ROBERT PETRICK BMMECNYC I think we are missing the point . . . As to the candy and pickle factory, where do the employees park? Where is the loading dock for trucks to take the finished products to the local 5 and 10? This touches one of my partucular observations. Many layouts don't seem to provide accommodations for the tiny humans that inhabit our miniature worlds. The biggest and most noticeable feature of any given large factory or industry is the employee parking lot for the hundreds of shift workers inside and the network of streets and highways connecting to the rest of the world. Nobody (well, almost nobody) includes such stuff. My new layout will feature these things, up to and including the drive thru lane at the local prompt service restaurant. Wasted space, I know. But important to me. Robert
BMMECNYC I think we are missing the point . . . As to the candy and pickle factory, where do the employees park? Where is the loading dock for trucks to take the finished products to the local 5 and 10?
I think we are missing the point . . .
As to the candy and pickle factory, where do the employees park? Where is the loading dock for trucks to take the finished products to the local 5 and 10?
This touches one of my partucular observations. Many layouts don't seem to provide accommodations for the tiny humans that inhabit our miniature worlds. The biggest and most noticeable feature of any given large factory or industry is the employee parking lot for the hundreds of shift workers inside and the network of streets and highways connecting to the rest of the world. Nobody (well, almost nobody) includes such stuff. My new layout will feature these things, up to and including the drive thru lane at the local prompt service restaurant. Wasted space, I know. But important to me.
Robert
Being an architectural designer, I too an bothered by stuff like that just could not work. Sometimes it is plausable that such things are on the unseen side of the building - but sometimes they need to be modeled.
Sheldon
IRONROOSTERI'll admit that I hadn't thought of a haunted house. But now that Neil brings it up, I think I'll include one.
Model Power makes a haunted house complete with a ghost in the window..
https://www.walthers.com/haunted-house-kit
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
ATLANTIC CENTRALBeing an architectural designer, I too an bothered by stuff like that just could not work. Sometimes it is plausable that such things are on the unseen side of the building - but sometimes they need to be modeled. Sheldon
IMHO even a hint of a employee parking lot is better then nothing..Why not add a trailer drop lot to your biggest industry? Again all that is need is a hint not the complete lot since that may require 10 or more trailers instead of (say) six which works out to three in each row which suggests a larger lot...
Even a guard rail beside a building and one car positioned as if parked could give the impression of that space and function. It needn't be most of, or all of, a parking lot. Seems to me we just need some triggers here and there, something where the viewer remarks on it and exclaims that it's a nice and realistic feature. I notice Lance is good with loading docks and things that make his layouts look like we're walking along the adjacent tracks on a Sunday morning, something I would probably do.
BRAKIE IRONROOSTER I'll admit that I hadn't thought of a haunted house. But now that Neil brings it up, I think I'll include one. Model Power makes a haunted house complete with a ghost in the window.. https://www.walthers.com/haunted-house-kit
IRONROOSTER I'll admit that I hadn't thought of a haunted house. But now that Neil brings it up, I think I'll include one.
Hmm, that's a newer one, doesn't appear to be so obviously based off of old tooling that's been through 4 or 5 owners. The classic one that appears on everyone's layout is different though - I think maybe the one originally from Alexander is the one I'm thinking of. Someone also did the Bates house from Psycho, but that's a more modern plastic kit.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
mlehman I don't think Neil and Lance's point was to argue that the examples given couldn't happen. Instead, they argued that such examples are often over-represnted in what is modeled.
I don't think Neil and Lance's point was to argue that the examples given couldn't happen. Instead, they argued that such examples are often over-represnted in what is modeled.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I live in a "Victorian" house who's property once backed up to the now gone Maryland and Pennsylvania Railroad. The 1914 Ma & Pa station still stands a block away (it is a model train store, at least for awhile longer, the owner is retiring), and our little village of Forest Hill which dates to 1859 is full of Victorian houses like mine
I live in a "Victorian" house who's property once backed up to the now gone Maryland and Pennsylvania Railroad. The 1914 Ma & Pa station still stands a block away (it is a model train store, at least for awhile longer, the owner is retiring), and our little village of Forest Hill which dates to 1859 is full of Victorian houses like mine
Sheldon - there used to be a small narrow gauge loco at the corner near the hobby shop. I've wracked my brain searching for anything on it including any pics or a railroad it was part of. Any ideas?
I live just inside of Baltimore County not far.
Mike Habersack http://rail. habersack. com
Maryland - the land of pleasant living...
