As many know I am wanting to "get into" a locomotive and do some kitbashing, wiring, ect... anyways before I get in over my head in Project Big Bad John I thought I'd try something a little less scratchbuilding and more just modifying... so I thought of taking a Rivarossi El Cheapo Grande Big Boy and Cab Forward and make the two into a 4-8-8-4 Cab Forward then detail and paint the locomotive... would you guys agree that'd be something that would be a good first kitbash? I really would like a locomotive not a building or a price of rolling stock...
Steve
If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!
NWP SWPwould you guys agree that'd be something that would be a good first kitbash? I really would like a locomotive not a building or a price of rolling stock...
No, I would not agree. A piece of rolling stock may not be as "glamorous" as a 4-8-8-4 Big Boy Cab Forward but it's where you need to start. You need to prove you can make modifications on a smaller scale than trying to bite off more than you can chew.
I know that's not the answer you wanted, Steven, but it's the truth. Start out simple then tackle more and more complicated projects.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
So you suggest,
Piece of rolling stock,
Big Boy Cab Forward,
Big Bad John...
Right?
Am I the only one that sees a pattern here? Evert time this kid talks himself into a corner he changes subjects and starts a new thread.
Here we go again
There are so many things that would have to be done, such as re wiring to get the tender leads enter the front of the locomotive, not to mention trying to create a plausible "front face" for the Big Boy cab, that no, I do not think it would be a good first kitbash. Plus, assuming the workmanship was clean and neat I suppose it could be amusing to see ... once. Sounds like a lot of work for the results.
I suggest getting the hang of steam kitbashing with something more narrow and focused. Like swapping cabs, or smokebox fronts, or pilots. Removing cast on domes and replacing with others. That sort of thing, where you have a pretty good certainty that 1) you will finish the thing and 2) the experience will give you the skills to tackle what you want, because without experience you might destroy your raw materials. Believe me that can be crushing.
What el cheapo steam do you have? Sometimes that is the first step in deciding what kitbash to tackle. And not all kitbashing involves radical Frankenstein-like piecing together of disparate parts. I always thought an interesting and challenging kitbash would be to take the AHM/Rivarossi Indiana Harbor Belt 0-8-0 and try to approximate the somewhat similar looking Missouri Pacific 0-8-0 (AHM offered the engine in MoPac paint so at least the tender would be more or less OK).
Years ago Kemtron (I think) offered the raw materials to kitbash the classic B&O "Dockside" 0-4-0T into a cab forward 4-4-0T. (remembering that the "4" pilot truck would be under the firebox and cab). For a long time I toyed with the idea of using the brass casting of the cab forward front from Kemtron to try to make my AHM plastic cab forward look like an earlier class of SP with the flat front for the cab.
I happen to think a more interesting kitbash if you do have an El Cheapo Big Boy and cab forward (I assume AHM/Rivarossi) and the skills, would be to see how close you could come to a DM&IR Yellowstone, or something sort of like it. Maybe more work, but at least your efforts would be to try to resemble something that actually existed. I thought of doing that one too. Never did. At best it would somewhat resemble, and the tender would be similar but not correct, but that level of "close but no cigar" can be good enough for many ardent kitbashers.
Don't discount the value of starting with rolling stock or a structure because part of the skill and art of kitbashing is learning how to mate styrene parts from different sources in a way that is clean, neat, and convincing.
Somewhat OT but back in the 1960s and early 1970s, AHM used to offer their various locomotives (and rolling stock) in so called "Funeral Sales" -- three for the price of one of mildly damaged trains, with the thought that you might actually get two fully working locomotives by using one as a parts supply for the others. And since their parts were cheap, often you could get all three to be acceptable for a modest added outlay. A pretty nice deal.
But for those in the know -- AHM did not advertise this much -- they also offered paper sacks full of locomotives for $10 called "Roundhouse Rubble" -- stuff too far gone to be sold as part of the Funeral Sale. You had no control over what you got -- their choice. But they were generous in stuffing that paper sack with trains, steam, diesel, extra tenders and motors, boilers only, cabs only. It was paradise for the avid kitbasher.
Alas, so long ago and so far away.
Dave Nelson
NWP SWP So you suggest, Piece of rolling stock, Big Boy Cab Forward, Big Bad John... Right?
No, I would suggest putting together the following:
After you've completed those projects THEN you should be better prepared for tackling a kitbash or scratchbuilt locomotive project. You might need to do several small- and medium-sized projects before tackling what you've proposed. Yea, it may seem like a daunting task but you'll gain a plethora of handskills and experience in the process.
Again, start simple and slowly work towards the complex. You can't cut corners when it comes to gaining useful and transferable life experiences.
