--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
oldline1 OUTRAGE? What about McDonalds? A restaurant founded on selling cheap hamburgers but try to buy one before 11AM. They'll sell breakfast 24/7/365 but hamburgers are not allowed to be sold anytime. Sucks when you work graveyard shift and want one when you get off work at 7AM. They act like you're crazy for asking. Just my 2¢ to this silly discussion. Roger Huber
OUTRAGE? What about McDonalds? A restaurant founded on selling cheap hamburgers but try to buy one before 11AM. They'll sell breakfast 24/7/365 but hamburgers are not allowed to be sold anytime. Sucks when you work graveyard shift and want one when you get off work at 7AM. They act like you're crazy for asking.
Just my 2¢ to this silly discussion.
Roger Huber
Julian
Modeling Pre-WP merger UP (1974-81)
andrechapelonAnd finally, because it's just as much an outrage for vendors to start packing up inventory before the doors close as it is for Lori's Cafe on Route 3 in Liberty, ME, to refuse to provide waffles after 11 AM even though they serve breakfast all day.
Lori must be related to those folk that operates our local bake shop-if you are wanting any donuts be there before 10AM because they don't sell them after that time. If you want donuts after that time then go to Kroger or to our new Tim Horton's.
So,go early to get bakery fresh donuts or head for Horton's or Kroger if you're a late starter.
My neighbor isn't allow to eat any unhealthy foods because his wife is a health food nut so,when she heads out to school (she's a teacher),he heads out to the closest junk food place. Dunno what he will do when she retires after this school year.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Well, at least you didn't waffle before 11:00 am
True. As for the poached eggs, there's a nice restaurant in Roma Termini https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma_Termini_railway_station where they serve superb Eggs Benedict. After all, everybody knows that there's no place like Rome for the hollandaise.
Andre
Well, at least you didn't waffle before 11:00 am.
CG
Let's face the facts..Why not attend the show early?
<sarcastic rant> Because they want to attend the show when they darned well please and still have everything just as fresh and attractive as when the doors initially opened. Because ALL the vendors should be required to keep everything that hasn't been subject to prior sale out until the doors actually close, even if the vendors outnumber non vendor attendees by a large margin. Because the vendors have a MORAL obligation to cater to the Johnny-come-latelies on the off chance that, in a field of 75-100 vendors, one or two of them might actually make a last minute sale, even if it's only $3.50. Because it's all about what's convenient for the late attendee because the late attendee is king and, at least according to Mel Brooks, "It's good to be the king" (History of the World, Part One).
And finally, because it's just as much an outrage for vendors to start packing up inventory before the doors close as it is for Lori's Cafe on Route 3 in Liberty, ME, to refuse to provide waffles after 11 AM even though they serve breakfast all day. I want waffles when I want waffles and Lori's admant refusal to accommodate my demands is an outrage of the highest order. Of course, Lori's won't poach eggs after 11 AM, either, but the poached egg crowd is mentally unbalanced by definition.
</sarcastic rant>
Milepost 266.2Either that or charge them when they leave. If they pack up at noon, charge 'em $40 a table. if they don't lift a finger to pack up till 4:00, ten bucks.
Do you know these dealers has been at the show 3-4 hours before the doors open? Why stay if there is no sales after 3 pm and 3 or 4 attendees walking around not buying and nobody walk through the doors in the last hour??
Let's face the facts..Why not attend the show early? All that requires is getting up and going..Cutting grass or holding your wife's hand can wait upon your return.Who knows she may even enjoy the time you're gone doing whatever she likes..
So I just did my last train show of 2016, a large 2-day train show. We stayed there until closing on Saturday (5PM), and then yesterday we started packing up at 3:35PM (the show closed at 4PM on Sun.). My last sale before starting to pack was around 3PM. The ticket taker table at the entrance to the show was empty (indicating free admittance) before 3PM (probably 2:30PM).
I did have one more sale after we started to pack. It was for $12 and it occured at 4:05PM. Since the cash register is one of the last things to get boxed, I was able to ring him up and make change. We were out of there by 4:30PM. We had a great weekend; easily the best show we do every year.