Mike in Kingsville ATLANTIC CENTRAL I live in a "Victorian" house who's property once backed up to the now gone Maryland and Pennsylvania Railroad. The 1914 Ma & Pa station still stands a block away (it is a model train store, at least for awhile longer, the owner is retiring), and our little village of Forest Hill which dates to 1859 is full of Victorian houses like mine Sheldon - there used to be a small narrow gauge loco at the corner near the hobby shop. I've wracked my brain searching for anything on it including any pics or a railroad it was part of. Any ideas? I live just inside of Baltimore County not far.
Mike, I know Kingsville very well.
Can't say I know anything about a narrow gauge loco at the station in Forest Hill, that would have been before my time. But, prior to 1901, what became the Ma & Pa was a series of 3' gauge lines, eventually merged and converted to standard gauge to form the Ma & Pa. So there is a 3' gauge history.
The various lines went through a series of bankrupties and takeovers. The southern portion from Baltimore to Delta was known as the Baltimore and Lehigh Railway right before the merger with the York Southern RR to form the Ma & Pa in 1901, making the round about route from Baltimore to York via Bel Air all one line, now standard gauge.
The whole history of the line is well described by George Hilton in his book "The Ma & Pa A History of the Maryland and Pennsylvania Railroad".
The line operated with reasonable success until the early 50's, running steam until 1956, but the line was abandoned in 1959.
Many remnants of the right of way remain if you know where to look.
One of these days, I will build the pickle vats to give my pickle cars somewhere to go. I'm not building a factory, just the vats. I just think pickle cars are interesting pieces of rolling stock, and they have nostalgia value because Athearn was making them when I was a teenager.
Lance Mindheim's minimalist approach works for modern-era Florida. On the other hand, George Selios has created a true masterpiece with the Franklin and South Manchester, every inch of which has very detailed scenery. My own preferences run more in that direction.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
With the types of layouts that Mindheim builds, modern urban switching layouts served by a class 1 carrier, if those industrial parks were even evolutions of a century old rail line, any residential properties would have been razed and converted to commercial properties long ago. So, yes, plunking a Victorian mansion next to a modern fish warehouse that's being switched by the NS or CSX would challenge realism.
Can't speak to the combination of a pickle factory next to a candy factory, but I assume stately victorian houses would be near the tracks back in the day for a variety of reasons already mentioned.
- Douglas
MisterBeasleyLance Mindheim's minimalist approach works for modern-era Florida.
Mr.B,Lance's approach works for any industrialized area not just Florida and by all definitions is far from a minimalist approach since its a industrial area and therefore doesn't have your normal every day layout scenery like Selios.
The beauty of any size ISL is its simplicity in the buildings and scenery. In fact a room size ISL can be built for a fraction of the cost of a full blown room size layout.
Again it all gets back to era and local modeled, interests, historic perspective, etc. What is correct for one place and time may be completely out of character for another place and time.
Since he has been brought up, George Selios is a craftsman and artist of the highest order, but I do not share his "vision" of modeling. The depression was just not as "depressing" as his modeling.....just my view.
My experiance, and the historic photo references, suggest that in nearly every time in history you can find old worn out things, new shinny things, and things in between.
The world did not just fall apart in ten minutes after Oct 29, 1929. It took years, and the added effects of the dust bowl, to bring the economy completely to its knees, and by that time, measures were being taken - new highways, dams, roads, schools, government buildings, interesting enough all brand new........
Some businesses did OK, others not so much. Some people could still afford a new car or paint for their house, some not........
Not interested in modeling too much of the negitive in life......
But am interested in modeling both the industries, and the row of Victorian houses......on different areas of the layout....as they might have been in 1954.
ATLANTIC CENTRALAgain it all gets back to era and local modeled, interests, historic perspective, etc. What is correct for one place and time may be completely out of character for another place and time.
Absolutely..The industries would be of a different breed then those found in the 90s as would the trains and the once proud Victorian houses of the 50s could be run down, deserted hulks or part of a historical district and shining like a brand new dime. Big cities had rail served industrial areas with houses nearby.
Some negativisms of life should be part of any layout since it tells the whole story instead of a "Leave it to Beaver" perfect world.
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL Again it all gets back to era and local modeled, interests, historic perspective, etc. What is correct for one place and time may be completely out of character for another place and time. Absolutely..The industries would be of a different breed then those found in the 90s as would the trains and the once proud Victorian houses of the 50s could be run down, deserted hulks or part of a historical district and shining like a brand new dime. Big cities had rail served industrial areas with houses nearby. Some negativisms of life should be part of any layout since it tells the whole story instead of a "Leave it to Beaver" perfect world.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Again it all gets back to era and local modeled, interests, historic perspective, etc. What is correct for one place and time may be completely out of character for another place and time.
