I guess we can disagree on what stimulates imagination the best. Agreed a sensory deprived individual will have much difficulty imagining many things. Imagination (seeing in your mind something that is not currently visible) grows in stages like the rest of our development. I am a little amazed at the lack of interest by some in promoting a great hobby to our younger generations. Its not an obligation or a demand just something I would do just like any other interest I have in life. So far my 3 and 4 year old grandsons are having a blast with their Thomas the train set we gave them and like running Papa's trains when they come to visit. But as I observe them setting things up I can almost hear the wheels turning in their heads imagining the next thing they will try to do. Sometimes I play with them but other times I just get out of the way and enjoy watching them build and create on their own.
eaglescout I guess we can disagree on what stimulates imagination the best. Agreed a sensory deprived individual will have much difficulty imagining many things. Imagination (seeing in your mind something that is not currently visible) grows in stages like the rest of our development. I am a little amazed at the lack of interest by some in promoting a great hobby to our younger generations. Its not an obligation or a demand just something I would do just like any other interest I have in life. So far my 3 and 4 year old grandsons are having a blast with their Thomas the train set we gave them and like running Papa's trains when they come to visit. But as I observe them setting things up I can almost hear the wheels turning in their heads imagining the next thing they will try to do. Sometimes I play with them but other times I just get out of the way and enjoy watching them build and create on their own.
eaglescout, respectfully, I love my grandchildren, but going all the way back to my own childhood, I have enjoyed the solitude and quiet of building model trains. It is an escape from noise, chaos, chores, people ....... the outside world in general. I suspect a number of others who gave you not so child friendly responses feel similarly.
I raised three children and three step children, guess what I learned - I'm not really a "kid" person..........especially someone else's kids.......like at an open house or train show.......
Like Clint said, a man should know his limitations......
Sheldon
eaglescoutI am a little amazed at the lack of interest by some in promoting a great hobby to our younger generations. Its not an obligation or a demand just something I would do just like any other interest I have in life.
Please don't take my disinterest in another discussion about kids and trains as a lack of interest in promoting trains when I can to folks of ever age. I've just come to be realistic, most kids do what they're interested in and all you can do is present them with the option and expect most to say, "Neat. What else you got?" And that's the polite ones...
But after helping a friend with a project yesterday, I made a point of reminding him he can bring the kids by to check out the layout whenever. The usual brief discussion over who was old enough to do that ensued and I reminded him Xmas was coming. It's all you really can do, offer the opportunity. Those who really want to enjoy the hobby will figure it out. Most of us did that with relatively little adult intervention, as for all the interest shown, it's a fact that few young people are lucky enough to find themselves with the opportunities that many of us offer.
I actually think something that would make the hobby more attractive to young folks is to quit acting like such a bunch of insecure old boys and just enjoy what we do together. Young folks have got to look at arguments like this and go, "That hobby must drive them crazy -- or they have to be crazy to pick up the hobby?"
Refer back again to pleasing one's self. If we concentrated on being happy in the hobby, that becomes a more powerful sign than any amount of negative criticism, no matter how well intended that might be.
As a point I do wish to make, I applaud you for what you're doing for the next generations. Nothing wrong with that at all. Just keep your expectations realistic and value your efforts for the time spent with them, not the number of conversions made to the hobby, and everyone will likely get more than they expected, even if not exactly what they expected.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
It just goes to show you that not everyone thinks alike, which really shouldn't be amazing at all, espeically after observing people for a long time like I would imagine you have if your are old enough to be a grand parent. I am old enough to be considered a senior citizen by some measure and it hasn't escaped me that not everyone feels a responsibilty to spark trains in kids, or everone isn't a kid person. I guess if you thought it was something natural to model railroaders, then this topic is a dose of reality.
