I read the subject line and knew right away what your complaint would be. I think that if vendors are going to pack up early, then the public should be refunded a portion of their tickets. Or, sell "last hour" discount tickets.
Modeling the D&H in 1984: http://dandhcoloniemain.blogspot.com/
Benjamin Maggi I read the subject line and knew right away what your complaint would be. I think that if vendors are going to pack up early, then the public should be refunded a portion of their tickets. Or, sell "last hour" discount tickets.
Last weekend was the show in Sioux Falls, SD. Official close time is 4 PM, and a lot of those folks were facing 4 to 6 hour drives in marginal weather.I'd pack up early too.And (not) strangely, the folks who were packing up, if I asked if they had something and they did, they were only too glad to unpack it, or in the case of timetables, to riffle through the box as they packed other stuff. They didn't have the TT I was after but they let me look.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
andrechapelonthey could be charged double/triple for procrastinating until the last minute
I wonder how many people intentionally show up during the last hour of a show in the first place.
I can only think of three reasons why some may arrive at the last minute:
They were unavoidably delayed.
They are hoping to get a bargain using the "vendor will give it away to avoid carrying it home" theory.
They wish to complain that they went to the show but couldn't find what they wanted because it was already gone.
andrechapelon...the Johnny-come-latelies who seem to think that it's "all about me".
Yeah. Just another version of that irritating "the customer is always right."
The customer being the person who paid to get in.
Ed
7j43kThe customer being the person who paid to get in. Ed
OUCH! That's the bitter truth of the matter..A paying customer should have models and other goodies to view.
But,After a long drive, set up,a long day which may have been marginal at best I can fully understand the early quit if there are few non buying browsing customers and little or no new attendees entering the show.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Benjamin Maggi,Last hour ticket sales are generally non-existent at the train shows I go to. The last show I did, the ticket taker table was packed up and gone from the hallway by 3PM for a show that went to 4PM. Yep, the show hosts themselves packed up before any dealer did. No one who arrived in the last hour paid a dime to be there at that show and at several others that I attend. You can't get much more of a discount than that.
Andre,
maxman,IMHO, it is usually choice #2: people want to bargain shop more than anything else. Sure, some are detained and some just want to complain, but I swear some must think that dealers will be giving stuff away free at 3:59PM. Um, no. The professional dealers know there will be another show next week/next month. They didn't tote all that stuff around just to give it away, even at cost. Generally only the hobbyist dealers tend to make deals, and most of them sell on eBay now.
In all my 25 years of doing train shows, only once have I ever got anything free at the end of a show. It was off a white elephant table at an NRHS show, and a much older man was, with difficulty, carrying a real cast iron semaphore spectacle. I had bought something from him already, and as he passed me as I was packing up my own stuff, I had the thought of helping him carry it out. I said with a smile, "Heavy enough for you?" And before I could even stand up to offer a hand, he looks at me and says, "You want it?" Stunned, I said, "Sure!" He replied, "Here!" and hands me the thing and walks out the door. I called out, "Thanks!" and I never saw that man again. I still have that spectacle, too.
Again, that's once in 25 years and doing a couple hundred shows.
7j43k,Oh, good. That means that I, a train show dealer that paid hundreds of dollars to attend the train show, is a customer, too. As such, I'm always right! I guess that means I can leave whenever I want, just like anyone else who pays to get in to a show.
Brakie,Few shows charge last-hour admission, in my experience.
Paul3 7j43k, Oh, good. That means that I, a train show dealer that paid hundreds of dollars to attend the train show, is a customer, too. As such, I'm always right! I guess that means I can leave whenever I want, just like anyone else who pays to get in to a show.
7j43k,
Oh, good. That means that I, a train show dealer that paid hundreds of dollars to attend the train show, is a customer, too. As such, I'm always right! I guess that means I can leave whenever I want, just like anyone else who pays to get in to a show.
Well, yeah. IF your contract with the promoter says so.
A problem arises if the promoter makes that contract with you and also a contract with attendees that the show will be fully populated for the advertised length of the show. THAT would appear dishonest.
Perhaps the promoter should include in his advertising that vendors may leave early. That way no one is mislead.
Bayfield Transfer Railway Last weekend was the show in Sioux Falls, SD. Official close time is 4 PM, and a lot of those folks were facing 4 to 6 hour drives in marginal weather.I'd pack up early too.And (not) strangely, the folks who were packing up, if I asked if they had something and they did, they were only too glad to unpack it, or in the case of timetables, to riffle through the box as they packed other stuff. They didn't have the TT I was after but they let me look.
