While I applaud some of the improvements in technology and modeling techniques over the past 10 years or so I wonder if maybe we have gone too far. Building ultra sophisticated and often delicate layouts which often feature "do not touch" to our children and grandchildren may have the unintended consequence of turning the young off to wanting to pursue this hobby in the future.
Everyone will draw the line at a different point on how much improvement is too much but if we totally eliminate imagination from a young persons mind I believe we do a diservice to their growth as well as to the future growth of our hobby. So where do you draw the line in how much to "improve" your layout? At the present I still run DC, have no antimation, no sound, and no lighting though I do plan to add lights at some point. There are other things that could be mentioned but you get my point. Where do you draw the line in the sand on your layout on sophistication?
I think you will find that those of us that have children and grand children don't build "do not touch" layouts if they want to introduce said little ones to the joys of model railroading. My best friends uncle provided my first intoduction to scale model railroading when I was 8. There have been numerous posts on this forum describing the same interaction today. Recently I have attended operating sessions that involved pre-teen participants without problems.
My kids have been playing with my trains since they were 2 years old. I have lots of old athearn blue box diesels that I turned into "push diesels". Removed the motors and gearing. The kids love to push these around the layout hooked up to whatever cars they desire. Sometimes they run trains too. Only twice has something taken the plunge, and that was easily fixed with a little super glue. If anything, the working crossing lights and realistic scenery makes it even more fun for them. They also enjoy playing in the town and lego cars and guys often pay a visit
Quite a philosophical discussion on a hot day!
I think there is a point to the issue. Our layouts get more and more sophisticated in the aim of attaining more and more realism in our little model world. It is not only related to the electric and electronics part of our layouts, it´s in the intricate yet frail detail of our locos and rolling stock and our scenery, accessories, structures, figures. What we may end up with are beautiful, realistic looking layouts, but with very little "play" value - not only for our children or grandchildren, but for us.
I am in "this business" for 53 years now and I have built quite a number of layouts, each one meaning another step forward in realism. But in all those years, I have never again found that thrill that I had when playing with my first layout, which was a rather crude affair, Marklin HO scale tin plate track on a table, with scenery painted on, much like the layout shown in the picture below:
This is what your average home layout looked like in the 1950´s and 1960´s and, boy, had we fun with them!
I am not saying we should go back to our roots, but we should not forget that building a layout is not a race nor a contest and that we should draw a line where the fun ends and hassle and toil begins.
A friend of mine has just built a layout, which is so intriguing in its simpicity, yet effective in its atmosphere.
It´s a little 2 by 3 layout built to run is OO9 scale narrow gauge live steam (!) loco.
The layout incorporates nearly all the ingredients for a model railroader´s nightmare - flat MDF benchwork, grass mat scenery, bottle brush trees, no ballast, sharp curves, bulky manual turnout controls, but it shows how little can be so much!
More pictures of this charming, simple layout are available here:
OO9 Live Steam Layout
Just scroll down a bit for the latest pictures.
I see nothing wrong with incorporating elements of my childhood into my layout. I use some Child Guidence buildings with some details added on part of my layout and I have a few matchbox semi truck as well as mini Hess tank trucks (farther back as they are a bit small). Makes for a more child friendly and durable layout.
Joe Staten Island West
I don't have kids and do not feel a need to have my layout include any features that are intended primarily for the enrichment of young minds. If I had kids as visitors I think I'd be more inclined to haul my boxes of Lionel O-27 upstairs and let them have at it on the living room floor.
If I did have young kids and wanted them to really expand their imaginations via model trains, I think I'd be exploring these Lego trains. While they are not scale models, I have seen some jaw dropping Lego layouts at Milwaukee's Trainfest and other shows, including the NMRA national train show. The structures are incredible and the trains themselves seem like fun and run very well. In term of imagination, the Lego system combines the best features of toy trains, Lincoln Logs, Erector sets, the Kenner sets of plastic structural beams (anybody else remember that?) and the white plastic brick set that I loved as a kid.