This is a topic seems to come up fairly often here almost as if it's a church like moral pressure to pass the hobby on. I think it is good and for those who feel that "calling", but my guess is those who don't, grow weary of feeling pressured to do this by others, as if there is something wrong there. There isn't anything wrong, it's just not for everyone. The sooner folks understand that, the better it will be.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
7j43kI'm having a bit of trouble, though, with the idea that we've gone "too far". And that by avoiding the trap of "too far" (DCC, sound, signals, whatever), that it's good for us by challenging our imagination. Or possibly children's imagination.
Ed,Not likely especially after watching kid's eyes light up during the week of the county fair when a sound equipped locomotive rolls by and you give them two short blast on the horn or whistle like a prototype engineer does. OTOH a silent engine rolls by with very little excitement.
When one of the guys MTH engines started radio chatter a 5 or 6 year old child yelled "Mom! Listen! That's cool!"
When I use one of my DCC/Sound units I feel like I'm track side watching a crew go about their work delivering car loads of freight. Should that be counted as imagination? I think so,since I am the crew delivering freight cars full of stale air instead of freight.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I'm assuming the OP is talking about an actual operating layout. The first time that we lay a curve sharper than about a 50 inch radius, we concede that realism is out the window. Attaining realism is just a figment of the imagination, so embrace imagination and use it where it makes sense.
A realistic presentation is the best we can do. The day the hobby becomes reduced to simply an exact scale replica of the protoype is the day the hobby dies, IMO. Nobody will ever have enough space to have an accurate layout. And if they had that much space, the trains would be dwarfed by the scenery and structures, so they would probably be bored. That's why the hobby will die on that day, because it thrives on imagination in the first place....again, talking about pursuing the hobby by having an operating layout. I can't speak to the perspective of pursuing the hobby with interests outside of having a layout.
As far as kids, I would let them run trains with my wireless throttle if they were interested. I wouldn't want kids handling them. If they were to have an independent layout, I would buy them items better suited for that than the models I have on my layout.
In that vain, yes, we have come way too far in the pursuit of realism for us to share our hobby with kids, because the models most of us use are way too precise, IOW, too delicate to share with them. Since most would choose to revert back to old technology and bring out the Blue Box, MDCs, and others for the kids, its obvious we've come too far.
- Douglas
I would like to refer back to my point and other people's points as well. There are trains that are meant for small children to play with (O 3rail, Brio, etc). My home layout that I build for myself is not meant for small hands (neither are my HO modules). I have (or will have soon) model train modules (previously mentioned Kids Run Trains), that are specifically designed for little hands (3 Rail O using Lionel Fasttrack) where strangers kids can come run my toy trains. If a teenager wants to get involved with scale modeling thats a different story. Small children for the most part do not have the attention span to appreciate highly detailed scale models. They want to see moving things, animation. Otherwise they get bored around age 8-9 and you'll never get them back into the hobby until they retire from their jobs.
Hello all, back after a day and a half of chores and mowing the back 40. I thank you all for your respectful comments. I was not trying to change anyone and their beliefs. I was just trying to get a feel for where we stand technology wise in relation to our own and future generations. If you are maxed out to the hilt with every new item coming down the pike enjoy it and keep our economy growing. For me and others we will continue in our primitive world of DC and hearing only the clickety-clack of metal wheels rolling down my brass track on a scenic layout mostly made from scratch with some out of scale and non-prototype detailing. Enjoy the hobby just don't give it up!
DoughlessIn that vain, yes, we have come way too far in the pursuit of realism for us to share our hobby with kids, because the models most of us use are way too precise, IOW, too delicate to share with them. Since most would choose to revert back to old technology and bring out the Blue Box, MDCs, and others for the kids, its obvious we've come too far.
That's one of the reasons I kept my older BB engines and BB and Roundhouse cars.Of course the main reason is they still fill my simple modeling needs.
I'm currently using my higher detail cars and my P2K Ohio Central GP7 simply because I wanted some type of investment return and while they were neatly packed in a storage tote I was getting a fat zero in that department.
eaglescout Hello all, back after a day and a half of chores and mowing the back 40. I thank you all for your respectful comments. I was not trying to change anyone and their beliefs. I was just trying to get a feel for where we stand technology wise in relation to our own and future generations. If you are maxed out to the hilt with every new item coming down the pike enjoy it and keep our economy growing. For me and others we will continue in our primitive world of DC and hearing only the clickety-clack of metal wheels rolling down my brass track on a scenic layout mostly made from scratch with some out of scale and non-prototype detailing. Enjoy the hobby just don't give it up!