I did see one dealer leave very early, like around 2PM in fact. But it was only one out of many. The rest of the dealers stayed set up through 3PM, then still making a few sales but wrapping up some of the more delicate items and boxing them. By 3:30PM, packing up was started for most of the show. At this time, dealers outnumbered attendees.
Generally speaking, if you came to the show by 2:45PM or so, you got in for free and had about 45 minutes to shop around the vast majority of the dealers. Sure, a few were really early packers, but considering you weren't paying to get into the show by that point, what does one expect?
jwar41,Yeah, some customers come from further away than a lucky dealer that happens to live next door to the venue, but I doubt that is the case on average. Dealers tend to have a larger range for going to train shows vs. attendees. For example, one of the big dealers at this weekend's show here in Massachusetts lives in Kentucky. That's only 1000 miles away. I doubt too many attendees came from futher away than that. I mean it's a good show, but it's not Springfield or Trainfest or Timonium or the NMRA National.
Milepost 266.2,I still think going around at the end of the show with a bunch of $20 bills would be the best method for keeping dealers in place. $20 per dealer at the end of the show would be a partial refund for the tables. It's gas or dinner money for the trip home. It would make most dealers happy to be there late. Charging them for leaving early, even if it equals the same amount of money, would not result in happy dealers.
Paul3 Seriously, if you want dealers to stay at a small show until the end, discount some of their table fees. Most of them would probably stay for one free table at the show they are at (rather than for next year).
Seriously, if you want dealers to stay at a small show until the end, discount some of their table fees. Most of them would probably stay for one free table at the show they are at (rather than for next year).
Either that or charge them when they leave. If they pack up at noon, charge 'em $40 a table. if they don't lift a finger to pack up till 4:00, ten bucks.
Anytime I pay to get into an event, could care what it is and its open for 6 hours or so, it should be available for those hours promist in the advertising. These vendors cry that they have to drive home, well Mr Vendor some customer drive from towns perhaps further then you...also people work, to plan to get off work eary then have everyone packing up is a slap in the face to the customer who just paid to get in. I quit going to shows for this reason
The show here in Lansing is over 500 tables. In the grand scheme of things I don't know if that is large small or in the middle. They are only asking $22 a table in advance, and only $27 a table in the last month before the show. Sounds dirt cheap to me. I pay more for a table in another industry. So there is the context for the vendor.
The vendors pay, the customers pay, the promotor pays. Everyone pays to be there.
Any analogy breaks down if pushed, so movies, or a Sears store, or whatever won't be EXACTLY the same.
As an old guy who dines cheap, when I went to the local buffet place, they not only kept all the cafeteria tables full and open until the doors closed at 9PM or whenever, they even kept the food out a full half hour after the doors closed. Come in at 8:59, you can still eat the full menu. Across town was a Chinese buffet I liked the food at, open until 10PM. But after about 8PM, they let the steam tables get empty, and food they might have replaced earlier in the day would be left out getting dry. So we never patronize them in the evening. Plenty of restaurants have hours in their ads that say "Kitchen open until 9PM." Problem solved. I don't care if they close at 9:30 or 10:30, I know when the food stops.
So how about this: ask your vendors to remain at least until time X, then advertise it. "Open 10AM to 4PM, vendors open until at least 3PM." That way guys like me who are not worldly enough will know there is no point attending the last hour.
Most movie theatres are required to roll the projectors, even if the theatre is completely empty. If someone shows up 5 minutes after the film starts they can still see the rest of it. If they show up 70 minutes late, they still get to see how it ends. Because they paid to see it. That's a classy way to run a show.
No we were not required to run it. especially the last show of the night. Box office closed 15 mins after show time, if no one bought a ticket we did not show it. If someone showed up right before box closed I would splice out the previews and run the show when the person got in the auditorium the show would then get out early.
during the day we ran everything, but there is no requirement.