Dave Nelson
Even though I'm currently using my Genesis SCL GP7 and my higher detail cars on my ISL I still have my "want to run it?" Policy. If they say yes then I explain the momentum,braking and start voltage as well as the panic stop button. If they're concern about the settings then I easily convert back to DC by a simple push of a button on my Tech 6 and use a DC engine but,the majority is happy as a two headed woodpecker in a bucket of worms as they run the engine back and forth ringing the bell and blowing the horn.
My oldest nephew liked my Bachmann DCC/Sound Alco S4 so much he built a DCC/Sound 4x8' layout.Of course he always had a small interest in model trains and never failed to look at my ISL and run a engine whenever he dropped by..He started with a Bachmann DCC/Sound GP7 and now has a Atlas DCC/Sound MP15DC lettered for Stockton Terminal.
Of course my son and my Grand kids was always welcome to run my trains.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
My daughter is grown and out of the house now, and she never had much interest in the trains anyway, so I've been happy to add details to the extent that I can. Generally, I run the train and anyone else can watch. One of these days, maybe I'll try operations, but so far I just enjoy running them and watching the scenery.
If I had grandchildren, I suppose I'd have a different viewpoint, though.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
At age five, we bought our son bunkbeds, and I built him a LIONEL layout on the lower bunk...........
My five year old grandson has his own Thomas and Chuggington stuff, and is learning about pops trains.
That said, I don't give much thought to this idea of getting young people into the hobby, they will choose it, or not.
As for the high tech, high detail aspects of the hobby, I imbrace some of it, and reject others...........my DC control system with radio throttles, progresive walk around control, and CTC/signaling is more complex than most DCC setups.
Sheldon
eaglescoutWhile I applaud some of the improvements in technology and modeling techniques over the past 10 years or so I wonder if maybe we have gone too far.
You said something about imagination in your post title, but then the thread went off in a different direction about allowing cats (or grandchildren) to touch and or operate the railroad.
LION has no grandchildren, and the cat will no come indoors let alone up to the train room eaxept with screaming and clawing.
Be that as it may, and as sufistikated as railroad of LION migh (or not) be, imagination does have a place on my layout. LION will install a Baobab Tree at the head end of the 242nd Street Station. A tree may grow in Brooklyn, but a Baobab Tree in the Bronx would be quite spectacular.
Next Comes Hogwarts Castle. It will be in Brooklyn with turrets and banners but I will not have room for a Quiddich patch so will will just have to believe that it really is on the other side of the castle.
Now it seems I have some extra space where the Leonx Station is, and I will put track 9 3/4 in there. This is good, because leaving this station the train passes through the SECRET TUNNEL only to reappear at Nevins Street. But I have always planned to make this an enchanted tunnel with black lights and glowing figures. Besides, they will only be seen by the rail-fan web-cam on the front of the train, and not by bystanders in the room. Secret Tunnels must remain secret, ewe know.
THAT is what the LION thinks of when him ads immagination to a Railroad.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
eaglescout I'm not sure how removing imagination has anything to do with the argument in the body of your post. While I applaud some of the improvements in technology and modeling techniques over the past 10 years or so I wonder if maybe we have gone too far. Building ultra sophisticated and often delicate layouts which often feature "do not touch" to our children and grandchildren may have the unintended consequence of turning the young off to wanting to pursue this hobby in the future. Everyone will draw the line at a different point on how much improvement is too much but if we totally eliminate imagination from a young persons mind I believe we do a diservice to their growth as well as to the future growth of our hobby. So where do you draw the line in how much to "improve" your layout? At the present I still run DC, have no antimation, no sound, and no lighting though I do plan to add lights at some point. There are other things that could be mentioned but you get my point. Where do you draw the line in the sand on your layout on sophistication?
I'm not sure how removing imagination has anything to do with the argument in the body of your post.
It totally depends on what you are in the hobby for. If you are trying to preach the "gospel" of model railroading and get converts, then you may want to keep things more kid friendly and whatever that entails, which I would think includes sound and some animation cause that would excite youngsters, and of course use of small finger friendly models.
