I'm not suggesting that Rich shouldn't use a spray can if he's competent doing so and is able to find the suitable colour, but simply offering a few reasons why an airbrush can be a better solution.
richhotrainI guess that I am a wimp when it comes to the idea of an airbrush, but here is my dilemma. I have no experience with an airbrush....
I did suggest a simple way to gain that experience, using cardboard as the subject.
richhotrain...I only need to paint one loco...
True, but if you learn to use an airbrush, it's a skill you'll have when you need to do only one of something else, too!
richhotrain...I get no second chance if I screw it up....
Why? Can't you strip-off the screwed-up paint job and try again? What will you do if your spray-can effort goes awry?
richhotrain...It also seems to me that the post-painting cleanup must be a messy chore, cleaning out that airbrush and disposing of the unused paint....
For me, the clean-up goes like this: I've finished painting, so I take the siphon cap off the paint bottle to which it was last attached, and replace the original cap on that bottle. I next take the colour cup (many painters use it for painting, but that's one reason why their clean-up procedure becomes more tedious and needs to be done every time they change colours during an extended painting session) and fill that cup with lacquer thinner. It's then attached to the airbrush and some or all of the thinner is shot through the tube of the siphon cap, the inside of the cap, and the outside of the syphon tube. I then dip a pipe cleaner in lacquer thinner and run it through the siphon tube and use a rag to wipe off the inside of the cap and the outside of the siphon tube and cap.The colour cup is then re-filled with lacquer thinner, and the air cap, air cap body, and tip are removed from the airbrush and placed into the colour cup. Next, the handle is removed from the shell, and the locknut removed from the needle adjusting sleeve. The needle is then pulled from the front of the airbrush's shell - removing it from the front keeps any paint remaining there in that area. Removing the needle from the rear of the brush may drag paint into areas where it wouldn't normally be found, necessitating more cleaning.I then wrap the rag around a finger, dip it into the surface of the thinner in the colour cup, and wipe the needle clean with the moistened portion of the rag - no need to dry it.The needle adjusting sleeve is then unscrewed from the shell, and the spring and rocker assembly withdrawn. I re-wet the pipe cleaner, and run it through the needle support - there shouldn't be any paint there, but it takes only a second or two to make sure. The same pipe cleaner is then passed through, from the rear, the needle passage within the shell and then, in-turn, through the paint supply passage and out through the front of the shell.I then use either the needle or the reamer to lift the individual parts out of the colour cup, drying them using the rag (the tip of the pipe cleaner can be used to dry the interior of the tip).The cleaning is done... re-assemble the airbrush, put stuff back where it belongs...you're done. With a little practice, this should take a couple of minutes at most - you might think this excessive for painting one colour on one item, but the procedure is the same after painting several dozen items, perhaps in several dozen different colours - one two-minute clean-up.
Do not throw out any left-over paint. Recap the bottle for future use or combine it with similar remnants from other jobs to create different useable colours or a colour suitable for weathering - for the latter, any shade of brownish, greyish, greenish, blackish...you get the idea...will work. Add the appropriate thinner to the mix so that it's much more severely thinned than paint which you'd use for actual painting. It can be 95% thinner, if you wish. When applied, it will simply tone-down lettering and contrast between colours, making the object look not-new. For weathering colours more noticeable, like would be needed to represent wheel spray on the ends of cars, f'rinstance, the paint doesn't need such severe thinning, but should still be thinner than what you'd use for a regular paint job.
richhotrain...It seems like a lot of effort for one little locomotive. Is the airbrush really the only way to go?...
If you can find the needed colour in a spray can, of course not! However, if you take a little time to learn the use of your airbrush, I think that you might come to the conclusion that the airbrush is the better way, even for one item in one colour.
Doughless...You gotta have really bad aim or a heavy finger to get any drips....
For me, the problem is the finger pressure needed for the button on a spray can...there's no nuances to it - it's on or off, nowhere in between. I'm sure that regular users can get decent results, but I could never get it right, even before I acquired an airbrush. The airbrush allows for varied pressure on the finger lever to regulate airflow, and also allows the user to regulate the amount of paint supplied. The latter is determined by how-far back the lever is pulled, and most double action airbrushes have a line adjustment assembly that allows the user to pre-set that amount, if so desired.