My feeling is that people who arrive in the last hour should probably get a discounted ticket.
However, many vendors will sell things cheaply to avoid packing them up and hauling them around again. So the buyers can get great deals, if the vendor still has some selection left.
- Douglas
Paul3 I swear some must think that dealers will be giving stuff away free at 3:59PM. Um, no. The professional dealers know there will be another show next week/next month. They didn't tote all that stuff around just to give it away, even at cost. Generally only the hobbyist dealers tend to make deals
I only do one show a year, and that is the Amherst show. So I guess that makes me a hobbyist dealer. Amherst is a two day show that closes at 5 pm both days. I don't start packing up until 4:30 on the second day. And I have made some sales after that time.
But the reality is most of the sales are made on Saturday, the first day. On Sunday most of the crowd are people looking for something to do after church and lunch. I call them the lookie-loos. So it gets pretty tiring standing around on the concrete all day Sunday waiting for a buyer to come along. By the time 4:30 comes along I'm ready to be outa-there. I'm afraid that I don't have much sympathy for late arrivers at that point. And I scratchbuild the items I sell, so no, don't expect a discount either.
Ed,Generally, only the big train shows have a contract that states anything about length of attendance. Springfield can get away with it because they are the biggest show in the land with a multi-year waiting list for dealers. Everyone makes money at that show, so no one will test that. Besides, a dealer might as well stay 'til the end at Springfield because the traffic is awful getting out of that place. Staying another 30 to 60 min. past the end of the show avoids a lot of that.
At a small show, there's no language in any contract I've signed that says anything about packing up early. There's clauses about possible refunds if a dealer cancels early and things like that, but packing up early is not in them.
As for a contract for a train show ticket buyer? C'mon. There is no such thing. As long as the show building is open to the ticker buyer, the contents therein are not guaranteed. You could buy a ticket into a "train show" and find nothing inside but a Brio wooden train set. It would be an awful trick to play on someone, but it would be legal.
maxman,Where are you at Springfield?
Paul3maxman, Where are you at Springfield?
Hello Paul3. I don't think they've posted this year's floorplan yet. But the past several years I've been in the BLC, section 2A, table F. This is on the perimeter of the BLC on the highway side of the building. You can look up "Loadman" on the who's-who vendor list.
If you get a chance please stop by and say hello.
I didn't show up in Sioux Falls until 2:30 Sunday, but that's because I couldn't get there earlier. And I'm sure not upset at people who were already starting to pack up.I used to live in Boston, and yeah, at Springfield after about 2 PM Saturday sales don't drop so much as plummet. Our club (North Shore Model RR Club) has a table there and we've watched the sales pattern.
maxman,Hey, no kiddin'? I actually bought a load from you a couple years ago. It was a big steel plate on an angled frame, complete with hand-drawn writing on it (I asked you how you did it). I still use that load at my club's steel mill. Thanks for making it because it's certainly the best looking steel load we have; I've certainly heard a bunch of positive comments about it from members and visitors alike.
Say, if you'd like an idea, at my club we'll be running steel plates from our steel mill to a shipyard. We can't model the actual shipyard (because even our 6300+ sq ft. room doesn't have the room for that), but instead it will be an interchange with the Fore River RR (a Bethlehem Steel RR & shipyard). I know we could use a few more good looking plate loads...
Paul3 I know we could use a few more good looking plate loads.
It took 3 pages, but a rant thread turned into something productive!
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Paul3It was a big steel plate on an angled frame, complete with hand-drawn writing on it
Oh, you must mean:
Or these:?
This went longer than I imagined. I see the value in all the arguments, but I don't think it is necessary to go to the ad hominem remarks. I don't think the show is all about me. I don't think I have an attitude about it. I don't go "at the last minute", I simply went over there during the posted hours. No need for hostility. before I closed my business and retired, I never closed early on Friday, and if I had to be away, I put up a sign the night before, and stating my return hour. Even though friday business was always slow, I never felt put-upon to honor my hours. If I wasn't going to honor my hours, why even have them? If it is so awful standing there at a show, why do the show? Sell your stuff on ebay and stay at home. No standing, and no hours to tie up.
