have split pilots to handle sharper curves and other compromises are made for them to operate on very tight curves. So yes, they aren't scale models but are instead toy trains because the emphasis isn't on the accurate reproduction of the prototype, but instead on the ability to be played with. The fact that they share the same shell of a scale model is irrelevent.
BMMECNYC,Well, there is a prototype for center 3rd rail that I know of, and that's the Nantasket Beach Branch of the New Haven RR in Hingham and Hull, Mass. It was one of the first heavy electric lines in the USA and used an "A" shaped center rail to supply DC power to the self-propelled cars and motor baggage cars.http://www.catskillarchive.com/rrextra/3rail.Html
It was eventually removed due to the electrocution hazard because people that wanted to cross the tracks would step on an outside rail then step on the center rail. Bzzzt!SeeYou190, and Track fiddler,The problem will calling everything in our hobby a "toy" is that the word is not really a compliment nor is it really accurate for scale modeling. A toy is something for a child to play with and something of little to no value (by dictionary definition). Now, scale models are not for children (choking hazards along with breakable parts) and some are quite expensive in time or money spent. They are hardly toys.
Tinplate O or S are indeed toys: they are meant for children to play with.
Put it this way: a scale model of a building made by an architect for a client is something no one would call a toy. I do the same thing, and suddenly it's a toy? Nope. Not buying that.
IRONROOSTER,Sure, some HO is more expensive than O scale. I have brass HO locos that cost way more than even scale O-scale plastic locos. But there is no equivalent to Athearn in O-scale. I can go to any train show in the US and find an Athearn BB car for $5 or less. Can you say the same about scale O-scale?
For me I don't have a basement the size of a gymnasium or Convention Center. I am generous to my hobby but spending $500-1,000 or more on a locomotive does not fit my budget parameters for this hobby, not even close.
If what I stated above was feasible I probably would do O scale. The bigger the better right.
There is trade-offs with a big scale like O in comparison with N scale. One must be willing to spend a whole lot more time on detail. You can pretty much almost see a fly on a telephone pole in O scale. On the other end of the spectrum N scale is much more forgiving. HO scale is the happy medium right in between.
Maybe that's why HO is so popular (edit) and O scale some what takes the backseat.
The scale is 1:48. If your trains are 1:48 it's O scale. Sure the track may be a little high, but except for some very small protoXX groups, everyone's models are out of scale in some parts like wheels, couplers, etc.
And some big manufacturer's sell their trains with both "HiRail" wheels and "Scale" wheels like Atlas. When it comes to structures their is very little difference - Plasticville is available in HO and O, so is Woodland Scenics.
The only real difference here is size. But that works both ways depending on what you're doing and what you want out of the hobby.
richhotrainis more expensive than HO
I dunno, some of those HO cars are pretty expensive - over $60.
BMMECNYC richhotrain All of which strays from the initial question, why not O. Answer: It is too big, takes up too much space, is more expensive than HO or N, and lacks the the availability and diversity of smaller scale locos, rolling stock and structures. Rich Well, doesnt that depend if the op was asking about wht O isnt covered in MR very much. Then its kind of applicable. But not fully.
richhotrain All of which strays from the initial question, why not O. Answer: It is too big, takes up too much space, is more expensive than HO or N, and lacks the the availability and diversity of smaller scale locos, rolling stock and structures. Rich
All of which strays from the initial question, why not O.
Answer: It is too big, takes up too much space, is more expensive than HO or N, and lacks the the availability and diversity of smaller scale locos, rolling stock and structures.
Rich
Well, doesnt that depend if the op was asking about wht O isnt covered in MR very much. Then its kind of applicable. But not fully.
Here is what the OP asked in his initial post:
Before you "send me to the other forums like the Classic Toys etc., I'd really like to know why, in your opinion, there isn't more interest is the larger "O".
Alton Junction
You got a point Kevin and I look at it this way.
Everything's a toy. It started that way at childhood and been that way ever since.
Bigger boys have bigger toys. Some of the kids that played with their trucks a lot when they where kids have an excavation company now.
Some of the kids that played with her Hot Wheels a lot, now have a classic car or two, restore them for a living, or both.
People with lots of money have yachts and jets. Those are nice toys! I don't think they played with boats and planes when they were kids. They just have lots of money.
The Trains we admired and watched all the time when we were kids were just too neat. A little plastic one that rolled back and forth just wasn't good enough. It didn't Rumble, Hiss, Shake the Ground, and Thunder Down the Rails. But they were just too darn big to play with and certainly would not fit in the basement. We were all forced to downsize.
Still love trains
PS..... All the other kids toys got bigger. I guess ours started out as Huge Steel Beasts and somehow just got smaller. They're still real neat to watch though..... It's a Model Railroad thing they probably wouldn't understand.
wjstixThe editorial basically says any O layout with three rails is a "toy train" layout, and the NMRA doesn't cover "toys". So a $1200 Sunset brass locomotive that's made to run on two-rail O gauge track is a "scale model", but the exact same engine built to run on three-rail O gauge track is a "toy".
.
Both these models, as well as all my HO locomotives, are toys.
Why do we get so hung up on this? My model soldiers are toys, my 4WD truck is a toy, we all play with toys.
-Kevin
Living the dream.