As the news of hobby/train stores keep closing their doors, what would it take today to open and run a really succesful shop besides on line sales? I live in an area well endowed with decent shops, but still we have lost a few recently. Probably now the largest shop in the country, MB Klein aka modeltrainstuff.com is only 30 minutes north, but they have recently condensed their retail presence considerably to accomodate more warehouse space for their quite successful on-line/mail order business.
Here are my thoughts as I once owned a shop in the early 70's.
First is a great location which I have found would compensate many times over a large expense..and be able to purchase building or space at a later date. One of the reasons Tommy Gilbert's in Gettysburg, Pa is still doing well after several decades.....He owns the building, besides being great at what he does.
Then really good people skills along with knowing how to advertise and market your wares. I have visited many stores with a counter person giving me the "what are you doing here" stare.
For me a dream store would be and look like this.....At least 2000'square feet, great lighting, ample aisle width, a place to sit, attractive and friendly sales folks, a what is new area in addition to a close out/bargain table or area. Plenty of used trains, of course a wall of brass models and craftsman kits, a consignment area, loads of detail parts and a strong selection of staples such as resins, and paints, etc. Of course would be the latest publications and books. There should be a good operating layout friendly to newbies as to operation and for just introducing the hobby. An accesible bulletin board, a table for show fliers and other forms of local events. A staff who fully understands the meaning of "follow-up" would be nice in addition to being well versed in the hobby. The shop should have hours in keeping with current availble free times for the area.
Clinics should be held on many subjects relating to the hobby, and of course in the evenings or on weekends. A wish list is always nice in addition to be on the store mailing list. Trades should be accepted and often encouraged in addition to a fair lay-away plan. I once had a refreshment table with always a fresh pot of coffee for customers.....but had to stop as the idiots in the county at the time required me then to have a food service license.
Of all of these features and I'm sure many of you can think of more, I'd say the location would be the most important and then some.
Thoughts? Perhaps some may become inspired to open a good shop nearby.
HZ
I'm not convinced on location being far more important than anything else. The two best train shops that I know of within an hour's drive are in a semi-industrial area or in a strip mall in the middle of, well, whatever strip malls are in the middle of.
Most modelers are not needing a walking-traffic location. By that, I mean that they will make an effort to find a good one nearby, and GO there.
There is an exception, though. That would be people who are beginners or who are looking for toy trains for their kids. A well trafficked location would certainly help with THAT demographic.
I think the most important thing for a shop is for an owner who delivers for his customers. I once went to a shop where the counter person said they'd get things. Some they did. Some they didn't bother. The last visit was when I found out that what I ordered was unobtainable, and the owner was telling me right then he could get it. What good is that to me?
My current shop is VERY good at getting things I want. Right up to ordering from a competitor if things "fell through the cracks". That would be taking a loss. Owner did it anyway. So I go back.
My current shop has a big layout where customers are invited to bring trains and run. The shop has also given DCC clinics. The shop has "a guy" who can install sound. And a Thomas Table for little kids.
AND. My current shop, the one that's in the semi-industrial area, manages to get a lot of beginners and toy-train shoppers, somehow. Especially starting now.
Ed
This is based solely on my observations and no real study whatsoever.
.
Model trains take two things... Space and Time. If you do not have both, you are not going to have a layout.
Who has space and time? RETIREES!
Here in Florida we are not losing train stores, in fact we get a couple new ones every few years. Most rececently Metro Trains in Fort Myers and ZitNik Trains in Pinellas Park. They are both doing fine from what I have seen.
They have a customer base made up of plenty of retired folk, and Florida is chock full of that sub-type of the human group.
To start a successful hobby shop today I really feel its success depends on location. Obviously that location should include retired folks, and lots of them.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
7j43kMost modelers are not needing a walking-traffic location. By that, I mean that they will make an effort to find a good one nearby, and GO there.
Oh, absolutely. A Model Train shop is 100% a "destination" store. People leave their houses with an intent to go there specifically.
Best example: Ready-To-Roll Trains in Miami. They are in the most terrible location of any shop I have ever visited. Google Street View their shop for a scare, I am serious!
By location I meant the geographic area, not street address.
SeeYou190 Best example: Ready-To-Roll Trains in Miami. They are in the most terrible location of any shop I have ever visited. Google Street View their shop for a scare, I am serious!
I'm missing the scary part. I do live in Oakland, so maybe I'm seeing things differently.
I DO see plenty of parking, always a plus.