Eaglescout, I entered this hobby at an early age, 10, and worked retail in this business as a teen and young adult. Not sure I agree or understand the premise of your original post.
The younger people attracted to the hobby today seem to be at least partly attracted by the high tech, DCC, sound, better detail, wireless throttles, etc.
That said, comments by myself and others about appropriate types of trains for smaller/younger children still stand.
Even without any high tech, I still run DC with no sound, the kind of models I am interested in building and owning are not, and never were, suitable for preteen hands......
So for me there is a disconnect in your original premise.
A five or ten year old needs trains suitable for their skills....with or without sound. They are not ready for my detailed scale models. And that was just as true in 1968.
I still run DC, but it is DC with radio throttles, CTC, signaling, single button route turnout control, etc.
I don't like onboard sound because of its poor sound quality in HO, not because of any adversion to tech.
My five year old and ten year old grandchildren run my trains, but they know not to touch without supervision. They have their own age appropriate trains to play with.
As to issue of "developing their imaginations", I will leave that to other greater minds....
I may be completely off the track, but in my understanding, the OPs intention with his post was not the issue of discussing how to attract the next generation into this hobby, but to raise the question whether thhis hobby has developed into an evermore realistic, but over-complex matter (at a high cost, of course - my interjection) leaving very little room to let one´s imagination roam - just like we did as children with our rather crude trainsets and layouts.
The OP may tell, whether my interpretation is right or wrong.
Sir Madog I may be completely off the track, but in my understanding, the OPs intention with his post was not the issue of discussing how to attract the next generation into this hobby, but to raise the question whether thhis hobby has developed into an evermore realistic, but over-complex matter (at a high cost, of course - my interjection) leaving very little room to let one´s imagination roam - just like we did as children with our rather crude trainsets and layouts. The OP may tell, whether my interpretation is right or wrong.
You may be right, but my assertion is that even back in the day I was interested in reaching the next level of detail and realism. At age 14 I was building craftsman freight car kits and adding full brake rigging with Cal Scale parts, installing working diaphragms on passenger cars, installing directional headlights, super detailing Mantua steamers with CalScale, and more.
Sure it is easier to reach that level of detail today, but many of us did it 40 plus years ago......
ATLANTIC CENTRALYou may be right, but my assertion is that even back in the day I was interested in reaching the next level of detail and realism. At age 14 I was building craftsman freight car kits and adding full brake rigging with Cal Scale parts, installing working diaphragms on passenger cars, installing directional headlights, super detailing Mantua steamers with CalScale, and more. Sure it is easier to reach that level of detail today, but many of us did it 40 plus years ago...... Sheldon
Sheldon,While I never got into craftsman kits or overly concerened about advancing my hobby beyond my simple needs I did and still add some details. I'm far better turning Evergreen plastic shapes into freight car loads then I'm taking some scale lumber and making a yard office or station. I can live with that.
In some ways I miss the old days.
ATLANTIC CENTRALAt age 14
... I sold all my Marklin stuff in a frenzy, because of the toy-like appearance. That was shortly after I got my first copy of MR.
I sincerely regret that move today!
One of the great things in our hobby is that it supports so many different interests. If only we had a little more tolerance and respect for those, who walk down a different route than we do....
Ulrich and Larry, we all find the level of detail and sophistication in this hobby that suits us and that is fine. I am way more picky than some, and way more casual than some others.
But to assume that everyone in tne hobby was more "casual", or toylike, or content to use their imagination back in the day, is a gross misrepresentation of how the hobby was in, lets say 1958, or 1968, or 1978.........
Sure we accepted limitations of products, time, money, information, but many worked hard at doing the most they could toward realism with what we had.