Yes, some "normal" negatives, normal wear and tear, normal evolution of change, not total gloom and dispair........
Mike in KingsvilleUrban blight and any location close to a railroad line generally are interesting to model. There is an entire subculture in model railroading that loves to see large city buildings and the surrounding run down area surrounding it. Sellios captures it well. Somewhat the same attitude with On30 modelers that get a sense of worn out equipment and "just getting by" railroads. There is room in the hobby for all of us! mike
Sellios is a craftsman and artist of the highest order, as I said before. His "vision" is however "artistic", not realistic in my view. No where, at no time, in this nation, could you have found a place where EVERYTHING was in that state of decay at the same time, no even at the worst of thd depression.
Even the struggling little Ma & Pa painted structures and rolling stock, kept locos relatively clean, cut the grass around the station, picked up the trash, threw away unwanted junk.
Having worked in and around Baltimore all my life, mostly in the construction trades, I understand that things get old, neglected, dirty, worn out. And buildings also get repaired, rebuilt, replaced. It is never all one way or the other.......balance.
Mike, please understand, I have no problem with what others like to model, and may even find it interesting to see. But for my own efforts, too much decay or blight is not interesting, progress, success and hope are more interesting to me.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Since he has been brought up, George Selios is a craftsman and artist of the highest order, but I do not share his "vision" of modeling. The depression was just not as "depressing" as his modeling.....just my view.
I'm with you, Sheldon. There is no question that George Sellios is a man with great skilll and a well-honed ability to evoke a mood. I would call him an artist, just as John Allen and Malcolm Furlow were (are) artists. Nevertheless, I cannot look at the work of any of these artists and wonder whether I'm looking at a model or the prototype. When I see their work, I know I am looking at models. I have said before that Sellios depicts Depression-era Boston as it would have been described by Charles Dickens, and not as it really was. It's the difference between a photographic copy and an impressionistic painting: Both fine within their own defined parameters.
That said, he's really good at what he does.
Tom
Tom,I fully agree Sellios does have great modeling skills and ranks among the best of the best but,every time I see a photo of his layout I can't help thinking of the run down town of Sweet Haven in the movie "Popeye".
Sheldon & Tom -
I totally agree with you on Sellios' F&SM. Amazing detail artistically but a bit over the top realistically. Even some families around the world who struggle financially still have pride in making the most of what they have by being clean[er] & tidy[er] in various degrees.
Some decay and dirt gives a scene depth and realism. Everything decayed and/or rundown loses that realism - at least to me. While I can appreciate the attention to detail and skills of modelers like Sellios, I don't find it is how I desire to model even a prototype layout. Locomotives and rolling stock were in various degrees of conditions and cleanliness.
Is my understanding correct in that George altered his F&SM layout to make it more "operationally-friendly"?
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Find this discussion interesting, as I am currently building an Urban Switching line, served by two railroads, with portions of the layout served by separate and distinct branches of one railroad, the second railroad serving the whole line, circa 1966.
Not only did I grow up within eye sight of a portion of this line, but in my youth, I walked a significant section of the Nothern end of the line, and studied the operation. During my railroad career, I also ran trains and locomotives along this line.
There is no other way to color the surroundings, but as decayed. The town began it's decline some 66 years before the era modeled, but most of the structures from the glory days remained in their decline. In 1966, industry and business still thrived. More recently, perhaps three of the original 100 industrial customers remain.
Among the challenges, is to compress six miles into roughly one scale mile, while at the same time, maintaining a similarity with the prototype. Replicating structures, especially on the South end, will be difficult as photographs are scarce, and currently, much of what was there in '66, some 50 years ago, is gone.
I was delighted to open up the March MR, and find these thought provocing articles, that are actually, to some extent, pertinent, to my goal.
When I look at George Sellios's layout, I am reminded of the challenges in conveying a central idea that a movie maker has versus a novelist. The novelist has all the time and space they need to convey the notion "times are rough and people have no money." A movie maker lacks that luxury of time and has to do it quickly and with an emphasis on obvious visual clues, a few quick visual gestures, or blunt dialog messages -- sometimes so blunt as to seem gratuitous. I think in that sense the layout builder is more in the posture of a movie maker than a novelist.
If the F&SM was totally realistic we might not readily grasp that it is the hard scrabble Depression rather than the prosperous late 1940s. The exaggerations are parallel to what a movie script would aim at.