Doughless...Do you have a $2 tyco car somewhere that you can practice with?
Don't waste a perfectly good model for practice work - if you screw it up, you'll get discouraged and give-up. Instead, learn your techniques on something that's truly disposable, like the cardboard which I suggested. Then, when you're more confident in your abilities, try it on that Tyco car...you may find that it's a much nicer car than you'd realised.
Here's one of my less-than-two-dollars Tyco cars...
Wayne
tstage I would, Rich. As suggested, remove/separate all of the larger items (e.g. cab, shell, walkway, handrails, etc. and paint them all separately. I would also paint the interiors with at least one coat of the same color (or dark color) so that headlights don't bleed through the shell. Actually, you could probably just brush coat that to maintain evenness in the harder-to-spray areas. Tom
I would, Rich. As suggested, remove/separate all of the larger items (e.g. cab, shell, walkway, handrails, etc. and paint them all separately. I would also paint the interiors with at least one coat of the same color (or dark color) so that headlights don't bleed through the shell. Actually, you could probably just brush coat that to maintain evenness in the harder-to-spray areas.
Tom
Rich
Alton Junction
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Doughless If you paint the big parts separately and use a bent coat hanger to hold the parts and rotate them 360 degrees sphericaly, there aren't too many places that wont get hit with paint, if any.
If you paint the big parts separately and use a bent coat hanger to hold the parts and rotate them 360 degrees sphericaly, there aren't too many places that wont get hit with paint, if any.
Do you attempt to spray the entire shell in one try, top, sides, front and rear?
Thanks Randy and Tom for those comments and suggestions. I need to look at both Scalecoat II and Tamiya.
A thin wash if india ink or water based dark green will settle into any places that aren't perfect.
You gotta have really bad aim or a heavy finger to get any drips.
Do you have a $2 tyco car somewhere that you can practice with?
- Douglas
And, again, some spray cans/paints are better than others. I used Tamiya Bare-Metal Silver (AS-21) to paint a Walthers Miss Bettie's Diner. The Tamiya paints tend to be thinner and their nozzles emit a very even spray. The result was a very smooth coat over the entire structure and I couldn't be happier with the results.
If you want to stick with a spray can for this project, Rich, and can find a satisfactory match for C&NW green then I would go with Tamiya. The thinness of the Tamiya paints will help preserve any fine details on your Atlas RS-1 shell.
Wayne, I'd give a spary can a try again now that you have developed the proper techniques with an airbrush. The basic "fill in the area" without any other effects involves a lot of the same coordination of movement to start and stop the spray as sweeping past the surface. Yes, you can do MORE with an airbrush because it's NOT just on/off, you have much more control over the air/paint flow as well as the ability to adjust the tip to control the spray pattern. But since the object here is to fill the whole model with even coats of the same color, a spray can should be fine.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Keep it up, Frankie. You don't live that far from me.
I may just stop over with loco shell in one hand and a six pack in the other.
I mean, how long could it take for you to airspray one little loco for lil' ol' me?
Probably faster than it would take for the two of us to drink that six pack.
Richie
Richie My Friend.....You are so indecisive.....The time spent on this thread, You could have had the shell painted already. I know I would have...LOL.
I won't say any more...other than using an air brush is not all that difficult to learn. Once You do, You will see that there is no comparison to a rattle can..period. No fumes floating around with overspray, due to the propellant, no cloudy mists of paint anywhere....the paint goes on the model....Not in the air you're breathing.
Brush paint? Red Sable/Sable Artist flat brush 1/4''/1/2''....paint up/down, not side to side...ligthtly thin paint out of container...no more than two strokes.
Good Luck on Your decision!
Frank
Wayne, you got me thinking about another angle with your latest post. I hear you with the argument in favor of an airbrush over a rattle can of spray. But, what about simply brushing on the paint with a high quality paint brush. Is that a realistic possibility? I paint all of my structures by hand, and I have had good success. To my eye, I don't see any brush marks or other flaws.