Many however choose to model something as close to the prototype as possible and which may involve a lot of highly detailed and fragile models.
IMO, we have definitely not gone "too far". No way. I often find some modelers trying to make an argument that this is best or that is best. I disagree with the OP that there is a right answer. This hobby has plenty of room for many ways to enjoy it, and there is no way which is right or wrong. What draws the line for many of us is how much we can afford to spend, or how much time we have or perhaps our skill level.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Sir Madog Quite a philosophical discussion on a hot day!
Seems to be the norm for this forum since our hosts permit philosophical and whimsical discusions which often focus one thing peripherially related to trains.
I think everyone has to find the answer for himself/herself.
Luckily, I don´t have the means to go "too far"
Me neither. I suppose the OP can ask that question for himself, but I don't think many others will agree, and if anything some may say we can go even further! Those people have pretty good imaginations and can dream up things not available yet, and we'll probably seem some new cool thing in the future as a result.
eaglescout So where do you draw the line in how much to "improve" your layout?
So where do you draw the line in how much to "improve" your layout?
Where do you draw the line in the sand on your layout on sophistication?
Those are the specific questions the OP asked.
My answer:
My railroad is built for me. And I have been seeking "realism" since I went from my Lionel trains to HO. So the line would be drawn about where the payoff was smaller than the energy it takes to pull things off. As a possible example, that might be full working CTC.
But there were also comments about kids and fostering imagination.
Whenever kids have been around my trains, I evaluate them (the kids AND the trains) and try to match up skill levels. They may get to watch trains. Or they may get to run trains. If they're co-ordinated enough, they may get to put equipment on the track. If they brought their own trains (never happened), they would very likely get to put them on the track and run them. Kids who think trains are for crashing (yeah, I've met one) DO NOT get to run trains. At least not until there's been some deep re-education.
Imagination: kids will or won't do that on their own. It's kind of an innate human thing. But I do think it's important to encourage and sorta channel it, rather than squash it down and ridicule it. So, uh, do that.
My kids and grandkids just kinda looked at trains and said "That's nice" and wandered off. I recall my son being far more interested in Hot Wheels than trains. Yeah, I was disappointed. Tough. I thought his Hot Wheel layout was pretty cool. And said so. And helped out when asked. Which wasn't that often, really. He pretty much knew where he wanted to go.
Ed
I think age is a significant factor in determining how a child will use their imagination.
Young kids love to get their hands on stuff (ever taken a young child grocery shopping?). While they may be willing to watch your layout for a while and even run a train back and forth, I think they would get much more out of something like a Brio or Lego train set where they can do almost anything they want.
However, older kids would get more from operating a built up layout. Having their own locomotives and cars certainly would add to that.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Ed,
In answer to those two specific questions, the last sentence in my post adresses that I think in practical terms:
"What draws the line for many of us is how much we can afford to spend, or how much time we have or perhaps our skill level."
As for kids, there have been a few times I exposed kids to trains and it seems to me, if a kid isn't interested, then I no big deal. Trains aren't for everyone. It seems if a kid is going to be interested in trains, they will let you know or they will gravitate naturally - it was that way for me. I've always been interested in trains as far back as my memory goes. So I suppose if someones "mission" is to pass on trains to the younger generations, then they will need to recognize that it's going to be a lot of effort and an up hill battle because trains don't click for the majority.
So this entire thread can be summed up with, "But what about the children?"
Here's an idea: give the children train toys like Lionel, American Flyer, Brio, or Thomas by Bachmann. Let them develop their own layouts based on their own imagination. Meanwhile, as adults, we'll do our model railroad hobby the way we want without worrying about the children. Most of us don't play with toys; instead we participate in an adult hobby for mature people, and we do it for our own enjoyment, not for entertaining children.
