Barry
Hope to make it to your show in December.
Dave
I wish people would stop trying to compare this to a movie theatre. It's not even remotely the same. Remember: the dealers are paying to be there, too. There's no one at a theatre that is paying to be inside it except for the audience. There is no dealer analog in a movie theatre.
tommymr,A train show is not "entertainment", it is a retail business that is held to make a profit. Let's imagine what would happen if everyone that attended a train show didn't buy a thing from the dealers, just there to be entertained looking at everything. Do you think there'd be a train show the next year? Dealers aren't there to entertain you, they are there to sell you something. If you get entertainment from that, good. But it is not why they are there.
OTOH, a model railroad club open house is entertainment. They sell you a ticket and maybe some soda/coffee and that's about it. The looking at the layout is the purpose of the event. But a train show with dealers is no different from a retail shop with a cover charge at the door. They are there to sell, not to show you stuff.
BTW, did you see the irony in your own post? "OTOH, since I am paying, I'll make the decision to walk out whenever I want." The dealers feel the same way you do.
What do dealers get by leaving early? Maybe they pay their helpers by the hour. Maybe they'd like to go home and have dinner sometime before 8PM. Maybe they've got a date, or they have to wake up at 5AM every weekday and need the sleep. You're correct in that no one is forcing a dealer to be there...except you'd like to force them to be there until closing, right?
Barry,Again, there is an early-afternoon surge in business at most every train show I go to. That makes it worth being there for the dealers. There is no post-3PM surge at any train show that I've ever been to for the last 25 years. It's all a trickle by that point.
For the layouts, it takes some a long time to clean up and break down. And running trains can get old. I know it's hard to imagine, but some people get tired after 4 or 5 hours of running trains.
Enzoamps So does anyone share my frustration at this, its it common? or do I just have unrealistic expectations.I have attended this show in several years past, and while any show might have a few early closers, I don;t recall it being this blatant before.
So does anyone share my frustration at this, its it common? or do I just have unrealistic expectations.I have attended this show in several years past, and while any show might have a few early closers, I don;t recall it being this blatant before.
davidmurray Hope to make it to your show in December. Dave
I hope to see you there (even though it's not my show). I'll be bringing a layout and it will be operating until the doors close! :)
Paul3 tommymr,A train show is not "entertainment", it is a retail business that is held to make a profit.
tommymr,A train show is not "entertainment", it is a retail business that is held to make a profit.
Hold the phone. Why do train shows pay modular clubs to bring layouts and run trains? Could it be .... drum roll, entertainment? Why yes. So there is something to be said for both sides. People do pay to get in, and they don't pay only to go browse table (which may be slightly entertaining) but to go watch trains too. Thats part of the reason I go to Timonium which appears to dedicate maybe a third of their space to some rather large layouts.
Sure, the show runners would not run the show if there wasn't a least some profit in it; certainly they aren't going to keep running a show that loose money so it's gotta be in the black most of the time.
Obviously the dealers are there to make money and it's not good for a show when that doesn't happen, and I'm certain I've seen some glum dealers at many a show over the past 30+ years I've been going to them, since I started attending shows way back in Houston TX in the early 1980's, and later Indiana, Kentucky, New York and Virginia.
So we've established large train shows are there to both sell you stuff and show you stuff (operating layouts). So both are true for most shows I've been to.
Maybe HZ can chime in here but I thought I recalled at his shows, dealers were expected to stay open until the official show closing, probably because he viewed it as - yes, the show was advertised to be open from A to B, and customers paid money to get in and should be able to browse the tables for the advertised time.
I mean, sure, you could say nothing is certain except death and taxes, and as a customer I would say - I've been burned by dealers closing as early as 2:30 pm at one show and just go to the Saturday show when most are there Sat and Sun and usually will be their till closing on Sat at least. Or if I have to go Sun, go early while the gettin is good.
I've run some trains at shows and you do get tired. It's enough of a grind going to shows - being there all day both days - no thanks. But there are a lot of past times that are not for me.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
riogrande5761I've run some trains at shows and you do get tired. It's enough of a grind going to shows - being there all day both days - no thanks. But there are a lot of past times that are not for me.