Next year if I decide to attend the show - and they had the flyers for next year's show out on the tables by the exit - I suppose if I am going about my day, and see if has gotten to be after 2PM, I just won;t bother. LAter in the day, the crowd is smaller, so I can more easily walk the aisles, and the rest tables in the center actually have empty seats so I can rest my legs. I am not young.
EnzoampsI suppose if I am going about my day, and see if has gotten to be after 2PM, I just won;t bother.
Try this..Go early and return home and then go about your daily routine. You're retired like me and one day out isn't like a precious day off work since retirement is a permanent vacation.
Besides we're no longer young so,we best enjoy life by doing things we enjoy before that fella with the sickle and black robe comes a' knocking..
I get short winded or my back plays out and its coffee break time until my back eases up.
I have most definitely experienced sellers taking my discounted offers for items near the end of the show, when they refused to take the offer before that. That's when I bother to stay 2 hours, or when I attend the end of the second day of the show.
The risk is hardly ever that they don't take my offer. The risk is that the item is no longer there when I come back.
Its like garage sales. Go early because the good stuff is gone quick.
CGW121 Its like garage sales. Go early because the good stuff is gone quick.
Yes When advertised trains at my yard sale they went within 10 minutes of opening.
Joe Staten Island West
We all heard that old saying "The early bird gets the worm" and that holds true for train shows and garage sales especially if the folks are selling trains.
Paul3 At a small show, there's no language in any contract I've signed that says anything about packing up early. There's clauses about possible refunds if a dealer cancels early and things like that, but packing up early is not in them. As for a contract for a train show ticket buyer? C'mon. There is no such thing.
As for a contract for a train show ticket buyer? C'mon. There is no such thing.
Legally, there ARE contracts. Two, in this case. In both instances, money is conveyed from one party. The other party is obligated to deliver "product". Briefly, in this case a train show and a place to sell. Thus, a contract. Settling on further details of what is and is not included could be settled in small claims court. Some terms may not be stated, but are implied.
I doubt anyone would bring a claim to court. But ya never know.
In the case of an attendee, the promoter's side of the obligation may be obtained from his advertising, since that is what is presented to the attendee. And, generally, there are hours of operation stated. And, unless otherwise stated, the described offerings, such as guys selling trains, should be there the whole time. In the extreme, presenting an attendee with an empty room an hour before closing violates the contract. And going the other way, one guy being gone early out of 50 would not. But at some point a contractual violation (between the attendee and the PROMOTER) would occur. And a good start at determining that is when an attendee notices and is disappointed. As occurred here.
It is certainly true that there is no contract between the attendee and the table buyer. The contracts are only between each of them and the promoter.
So, while the problem for the attendee starts with the actions of some table buyers, his contract is really with the promoter, not the buyers. And so I would recommend aiming one's disappointment at the promoter.
Considering the table sellers who think it ok to leave early because of slow sales: I wonder what they would say if they were selling product like "hot cakes" and the promoter decided to close an hour early because it suited his plans. Would THEY not complain?
Paul3 Enzoamps,I have been a train show dealer for 25 years; as such I have been to hundreds of train shows. In this market of train show retail, it's all about the economics. Most small train shows need all the dealers they can find to make a good profit. Without dealers, there's no show. In this kind of small show market, the show won't threaten to disinvite a dealer over packing up early (especially if it's really slow). The dealer will simply leave whenever they want, and next year they'll be back, no questions asked. At a big show, or at the biggest show (Springfield), there's actually a long waiting list for dealers to get into the show. No dealer at Springfield wants to jeopordize their table space by leaving early because it can take years on the waiting list to get in. The Springfield Show reminds dealers that all tables are to remain open for the entire show, that leaving early can result in a disinvite for next year and a return to the waiting list. Dealers comply because the show is such a money maker for every dealer that they'd be foolish to risk it (I know one dealer who told me that Springfield was 30% of his annual train show income). Do I pack up early at small shows? Yep, but then we usually hold off until the last 30 min. or so even when it's dead. Packing up a full hour or more before the end of the show is a little much for me, but I don't really begrudge a dealer that does. Look it at from a dealer's perspective. After spending $25 to $100 per table, some of these guys drive a hundred miles or more in a gas-guzzling truck/van to get to the show, getting up early on a Sunday morning after packing the van/trailer the day/night before. They get to the show an hour or three before the show opens to set up, and it's very busy getting everything just right. Then you spend the next