Howard,That would have worked great in the 70,80s and into the 90s but,today without a on line presence you're dead in the water before you open your doors.Even big box stores is turning to on line to support their store sales and to compete with Amazon and e-Bay.
Clinics? Good luck with that..I suspect there would be few attendees due the family,errand or chore excuses many use today for not attending train shows,club meeting or other modeling events.Even retirees uses those excuses.
The good side is it would work with on line sales to back up your store sales and if you cater to R/C and miniature gaming.
Weekly sales and Saturday specials would help draw customers.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
7j43k I'm missing the scary part. I do live in Oakland, so maybe I'm seeing things differently. I DO see plenty of parking, always a plus.
Did you get the correct location?
They only have 3 parking places. After you park you need to walk through those razor-wired gates down an alley to a little room where you need to be buzzed in.
Don't take me wrong here. Ready-To-Roll is a great shop. If you are ever on the Southeast Coast of Florida you need to go. The inside of the store is awesome.
I agree, a strong online presence is essential to surviving in todays hobby scene. But you also need the storefront as a condition to get many of the accounts with suppliers to get the trains. Your website needs to have its inventory in real time and updated in real time so if someone buys in store, its removed from both the online and store inventory, same for an online purchase, this avoids customer issues with product purchased but not in stock. A kind and informed staff/owner. An owner that does not go into tirades about the issues in the industry or bash brands that HE doesn't like. Just because he doesnt like xyz brand, that might be the customers favorite brand. A good positive attitude is essential to keep and retain customers, espically your core base that is local as well as out of towners that are visiting. Location is somewhat import but not an end all/be all. I know several shops in the middle of nowwhere, but they have robust sales due to all of the above items and hosting a great 2 day open house 2 times a year(spring and fall). Its also helpfull to have a selection of guys that repair trains. I myself do this for a shop in Indy. They have a guy for Lionel/American Flyer, someone else handles plastic HO and DCC/Sound installs(other than brass). I handle all brass repair work. That shop also has a sizable used/second hand selection from estates he has purchased. The sales of the second hand items far outpace his sales of new items due to being less expensive. Showing that many new items have hit the point where, atleast locally, modelers will only buy one or two, or maybe none at all and go with an older model. Mike the Aspie
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
Unfortunately, (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it), the future is not in brick and mortor stores, with some exceptions. With an online store your overhead is all in warehousing and website development. Minor compared to the overhead of most storefronts in high traffic areas. And on top of that shipping and handling covers its own cost. People have too much going on today and too many things vying for their attention. And in any business you need to reach the widest audience. A local store is nice, but its always going to more expensive and time consuming and few stores can afford to have a large enough stock to have everything you want. It is only a matter of time before most all stores are online only. Look at any mall today. About the only thing left is clothes, jewelery, and cheap goods kiosks. I havent even seen a bookstore in years.
Howard,
In my view, having managed a hobby shop train department myself, the only future for brick and mortar stores would be:
Way more than 2000 sq ft, more like ten times that.
A good web presence and a store location that is low cost but near large population centers.
Big enough to buy most products direct and thereby have very good pricing.
Yes, knowledgeable people and hobby promotion.
The small shop business model is dead. Why should I pay more to wait for some guy to order what he can't stock because his shop is too small when I can just push a few buttons and have it show up at my door? That is not just about price - it is about service.
You cannot sell what you don't have. There is only one company I will preorder from - because they are small and sell direct - Spring Mills Depot.
I have been having this discussion with "Paul3" and others on here for years about products, pricing, inventory and preorders. Paul is right about one thing, there is too much product for a small shop to stock a representivie selection. All arguments about pricing or preorders are secondary to that fact. Now you have to be BIG - like MB Klein or TrainWorld.
Too much deep discounting and preorders have changed this hobby - not in a good way.
Distributors and small shops are dieing fast. We saw this comming in the 1980's when I worked at Glen Burnie Hobby World. We tried to put together some investors for a "discount superstore hobby shop", never could find the right people.
Howard, how much money do you have? Do you know of any empty grocery stores for sale cheap?
I will put together a management team for you.........
Sheldon
SeeYou190 7j43k I'm missing the scary part. I do live in Oakland, so maybe I'm seeing things differently. I DO see plenty of parking, always a plus. . Did you get the correct location? . They only have 3 parking places. After you park you need to walk through those razor-wired gates down an alley to a little room where you need to be buzzed in.
Yup, that's the one I saw.