Look, my father has been a model railroader since the 1950's, starting with Lionel and switching to HO around 1960. My mother, as an only child, had Marx trains as a kid. Each of my parents have kept their trains, and I played with the Lionel, the Marx and the HO layout as a kid. I really didn't get into the hobby seriously until I was 15 and my father and I visited an HO club where we saw high quality (for us) model railroading. Kadee couplers, scheduled operations, car cards & waybills, superdetailed brass models, trains that didn't derail when backing up, trains that didn't stop constantly where one had to bang the table to get it to move, etc., was all news to me.
That's what got me out of toy trains and into model railroading; the idea that it could have a purpose, could look great, and frustations like balky engines and derailments could be (mostly) eliminated. It was the quality layout with quality equipment that really got me into the hobby.
If I had gone to a choo-choo toy train layout instead, I probably would have picked another hobby like flying model airplanes.
riogrande5761I disagree with the OP that there is a right answer.
Ah but,there is my friend and you even said it when you said: "This hobby has plenty of room for many ways to enjoy it, and there is no way which is right or wrong. What draws the line for many of us is how much we can afford to spend, or how much time we have or perhaps our skill level".
And that is indeed the correct answer that we all know and model by.
Like I said on the old Atlas forum,I model to please me and for my own enjoyment not to please others. You'll recall the flack I got when I said I don't notice the details or car types since I'm to busy reading the numbers. I still think that comment about using a block of wood with numbers was ridiculously ignorant and arrogant...
Now I often said I'm not inspired by anybodies modeling and that's because their layout style or modeling philosophies may not interest me one iota.
Good for you, Larry, and well-said. I have said the same thing many times here...find your own way to enjoy the hobby. If you keep looking for affirmation from others, you'll probably learn much from their feedback or criticism, but that won't guarantee you make yourself happy...only them if you conform to their input or 'rule's.
The hobby is sheltered in an enormous tent. There's lots of room for all of us.
-Crandell
BRAKIE riogrande5761 I disagree with the OP that there is a right answer. Ah but,there is my friend and you even said it when you said: "This hobby has plenty of room for many ways to enjoy it, and there is no way which is right or wrong. What draws the line for many of us is how much we can afford to spend, or how much time we have or perhaps our skill level".
riogrande5761 I disagree with the OP that there is a right answer.
I don't think that is what the OP was looking for, at least not in the context of his post. Just sayin...
And that is indeed the correct answer that we all know and model by. Like I said on the old Atlas forum,I model to please me and for my own enjoyment not to please others. You'll recall the flack I got when I said I don't notice the details or car types since I'm to busy reading the numbers. I still think that comment about using a block of wood with numbers was ridiculously ignorant and arrogant... Now I often said I'm not inspired by anybodies modeling and that's because their layout style or modeling philosophies may not interest me one iota.
Right, so the "right answer" that the OP seemed to be steering us toward is, yes, you can go "too-far". That is what I disagree'd with.
People can enjoy the hobby in many ways IMO so in that regard, there are thousands of right answers.
Once again, I haven't seen the OP come back in this topic and participate. It feels like, as often is the case here in MR forums, someone has tossed a piece of raw meat into the water to watch the frenzy. hmm... anyone feel the mick is being taken out of them?
Brakie,
I certainly agree that everyone should play with trains to suit themselves. I know I do.
I'm having a bit of trouble, though, with the idea that we've gone "too far". And that by avoiding the trap of "too far" (DCC, sound, signals, whatever), that it's good for us by challenging our imagination. Or possibly children's imagination.
I, for one, do not find it very imaginative to be constantly flicking rotary switches so my train can get around the track. Some one else may. I don't.
My dad, who was incredibly cheap, would have really enjoyed the "imagination through deprivation" concept. He would have given me some blocks of wood and told me to go out and make tracks in the dirt like he did during the Depression.
(Coupla other Dad-stories: they used to get skim milk free from the dairy, 'cause they just would have thrown it out. and he and his siblings would scout along the railroad tracks to find coal that fell off the train and take it home. True? Quite likely.)
Should you think I didn't like him, you'd be quite wrong. We all have our quirks and flaws.
No kids, so it is for my enjoyment, and is therefore done to the best I can, and afford, no matter if it is more fragile or not.