Jim,Now imagine a man like me that gets bored to tears after the first two hours of mindless loop running 4 or 5 hours can be a pure torture.
Why put myself through that? Somebody has to step up to the plate and help simply because many find excuses why they can't or maybe they can't let go of their wife's hand long enough to help three or four hours once a year..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
HZ here....As mentioned, we once required vendors when they signed up, they also commited themselves to stay until show closing for both days. And yes we had attendees come one hour prior to closing, and two hours prior to closing we went to half price, and should some arrive an hour to maybe 30 minutes prior to closing, we let them in free.
When a vendor starts packing up early, others follow in suit and then some. Our show on the second day usually emptied out around 3PM, and although we required vendors to stay until closing at 4PM, we never pushed the issue as mentioned, we just did not have the bargaining power and it was not fair to ask them to play to an empty hall. Now on Saturday or the first day of the show, we never had a problem....actually the real issue was getting attendees out of the hall so we could go home and take our Saturday evening baths.
One thing that helped was having a real large door prize drawing late in the day. The new owners have continued with this...only upping the prize quite a bit.
Another important issue to keep folks in the halls longer is to have great food service at reasonable prices and more than ample seating for folks to enjoy their fine cusine. The Timonium show is doing great under the new management since 2014.....matter of fact, under Scott Geare, I feel it has improved greatly since my day..............but there is one problem...food service. Due to possibly behind the scenes skull duggery by the venue, the once really great caterer is gone and has been replaced by the caterer from hell. Since this change in late 2014, many attendees have not been staying for lunch, and rarely return should they go out for chow at noon. The attendance has not been affected, but the staying power most definitely has. If you are planning on attending future shows, just bring a simple small cooler with lunch or order out ( the staff will call when order arrives). To see the show takes the better part of the day, and to walk it once is 1.2 miles. In all fairness, the review on the new caterer is my opinion,and from what I have observed and heard from others. I'm sure there are folks who love the new food service and pricing.
Also the new management has been running clinics all day....and by very excellent clinicians. This has proven quite effective in keeping folks until closing.
I completely stick to the issue, the show is about entertainment...over 20 operating layouts in most scales, great clinics, and meeting other train nuts????
Folks go to hobby shops and train shows to purchase....is not that entertainment?? Man, it sure is for me............has been for 70+ years!
Train shows today are becoming our last ambassadors for promoting our hobby first hand as the LHS is rapidally earning a place in American folklore and history.
Let's do our best to keep them alive.
HZ
Hoo boy, this reminds me of my bad old days as a dealer at wargaming shows. After five years of that I left the hobby for 15 years.
And don't forget, this may be "your train show" but the poor son of a ***** behind the table does two shows a month from March to November and between gas and food barely breaks even most of the time.My GOD I hated working retail.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Paul3 What do dealers get by leaving early? Maybe they pay their helpers by the hour. Maybe they'd like to go home and have dinner sometime before 8PM. Maybe they've got a date, or they have to wake up at 5AM every weekday and need the sleep. You're correct in that no one is forcing a dealer to be there...except you'd like to force them to be there until closing, right?
Don't forget "this is the tenth show this summer, and I'm so tired of packing and carrying this **** that I'm seriously considering paying somebody to take it away."Just like at a multi-day show like the NMRA convention train show, you can get great deals on the last day. "PLEASE don't make me pack this up, carry it across the convention center, down the stairs to the service dock, three blocks to my van at the back of the parking lot, and it's raining."
You know what I think?
If a club has gone to the considerable effort to put on a show at which you will make a profit then you as a vendor have an obligation to stick it out until the end. Yes, dinner will be late. Dinner will also be late for all of the club members who have to pack up the tables and chairs, and most likely a portable layout too. I think the show organizers should levy a significant fee for packing up early, refundable if you stay until the end.
My club puts on a fairly large show (by Canadian standards) every year. There are only 14 members. That equates to a lot of hard work for everybody.
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Bayfield Transfer RailwayAnd don't forget, this may be "your train show" but the poor son of a ***** behind the table does two shows a month from March to November and between gas and food barely breaks even most of the time.