Park across the street? Looks like lots of room there.
A web presence is mandatory now. Several LHS's I have visited mention that the on-line business exceeds the walk-in business these days(An Affair with Trains, and Engine House Services).
Of course one will need a large fortune to invest so they can make a small fortune! Myself, I would rather invest in something else, and not make my living selling model trains(I was part owner in two hobby shops in the 80's).
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
7j43kPark across the street? Looks like lots of room there.
Nope. Those are all people's front yards. They don't take too kinmdly to that.
Many small shops are retreating to out of the owners basement/garage and only seen on ebay or at train shows and deal mostly in older models/estates. Of which there is a never ending steam with the older modelers passing on. The small Ma and Pa hobby shop on the street corner are definatly a thing of the past. Even big stores like Sears and Kmart are nearly out of business by the "point and click" convience of Amazon and other online retailers. I suspect "cyper Monday" generates more sales this year in volume than black friday does.
-Jon
Given the woes of brick and mortar stores in all phases of retailing, I think it would be difficult to make a go of a new LHS. There are two LHS that I frequent and both of them are well established (40 to 50 years) with a loyal clientelle. They seem to be doing well but then again, I'm not privy to their bottom line. I think it would be very difficult for a start up these days to stay in the business given that this is a niche hobby, not one with widespread appeal. I don't know how typical I am as a customer but both LHS are almost an hour drive. I became an established customer when I was less than 10 minutes from them. I don't think I would be making that drive if these were new businesses. I just think a start up would have a very difficult time establishing a customer base.
"What would it take to run a successful train store today?"
Deep pockets, clairvoyance, and help from a deity.
Bubbytrains
Here is a LHS about fifteen miles from me. Look at all the products they carry. It is not a train shop. Trains are not primary. A friend of mine is paid to do DCC installs.Doing install is not my interest anymore.
A couple retired guys once in a while tend the model rail road layouts, only for observing. Not for customers to run.
No idea about other hobbies like remote controlled cars and airplanes.
http://www.pvhobbies.com/
A couple freinds fly RC planes but get some stuff there and online.
I have not talked with the owner in sometime so no idea on how much online service he does. He bought the business in the 1990's as I remember stropping in the first time in Northampton, Ma.
Generally someone who has never run a business as no idea the start up requirements for a business. Workers with a knowledge of the many hobbies around are needed. The owner cannot do it all.
There are many hobbies the have nothing to do with trains.Train shops are pretty mucch gone like steam engines.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
A successful LHS in my view has whatever I want at the time of my visit in stock, is close by, has ample parking avalaible, ultra-friendly and knowledgeable staff and, most important, rock-bottom prices.
All of that is a sure recipe for making a small fortune out of a rather big one in very short time!
SeeYou190 7j43k I'm missing the scary part. I do live in Oakland, so maybe I'm seeing things differently. I DO see plenty of parking, always a plus. . Did you get the correct location? . They only have 3 parking places. After you park you need to walk through those razor-wired gates down an alley to a little room where you need to be buzzed in. . . Don't take me wrong here. Ready-To-Roll is a great shop. If you are ever on the Southeast Coast of Florida you need to go. The inside of the store is awesome. . -Kevin .
Luxury, pure luxury. It doesn’t look scary to me. Of course I'm from San Bernardino so people from Compton are afraid of me. LOL. Yes I see some of the houses have bars on the windows but they have nice cars. I don’t see graffiti, crack heads, homeless meth addicts or gang bangers which is what to expect by my local hobby shop.
Here is the front. That trash pile is someone's home. https://www.google.com/maps/@34.1359546,-117.292898,3a,42.1y,216.33h,86.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sg8pFuw0_FC2uqcYCkwC_LQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
Here is the alley to get to the parking lot:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.1354551,-117.2919645,3a,39.7y,272.49h,90.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sn1WdecXJK_BKaBcdE0UeGg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
How do you have a million dollars and a model train shop?Start with two million dollars.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Bayfield Transfer Railway How do you have a million dollars and a model train shop?Start with two million dollars.
Two million is no where near enough.........
When I first saw this thread I was going to post and be a little bit cocky and say a miracle. I want to be more positive but I still kind of feel that way.
Every time I go to the last two hobby stores in my city, I am brushed aside and not getting my questions answered. This is not okay I don't even want to go to either one of these hobby stores again but they are the only two left.