Andre,I recommended to Jason Shron of Rapido that he should sell trains out of his new bus like an ice cream truck. He thought it was an interesting idea..
Well, if you want to go along with the ice cream truck idea, I have an idea what kind of tune it could play to attract customers. I'm more inclined toward the Fuller Brush Man (or Walthers Train Man if you will) door to door idea. Commission only.
It's a variation of the old Dinah Shore song "Shoo Fly Pie And Apple Pan Dowdy". Unfortunately, only a small segment of the lyrics will pass muster by the powers that be. The rest of it, not so much.
Train show beef and gas station sushi
Makes your stomach churn and your intestines get gushy
The last time I was at a train show, I didn't bother with the gas station sushi. As it was, the train show beef (in the form of a burger) was quite sufficient to do the job.
Paul3Yep, that plate is the one! What are the round ones? Are they tank ends?
Yes. I call them "domes" to cover a bunch of uses.
Made from Coke can ends.
Must be nice to have so many dealer overrun train shows so close in proximity. Why else would so many people complain about them? I'd settle for just one.
maxman,Yep, that plate is the one! What are the round ones? Are they tank ends?
Enzoamps,I worked 25 years in my family's independant bookstore. We never closed early (or opened late) unless it was an emergency: family, weather, medical, car crashing into the store, etc. When we saw we had slow hours or slow days, we'd change the times on the door. But a set-up retail business is not a train show. The retail business doesn't have to be packed up and carried away before one goes home hundreds of miles away.
However, if you think even retail businesses don't "pack up early", go to a small restaurant/deli and ask for hot food 30 min. before their closing time. At my local deli, they close the kitchen about an hour before they lock the doors, spending that time cleaning the grill, etc. Sure, you can still get a bagel 15 min. before they close, but don't ask for a grilled cheese because the grill is cold and cleaned.
7j43k,I agree that as long as what is advertised is present at the train show, then there is no violation of any contract. But if the only thing advertised is that it is a "train show" open during certain hours, a Brio train set would qualify. It would be on the level of a P.T. Barnum flimflammery, but it would be legal.
As for taking a promoter to court over dealers packing up early... Hey, anything is possible. I'm sure one could be sued for breathing these days.
If a promoter closed a busy show early, I'm sure dealers would complain. They aren't getting paid to be there; instead the dealers are paying, remember? But the result would be easy to predict: no dealers the next year. Dealers do talk to one another and if it got out that a promoter was messing around with their dealers, there would be few if any dealers there next year.
bing&kathy,But you'd like to put a gun to our heads and force us to stay until we're allowed to leave, right? Again, most of the show contracts I sign say nothing about packing up early. Still, if you did force a dealer to stay, or punish them for packing up early by not inviting them next year, how long do you think you'd have a show? Again, this is about small shows. Big shows like Springfield have a multi-year waiting list for dealers; dealers will not make waves there because they make a lot of money at that show. But small shows are dying off. There are fewer and fewer dealers willing to make a trip to a small train show these days. As such, dealers have much more leeway.
However, the sign idea? Um, no. Again, dealers do talk to each other. If one that stayed told one that left early that the promoter was bad mouthing them, do you honestly think they'd be back the next year? I doubt it.
Ya know, if you were well-off and wanted to proselytize (had to look that one up--only got two letters wrong), it would be both productive and useful to do the above mentioned food-truck conversion.
The mental picture of Mikey's Train Emporium parked in a string of Mexican, Tai, and etc. trucks is surely amusing.
And it would surely reach more newbies than a brick and mortar.
Ed
bing&kathyXYZ exhibitor has left early. Deciding that they do not need your money! Please do NOT look for them next year.
Or better..
XYZ exhibitor waited all day for you to show..He figured you was a no show and decided to call it a day. He hopes to see you next year.
..
Sorry..Couldn't let that one side.To funny.
Convert Food Trucks or any vehicle to moble train stores!!!!!
Hahaha Good One!!!
Hey DAD!!! The Athearn guy is at the door, wants to talk to you.