several hours selling to the public, some of whom would try the patience of a saint: some of them try to talk you down on price, some of them drop fragile items on the floor, many of them ask for things you don't have or ask inane questions about things you have no interest in. A very rare few will try to shoplift, so you have to be on the lookout for that, too. There's usually a mad rush in the first hour or two as the "hardcore hobbyists" make their way through the show. This is when you really make money, generally. Then it calms a bit around lunch, then there's the post-lunch crowd of mostly families and tire-kickers who spend enough money for the early afternoon hours to be profitable. After this second group leaves, there's not much going on. By 3PM in a small show, there's usually more dealers than customers (especially during pro football season). By the time the show closes at 4PM, the dealer has been awake for about 10 to 11 hours; it's been a full day, but it ain't over yet. It can take another 30 min. to 2 hours to pack everything up, depending on how they box things. Then they have to drive home for perhaps 1 to 2 more hours. After they get home, they might have to unload the contents of their van/truck immediately because they use the vehicle for their real job, or for their family, or it's not a secure parking spot, or it's a hobby shop and it all has to go back on the shelves tonight because the shop opens at 10AM the next day. A dealer can easily spend 14 hours in a day just working for the table. I hope one can understand why a dealer may want to shave anything they can from that, especially when the last hour at a show is unprofitable. Yes, several local restaurants near me always close well before the sign says. And by that I mean the kitchen closes early. You can stay and eat your food until the sign says they're open, but you can't order any food the last 30 to 60 min. They won't serve you because they're cleaning the kitchen instead. 7j43k,"Dishonorable" to pack up early? Remember that we dealers pay to be at the show; the show isn't paying us to be there. We're just as much a customer of the show as anyone walking through the door (and we pay a heckuva lot more). Now, some shows do have contracts, and some of those contracts specify when a dealer can pack up and leave with penalities for leaving early. Violating that contract can result in those penalities being enforced, but my honor isn't stained because I packed up early any more than the show is being dishonorable for not bringing in enough customers for the end of the show. And yes, I've seen modular layouts pack up early. Heck, it happened at the last two train shows I did this Fall. Two different groups of O-scale tinplaters packed it in before we did (and we were just as glad, really; the noise was deafening and the smoke overpowering). And yes, they did it last year, too. AFAIK, they've done it for 20 consectutive years at the one show. Few, if anyone, minds.
Enzoamps,I have been a train show dealer for 25 years; as such I have been to hundreds of train shows.
In this market of train show retail, it's all about the economics. Most small train shows need all the dealers they can find to make a good profit. Without dealers, there's no show. In this kind of small show market, the show won't threaten to disinvite a dealer over packing up early (especially if it's really slow). The dealer will simply leave whenever they want, and next year they'll be back, no questions asked.
At a big show, or at the biggest show (Springfield), there's actually a long waiting list for dealers to get into the show. No dealer at Springfield wants to jeopordize their table space by leaving early because it can take years on the waiting list to get in. The Springfield Show reminds dealers that all tables are to remain open for the entire show, that leaving early can result in a disinvite for next year and a return to the waiting list. Dealers comply because the show is such a money maker for every dealer that they'd be foolish to risk it (I know one dealer who told me that Springfield was 30% of his annual train show income).
Do I pack up early at small shows? Yep, but then we usually hold off until the last 30 min. or so even when it's dead. Packing up a full hour or more before the end of the show is a little much for me, but I don't really begrudge a dealer that does.
Look it at from a dealer's perspective. After spending $25 to $100 per table, some of these guys drive a hundred miles or more in a gas-guzzling truck/van to get to the show, getting up early on a Sunday morning after packing the van/trailer the day/night before. They get to the show an hour or three before the show opens to set up, and it's very busy getting everything just right. Then you spend the next several hours selling to the public, some of whom would try the patience of a saint: some of them try to talk you down on price, some of them drop fragile items on the floor, many of them ask for things you don't have or ask inane questions about things you have no interest in. A very rare few will try to shoplift, so you have to be on the lookout for that, too.
There's usually a mad rush in the first hour or two as the "hardcore hobbyists" make their way through the show. This is when you really make money, generally. Then it calms a bit around lunch, then there's the post-lunch crowd of mostly families and tire-kickers who spend enough money for the early afternoon hours to be profitable. After this second group leaves, there's not much going on. By 3PM in a small show, there's usually more dealers than customers (especially during pro football season).