It was way more than Tyco train sets and LifeLike grass mats.........
The Original Poster has argued two or three different points as if they are problems today -- but none of them really are. If one wishes to work with less-detailed models, let kids touch them, run them on DC, and build minimalist structures and scenery to permit more to be filled-in by the imagiantion, one is totally free to do so. Lesser-detailed models are still being offered and the rest is a matter of personal preference.
The only difference is that today there are more options to build more realistic models and scenes -- if one wishes to.
Sir MadogIf only we had a little more tolerance and respect for those, who walk down a different route than we do....
I respectfully disagree. I think there is plenty of tolerance shown to people who wish to model any way they choose.
In my opinion, what is more prevalent these days is the "reverse elitism" of people claiming they are somehow being oppressed by those who model with more detail, with nickel silver track, with on-board sound, with command control, or whatever.
For me the bottom line is: model the way you want. If you enjoy it, you're doing it right. Just please don't whine about others who are doing it differently -- they're not affecting you in the least. Except maybe in your own mind.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
cuyama The Original Poster has argued two or three different points as if they are problems today -- but none of them really are. If one wishes to work with less-detailed models, let kids touch them, run them on DC, and build minimalist structures and scenery to permit more to be filled-in by the imagiantion, one is totally free to do so. Lesser-detailed models are still being offered and the rest is a matter of personal preference. The only differnce is that today there are more options to build more realistic models and scenes -- if one wishes to. Sir Madog If only we had a little more tolerance and respect for those, who walk down a different route than we do.... I respectfully disagree. I think there is plenty of tolerance shown to people who wish to model any way they choose. In my opinion, what is more prevalent these days is the "reverse elitism" of people claiming they are somehow being oppressed by those who model with more detail, with nickel silver track, with on-board sound, with command control, or whatever. For me the bottom line is: model the way you want. If you enjoy it, you're doing it right. Just please don't whine about others who are doing it differently -- they're not affecting you in the least. Except maybe in your own mind.
The only differnce is that today there are more options to build more realistic models and scenes -- if one wishes to.
Sir Madog If only we had a little more tolerance and respect for those, who walk down a different route than we do....
Very well said.
cuyamaI respectfully disagree. I think there is plenty of tolerance shown to people who wish to model any way they choose.
... works both ways, doesn´t it, Byron?
I believe the basic fact that is being overlooked here is that model railroading and playing with toy trains are two different activities. I will not be so pompous as to define where that line is drawn, but there is a difference.
The "imagination" that the OP believes we have lost, IMO is a component of playing with toy trains, which is not what most of us do. Choosing what level of detail is appropriate for any one element of my model railroad has nothing to do with imagination. I don't expect my model to help imagine an SD40-2, I expect it to represent a SD40-2.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
Sir Madog cuyama I respectfully disagree. I think there is plenty of tolerance shown to people who wish to model any way they choose. ... works both ways, doesn´t it, Byron?
cuyama I respectfully disagree. I think there is plenty of tolerance shown to people who wish to model any way they choose.
Sorry, I'm dense, I miss your point. If you are implying that my post demonstrates intolerance, I'm not seeing it. I think I'm very tolerant of anyone's modeling choices.
What I do find tedious is the complaining about others’ choices. How does a prototype modeler working to recreate scenes faithfully impact someone else who chooses to run generic models over a grass mat (to use an extreme example)?
My point is simply that folks should do what they want – and be content with their own choices. My gripe is when people complain about what others are doing.
And now I remember why I usually avoid these pointless rumination threads and will bow out.
I think I am not expressing myself correctly - apologies if I stepped on your toes.
cuyamaMy point is simply that folks should do what they want – and be content with their own choices. My gripe is when people complain about what others are doing.
That´s what exactly what I wanted to express, blame it on my bad command of the English language, which is a foreign language for me.
Sir MadogThat´s what exactly what I wanted to express, blame it on my bad command of the English language, which is a foreign language for me.
Oops, then the mistake was totally mine -- inflection is hard to read.