Sounds like you was part time..I know dealers that goes to shows every weekend and that means they must book a motel/hotel room, drive xxx miles to get there,set up and hope to make a profit in the process.
I have notice these guys knows each other and seems to lookout for one another as far as finding things.
Dealer A: Billybob,You still looking for two Athearn grey Guliford boxcars?
Dealer B,Yes,Johnboy,Whatcha got for me?
Some times I notice they trade for needed items other times cash is used.
I can fully understand the reason they pack up early when there is very few buying customers on the floor. They been there several hours-usually 3-4 hours before the doors open.
One thing I can't stand is a show runner that rushes through the show in less then 30 minutes then complains about how bad the show was. I know a guy that does that and when he sees me at either Hardees or McDonalds he tells me all about it. I was eating lunch during our show and he was in/out before I finished my coffee. He waltz in around noon and rushed through the show.
OTOH I realize some folk don't like being in crowds and I understand that but,why wait until the last hour of the show? The opening mob is in/out in the first two hours. I recommend going around noon since there seems to be a lull between 12-1 pm or at least at the shows I attend-I usually rest and eat my standard train show lunch(2 hotdogs,apple pie and coffee) then make one last walk though to ensure I haven't missed any goodies or if a dealer broke open another box of goodies..The small one or two table dealers is good at doing this.
Howard ZaneIn all fairness, the review on the new caterer is my opinion,and from what I have observed and heard from others. I'm sure there are folks who love the new food service and pricing.
I'm only recently back into the hobby so I can't compare to the old days, but compared to gun show food or airport food, I was pleasantly surprised at the food at the last 2 Timonium shows. I could eat cheaper if I hoofed it to McDonalds but there wasn't any sticker shock like there is eating at Camden Yards or Ravens Stadium.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
What I have always wondered is; Is it generally acceptable to pack up early IF and ONLY IF you sell your entire merchandise for the day?
(My Model Railroad, My Rules)
These are the opinions of an under 35 , from the east end of, and modeling, the same section of the Wheeling and Lake Erie railway. As well as a freelanced road (Austinville and Dynamite City railroad).
While we all like it when the world works exactly how WE think it should, as the differing views on this matter demonstrate, humans vary and so do their behavior. Nothing wrong with that and, I suspect, nothing much that can be done about it for those who think, umm, something should be done about it. Enjoy the variety, the world would be a boring place and the lines always long if we all showed up for lunch at exactly the same time and ordered exactly the same thing to eat.
I will say that if you willing to pay for admission at the end of the show for what will surely be the leftovers from hours of previous patronage, you can probably stand to be a little flexible about the fact that you've probably missed more by not getting there earlier than you do from the vendors who leave early.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
riogrande5761,The portable layouts are entertainment, yes. The show itself (and every dealer there) is not. Do you think there would be a train show without any dealers? Do you think there'd be any dealers if every attendee left their wallet at home? I've been to train shows without any layouts. I've never been to a train show without any dealers (and club open houses do not count).
I will add that if a layout is paid to be entertainment for the duration of the show (and I think paying a layout to be there is a crock), then yes, they should be there until closing. However, dealers do not get paid to be there. Instead, we pay $25-$100+ per table. If we dealers were paid to be at the show as entertainment for the masses, then yes, we'd stay set up until closing...but we do not get paid by the show.
A show has got to be in the black "most of the time"? Try all of the time. It's not a charity. If it doesn't make money, it will change quickly or die. But even a small show makes money unless a snow storm keeps everyone home. The dealers never get a refund, so the show always gets their table fees upfront. A 100-table show will see at least $2500 income just for that. Get a 1000 people through the door at $4 a head, and you're talking another $4000. Out of that $6500, you have the hall rental (unless the show org already owns it) and table rental (unless the show already owns them), but otherwise it's usually profit.
HZ,I have to disagree, it is not "entertainment" for a hobby shop or a dealer. It's a business, a retail business. No retail business will be in business for long when they are merely entertainment for the public. People come in to retail shop, look around, and say, "What a wonderful store!" Then they leave without buying anything. Next thing you know, that same person opines, "What ever happened to that wonderful store?"