By the time the show closes at 4PM, the dealer has been awake for about 10 to 11 hours; it's been a full day, but it ain't over yet. It can take another 30 min. to 2 hours to pack everything up, depending on how they box things. Then they have to drive home for perhaps 1 to 2 more hours. After they get home, they might have to unload the contents of their van/truck immediately because they use the vehicle for their real job, or for their family, or it's not a secure parking spot, or it's a hobby shop and it all has to go back on the shelves tonight because the shop opens at 10AM the next day.
A dealer can easily spend 14 hours in a day just working for the table. I hope one can understand why a dealer may want to shave anything they can from that, especially when the last hour at a show is unprofitable.
Yes, several local restaurants near me always close well before the sign says. And by that I mean the kitchen closes early. You can stay and eat your food until the sign says they're open, but you can't order any food the last 30 to 60 min. They won't serve you because they're cleaning the kitchen instead.
7j43k,"Dishonorable" to pack up early? Remember that we dealers pay to be at the show; the show isn't paying us to be there. We're just as much a customer of the show as anyone walking through the door (and we pay a heckuva lot more). Now, some shows do have contracts, and some of those contracts specify when a dealer can pack up and leave with penalities for leaving early. Violating that contract can result in those penalities being enforced, but my honor isn't stained because I packed up early any more than the show is being dishonorable for not bringing in enough customers for the end of the show.
And yes, I've seen modular layouts pack up early. Heck, it happened at the last two train shows I did this Fall. Two different groups of O-scale tinplaters packed it in before we did (and we were just as glad, really; the noise was deafening and the smoke overpowering). And yes, they did it last year, too. AFAIK, they've done it for 20 consectutive years at the one show. Few, if anyone, minds.
An incentive to dealers would be for the sponsors to have a drawing of those who stayed till closing time. It could be a free table(s) of the same size for the next year. Would that be a good idea? Seems as "FREE" always catches the eye.
God's Best & Happy Rails to You!
Bing (RIPRR The Route of the Buzzards)
The future: Dead Rail Society
Another thing to do is for the dealers that leave early, place a card on their table stating:
XYZ exhibitor has left early. Deciding that they do not need your money! Please do NOT look for them next year.
Or something of this ilk for customers to know why the spot is empty.
Yeah, absolutely do that. And then sit around two years later with your thumb up your butt wondering where all the dealers went.
Well, there was that HA Smith cartoon in MR many years ago (60's, IIRC) wherein a shady individual in a trench coat in an alley was accosting strangers with the line, "Pssst, hey buddy, wanna buy a hot Mikado?". Of course, that is so 20th Century and all, but what the heck? Everything old can be new again. The advantage for the dealer is that no one charges for alley space and you can pick your own hours.
Here's another idea. Convert old food trucks to mobile train stores. Would also work with old bookmobiles, mobile blood banks, motorhomes, etc. Actually, if it looks like a motorhome, you could always use a Wal-Mart parking lot.
Resurrecting more old ideas, back when I was a kid, there was the weekly visit of the Helms bakery man who sold all kinds of baked goods from a truck. Why not trains? Then there was the Fuller Brush man who went door to door selling grooming products.....
Good times.
Andre
Hey DAD!!! The Athearn guy is at the door, wants to talk to you.
Thanks again for further responses. If I perceived this as a problem to solve, sure, I could be there when it opened. And if I were looking at this as snapping up that rare Pacific Fast MAil loco I drooled over 60 years ago before anyone else sees it, same approach. I visit shows like this looking for odd things I didn't know existed, or old things I am glad to see still exist. And books about the B&O. I like the club layouts to see if anything new is happening. (Still not sold on sound) I had an interesting chat with a member hovering around their traction layout with operating catenary. For me it is a liesurely activity. My career was in entertainment - show biz. And I spent most of my adult life up late. My technical services company was open for business until 2AM. I don;t often feel like getting up early enough to be 15 miles away by 10AM. This past show for example, I was doing things around the apartment when I reailzed the time, and said "I can still get in an hour of the show" and went. The show had over 500 tables, and that is more walking than I can do in one shot anyway - I am good for an hour.
My mom was a regular customer of the Fuller Brush man. And the Avon lady...
The Athearn guy never came down our street. Or Varney...
Convert Food Trucks or any vehicle to moble train stores!!!!!
Hahaha Good One!!!
bing&kathyXYZ exhibitor has left early. Deciding that they do not need your money! Please do NOT look for them next year.
Or better..
XYZ exhibitor waited all day for you to show..He figured you was a no show and decided to call it a day. He hopes to see you next year.
..
Sorry..Couldn't let that one side.To funny.