I went to the annual Model Train show today, at the MSU pavilion in East Lansing, Michigan. I haven't been to others elsewhere, but this seems pretty sizable to me. A number of clubs had operating layouts. MANY tables of people selling locos and rolling stock, books, structures, railroad stuff. Everything from tiny Z to garden size. $6 doesn;t break the bank.
I chatted with some nice folks. I asked a guy if anyone still sold the old Athearn rubber band drive locos, at which point he picked up an RDC he had with exactly that.
It is a one day show, 10AM to 4PM, just six hours. At 70, I am good for wandering about an hour before I run out of steam myself. SO I drove up there arriving about 3PM. There was my hour before it closed. Except many vendors were already packing up. By 3:30 a lot of empty tables were showing. Some vendors were sitting behind their tables with their goods all in stacked brown cardboard boxes. No way to know what was in there.
In fairness, many vendors were open until close. (I left at 4PM) But I must register my disappointment that for a one day show of only six hours duration, so many vendors had already called it a day. And I will contact the show organizers.
So does anyone share my frustration at this, its it common? or do I just have unrealistic expectations.I have attended this show in several years past, and while any show might have a few early closers, I don;t recall it being this blatant before.
It's common for about any type of event, whether for show or for sale.
I call that deal time :-) It's when you run thru the place throwing out offers on stuff to see if they want to take it home or take what your offering.
At most shows the earlier times equal bigger sales and more dollars spent and it wanes as the day goes on. Once it starts drying up, its time to start packing up.
It's actually a marketing tool, and it's also a market. So, like Ye Olde Farmer's Market on a Saturday morning somewhere/anywhere, the early birds get the pick of everything. You can be sure that the vendors and displayors were in place and set up about half an hour before the show opened, and even then they had many hungry eyes peering through the keyholes.
Nearer to closing, it becomes a mad rush for the exits. People know when they have had their best run-hour, and then it's all downhill. The vendors must want to get home and to salvage what's left of their weekend without waiting for all those cars and vans to exit the parking lot in good order.
If a "show" is advertised for six hours, the sellers should be present and selling the whole time. It's dishonorable to do otherwise.
I've sold at shows, and I never pack up early. Never. I might bring a book or something, just in case things are incredibly slow. But I made an implied contract to be available the whole time. So I'm there the whole time. And so is my stuff.
I've also been involved in modular setup at shows. What if WE just decided we'd had enough and left an hour early? How'd THAT look? D'ya think we'd be invited back?
Ed
Thanks, Ed. My feelings too. I understand WHY vendors might quit early, but seems to me they signed up for a time slot. Imagine if your local restaurant closed up an hour early, or the gas station. Or the club car on your train. Yes, many if not most had a price marked down sign. I didn't go late to get a price, I went because I naively thought it would be a full show in progress.
Apparently next year, if it says 10-4, I must assume that means 9:30-2:30.
and I thought you had a female dog about the BURGERS.
Johnboy.................................out
from Saskatchewan, in the Great White North..
We have met the enemy, and he is us............ (Pogo)
It is a time vs. money thing to many vendors. Unless the show organizer insists vendors stay open until closing, many start thinking about packing up when people and sales start slacking off. They feel that the extra half hour would not result in much more sales compared to earlier in the day.
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
Maybe the shows should simply open at 10, with no closing time. So the vendors would leave whenever they wanted, sorta like they do already. And the attendees wouldn't feel mis-informed.
Enzoamps,I have been a train show dealer for 25 years; as such I have been to hundreds of train shows.
In this market of train show retail, it's all about the economics. Most small train shows need all the dealers they can find to make a good profit. Without dealers, there's no show. In this kind of small show market, the show won't threaten to disinvite a dealer over packing up early (especially if it's really slow). The dealer will simply leave whenever they want, and next year they'll be back, no questions asked.
At a big show, or at the biggest show (Springfield), there's actually a long waiting list for dealers to get into the show. No dealer at Springfield wants to jeopordize their table space by leaving early because it can take years on the waiting list to get in. The Springfield Show reminds dealers that all tables are to remain open for the entire show, that leaving early can result in a disinvite for next year and a return to the waiting list. Dealers comply because the show is such a money maker for every dealer that they'd be foolish to risk it (I know one dealer who told me that Springfield was 30% of his annual train show income).
Do I pack up early at small shows? Yep, but then we usually hold off until the last 30 min. or so even when it's dead. Packing up a full hour or more before the end of the show is a little much for me, but I don't really begrudge a dealer that does.