In a sense all layouts exaggerate what the railroad does and where it goes just by nature of what we choose to model. The "average" - i.e. realistic -- piece of railroad track is in the middle of nowhere running between towns or cities. Unless it is scenically beautiful, that is the part almost all of us cut out entirely or radically (and unrealistically) truncate and de-emphasize. Buildings and roads occupy a hugely disproportionate space on layouts versus the "real" world. Yards, depots, and roundhouses even more so.
To my mind a really nice example of realistic urban modeling is in the 2003 Great Model Railroads with Jerry Strangarity's Reading module of a scene in Philadelphia. It might be Depression era. Or not. An expert in Reading rolling stock would likely know before the rest of us would.
Further to the general theme of Lance Mindheim's article and Neil's editorial, this last weekend I drove through several small towns in eastern Wisconsin and tried to note the ratio of frame or partial frame houses that were white versus various other colors and shades. To my surprise, white was in a distinct minority although it might have been the most common single color.
Dave Nelson
dknelson When I look at George Sellios's layout, I am reminded of the challenges in conveying a central idea that a movie maker has versus a novelist. The novelist has all the time and space they need to convey the notion "times are rough and people have no money." A movie maker lacks that luxury of time and has to do it quickly and with an emphasis on obvious visual clues, a few quick visual gestures, or blunt dialog messages -- sometimes so blunt as to seem gratuitous. I think in that sense the layout builder is more in the posture of a movie maker than a novelist. If the F&SM was totally realistic we might not readily grasp that it is the hard scrabble Depression rather than the prosperous late 1940s. The exaggerations are parallel to what a movie script would aim at. In a sense all layouts exaggerate what the railroad does and where it goes just by nature of what we choose to model. The "average" - i.e. realistic -- piece of railroad track is in the middle of nowhere running between towns or cities. Unless it is scenically beautiful, that is the part almost all of us cut out entirely or radically (and unrealistically) truncate and de-emphasize. Buildings and roads occupy a hugely disproportionate space on layouts versus the "real" world. Yards, depots, and roundhouses even more so. To my mind a really nice example of realistic urban modeling is in the 2003 Great Model Railroads with Jerry Strangarity's Reading module of a scene in Philadelphia. It might be Depression era. Or not. An expert in Reading rolling stock would likely know before the rest of us would. Further to the general theme of Lance Mindheim's article and Neil's editorial, this last weekend I drove through several small towns in eastern Wisconsin and tried to note the ratio of frame or partial frame houses that were white versus various other colors and shades. To my surprise, white was in a distinct minority although it might have been the most common single color. Dave Nelson
Dave, you may well be right on the mark about the method and goals of George Sellios, but for me the message is WAY over done, like a cartoon, or the recent movie version of The Great Gatsby.........
As for white houses, as a Historic Restoration Consultant, this is part of my work, Architectural History.
Fact is, your observation is typical of the last 80-90 years, about 30% of residential frame structures are white. Architectural fashion "experts" have always lobbied against white, and at the height of the Victorian period white represented likely less than 10%. But the depression had two noteable effects. First, white paint was less expensive then, second it was considered unseemly to paint your house some fancy, flashy paint scheme with so many of your neighbors struggling....
Architectural "awareness" varys by region, and changes with each passing decade, but many people at all economic levels understand the history of architectural fashion to some degree, and many don't "settle" for white - in buying paint or picking out vinyl siding.......
Here in my little village once served by the Ma & Pa, only a few houses are white......and most where built around 1900, and none are in serious disrepair.....
I don't have the magazine at hand, but I thought Lance's article was about a short line in Miami.
Geographic location might influence building colors.
LINK to SNSR Blog
ROBERT PETRICK I don't have the magazine at hand, but I thought Lance's article was about a short line in Miami. Geographic location might influence building colors. Robert
After reading the article, my impression was that Lances comments were about the modern era, and understanding how buildings get repurposed over time, or just repainted into more inexpensive schemes. Just like the railroads did.
Modelers tend to model buildings, and locomotive and rolling stock for that matter, in the manner it was designed for on day one. Even in the 50's, a building that was built before WW1 could have seen extensive modifications by then. Kit manufacturers hardly ever design a kit with this repurposing-over-time in mind.
DoughlessModelers tend to model buildings, and locomotive and rolling stock for that matter, in the manner it was designed for on day one. Even in the 50's, a building that was built before WW1 could have seen extensive modifications by then. Kit manufacturers hardly ever design a kit with this repurposing-over-time in mind.