UNCLEBUTCH Am I the only one that sees a pattern here?
Am I the only one that sees a pattern here?
No.
I vote to give him a Big Boy, and a saw, and some CA, and some wire, and some solder, and some paint, etc. Then ban him from the forum until he finishes that project and he posts photos of the result. In the meanwhile we can place bets on the outcome.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
Thanks Tom I'll work on that...
As far as those who want to ban me please read this article specifically the symptoms of Aspergers... it might help you have more patience...
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome&ved=0ahUKEwiSif-Nv8TYAhVCtFMKHb9tAq4QFggvMAI&usg=AOvVaw3nIgTZemCLO_P-2qQz8wGG
I'm not trying to hide behind my affliction but it's who and how I am nothing you or I say can change that...
UNCLEBUTCH Am I the only one that sees a pattern here? Evert time this kid talks himself into a corner he changes subjects and starts a new thread. Here we go again
The kid has a name. It's Steven.
Yes, he goes round and round with multiple posts and new ideas all the time. On the flip side, some of them turn into decent discussions about other topics that pertain to Model Railroading.
When you're on the sub-forum browsing topics, you should see a line similar to this under each topic's heading:" Posted 1 hour ago by (USER NAME) "
If his topics annoy you, you can ignore them when you see that he's the one that started them.
But by rights, he's following the rules of the forum.
This space reserved for SpaceMouse's future presidential candidacy advertisements
tstage1: Several (min. 6) more complex rolling stock kits - Bowser, Intermountain, Red Caboose, Proto 2000, Branchline...in that order 2: A wood laser kit - AMB, Branchline, Blair Line, Bar Mills, GCLaser, etc.
.
Steven, this is very good advice. Please listen to Tstage on this. Until you have assembled the more difficult plastic kits you really have no idea what you are getting into.
This makes it difficult to post advice that is helpful, because you really have no idea how much you don't know and the skills you need to develop.
Please answer this question: Have you ever drilled two #78 holes into a plastic freight car and installed a wire grab iron?
If you have not even done this yet, please don't ask about difficult kitbashes anymore. You really need to get some perspective on the topics you are discussing and you can only get this perspective by building.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
NWP SWPplease read this article specifically the symptoms of Aspergers...
Thanks for the article Steven. Very informative!
We have a club member who has Autism. He is a great guy! He does have his specific interests of course, but I find it very interesting to listen to him. He knows more about Public Transit buses than the guys who built them! We are fortunate in that almost all of the club members accept his situation and treat him well.
As for the nay sayers, you already know how to deal with them. You don't need my advice.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Here's an analogy. Saying you want to tackle these sort of projects as a first project is akin to saying that you want to get into playing quarterback by playing an NFL playoff game. These are huge projects with enormous experience requirements. I've got a few years experience plus leftover childhood model building skills and just cutting down some refeers to add the truck style refrigerator unit and fuel tank is still a bit of a challenge. I wouldn't attempt something that requires troubleshooting and design work like these fantasy jobs.
This was all covered in the other thread. Starting with a huge project was a bad idea ten days ago. Starting with another huge project is a bad idea today.MR has published a ton of simple kitbashes over the years; things like Eric Boorman's article on kitbashing 40 foot boxcars into 50 foot.Start with something like that.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Would a Walthers Cornerstone kit be a good start? Or still jumping the gun?
I was thinking either the Brick Mission Style Santa Fe Depot or the Valley Citrus Packers...
Hi Steven:
NWP SWPWould a Walthers Cornerstone kit be a good start? Or still jumping the gun? I was thinking either the Brick Mission Style Santa Fe Depot or the Valley Citrus Packers...
Have you built any kits before? If not, then I think you are still trying to be a Master Equestrian before you have even sat on a horse. No insult intended - but you are setting yourself up to be disappointed and frustrated IMHO. I haven't built the Mission style Santa Fe Depot but I can see that it will require some careful assembly to get all the detail pieces installed correctly.
The other problem with building a structure kit is that it won't give you the experience that you will need to do the sort of locomotive kitbashing that you envisage. If you want to be able to cut locomotive and passenger car shells up and then reassemble them then you need to practice cutting straight lines in car bodies, sanding edges square, applying fillers, adding details.... etc. etc...
I would refer you back to the suggestion made to start by moving the cupola on an Athearn BB caboose from one end to the middle of the caboose. Once you have done that, the same caboose could be used to learn how to replace molded in details like grab irons with real metal ones, install real wood walkways, install proper caboose trucks (I can't remember if the BB caboose trucks came with leaf springs or not), maybe blank out some windows, upgrade the brake wheels and stove pipes, upgrade the handrails.....you can go as far as you want. The point being that it will give you a taste of what kitbashing really involves.