Look it at from a dealer's perspective. After spending $25 to $100 per table, some of these guys drive a hundred miles or more in a gas-guzzling truck/van to get to the show, getting up early on a Sunday morning after packing the van/trailer the day/night before. They get to the show an hour or three before the show opens to set up, and it's very busy getting everything just right. Then you spend the next several hours selling to the public, some of whom would try the patience of a saint: some of them try to talk you down on price, some of them drop fragile items on the floor, many of them ask for things you don't have or ask inane questions about things you have no interest in. A very rare few will try to shoplift, so you have to be on the lookout for that, too.
There's usually a mad rush in the first hour or two as the "hardcore hobbyists" make their way through the show. This is when you really make money, generally. Then it calms a bit around lunch, then there's the post-lunch crowd of mostly families and tire-kickers who spend enough money for the early afternoon hours to be profitable. After this second group leaves, there's not much going on. By 3PM in a small show, there's usually more dealers than customers (especially during pro football season).
By the time the show closes at 4PM, the dealer has been awake for about 10 to 11 hours; it's been a full day, but it ain't over yet. It can take another 30 min. to 2 hours to pack everything up, depending on how they box things. Then they have to drive home for perhaps 1 to 2 more hours. After they get home, they might have to unload the contents of their van/truck immediately because they use the vehicle for their real job, or for their family, or it's not a secure parking spot, or it's a hobby shop and it all has to go back on the shelves tonight because the shop opens at 10AM the next day.
A dealer can easily spend 14 hours in a day just working for the table. I hope one can understand why a dealer may want to shave anything they can from that, especially when the last hour at a show is unprofitable.
Yes, several local restaurants near me always close well before the sign says. And by that I mean the kitchen closes early. You can stay and eat your food until the sign says they're open, but you can't order any food the last 30 to 60 min. They won't serve you because they're cleaning the kitchen instead.
7j43k,"Dishonorable" to pack up early? Remember that we dealers pay to be at the show; the show isn't paying us to be there. We're just as much a customer of the show as anyone walking through the door (and we pay a heckuva lot more). Now, some shows do have contracts, and some of those contracts specify when a dealer can pack up and leave with penalities for leaving early. Violating that contract can result in those penalities being enforced, but my honor isn't stained because I packed up early any more than the show is being dishonorable for not bringing in enough customers for the end of the show.
And yes, I've seen modular layouts pack up early. Heck, it happened at the last two train shows I did this Fall. Two different groups of O-scale tinplaters packed it in before we did (and we were just as glad, really; the noise was deafening and the smoke overpowering). And yes, they did it last year, too. AFAIK, they've done it for 20 consectutive years at the one show. Few, if anyone, minds.
I have had two sellers to tell me if you don't make money in the first four hours you're better off to start packing and call it a lost.
Six hours may seem petty but,its far more not only for the dealer reasons that Paul pointed out but,for the host. The night before the show you spend time setting up tables and chairs and waiting for the early bird dealers to set up plus if there are modular layouts they need time to set up.The host has already 8-10 hours into prepping the show. Show day begins the next morning at 6 am and the dealers start arriving.After the show there is clean up.
I can fully understand why a dealer packs up early since business is slow and there's only a handful of browsing customers left and no new attendee has walked through the door in the last hour..
Your best bet is to go to the show early and not wait until the last possible hour.
There is a old saw among fishermen and I believe it works for just about any hobby or sport.. If you wanna catch fish then you gotta get going. What that means is "Go and get it done and not fool around wasting time".
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Pauls experience echo's mine in retail. The people shopping the afternoon of Christmas eve have no idea what size Uncle Charlie wears, they expect a much broader selection and they don't want to spend any money.
The people who go shopping in the midst of a huricanne or blizzard are just plain weird. They don't want to spend any money either.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
If you want the full experience of any show, get there earlier. The last hour of any show things have been picked over and people are thinking of leaving.
As was noted, some vendors travel much further distances than those attending the show, so they are under a different set of pressures. I'm not 70 (yet) but driving after dark is kinda iffy and I try to avoid it myself, so this time of year, that's a factor for some, too. Better safe than sorry, even if you might miss a last minute sale or two.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
WHERE IS THE BEEF! LION cam in here looking for BEEF. RARE JUCICY TENDER BEEF!
Saturday December 4th is the Open House, here at the Abbey. It is from 1 to 4 PM. Bread is usually sold outin an hour or so, then the customers come looking into the wine cellar. I NEVER sell out the wine cellar as I take in 20 palets of wine just a month earlier. Still by 3:30 everything is essentilally done, the Bread room is closed and it is just the wince cellar and the gift shop that carry on. I'll continue to sell even after 4PM, since I sell wine whenever anybody come to buy wine (Except Sunday Morning, when the law does not allow it).