Mein Deutsch ist ganz schrecklich, Ihr Englisch ist viel besser. Entschuldigen Sie mich!
cuyama Sir Madog That´s what exactly what I wanted to express, blame it on my bad command of the English language, which is a foreign language for me. Oops, then the mistake was totally mine -- inflection is hard to read. Mein Deutsch ist ganz schrecklich, Ihr Englisch ist viel besser. Entschuldigen Sie mich!
Sir Madog That´s what exactly what I wanted to express, blame it on my bad command of the English language, which is a foreign language for me.
And my German is just good enough to get that, so Ulrich, I too am sorry if I misunderstood your intent.
I think this is a rather classic example of a communication on a virtual platform having gone astray. If we had had this exchange while being able to see each other, this misunderstanding would never have occured.
Guys,Here's my ISL ideas.
In my case you can look until the cows come home and beyond and you'll still not find a car that doesn't belong in 77/78 or after a quick change, cars that doesn't belong on 94/95. You will not find any industry with funny names like Kaboom Chemicals. You will see names like National Plastics,Mid State Foods(a grocery distributor) T.W Wilson Corp etc.
Check the trash hoppers and you'll find scrap that is correct for the industry it serves. You will find weeds,crab grass,trash,broken pallets etc instead of areas that resembles well manicured lawns in a industrialized area..
BRAKIE Guys,Here's my ISL ideas. In my case you can look until the cows come home and beyond and you'll still not find a car that doesn't belong in 77/78 or after a quick change, cars that doesn't belong on 94/95. You will not find any industry with funny names like Kaboom Chemicals. You will see names like National Plastics,Mid State Foods(a grocery distributor) T.W Wilson Corp etc. Check the trash hoppers and you'll find scrap that is correct for the industry it serves. You will find weeds,crab grass,trash,broken pallets etc instead of areas that resembles well manicured lawns in a industrialized area..
Too bad. It would actually be legitimate, thus leaving nothing to the imagination.
http://www.kaboomkaboom.com/products/kaboom-shower-tub-and-tile-cleaner.aspx
Andre
Kaboom is a brand name of Church & Dwight Co. Inc and in that light the industry name should be Church & Dwight Co. Inc or one of its contractors since they have several brand names including Arm & Hammer..
Hi eaglescout
Well, I am going to really throw the pidgeon's at the cat and say there is no imagination in model railways it's very name implies that
We engineer base boards to a standard copy locomotives and rolling stock according to engineering drawings we even copy our scenes.
Our hobby is no less enjoyable for that.
I still run DC and I push things as far as I can take them with the knowledge and skills I have.
I have lights in my structures and some yard and street lights even a burning fire in an oil drum.
All points are twin coil solenoids I plan on having a working windmill courtesy of the Bachmann TTE range as this is the right type for my current layout.
If I was building a layout for exhibition purposes I would be looking more at what would entertain the public as 90% of the viewing public are not model railway people so public entertainment value is more important.
The only question that really matters is, is your version of the hobby fun?? to which the answer should be YES.
regards John
Ulrich, I think you are on the right track. I interpret that what OP is saying, that the closer we get to placing an exact scale replica of reality...not a representation of reality....into our layout space the less that imagination is needed.
For me, there is a line that could be crossed. If I were to take a snapshot of a day in time, replicate a real railroad; and focus on assembling the exact locos, cars, structures and operating them in the precise way on that day in time, IOW copy a prototype exactly and reduce everything to 1:87 scale, I would be bored stiff.
Maybe the word imagination in not the right word. Maybe I'm thinking about "departure from reality" My layouts will always have some departure from reality in order for them to be fun for me.
A real railroad involves a lot of hard work and management. Why would I want that as a hobby?
I don't know if modeling accurately and precisely to scale everything about the prototype has yet crossed the line for me, but I think it's possible for it to get there someday.
eaglescout .......but if we totally eliminate imagination from a young persons mind......
eaglescout Where do you draw the line in the sand on your layout on sophistication?
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."