On a past thread I stated how important it is in the resort business how you relate and talk to people. If you opened a hobby store you would have to make each individual feel special (appreciated) In the resort business you have to talk to customers and make them feel at home and make them wish to come back.
That's the same for a hobby store or any business. Everyone wants to be appreciated. Everyone wants to be Remember by name. Everyone wants to come back if you give them a reason to do that. This is what today's businesses are lacking.
Sad state of affairs in customer relations today
Track Fiddler
PS I just had to add this. The last two times I went to the hobby store in St Paul. I paid too much for two locomotives. I could have paid half the price on the Internet. I bought them there and paid full price because I knew where to go if I have a problem with anything.
Comments about train shops surving and still doing business in not so great areas works for folks who know about them and will risk a trip to a lousy area of town to purchase what they are looking for. Any retail business needs walk-in traffic, and a decent location in a mall or strip center is a must if new business is wanted.
My shop was is such a center (1973-1975) and our front windows with built up everythings and working model railroad brought in many if not just to see the displays. Several were hooked, and became regulars. Of course this was before the net, but we still had to deal with discounter/mail order ads in magazines as serious competition. Our used train department with trade-ins allowed countered the discounters quite well, and brought in many from way out of town. It was here that I formulated the Great Scale Model Train Show aka Timonium as used and out-of production trains became king and eventualy took over most of the shop.
Today? I just do not know as so much has changed, but still a great location is paramount. That will never change.
Howard ZaneOur used train department with trade-ins allowed countered the discounters quite well, and brought in many from way out of town.
Absolutely..I picked up a used Walthers SW1 for $18.00 at the Berea (Ohio) show and it was like new. Guessing I would say 75% of my cars and locomotives was bought used.
When I go to Milwaukee's Trainfest, one vendor who always seems to have plenty of customers is Scenic Express. They offer a variety of scenery materials and supplies, and are not afraid to charge for them.
This suggests to me that most hobby shops AND the on-line vendors are not coming anywhere near exhausting the market for scenery materials. I am not saying that a LHS could make a go of it only with scenery stuff but I do think a larger presence for scenery materials could be a difference maker -- scenery stuff tends not to be scale specific, with some exceptions, it is not subject to the limited run/advance order syndrome, and a lot of inventory can be displayed in a fairly compact area.
I vividly remember the last day in business of one of my favorite hobby shops in the Milwaukee area, a shop run by a bunch of very good modelers and -- to be frank -- idealists. They even called the place "Dreamers." On that last day when everything was 70% and more off, there were still tons of high level detail parts, something they prided themselves on, and decals, and Floquil paints, and so on.
The take-away for me was that one way to go broke is to focus on the really serious modelers because unless you have "everything," to them you have "nothing."
Dave Nelson
The owner needs to do much of the work and have as few employees as possible. Contributing to the success in measureable ways is important. I see too many absentee owners in small businesses, where their contributions aren't exactly measurable.
- Douglas
A few thoughts:
1) You would need an owner who has no aspirations of getting rich. I don't think that would happen in this market.
2) Brick and mortar, and even big box stores, are on the decline, everywhere, and in nearly all categories. I don't see a hobby shop faring mych better.
That said, I think the best shot would have to consider location. There needs to be a base of local modelers. And there need to be another base of modelers within an hour and a half drive. Location should be such that if people are making a day trip, there need to be other things to do in the area to make the trip enticing.
Online presence is a must. Sure, there are still folks who shy away from the internet - but just look how popular forums like this and facebook groups are. Those folks like to spend time scrolling around on their phones, and having a good online presence is essential.
Personally - I think the store needs to be extremely welcoming to beginners. You want those new to the hobby to stop in your store for help or bargains rather than feel for themselves online. This probably means having some kind of service department, sponsoring clinics, and a discount or bargain table. My feeling is that people new to the hobby could (at least for awhile) prefer to head to a store rather than feel overwhelmed by ebay and the snide comments on these message boards (how many times does a kid or newbie post something here only to get a "did you run a search" or "that loco is garbage" response)
- Kevin
Check out my shapeways creations! HOn3 and railroad items for 3D printing:
https://www.shapeways.com/shops/kevin-s-model-train-detail-parts
I had to forgot to mention in opening post............a very good service dept. which can repair items in any scale and a custom dept that can do DCC installations and painting/detailing of brass, plastic, and die-cast. I also use to offer appraising for insurance quotes, divorce, and other forms of family planning. Note: if I was hired to appraise models, I would never offer a bid, but give client a choice.....appraisal or price quote.