The only show that I went to, I was there for the whole thing. This was the Transit and Traction show held at the Rutger's Campus in New Jersey. That is where I bought my first subway train. The guy was asking $100.00 but since I was the only one taking a real interest in it, I eventually got it for $90, which was not a bad deal since the list on in (in those days) was $120.
Sellers at such shows are free agents, they pay for their space, and the promoters do not mind if the leave early, they got their money, and if the venue can start cleaning up early everybodyu (almost) is happy.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Thanks for the considered replies. Apparently I am in the minority. Strikes me as an agreement broken, but that is just me. I wonder if the club operating session is scheduled from 6 until 10, and I get bored after 8, I could just leave my train on the track and walk away. MAke it a two hour sale and be done with it then. As a customer, I don't take kindly to someone who says he will be there until 4 and then leaves at 3. If I drive my family 20 miles to an 8 o'clock movie and find they decided not to show it so they could all go home, I'd not return any time soon.
Enzoamps Thanks for the considered replies. Apparently I am in the minority. Strikes me as an agreement broken, but that is just me. I wonder if the club operating session is scheduled from 6 until 10, and I get bored after 8, I could just leave my train on the track and walk away. MAke it a two hour sale and be done with it then. As a customer, I don't take kindly to someone who says he will be there until 4 and then leaves at 3. If I drive my family 20 miles to an 8 o'clock movie and find they decided not to show it so they could all go home, I'd not return any time soon.
Actually I agree with you to the extent that they should let people in for free for the last hour of the show. Maybe knowing that free-bes will be entering late will keep vendors in place for that hour.
Enzoamps ... Strikes me as an agreement broken, but that is just me...
... Strikes me as an agreement broken, but that is just me...
No, not really. It's not just you. Every mature adult who is trusted by at least one other person knows that contracts, promises, and pacts have to be honoured in a civilized society. If we couldn't trust one another to honour our agreements, we'd be a much different culture...if you could even call it one.
However, this is an informal arrangement a best. As Paul said earlier, the vendor is a client as well, and expects a return on 'investment' that the venue manager couldn't possibly guarantee. As an extreme example, the day of the early spring train show there's a nasty blizzard that dumps 10" of snow over four whole hours. In deep drifts. What could/should the venue do, or what should all the vendors do, if the thing is predictably a terrible bust because only six snowmobilers and five snowshoers manage to beat their paths to the door during the entire opening timeline?
Or, after two hours of no customer interest, but with one hour left of his paid time at a table, the vendor understands that there are probably not going to be any more sales, and he's accomplished most or all of his expectations anyway. He ought to call it a day. If it were me, I'd do the obituary thing...a public announcement that those dallying had better get to X's table within 15 minutes because he's closing his enterprise for the day.
If a movie theater decided not to show the movie, it would be tantamount to the train show, as a group, also deciding not to have it. At all. That sounds like an apples and oranges comparison with the problem you raised at the outset...the odd vendor packing it in when things go dead...AFTER having run his table for several hours, productive or not.
EnzoampsApparently I am in the minority. Strikes me as an agreement broken, but that is just me.
I couldn´t agree more to you!
I find this behaviour disgraceful! When a train show is advertised to be open until a set hour, I expect all exhibitors and dealers to be present until the advertized closing date. Packing up early is a slap in the face of the customer.
I don´t understand the folks in here finding excuses for this behaviour.
Having been a member of a group sponsoring an annual show for twenty years, and taking part in over 100 other shows as part of a group exhibit I feel that packing up early is unacceptable.
Our club layout kept trains running until closing time. We expected dealers to remain open until closing time.
We took an hour to teardown and pack our trailer, and sometimes a two hour drive home. If you can't handle it, don't take part.
Dave
It's the chicken-or-the-egg Catch 22 kind of thing. The crowds don't stick around till 4 because the vendors have packed up, and the vendors pack up because the crowds don't stick around. Ideally everyone should stick around with high enthusiasm till the very end, but I have no expectations things will be that way. I go early. Of course, the early crowd is still in the coffee-and-donut phase so there's always the possibility of sticky fingerprints on stuff . . . but that's another matter.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
Enzoamps,So what's your solution? If a small show decides to kick out every dealer and layout that starts packing up early, it will easily be 50% fewer dealers/layouts the next year. Some other dealers will see a dying show that punishes dealers and next year they'll stay home, too. Do you think a small show will be back the next year after that? Most small train shows are barely holding on. I used to do 8 train shows a year just 5 years ago. Now it's down to 5 (a museum closed, a group retired, and a club disbanded). One show we do has their building for sale, so who knows how long that show will last. Another show location I have is a railroad club that we do twice a year, and they put the show tables in the layout room. They're going to commence filling in that layout room soon with more layout, and that would kill two more train shows. I can see that in only a couple years my train shows per year will be down to 2, and there aren't any new shows in range of me and the show crew. There are fewer and fewer dealers willing to do small train shows these days. Only the 2-day big shows will bring some of them out.