I guess that I am a wimp when it comes to the idea of an airbrush, but here is my dilemma. I have no experience with an airbrush. I only need to paint one loco. I get no second chance if I screw it up.
It also seems to me that the post-painting cleanup must be a messy chore, cleaning out that airbrush and disposing of the unused paint. It seems like a lot of effort for one little locomotive.
Is the airbrush really the only way to go?
richhotrain...I have now moved from restrained enthusiasm to outright intimidation....
No need to feel intimidated, Rich. I can very seldom get good results with a spray can, regardless of what I'm painting...models, lawn furniture, or car parts.Before I bought an airbrush, I did most of my model painting with a brush, and got better results than the few times that I tried spray cans.
When I got the airbrush, I was more-or-less talked into it by a hobbyshop owner for whom I was doing custom painting. The paint jobs were multi-colour diesels with painted-on lettering (no correct decals available at that time). "It'll be a lot faster than a brush.", he said.
Well, the actual painting was faster, but it required a lot more masking than was required for brush painting.I got a couple of empty cardboard boxes at the supermarket, broke them down into flat sections and practiced the airbrushing exercises described in the booklet which came with my Paasche VL, using the blank interior sides of the cardboard as my "canvas". Once you get the "feel" of it, it becomes second nature.
While there are still things which need to be painted with a brush, I won't hesitate to use the airbrush for even a single small item like a vehicle for the layout...and my paint shop is in my garage, 100' behind the house, in a small room that needs to be heated prior to painting during the winter months. In fact, I need to either heat the room for several hours in order for the compressor's oil to thin enough that it won't stall the motor, or store the compressor in my basement, under the layout, then lug all 85lbs. of it out to the garage, often through the snow. I consider the effort worthwhile for the results I get. I must admit, though, that most painting sessions include lots of models...5 or 6 torn-down brass locomotives or a few dozen freight cars or some structures or vehicles.If you get good results with a spray can, then there's no reason to consider an airbrush or to be anxious about it.
I will mention, though, that an airbrush opens your colour choices very widely, as you can mix any colour or shade of colour to suit your needs, often from a reasonably manageable selection of paint - much fewer bottles than the number of spray cans that still wouldn't let you alter the shade or colour coming out of the nozzle. It would also allow you to spray flat or gloss finishes and semi-gloss finishes in varying degrees of shininess from only two bottles.Wanna do some light weathering? Take a couple of colours that you think might be suitable, dump a bit of each in a clean bottle (as you use-up a bottle of paint, clean it thoroughly and you'll have a container suitable for mixing custom colours), then fill the bottle with thinner. When you apply that with an airbrush, it can be done so lightly that it won't itself be apparent, but will alter the appearance of the car or loco on which it's applied from something right out of the paint shop to something that's been in service for a while. You can age it further with subsequent applications of the same colour or other well-thinned colours.If you paint, f'rinstance, a couple of orange refrigerator cars, then a few oxide red boxcars, and blue vehicle, and have a little of those already-thinned colours left over, dump them together into another clean bottle, add more thinner, and you've got another weathering colour. No paint need go to waste, nor languish in a spray can for a year, and not be accessible when you next need to use it because the nozzle is plugged.
A thorough cleaning of my VL takes only a couple of minutes, and I seldom clean it at all between colour changes during a painting session, unless I'm also changing paint types, such as acrylic to lacquer-based.
If 2 year old me working the throttle on a simple HO loop under the tree counts as being in the hobby, I've been doing this for nearly 50 years now, and I have yet to use an airbrush. I have one, and a compressor, just haven't set it up and tried it out yet. As for weathering, the only weathering I do is painting the trucks of all my rolling stock grimy black to kill the shine. I do paint the wheel faces now, and even do the couplers. Oh and I put a little oily black inside the stack opening on a couple of my locos.
I have been in the hobby for 14 years, and I am an expert at everything (LOL) ......................except airbrushing and weathering.
richhotrain What is your goal? As-built new from factory finish or will it be weathered? I plead the 5th. LOL Just saying that because I receive well justified criticism for not weathering my locos and rolling stock. Great info here, Doughless. Rich
What is your goal? As-built new from factory finish or will it be weathered?