DCC, sound in most, and the new layout will include signals and lighting effects.
But, I have anything from a Athearn BB loco, to a Genesis loco, Bachmann to Atlas, Intermountain and Bowser, with railcars from BB up to intricately detailed cars that you give them a funny look something breaks off.
Whatever will fit my needs, that is affordable, is what I have.
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
Let's leave the kids out of this for a change. Already plenty of discussion about that, with little conclusive effect...
So what about us, those intent on this being a satisfying hobby? Larry and others have already pointed out you should focus on pleasing yourself and if it happens to interest others incidentally, then all the better.
I'd argue the division isn't so much technical as it is philosophical. People wonder where the fun went (it really is still in MR, even if not on the cover in plain text all the time) and I think imagination -- or the lack of it -- does play a role. When things were crude and less detailed, etc, etc, you had to use the old imagination. Now, with the the strengthened emphasis on prototype, it's contemplating the righteousness of one's detail that measures satisfaction for many of us or, correspondingly, disappointment if it's perceived as inadequate. What's good today seems like it will be inadequate tomorrow.
Yet the reality is we are fast approaching the practical limits of detail unless we intend to leave the stuff boxed. It's not just fragility, but being able to see it. Some use the 3' rule and that is a good one layout use. But when you have to whip out the magnifying glass to appreciate everything "visible" on a new loco, one does have to ask how much that matters beyond bragging rights? This is 3D stuff, not the virtual world where you can still count on things getting faster, smaller, better every year (and if you peak in there, you see limits, too, even though this is something that almost requires a EE to appreciate in physical terms.)
I see no problem with just being frank that "more, more, more detail" is a mixed blessing. It's driving a LOT of the costs in this hobby right now, the exact thing that many who want it also worry over being a barrier to entry into the hobby. Well, having your cake and eating it too is always a neat trick. It's far easier to eat half the cake and keep the other half for most of us.
My own take is that the closer to the tracks something is, the more detail should be on it. The RR is the focus of this hobby and so should it be on the layout. Is this an argument in favor of Plywood Pacifics? Not at all, it's an argument that the layout will never be as detailed as out models -- and even less so prototypically accurate in spatial terms than the real thing. No one has space for that, it is always a compromise and the quicker we come to terms with that, probably the more you'll enjoy the hobby.
Who is likely not enjoying the hobby? The 100%ers who play the game of insisting on the same off track standard of depiction as they do in the tasty (and often expensive!) models now available, those who insist they must always have the latest and greatest to meet their (sniff! ) "standards" (nice if you can afford it, but don't you need to exercise your imgination a little? ), and a hyper-focused attention to accuracy that never quite leads to an operating layout, no matter how modest (maybe that's why they're not having any fun?).
Don't get me wrong, I like prototype-focused modeling. But I'd argue that it's a lot like an all-meat diet. Even if you like steak, you start to miss some variety, often without even realizing your mono-culture leaves you hungry for something you can't quite put a finger on. Go ahead and pursue perfection, but keep it in achievable limits in order to leave yourself some space to loosen that collare, unbutton that hair shirt, and just get creative in that big sandbox we call the layout. If there's no room for that, find a club or build a module. Just do it, don't worry about it being 100% exact...because it never will be.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Where do I draw the line in the sand that is too much? Asking people to pass the fireman, conductor and engineer rulebook examination before operating on my layout. That is about where I think it is too much. Will I attempt to teach you prototype rules, yes. Timetable and Train Order (yes), CTC, yes. Why: my layout, my rules.
eaglescout I think Madog said it best in that when we were much younger the thrill and excitement of our trains did not depend on how much we had or how detailed they were. Our imagination filled in the blanks and in our minds we saw much more on our layout than what the adult mind would see.
I dont know, I got bored with my first layout. There was no "stiffling of my imagination". Probably had something to do with having a loop of track nailed to a piece of plywood an nothing to "do" but watch a train go around in circles. That layout existed from when I was 9-10 until I was 17, I can count on my hand the number of times I played with it, my brio got more use (way more). Why, because I could use my imagination and change the track plan to infinity (with Brio). Scale model trains and track are not meant to be taken apart and put back to gether over and over again. They wear out quickly, get broken, etc.