I don't know what tools you have already, but if you are going to do any of this stuff you will need a selection of tools. If you let us know exactly what the project is that you want to start with, then we can give you a list of the tools needed to do the work.
Cheers Steven!
Make sure you remember to move the throttle linkage to the other side of the boiler. When rear becomes front, left becomes right.
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
I'm blessed with five grandsons. One was diagnosed with Aspergers some years ago. He is also the one who really loves model trains, even now as a young adult making his way in the world. It still pains me to recall the days of him being bullied when all he desired was what all humans desire, acceptance, patients and respect.
Sincerely and with respect, Peter
When I was young, as in high school, and new to model railroading, I had some pretty lofty 'bashing goals, and jumped in with both feet. I created a lot of model carnage. And in retrospect, even if I had pulled off the mods as planned, (and sometimes I did) they would have been, and were often rather goofy looking to more educated eyes. As in my own, later. I learned "just because I could doesn't always mean I should".
This is only to add experienced emphasis to what the guys are telling you above.
One area where you can believably get away with some radical kitbashing (and imagineering) is in the area of small industrial locomotives. Quite a few geared steam locomotive drive trains, for example, either in 1 or 2 truck configurations , got put to use under diesel or gas powered locomotives with all kinds of odd body and cab configurations. Usually done in the home shops. Lots of pictures on Google. Search "locomotive critters".
I would tend to fear, as eluded to above, that the novelty of a 4-8-8-4 cab forward, after all that work, would wear thin pretty quickly, even to you. But, hey, it's your railroad, as they say.
Perhaps if this satisfies your ambition to modify big steam, SP did make some big articulated rear cab 2-8-8-4s, AC-9, basically cab forwards turned around. These were never released in plastic, only limited brass. So they don't get modeled too often. And I personally think they are among, if not the most beautiful heavy articulateds ever built*. So it would be fairly unusual, yet totally prototypical. Interesting story behind them too, allowing for some plausable imagineering.
Channel that wonderful enthusiasm of yours into projects with staying power. You'll know what I mean later if not sooner. And again, save the big stuff for when you have some practice under your belt. Dan
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Pacific_class_AC-9
Or see the book, Steam's Finest Hour, page 109. (Kalmbach Publishing) I fairly recently picked up a used one up on Amazon, very reasonably priced. Awesome book!
OK, guys, these replies are all getting very circuitous. All of these comments and suggestions have been made many times before, to no avail.
I suggest a different tact. Let's agree with Steven and encourage him to tackle a project that he wants to tackle. I will fire the first salvo.
Steven, by all means, take on this project. Get hold of a Rivarossi Big Boy and a Cab Forward and get to it. I, for one, would love to see the results. Truth be told, it would be a good kitbash. Yous seem to have the smarts and the technical knowledge to do it, so go for it. Report back to us frequently with photos and updates.
I am truly and sincerely looking forward to this project, and I await the first update.
Rich
Alton Junction
OK, got to add my two 2 cent nickel (yes, that is an actual USA coin).............
To the OP,
I've read all of your threads, and its obvious that there are a lot of folks that want to help you. And now that we recognize your personal situation, we want to help you even more!
But that only goes so far. It's time for you to actually do something. Be it a loco kitbash, building a car or structure kit, or starting on a layout, or whatever......
You need to put down the keyboard and pick up a kit or scratch materials and get to work. As Richhotrain said, get with a project and give us updates periodically.
We all would look forward to that, and you will have actually accomplished something in the MR arena.
As the ad said.........JUST DO IT !!!
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
I'll weigh In. I love doing "junkyard specials"/fantasy units... I mean i made a self propelled diesel rail car by slicing a rivorossi E9 nose onto a concor streamlined observation car. A fairly easy kitbash, but it was a pain to make the roofing line up correctly. So I second what Tstage suggested, and start small. I'm 26, I've been modeling sincec I was 10, and hace only been doing the kitbashes with PRESENTABLE results for a couple years or so.
(My Model Railroad, My Rules)
These are the opinions of an under 35 , from the east end of, and modeling, the same section of the Wheeling and Lake Erie railway. As well as a freelanced road (Austinville and Dynamite City railroad).
OK.
I'm still trying to figure out just what is a Cab Forward Big Boy, and why on earth anybody would want one. I've studied steam locos for most of my 72 years and never heard of such a preposterous thing. It's hard enough to do a credible job replicating things that really existed. Are we modelers or cartoonists?