I plead the 5th. LOL Just saying that because I receive well justified criticism for not weathering my locos and rolling stock.
Great info here, Doughless.
I think weathering stuff is one of the most fun parts of the hobby. Really, its not that hard and if you use cheap acrylic tube paints from walmart, you can wipe it off with a toothbrush and soapy water. (and have some discolored residue settle into the creases, which is a simple way of minor weathering.)
Doughless richhotrain SeeYou190 Doughless Its not that complicated.. I agree with Doughless. Since you are only painting one model, and it is a single color paint scheme, I do not see anything wrong with using a spray can. I guess if worse comes to worse, I can always remove the paint and start all over. Rich Not really. Rattle can paint is hard to remove. It takes a toothbrush and mineral spirits and needs to be removed wet. But its still not that complicated. The Atlas RS1 shell comes apart into big pieces (not sure about the new sound versions). Body, cab, sill, and handrails. Its pretty easy just to shoot the parts with a can. What is your goal? As-built new from factory finish or will it be weathered?
richhotrain SeeYou190 Doughless Its not that complicated.. I agree with Doughless. Since you are only painting one model, and it is a single color paint scheme, I do not see anything wrong with using a spray can. I guess if worse comes to worse, I can always remove the paint and start all over. Rich
SeeYou190 Doughless Its not that complicated.. I agree with Doughless. Since you are only painting one model, and it is a single color paint scheme, I do not see anything wrong with using a spray can.
Doughless Its not that complicated..
I agree with Doughless. Since you are only painting one model, and it is a single color paint scheme, I do not see anything wrong with using a spray can.
I guess if worse comes to worse, I can always remove the paint and start all over.
Not really. Rattle can paint is hard to remove. It takes a toothbrush and mineral spirits and needs to be removed wet. But its still not that complicated.
The Atlas RS1 shell comes apart into big pieces (not sure about the new sound versions). Body, cab, sill, and handrails. Its pretty easy just to shoot the parts with a can.
What is your goal? As-built new from factory finish or will it be weathered? My experience says that railroad equipment tends to get dirt gathered in the creases, so any part of the loco that's thinly covered with paint can be weathered, and I'd bet those places will be the same as where the crud builds up on the prototype. Stairs for example.
Also, handrails are made of delrin. You need to use Auto Bumper Primer, aka, Adhesion Promoter. It comes in a rattle can at places like Autozone. Shoot the handrails on all sides with the primer and let it dry for about an hour. Any unprimed handrails will eventually see the paint flake off.
One other thing. Railroad equipment never weathers consistently. It tends to weather unevenly. There may be patches where the paint is nearly worn off, and others where the paint is still shiny, so unless you're painting a loco as if it just left the paint shop, perfection is not really the goal. Some patchiness is good, IMO.
As far as weathering: I weather exclusively with cheap acrylic paints using the dry brush method and very little paint. I use alcohol to wash the weathering if I applied it too thickly. Again, the thinned paint will tend to run to the crevices where the base coat might be thin. Like an india ink wash.
And I weather using a gray to brown mix, including the base coat in places. Oftentimes, people will spray a gray brown mix onto the lower half of a loco and it will look just like that, a thin layer of gray brown paint sprayed on. All you need to do is discolor the base coat to the gray or brown side, heavy and light, and apply it dry brush style. The discoloration mimicks the scale of weathering, where much of the base coat shows through the mud spray on the prototype. I use a pallet and mix the colors as I go, sometimes even on the loco as I dab....ala Bob Ross...adding a bit more brown, gray, orange, and in your case dark green in different places. Black or white on the pallet is used for darkening and lightening. After I dab along the bottom of the loco and the roofs, it tends to dull the glossy finish to where I dont need to dullcoat...again....patchy finishes. Patchiness. Not a uniform spray.
Cheap acrylic paints WILL easily wipe off dried rattle can paint, so if you mess up the weathering you can start over.