It took me building a 3 rail O scale layout with my own $$$ to realize that I cannot stand what a fellow club member calls "baseball". Drives me nuts.
eaglescoutI am not opposed to those who want all the newer and better stuff for their own enjoyment but still feels it stifles creativity and imagination in children if there is nothing else left for them to imagine.
The point of all the scenery and detail is transfering your imagination into 3 dimensions. Its a form of art. What exactly are you advocating here? Not one child that attended the Amherst show at Springfield, MA bothered to stop to look at my modules when there was no detail for them to look at. They watched the trains run through other peoples scenery, but moved past mine because it was plain and boring. So I think your ascertation that I am stiffling a childerns creativity is a little off the mark.
Also there is a whole model railroad club which its whole purpose is to let kids run their Lionel and MTH 3 rail trains (incidentally its called Kids Run Trains). Those layouts get varying degrees of scenery. Most of it durable so that kids can touch.
That having been said.
A block of wood could actually make a pretty affordable and easy to build piece of rolling stock. You could even make it in the shape of an NMRA guage to check your clearances on your layout. So I guess thank you for bringing up this topic, because Larry's comment before gave me an idea.
eaglescout ...newer and better stuff...still feels it stifles creativity and imagination in children if there is nothing else left for them to imagine.
...newer and better stuff...still feels it stifles creativity and imagination in children if there is nothing else left for them to imagine.
Nothing?
There's ALWAYS something left for kids to imagine. That's what they DO. Especially in a classroom with real glass windows to look out of. Remember?
I do suspect some kids just don't have the ability to imagine. Maybe they never had it. Maybe it was beaten out of them. In one way or another. I think they're rather few. Or at least hope.
It does seem that the worst thing for kids' imagination is the presence and input of adults.
eaglescout Our imagination filled in the blanks and in our minds we saw much more on our layout than what the adult mind would see. I am not opposed to those who want all the newer and better stuff for their own enjoyment but still feels it stifles creativity and imagination in children if there is nothing else left for them to imagine.
So your supposition is that if you fill in the blanks it stifles imagination? That makes no sense to me. Heck, I remember when I was a kid and I'd set up trains and since there was no scenery, only rug or bare surfaces, I had to try to imagine scenery and well, that didin't work very well for me. I would have sooooo loved to have a layout with real scenery. No, I think having details only give's inspiration. When I saw or still see a nicely detailed layout, it inspires me to want to try to do something like that myself - and obviously I'm going to have to try to fill it all in; but since I want to imitate real places, then thats another thing I have to look to for inspiration.
Anyway, I can't wrap my head around the idea that more details and more cool stuff stifles creativity.
Creativity needs to have a basis. If a kid is born into the world with sensory deprivation, what basis will they have to be creative. No basis. So the best thing is you have to expose kids to as many things as possible; that increase creativity. This is why, in an ideal world, parents expose their kids to as many things as possible while they are groing up: lots of sports, music, arts, history, science, travel, culture, etc. etc. To me it's a no brainer to do exactly the opposite of what the OP is suggesting.
mlehmanLet's leave the kids out of this for a change. Already plenty of discussion about that, with little conclusive effect...
Amen to that.
I fully expect to see a post that says "if you don't lead them down the rightous road of model railroading, their blood will be on your hands".
When my son was young, I gave him Brio trains. He played with them and loved them, but he is 31 today and will never be a model railroader. I don't care.
This perpetual theme that comes up here almost daily that I "owe something to the hobby" and need to "give back" to insure "the future of model railroading" is a huge load of crap.
I for one do not care if anyone after me ever takes up the hobby. I'm glad to help anyone that is interested, but I feel no responsibility to recruit new model railroaders.
I remember visiting a layout once that had a sign at the entrance with a horizontal line about 4 feet from the floor. It said "if you are less than this tall, put your hands in your pockets and leave them there".
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.