And yes, model railroad club operators leave early all the time. No, they don't leave the train in the middle of the mainline (any more than a dealer would leave their stuff in the exhibition hall), but pack up and leave early? Heck yeah, especially if the operators had some, shall we say, frustrations with the layout and/or trains (IOW, "rage quit").
Let me put it this way: as a dealer, I will stay set up for as along as I have customers. If I don't have any customers (not even browsers) for over an hour, then why am I the bad guy for going home? Can you promise me that you will come to my table a 3:59PM and spend enough money to make up for the nothing I just sat through?
You say you don't take too kindly to dealers that leave early. How about people that go to a train show and don't buy anything?
Lion,At every train show I do, I think admittance is free in the last hour. Heck, at my last show, the table where the tickets are taken was gone before 3PM.
Sir Madog,I hope you feel the same about customers. They bought admittance to the show, so they should also stay all day right to the end, right? If that was the case, every dealer would stay 'til the end, too. It's not like dealers are chasing away customers; the customers are chasing away the dealers by not staying/showing up. The dealers are not slapping the face of the customers; the customers are slapping the faces of the dealers.
Robert,There's no Catch-22. The crowds all leave well before any dealer packs up. No dealer will look at a busy show and say to himself, "Even tho' the hall is packed, I'm going to go home now." That simply won't happen. A dealer leaves because there are no customers. Period. You make money, you stay. You don't make money, you want to leave. And short of chaining us to the tables, that's going to happen.
Being the co-promoter of the huge Timonium MD show for over 30 years, I may be qualified to add to this thread. There is always a delicate balance between attendees and vendors. Although we cared quite a bit for the attendees, and tried to offer as much as possible, our first allegiance went to the vendors. Without them, the show simply dies. We were always aware of early packers, and yes we tried contracts to keep them to show closing, but on a slow Sunday and the crowds have gone south, we never pushed the issue. We just did not have the bargaining power, and we certainly understood the efforts they put in setting up and then the take-down.
We realized that our job as promoters besides managing a good show was to bring in the attendees, offer clinics, displays, operating railroads, fine food and with ample seating areas....and still more which we did for three decades. Having a conflict with a vendor is not much fun, so we avoided these whenever possible...which was most of the time. The show is about entertainment...for attendees, vendors, and staff. Still we ran it as a business, but enjoyed being light in many issues.
Anyone who goes to an event an hour before closing should expect folks beginning to pack, and although I feel his frustration....simply go earlier next time!!!
I may add a bit of advice to show promoters and to future promoters...........If you do not love, model trains, this business, and working with people of every possible spiecies, get out ASAP ! Forget about passing "GO" and the damn $200...just run!!!
HZ
Enzoamps I wonder if the club operating session is scheduled from 6 until 10, and I get bored after 8, I could just leave my train on the track and walk away.
Been there and done that during the week of the county fair..We arrived around 8:00am and by 4 PM I parked my train on a siding and called it a day while some stayed until the crowd thin out around 10 pm and then they called it a day and a lot of the food stands was already closed due to the lack of customers.The next morning we started over.After the first two hours I got sick and tired of watching trains run loops but,when there was only three that shows up every day then one does what he can to help.Some others showed up later in the morning or afternoon.
My club usually has one or two layouts at shows we attend. Whether it is in writting or implied, we keep trains running right up to the time the show closes. Sometimes we recieve a stipend from the promoter but we always have something running from the start to the finish even if we don't. I see vendors packing up early lots of times and it is always the same guys with prices right out of the Walthers catalog, not selling much. Greenberg had a couple of shows in my area with some vendors packed up and gone by 1pm on the first day. High table prices, no advertising by Greenberg shows and high entry prices kept the people away so the vendors just gave up.
I think enzoamps has it right. I expect vendors to be there until the show closes. I'm not getting my moneys worth if the vendors leave. What if you went to the movies and half way through, they shut the movie off because they weren't making enough at the concession stand? As someone who is paying for entertainment, (and I will consider a train show entertainment) that wouldn't be right. OTOH, since I am paying, I'll make the decision to walk out whenever I want (movie no good, I'm done being entertained), but the business did get my money and certainly will offer no refund.