I haven't done any locomotives, but I've rattlecanned all my trucks and gotten full coverage in the crevices without glopping on the paint elsewhere. Also rattlecanned the hinge hardware for all my kitchen cabinets because nothing available matched the new color of the cabinet faces - that was a lot of small pieces to lay out and spray. The start spraying before you get to the surface and keep spraying until past technique is long ingrained in me. So is changing up angles while maintaining the same distance from the surface being painted. Enough that I was annoyed and just went inside when my GF was spray painting something using the old point somewher at the object and press the nozzle technique. No idea how she avoided runs on that one, but she did manage to spray well past the large piece of cardboard and there is no a 2 corner outline on the driveway that is slowly fading away. I just never saw anyone use a rattlecan that way. I've just always learned by watching people do it the right way, and it's always worked for me, be it plastic models, model roackets, or model trains.
I have like a half dozen undec Atlas Classic RS3's to do, and I have some cans of Scalecoat II but I just never got around to it, there are details to be added to each one prior to painting. But since it's a single colort scheme, I figured there would be no issues using the rattlecans. Those models come apart precisely where there is a color change - the walkway and frame I need to paint black, the rest is all Pullman green. No masking needed.
DoughlessIts not that complicated.
.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
I only use rattle cans. A coat hanger and a sunny day is all that's needed. Its not that complicated.
Yeah, it sounds like an airbrush is the way to go.
I found even a cheap airbrush was far better than a rattle can, but quickly found I needed a better source of compressed air than the same style of can as a source of pressurized air. It had a nasty habit of cooling down and losing pressure at just the wrong moment. A spare tire proved far more satisfactory, with no sudden pressure drops. Easy enough to schedule a break as required when the pressure range eventually dropped below acceptable range. An air compressor is certainly better, but probably not cost-justified for preliminary experiments.
Rich,
Just an opinion...Buy an airbrush for this. Acrylics especially, go on very thick. Rattle cans throw too much paint out at once and control is not that great. It is very easy to get too much paint on the model.
I know lots of people who paint their own locos (Including myself) None of them use rattle cans. You can also use the air brush for weathering and other hobby stuff.
My two cents,
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
richhotrain Wayne, thanks for all of your thoughts and suggestions. I have now moved from restrained enthusiasm to outright intimidation. I suppose that the best course of action is to buyer a sprayer and to set up a spray booth. But, for one loco shell? The only reason that I bought the undecorated model is because the Chicago & Western Indiana (C&WI) locomotive is a rare bird in HO scale. To my knowledge, only Atlas made it, and it was only available in one limited run. My other alternative is to find an experienced model railroader with the proper tools of the trade to spray paint the loco for me. The good news is that it only need be painted in CNW Green. That is the only color on the loco. It also has Dulux Gold striping, but I can do that myself with decals. Rich
Wayne, thanks for all of your thoughts and suggestions.
I have now moved from restrained enthusiasm to outright intimidation.
I suppose that the best course of action is to buyer a sprayer and to set up a spray booth. But, for one loco shell?
The only reason that I bought the undecorated model is because the Chicago & Western Indiana (C&WI) locomotive is a rare bird in HO scale. To my knowledge, only Atlas made it, and it was only available in one limited run.
My other alternative is to find an experienced model railroader with the proper tools of the trade to spray paint the loco for me. The good news is that it only need be painted in CNW Green. That is the only color on the loco. It also has Dulux Gold striping, but I can do that myself with decals.
Rich, buy an airbrush, they are not that expensive and equally as useful for structures, etc.
Follow Wayne's advice, mine is exactly the same, I always use Scalecoat, it is the best thing out there.
I would never paint rolling stock with a rattle can, or acrylics, but that's just me, I'm old fashioned and taught by Dr. Logan Holtgrewe at the Severna Park Club.
You never know, you may become a kit builder.....
Sheldon
I've never had much success using spray cans for painting, so I won't give any advice on that, other than to suggest a thorough shaking of the can - not 15 or 20 seconds or a minute, but maybe at least two full minutes. You don't know how long that can's been sitting in a warehouse or on the dealer's shelf. Ensuring that the paint is thoroughly mixed is a step in your favour.Definitely wash the model before painting, using warm (towards hot, but not hot) water and use a dish detergent that doesn't include a hand softener or skin conditioner. Rinse thoroughly and let air dry, and only handle after that with either clean hands or while wearing gloves (nitrile gloves work well and withstand, to some degree, even solvents like lacquer thinner).