Thanks again for further responses. If I perceived this as a problem to solve, sure, I could be there when it opened. And if I were looking at this as snapping up that rare Pacific Fast MAil loco I drooled over 60 years ago before anyone else sees it, same approach. I visit shows like this looking for odd things I didn't know existed, or old things I am glad to see still exist. And books about the B&O. I like the club layouts to see if anything new is happening. (Still not sold on sound) I had an interesting chat with a member hovering around their traction layout with operating catenary. For me it is a liesurely activity. My career was in entertainment - show biz. And I spent most of my adult life up late. My technical services company was open for business until 2AM. I don;t often feel like getting up early enough to be 15 miles away by 10AM. This past show for example, I was doing things around the apartment when I reailzed the time, and said "I can still get in an hour of the show" and went. The show had over 500 tables, and that is more walking than I can do in one shot anyway - I am good for an hour.
My mom was a regular customer of the Fuller Brush man. And the Avon lady...
The Athearn guy never came down our street. Or Varney...
Yeah, absolutely do that. And then sit around two years later with your thumb up your butt wondering where all the dealers went.
Well, there was that HA Smith cartoon in MR many years ago (60's, IIRC) wherein a shady individual in a trench coat in an alley was accosting strangers with the line, "Pssst, hey buddy, wanna buy a hot Mikado?". Of course, that is so 20th Century and all, but what the heck? Everything old can be new again. The advantage for the dealer is that no one charges for alley space and you can pick your own hours.
Here's another idea. Convert old food trucks to mobile train stores. Would also work with old bookmobiles, mobile blood banks, motorhomes, etc. Actually, if it looks like a motorhome, you could always use a Wal-Mart parking lot.
Resurrecting more old ideas, back when I was a kid, there was the weekly visit of the Helms bakery man who sold all kinds of baked goods from a truck. Why not trains? Then there was the Fuller Brush man who went door to door selling grooming products.....
Good times.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Another thing to do is for the dealers that leave early, place a card on their table stating:
XYZ exhibitor has left early. Deciding that they do not need your money! Please do NOT look for them next year.
Or something of this ilk for customers to know why the spot is empty.
God's Best & Happy Rails to You!
Bing (RIPRR The Route of the Buzzards)
The future: Dead Rail Society
Paul3 Enzoamps,I have been a train show dealer for 25 years; as such I have been to hundreds of train shows. In this market of train show retail, it's all about the economics. Most small train shows need all the dealers they can find to make a good profit. Without dealers, there's no show. In this kind of small show market, the show won't threaten to disinvite a dealer over packing up early (especially if it's really slow). The dealer will simply leave whenever they want, and next year they'll be back, no questions asked. At a big show, or at the biggest show (Springfield), there's actually a long waiting list for dealers to get into the show. No dealer at Springfield wants to jeopordize their table space by leaving early because it can take years on the waiting list to get in. The Springfield Show reminds dealers that all tables are to remain open for the entire show, that leaving early can result in a disinvite for next year and a return to the waiting list. Dealers comply because the show is such a money maker for every dealer that they'd be foolish to risk it (I know one dealer who told me that Springfield was 30% of his annual train show income). Do I pack up early at small shows? Yep, but then we usually hold off until the last 30 min. or so even when it's dead. Packing up a full hour or more before the end of the show is a little much for me, but I don't really begrudge a dealer that does. Look it at from a dealer's perspective. After spending $25 to $100 per table, some of these guys drive a hundred miles or more in a gas-guzzling truck/van to get to the show, getting up early on a Sunday morning after packing the van/trailer the day/night before. They get to the show an hour or three before the show opens to set up, and it's very busy getting everything just right. Then you spend the next several hours selling to the public, some of whom would try the patience of a saint: some of them try to talk you down on price, some of them drop fragile items on the floor, many of them ask for things you don't have or ask inane questions about things you have no interest in. A very rare few will try to shoplift, so you have to be on the lookout for that, too. There's usually a mad rush in the first hour or two as the "hardcore hobbyists" make their way through the show. This is when you really make money, generally. Then it calms a bit around lunch, then