As a vendor, I understand you are paying also, but, no one is forcing you to be there. You know how long the drive is and how long it will take to set up/tear down. Your costs are sunk no matter what sales are. I'm sure you don't get a rebate on your table for leaving early, and I'm pretty sure you aren't rushing back to your store to be open those last couple hours that you now 'gained' by leaving the show early.
Since this seeme to be quite the heated topic, letting someone in for free for the last hour makes a lot of sense.
If you are a serious buyer looking for specific items, you go early. While living in Dayton, Ohio, for about 8 years I set up at 6 to 8 shows a year, size from 40 tables to several hundred tables. The first few hours were always the busiest. This may be apples to oranges, but since moving to western Colorado my wife and I make and sell hand made soap at art and craft fairs and farmers markets. We also handle the vendors at two shows. Entry forms are very specific about early break downs. If a vendor breaks down early, many shoppers think the event is over and leave. This is unfair to the remaining sellers. Offenders will not be invited back.
I think enzoamps has it right. I expect vendors to be there until the show closes. I'm not getting my moneys worth if the vendors leave.
The guy arrived 1 hour before the show was scheduled to close. So how was he supposed to get "his money's worth" by paying for a full day, not to mention parking? There's an upcoming two day show in Pleasanton, CA. Adult ticket prices at the gate are $9 for a one day and $10 for both days. Parking is extra and by day (I forget the price and am not looking it up). You can buy discounted tickets up to 4 days before the show starts. http://trainshow.com/pleasanton/ . So, by your reasoning, if the OP goes to the Pleasanton show on the second day, arriving an hour before the show closes until the following year, pays for a day's worth of parking as well as a ticket, goes into the show to find vendors beginning to pack up, he should blame the vendors rather than kicking himself for not arriving earlier (maybe even just as the doors opened on the first day)?
What if you went to the movies and half way through, they shut the movie off because they weren't making enough at the concession stand.
That's a bogus comparison. The concession stand is a revenue generator wholly separate from the movie itself and does not generate revenue while the movie is in progress, but before the movie starts. When I go to a movie, the only revenue generated off me or my wife is the ticket itself. No doubt we should be barred from the theater altogether as we're not contributing enough to its bottom line. Oh wait a minute. Some revenue is better than none whatsoever.
As someone who is paying for entertainment, (and I will consider a train show entertainment) that wouldn't be right.
But you're OK with with the OP when he arrives towards the end of the movie (to use your analogy) and then gets all butthurt because the snack bar is closing up due to the fact that the last movie of the day is already in progress and the prospect of additional snack bar revenue is rapidly approaching zero, not to mention the fact that the snack bar's inventory may be seriously depleted? I mean, for crying out loud, if I wait until the absolute last minute to try and buy popcorn, it's their fault if it's not available any more, not mine for not thinking ahead, right?????
Andre
tommymr I think enzoamps has it right. I expect vendors to be there until the show closes. ... As a vendor, I understand you are paying also, but, no one is forcing you to be there...
I think enzoamps has it right. I expect vendors to be there until the show closes. ...
As a vendor, I understand you are paying also, but, no one is forcing you to be there...
Neither is anyone forcing you, the person arriving late, to be there.
tommymr ...Since this seeme to be quite the heated topic, letting someone in for free for the last hour makes a lot of sense.
...Since this seeme to be quite the heated topic, letting someone in for free for the last hour makes a lot of sense.
I see nothing heated about this...it's a perfectly civil discourse going on. Apart from that, if there were no displays or dealers left, I would agree that a patron should be admitted free of charge. I have never run a train show, but I would guess that the cost of renting the venue is not entirely covered by the fee charged to vendors; some of the patrons' proceeds would be needed for that purpose.
Vendors don't show up if the weather is bad where they are driving from. They also leave early when bad weather is approaching. These aren't mailmen. They don't have to risk their lives to honor a train show agreement. Vendors are free to come and go.
However, the sponsor of the show or the venue should waive an entrance fee once a certain number of vendors have left. And, if a vendor has a habit of busting out early, just because.....perhaps the sponsor should think twice about inviting him to the next show.
- Douglas
Most movie theatres are required to roll the projectors, even if the theatre is completely empty. If someone shows up 5 minutes after the film starts they can still see the rest of it. If they show up 70 minutes late, they still get to see how it ends. Because they paid to see it. That's a classy way to run a show.
If you want to please vendors want to pack up early because the first couple hours are the most lucrative, set the show hours from 10 'til noon.
I'm surprised that layout operators want to pack up early. Are they that bored? Wasn't model railroading supposed to be fun? And with all the complaints I hear about spouses who don't appreciate their hobby I would expect they wouldn't be in a rush to go home.
Barry