Doughless...Also, remove the cab from the body as well as the sill and paint them separately. Don't paint the shell whole. The Atlas classic is a multiple part shell, so it makes it nice for painting....
This is good advice, even if all of the parts will be the same colour. This makes it easier to get uniform coverage without over-applying paint to adjacent areas.
Doughless...One thing about painting with rattle cans is that you can miss the creases and crevasses where surfaces meet. You may never truely reach it with a rattle can and if you try to keep hitting it with paint you'll probably just build up the paint thick all around it while still missing the target, if you follow that. Stairs can be a tricky place since there are multiple surfaces and angles that come together...
This is a situation where an airbrush can really outshine a spray can, as a simple reduction in air pressure can make those blind corners accessible to the paint, without excessive build-up to the surrounding areas.
I normally prime stuff before painting regardless of the type of paint, but that's mainly because most things that I'm painting are composed of various materials in various colours - the primer simply makes them all appear identical to the finish paint.Pay attention to the directions on the can regarding the distance from which to spray, then test that on something not needed, like a piece of cardboard. If the coverage is too heavy, increase the distance - multiple light applications are preferable to one or two heavy ones. If you find a brand and type of paint which suits your purposes and from which you get good results, stick with it. Different brands may require different techniques.I'm currently painting a bunch of locomotives, some brass and some plastic. One of the plastic ones needs a partial re-painting to match an existing colour, and the original was done with a mixed Pollyscale colour, which I still had on-hand, so the re-painting was done with that colour.Other plastic ones and the brass ones (some painted, some not yet painted) were all painted using Scalecoat I. Applied with an airbrush (and thinned with lacquer thinner) it's perfectly safe to use on plastic, and also requires no primer, even on disimilar materials as mentioned above. I probably would opt for a primer if I were using white or yellow as the finished colour, though - maybe unnecessary, but out of habit, I suppose.Scalecoat II is composed of pretty-much the same ingredients as Scalecoat I, but in different proportions. Out of a spray can, I'd suggest sticking with Scalecoat II on plastic.
Whatever the brand of paint, don't rush the drying time: dry to the touch may feel dry, but it's definitely not fully-cured (hardened). If you're taking the time to do this kind of work, don't try to rush it.
If you're spraying (spray can or airbrush) any kind of paint, good ventilation (not wind) is necessary and wear breathing protection. For acrylics and other water-based paints, a dust mask may be sufficient, but for anything containing a solvent other than water (lacquer thinner, acetone, MEK, alcohol, etc.) I highly recommend a two-stage respirator. These remove the particles of paint, and also the fumes generated by the spraying, from the air you're breathing as you paint. I paint (airbrush) in a small room (less than 4'x8') in my garage. I have a spray booth vented to the outdoors and an adjustable intake for fresh air to make-up that expelled by the exhaust fan. Even with that air movement, the fumes could become overwhelming without a respirator - why take a chance without one?
Good luck with your painting, Rich, and don't forget to show us some pictures, too.
mobilman44, thanks for that advice. Good info.
mobilman44The trick is, start the spray before you hit the model, and end the spray after you have gone past the model. This will give you equal coverage over the entire length of the model.
Fascinating.
When I was being taught to use an airbrush I was told to use this technique, but was never explained why.
I always assumed it was because the airbrush was more prone to splatter at the beginning of the spray and you wanted that away from the model.
Now I know better. That makes sense.
There is one piece of spraying advice I have not seen in the preceeding - so maybe its an assumption and everyone knows it. If not.........
When you spray an item, we tend to rightfully go from left to right to left, etc.
The trick is, start the spray before you hit the model, and end the spray after you have gone past the model. This will give you equal coverage over the entire length of the model.
Beginners often start the spray on the model, go to the other end and reverse and so on. This gives "double coats" to the ends of the model, and single coats to the middle.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central