there's the post-lunch crowd of mostly families and tire-kickers who spend enough money for the early afternoon hours to be profitable. After this second group leaves, there's not much going on. By 3PM in a small show, there's usually more dealers than customers (especially during pro football season). By the time the show closes at 4PM, the dealer has been awake for about 10 to 11 hours; it's been a full day, but it ain't over yet. It can take another 30 min. to 2 hours to pack everything up, depending on how they box things. Then they have to drive home for perhaps 1 to 2 more hours. After they get home, they might have to unload the contents of their van/truck immediately because they use the vehicle for their real job, or for their family, or it's not a secure parking spot, or it's a hobby shop and it all has to go back on the shelves tonight because the shop opens at 10AM the next day. A dealer can easily spend 14 hours in a day just working for the table. I hope one can understand why a dealer may want to shave anything they can from that, especially when the last hour at a show is unprofitable. Yes, several local restaurants near me always close well before the sign says. And by that I mean the kitchen closes early. You can stay and eat your food until the sign says they're open, but you can't order any food the last 30 to 60 min. They won't serve you because they're cleaning the kitchen instead. 7j43k,"Dishonorable" to pack up early? Remember that we dealers pay to be at the show; the show isn't paying us to be there. We're just as much a customer of the show as anyone walking through the door (and we pay a heckuva lot more). Now, some shows do have contracts, and some of those contracts specify when a dealer can pack up and leave with penalities for leaving early. Violating that contract can result in those penalities being enforced, but my honor isn't stained because I packed up early any more than the show is being dishonorable for not bringing in enough customers for the end of the show. And yes, I've seen modular layouts pack up early. Heck, it happened at the last two train shows I did this Fall. Two different groups of O-scale tinplaters packed it in before we did (and we were just as glad, really; the noise was deafening and the smoke overpowering). And yes, they did it last year, too. AFAIK, they've done it for 20 consectutive years at the one show. Few, if anyone, minds.
Enzoamps,I have been a train show dealer for 25 years; as such I have been to hundreds of train shows.
In this market of train show retail, it's all about the economics. Most small train shows need all the dealers they can find to make a good profit. Without dealers, there's no show. In this kind of small show market, the show won't threaten to disinvite a dealer over packing up early (especially if it's really slow). The dealer will simply leave whenever they want, and next year they'll be back, no questions asked.
At a big show, or at the biggest show (Springfield), there's actually a long waiting list for dealers to get into the show. No dealer at Springfield wants to jeopordize their table space by leaving early because it can take years on the waiting list to get in. The Springfield Show reminds dealers that all tables are to remain open for the entire show, that leaving early can result in a disinvite for next year and a return to the waiting list. Dealers comply because the show is such a money maker for every dealer that they'd be foolish to risk it (I know one dealer who told me that Springfield was 30% of his annual train show income).
Do I pack up early at small shows? Yep, but then we usually hold off until the last 30 min. or so even when it's dead. Packing up a full hour or more before the end of the show is a little much for me, but I don't really begrudge a dealer that does.
Look it at from a dealer's perspective. After spending $25 to $100 per table, some of these guys drive a hundred miles or more in a gas-guzzling truck/van to get to the show, getting up early on a Sunday morning after packing the van/trailer the day/night before. They get to the show an hour or three before the show opens to set up, and it's very busy getting everything just right. Then you spend the next several hours selling to the public, some of whom would try the patience of a saint: some of them try to talk you down on price, some of them drop fragile items on the floor, many of them ask for things you don't have or ask inane questions about things you have no interest in. A very rare few will try to shoplift, so you have to be on the lookout for that, too.
There's usually a mad rush in the first hour or two as the "hardcore hobbyists" make their way through the show. This is when you really make money, generally. Then it calms a bit around lunch, then there's the post-lunch crowd of mostly families and tire-kickers who spend enough money for the early afternoon hours to be profitable. After this second group leaves, there's not much going on. By 3PM in a small show, there's usually more dealers than customers (especially during pro football season).