That's an interesting point, yet most locomotives receive their first modification by the time of their first periodic inspection. Things brake or are broken. Each Acela train set, entered service with a different set of modifications. Yet we do tend to model "as built".
The "Attached" home I grew up in was built in 1915, with plumbing and gas. All the light fixtures were initially gas. Utility poles and electric wiring were an after thought.
In searching for suitable structures for my layout I find I need to model a building built prior to 1900 for textile manufacturing, that was repurposed to build automotive steel springs in the 1940s. Using standardized substitutes as stand ins is the most expedient solution, not necessariy the best solution.
wojosa31 Doughless Modelers tend to model buildings, and locomotive and rolling stock for that matter, in the manner it was designed for on day one. Even in the 50's, a building that was built before WW1 could have seen extensive modifications by then. Kit manufacturers hardly ever design a kit with this repurposing-over-time in mind. That's an interesting point, yet most locomotives receive their first modification by the time of their first periodic inspection. Things brake or are broken. Each Acela train set, entered service with a different set of modifications. Yet we do tend to model "as built". The "Attached" home I grew up in was built in 1915, with plumbing and gas. All the light fixtures were initially gas. Utility poles and electric wiring were an after thought. In searching for suitable structures for my layout I find I need to model a building built prior to 1900 for textile manufacturing, that was repurposed to build automotive steel springs in the 1940s. Using standardized substitutes as stand ins is the most expedient solution, not necessariy the best solution.
Doughless Modelers tend to model buildings, and locomotive and rolling stock for that matter, in the manner it was designed for on day one. Even in the 50's, a building that was built before WW1 could have seen extensive modifications by then. Kit manufacturers hardly ever design a kit with this repurposing-over-time in mind.
Yep. With the way Athearn and Proto build their GP9s, everybody must be modeling 1958.
Doughless wojosa31 Doughless Modelers tend to model buildings, and locomotive and rolling stock for that matter, in the manner it was designed for on day one. Even in the 50's, a building that was built before WW1 could have seen extensive modifications by then. Kit manufacturers hardly ever design a kit with this repurposing-over-time in mind. That's an interesting point, yet most locomotives receive their first modification by the time of their first periodic inspection. Things brake or are broken. Each Acela train set, entered service with a different set of modifications. Yet we do tend to model "as built". The "Attached" home I grew up in was built in 1915, with plumbing and gas. All the light fixtures were initially gas. Utility poles and electric wiring were an after thought. In searching for suitable structures for my layout I find I need to model a building built prior to 1900 for textile manufacturing, that was repurposed to build automotive steel springs in the 1940s. Using standardized substitutes as stand ins is the most expedient solution, not necessariy the best solution. Yep. With the way Athearn and Proto build their GP9s, everybody must be modeling 1958.
Well I model 1954, so my GP7's are still pretty much as built......
But I bought a set of undecorated Proto2000 F7's years ago, and was very unhappy to find that they came with modernized shells that reflected the late 60's, and not the as built versions to fit my era. Walthers had no correct shells to give or even sell......
Needless to say it was of of the few times I sold off a model train item after purchasing it. So I think you will find at least some locos are "updated" versions based on paint scheme, later era use, etc.
I also know this to be fact with a great many steamers, Bachmann 2-10-2's, for example, mostly represent those locos as they looked in the 40's, not as they looked when new.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Well I model 1954, so my GP7's are still pretty much as built...... But I bought a set of undecorated Proto2000 F7's years ago, and was very unhappy to find that they came with modernized shells that reflected the late 60's, and not the as built versions to fit my era. Walthers had no correct shells to give or even sell...... Needless to say it was of of the few times I sold off a model train item after purchasing it. So I think you will find at least some locos are "updated" versions based on paint scheme, later era use, etc. I also know this to be fact with a great many steamers, Bachmann 2-10-2's, for example, mostly represent those locos as they looked in the 40's, not as they looked when new. Sheldon
My statement was an overgeneralization of course. My point being is that if Walthers or Athearn made a modern modified version of a GP9 by simply using parts from their stock already, ditch lights from the GP60/GP15, paper air filter box from Details West, decaled conspicuity stripes; and paint the loco solid black and numbered but not lettered, my guess is that one run of that model would sell very quickly and at a higher street price than most other GP9s. Even large basement sized layouts have a need for a branchline or shortline locomotive, and a modernized GP9 would be in strong demand.
But the manufacturers will probably just stay in-the-box and crank out another run of PRR painted and detailed GP9s, albeit in three different road numbers they never offered before for the folks who collect PRR GP9s.