Michael,You got it.
hon30critter,Good luck with that. Let us know how many dealers will ever do a small show that puts a significant fine/fee on their dealers for leaving early. You want to have dealers stay 'til the end? Refund the table rentals, or maybe even just one table rental. Give the dealers a bonus for staying; don't punish them for leaving early or they'll never come back again.
mlehman ... I will say that if you willing to pay for admission at the end of the show ...
...
I will say that if you willing to pay for admission at the end of the show ...
And further, if you expect to only have to pay a fraction of the general admittance fee near noon on the last day....ditto. If Howard's crew lets you in for free in the last hour, double ditto....you get watcha paid fer.
Paul3 riogrande5761,The portable layouts are entertainment, yes. The show itself (and every dealer there) is not. Do you think there would be a train show without any dealers?
riogrande5761,The portable layouts are entertainment, yes. The show itself (and every dealer there) is not. Do you think there would be a train show without any dealers?
Obviously no.
Do you think there'd be any dealers if every attendee left their wallet at home?
Thats an absurd retorical question. If every attendee left there wallet at home, there would be no attendee's at the train show - they wouldn't be admitted. Dealers choose to go to shows based on the long term financial benefit - common sense. Some show are duds and some maybe decent for them. I wouldn't want to do that, but there are a lot of occupations I wouldn't want to do.
I've been to train shows without any layouts. I've never been to a train show without any dealers (and club open houses do not count).
They exist, I've actually stumbled into one or two over the last 10 years. I don't think I found anything to buy. Lets just say those shows are pretty much "out of scope" of this conversation IMO, but enjoy yourself.
I will add that if a layout is paid to be entertainment for the duration of the show (and I think paying a layout to be there is a crock),
I've been told by the clubs that come, they are paid - it's nominal but they do get paid. And they should be. It's a lot of work and yes, some expense to haul these layouts in, set them up and man them for two days. And it's a draw to get people to come. The show benefits, the attendee's benefit.
A show has got to be in the black "most of the time"? Try all of the time.
I said most of the time because thats probably factual. There are occasionally shows that are a bust - such as when a big snow storm hits Baltimore and hardly anyone can get there - probably those "one off" shows like that do lose money. I remember a Timonium show withing the last couple years which exactly that happened to. I'm sure people who have run shows can tell you occasionally they are up-side-down, but those are probably "one-offs".
HZ,I have to disagree, it is not "entertainment" for a hobby shop or a dealer.
It isn not suppose to be. SMH. The whole topic is from the customers perspective.
Not entertainment???? Horse Poop!!! We ran the Timonium show for over 30 years with almost the same staff for the duration. All of us had other things we could have done...and for lots more pay, but I can honsestly say for myself and dozen staff folks, we all looked forward to the shows and yes indeed all aspects were about entertainment. Some helpers would not take pay, but we did insist that all would be paid equally and fairly. Ask the new management about the fun factor, and they will concur immediately.
Occasionall we had to deal with idiots, but we were ready as we all knew about factor A...."In a given number of people, there is usually going to be one who is an a..hole"...and we were ready! but these encounters were rare indeed. In my 30+ years with the show, the number of "whatevers" can be counted on the fingers of one hand. Not so in my other careers! Dealing with the truly wonderful folks who attended the shows over the decades....entertainment?? You betcha!!!
Some asked why we sold.....simple age (78) and Ken my partner moving to Arizona. He would have been impossible to replace as he was the brains behind the shows....I was just better known for my model railroad and great personality.
No beef. The train show this weekend has a "Thanksgiving Dinner Wrap" with turkey, mashed potato and cranberry sauce with gravy on a big tortilla wrap. Yummy.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I agree that analogies break down, like the movie, but the point was simply that if you went someplace commercial or even social, and it closed early, I would think most of us were disappointed. I am sure there are better examples.
Vendors paid for tables up front, so unless they pay salesmen by the hour, their expense does not rise by staying. Also, the idea of "late". I did not arrive late, I came near the end of the show. LAte is after it closes. A vendor who leaves at the end even if there were no sales the last two hours is not leaving late, he is just leaving.