By the time the show closes at 4PM, the dealer has been awake for about 10 to 11 hours; it's been a full day, but it ain't over yet. It can take another 30 min. to 2 hours to pack everything up, depending on how they box things. Then they have to drive home for perhaps 1 to 2 more hours. After they get home, they might have to unload the contents of their van/truck immediately because they use the vehicle for their real job, or for their family, or it's not a secure parking spot, or it's a hobby shop and it all has to go back on the shelves tonight because the shop opens at 10AM the next day.
A dealer can easily spend 14 hours in a day just working for the table. I hope one can understand why a dealer may want to shave anything they can from that, especially when the last hour at a show is unprofitable.
Yes, several local restaurants near me always close well before the sign says. And by that I mean the kitchen closes early. You can stay and eat your food until the sign says they're open, but you can't order any food the last 30 to 60 min. They won't serve you because they're cleaning the kitchen instead.
7j43k,"Dishonorable" to pack up early? Remember that we dealers pay to be at the show; the show isn't paying us to be there. We're just as much a customer of the show as anyone walking through the door (and we pay a heckuva lot more). Now, some shows do have contracts, and some of those contracts specify when a dealer can pack up and leave with penalities for leaving early. Violating that contract can result in those penalities being enforced, but my honor isn't stained because I packed up early any more than the show is being dishonorable for not bringing in enough customers for the end of the show.
And yes, I've seen modular layouts pack up early. Heck, it happened at the last two train shows I did this Fall. Two different groups of O-scale tinplaters packed it in before we did (and we were just as glad, really; the noise was deafening and the smoke overpowering). And yes, they did it last year, too. AFAIK, they've done it for 20 consectutive years at the one show. Few, if anyone, minds.
An incentive to dealers would be for the sponsors to have a drawing of those who stayed till closing time. It could be a free table(s) of the same size for the next year. Would that be a good idea? Seems as "FREE" always catches the eye.
Paul3 At a small show, there's no language in any contract I've signed that says anything about packing up early. There's clauses about possible refunds if a dealer cancels early and things like that, but packing up early is not in them. As for a contract for a train show ticket buyer? C'mon. There is no such thing.
At a small show, there's no language in any contract I've signed that says anything about packing up early. There's clauses about possible refunds if a dealer cancels early and things like that, but packing up early is not in them.
As for a contract for a train show ticket buyer? C'mon. There is no such thing.
Legally, there ARE contracts. Two, in this case. In both instances, money is conveyed from one party. The other party is obligated to deliver "product". Briefly, in this case a train show and a place to sell. Thus, a contract. Settling on further details of what is and is not included could be settled in small claims court. Some terms may not be stated, but are implied.
I doubt anyone would bring a claim to court. But ya never know.
In the case of an attendee, the promoter's side of the obligation may be obtained from his advertising, since that is what is presented to the attendee. And, generally, there are hours of operation stated. And, unless otherwise stated, the described offerings, such as guys selling trains, should be there the whole time. In the extreme, presenting an attendee with an empty room an hour before closing violates the contract. And going the other way, one guy being gone early out of 50 would not. But at some point a contractual violation (between the attendee and the PROMOTER) would occur. And a good start at determining that is when an attendee notices and is disappointed. As occurred here.
It is certainly true that there is no contract between the attendee and the table buyer. The contracts are only between each of them and the promoter.
So, while the problem for the attendee starts with the actions of some table buyers, his contract is really with the promoter, not the buyers. And so I would recommend aiming one's disappointment at the promoter.
Considering the table sellers who think it ok to leave early because of slow sales: I wonder what they would say if they were selling product like "hot cakes" and the promoter decided to close an hour early because it suited his plans. Would THEY not complain?
CGW121 Its like garage sales. Go early because the good stuff is gone quick.
Its like garage sales. Go early because the good stuff is gone quick.
We all heard that old saying "The early bird gets the worm" and that holds true for train shows and garage sales especially if the folks are selling trains.
Yes When advertised trains at my yard sale they went within 10 minutes of opening.
Joe Staten Island West