ACY TomI'm still trying to figure out just what is a Cab Forward Big Boy
Russell
Southgate Perhaps if this satisfies your ambition to modify big steam, SP did make some big articulated rear cab 2-8-8-4s, AC-9, basically cab forwards turned around. These were never released in plastic, only limited brass. So they don't get modeled too often. And I personally think they are among, if not the most beautiful heavy articulateds ever built*. So it would be fairly unusual, yet totally prototypical. Interesting story behind them too, allowing for some plausable imagineering. Channel that wonderful enthusiasm of yours into projects with staying power. You'll know what I mean later if not sooner. And again, save the big stuff for when you have some practice under your belt. Dan * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Pacific_class_AC-9 Or see the book, Steam's Finest Hour, page 109. (Kalmbach Publishing) I fairly recently picked up a used one up on Amazon, very reasonably priced. Awesome book!
dknelsonI happen to think a more interesting kitbash if you do have an El Cheapo Big Boy and cab forward (I assume AHM/Rivarossi) and the skills, would be to see how close you could come to a DM&IR Yellowstone, or something sort of like it.
Now THAT sounds interesting.
Mike.
My You Tube
ACY Tom OK. I'm still trying to figure out just what is a Cab Forward Big Boy, and why on earth anybody would want one. I've studied steam locos for most of my 72 years and never heard of such a preposterous thing. It's hard enough to do a credible job replicating things that really existed. Are we modelers or cartoonists? Tom
What's so preposterous about it? If the SP needed any bigger locos, that would have been the next step up, a 4-8-8-4 cab forward. They already went up to 4-8-8-2, what's another 2 wheels on the trailing truck?
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
The internet has become a blessing and a curse. With the endless stream of information available, a lot of people get bogged down with an idea or project for fear of doing something wrong or something that doesn't make sense.
I recall many times myself as a young lad, having a box of left-over / broken engines and trying to cobble something together that would look neat and maybe even run. I didn't have the luxury of the internet to ask the masses if what I wanted to do would make sense .... or if it would even work. If I remember correctly, that wasn't even a concern.
I jumped in full steam ahead fully believing my odd creation would somehow work. For the most part - in most cases they never did pan out as I had envisioned and I don't recall any that actually got to the point of running to any degree.
But .... I learned a lot in the process. How to chop up shells and combine different pieces. How to mount trucks that would actually negotiate a radius tighter than 60 inches. How to configure various drive components. And on and and on ....
If I had been inundated with logic and common sense about some of those projects, I no doubt would not have even attempted any of them.
Turn off the computer and turn on the imagination. Live in your own little world and get creative - who knows what you may come up with, and I guarantee, you WILL learn something.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
Ok I'm going to buy a Walthers building kit and give it a go!
I used to build 1000 piece lego sets in a snap! That was when I was 8 so I can manage building a structure...
Wish me luck!
NWP SWPwould you guys agree that'd be something that would be a good first kitbash?
No. I concur with Tom's evalutation. Start small then work your way to the bigger projects.
My first kit was an N scale box car when I was 8 or so. That was somewhat successful. There was an interviening few years of more important things (cars, girls, larger model trains, USN) that got in the way. My second kit was a box car 5 years ago. The third kit I built (a week after the second) was a Branchline passenger car.
I learned a lot from that Branchline kit. The most important thing I learned was that I didn't know what I was doing.
So I built some athearn BB kits, Accurail kits then proceded to start building structures. Ive recently completed my first bridges, central valley girder bridges.
I too have a locomotive scratchbuild in mind, but I know that my skills are not quite there yet. That hasnt stopped me from obtaining the appropriate brass detail parts, basic metal shapes, appropriate instructions and tooling to procede with the work.
Watch the movie "What about Bob?".....baby steps...
NWP SWPso I thought of taking a Rivarossi El Cheapo Grande Big Boy and Cab Forward and make the two into a 4-8-8-4 Cab Forward then detail and paint the locomotive...
My opinion on this project:
Skip the whole Big Boy and figure out how to mount a 4 wheel trailing truck in place of the two wheel on the Cab Forward. It is doubtful that if SP had made a 4-8-8-4 Cab forward that it would look much different than their existing cab forwards.
Also note.
The 4-8-8-4 Big Boy had a 4 wheel trailing truck to support the weight of the firebox and a 4 wheel leading truck for guiding the locomotive around curves at higher speeds. The Cab Forward has its firebox at the front. The purposes are therefore combined. If you look carefully at the Cab Forward's trailing truck, the only thing it is supporing is a giant deck and the cylinders. Replacing this with 4 wheel truck in both model and prototype would have reduced weight on the drivers, making them more prone to slippage.
Thats not to say don't do it.