I go to the show to see what sorts of things are on sale, and to see the display layouts. I am not going to buy a LEGO layout, but it was fun to see one. Likewize the tiny Z scale setup. I enjoy having conversations with the people there. I would think the club demonstration layouts with that boring continuous running were there as ambassadors for the hobby. It sure would get boring if all you did was watch the train ride around, but I'd think engaging the crowd would be the main activity. I talked to some nice folks in my hour there. If I were going to yard sales hoping to find a vintage guitar, sure I go first thing in the morning. If my plan was to get lots of deals on stuff, I'd go to this in the morning. But as to going earlier, yes that makes the entire discussion moot, but I went while it was open, spent the $6 to get in. I kinda expected things to be ther, even if picked over. I was never going to buy the old Lionel stuff, but I sure enjoyed seeing it all. I had a Lionel set 65 years ago, and saw a few things I had but have forgotten. Working cattle car, missile boxcar, even the light tower. And the big two-lever powr pack I always wanted but never got - they had them. SO I guess I am not a customer to that vendor, but I suspect the guys buying Lionel also enjoyed seeing the other scales too.
I am sure it can be real boring doing retail. In my industry I have to answer the same questions over and over and over too. But we knew that going in. And in my industry I do shows too, and the last one I did, my table was displayed until the close, and indeed I made some sales in the last closing minutes.
riogrande5761,It's not so obvious. Apparently, some think that train show dealers are there to entertain the masses like we're showing a movie, not to make money.
Sigh. No, I wasn't being literal with the "left their wallets at home". In retail, that's a saying for customers that don't buy anything. So let me rephrase my question: Do you think there'd be any dealers if every attendee did not buy anyting other than a ticket? Specifically, do you think there'd be any dealers at next year's show if that happened?
Dealers go to train shows for short-term finanical benefit. There is no real long term financial benefit unless it is to advertise their brick & mortar shop (and many dealers don't have one of those).
You've actually been to a non-open house train show with no dealers?
As for paying portable layouts to come to a show, I still think it's a crock. They should get free display space and all the free tickets they want; they should be able to put out donation jars, solicit new members, and have free run of the show, etc. Heck, I'd even let them sell club cars. But paying them to be there? Sorry, but no. For some, the only time they can even use their modules is when they're at a show and they want to get paid, too?
The space taken up by layouts equals several hundred dollars worth of dealer tables. I think a fair trade off for the show is in losing several hundred dollars worth of dealer table rental income, they get to have the layouts there instead. But to pay the layouts in addition to losing the dealer table fees? Ouch. Again, sorry, but no. I've done a portable layout at a train show or two for my club and no one ever paid us to be there.
Yes, the customer's perspective. A customer is someone who spends money for goods or services. Well, my contention is that dealers are customers, too.
Howard ZaneNot entertainment???? Horse Poop!!! We ran the Timonium show for over 30 years with almost the same staff for the duration. All of us had other things we could have done...and for lots more pay, but I can honsestly say for myself and dozen staff folks, we all looked forward to the shows and yes indeed all aspects were about entertainment. Some helpers would not take pay, but we did insist that all would be paid equally and fairly. Ask the new management about the fun factor, and they will concur immediately
Its not entertainment since there is tons of work involved from the unpaid club members that sets the show up the night before and helps the dealers bring in their goodies..Its a make or break living for the dealers.As one dealer told years ago" If you do good you and your family will have steak if not,break out the baloney sandwiches"..
We attendees can make or break a show. We don't need you,you need us your customer.
There's no entertainment when the show starts in the red column since extra tables, chairs,building rent had to be paid from the start. I doubt if the dealers sees any entertainment since they to are starting in the red column since tables are paid for in advance.
I see no entertainment when I pay to park and then pay to get in..I see no entertainment when a expert wanna be give a error filled clinic about something he may not fully understand...
I give up....I don't care much what other folks think entertainment is.....for me and my staff it was and still is. I'm otta here!!!
I have helped out with many shows for two different clubs on the East Coast.
I don't know what I'd call it, but after all the work was done at last we all plopped down and congratulated each other on a great show. Yes, it was a lot of work, but definitely worthwhile.
Also, this year I covered the State Fair and a big flea market for the local paper. You better believe the sellers start packing up around 2:30.
Howard Zane I give up....I don't care much what other folks think entertainment is.....for me and my staff it was and still is. I'm otta here!!!
Depending on your staff work load or if they stand around and watch.I've seen it both ways.Management always have more fun then the workers getting things done or dealers that's trying to make a buck or two in the process.
Now if a dealer is already down $150.00 for his table plus his travel,lodging(if needed) and food expenses I doubt if he seeing any entertainment.
I rented a table once for a one day show that ran to 4pm. the morning was great alot of sales and mostly thru the day but sales markedly fell off and people looking as well in the afternoon from 2 on. the last hour was dead. Other sellers started packing up early as well so it was easy to see why. A prior post mentioned deal time, I didn't see much off that going on either.
nw2A prior post mentioned deal time, I didn't see much off that going on either.
A lot of dealers will deal throughout the day but,if they are having a poor day and are still "hungry" close to closing then they will deal. I doubt if they will announce they just discounted a new or used item.
The horse trading between dealers usually goes on well before the doors open.
I have had dealers to remember me and ask if I was still looking for a Athearn Bay Colony boxcar and if you are,I have one.
Train show beef. If it's anything like gas station sushi, we're all in trouble.
I'm not going to post the link, but if you Google "gas station sushi" and click on the heading "Gas Station Sushi - Reimagined The Correct Way" you'll see what I mean. I've still got tears of laughter pouring down my cheeks.
I think even Steven Otte will laugh as he finally puts me on the PKPNG (Permanent Kalmbach Persona Non Grata) list.
As for train shows, here's a thought. Go earlier. Just don't stop at a gas station for sushi.
Andre
The first thought that came to me was how long a drive some of these vendors have to get home. I was talking to a local vendor here in Massachusetts. The next weekend, he and his wife were hauling a trailer to Timonium for a show.
It's a long trip. If you're not making anything the last hour of the show, it's probably better to pack up and get on the road while there's still a bit of daylight, particularly if you won't be home until midnight.
Paul3You've actually been to a non-open house train show with no dealers?
Hartford, CT. 1st year there were some vendors of marginal quality (some not selling model rr stuff), attendance was good. 2nd year good vendors, attendance was terrible (good weather, not well advertised, previous year no vendors). This year: no vendors, low attendance. No sure if there will be a next year but my club will go if there is.
Paul3As for paying portable layouts to come to a show, I still think it's a crock. They should get free display space and all the free tickets they want; they should be able to put out donation jars, solicit new members, and have free run of the show, etc. Heck, I'd even let them sell club cars. But paying them to be there? Sorry, but no. For some, the only time they can even use their modules is when they're at a show and they want to get paid, too?
My club has been offered payment for some shows. We refuse payment. We don't get paid for Springfield. Display layouts don't directly make money for the show promoter. They loose money. They are necessary to get people through the door, something for the kids to look at while the other parent shops for Christmas presents for the kids... or self presents.
We absolutely start breaking down our layout before shows end. The trains continue to run (min 2 each main line), but things like skirting around the layout and some of the detachable buildings start getting pulled. Why? Because we only have x amount of time to get out of the building at the end of the show. It takes a while to tear down and pack up a large layout carefully. Vendors abosulutely start packing up in the last half hour. They may not pack everything, but they kind of have to start. Again, you generally have x amount of time to get out of the building. And the vendor tables are preventing the layout people from getting their vehicles in to load up their layouts. Most layout display people have day jobs. Some of us have to work at 530am the next morning.
Generally my experience with train shows has been, if you are looking for something specific that they have, they will at least get it out to make a sale.
An hour before the end, that is excessive. 30min before the end with little or no customer traffic in the last half hour at a poorly attended small show, I would not expect to see any vendor not at least starting to pack.
Edit :
Paul3 For the layouts, it takes some a long time to clean up and break down. And running trains can get old. I know it's hard to imagine, but some people get tired after 4 or 5 hours of running trains.
Not just running trains, but following your train around a 70x40 layout for 8hrs of the show (for a two day), walking on concrete, etc. It wears out even the young guys at the shows, not to mention the senior members of the club.