Does anyone have any pictures comparing a blue box f7 to a more prototypical model? I know they have misshapen noses and what not but assuming I only ran it with other blue boxes would I ever really notice it? I don't plan on getting any f7s besides the ones I have ordered. Getting different models is out of the question because I'm simply in this for the fun of modifying diesels. In short, I just want to know how unprototypical blue box f7s really are, especially compared to more modern offerings.
That old Globe/Athearn F7 been around for at least 60 years..As far as being prototypical-well,let's say it favors a F7/FP7 in looks..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
The Globe/Athearn bluebox/now Roundhouse F7 is a rather crude (by todays standards) HO model of the F7. How unprototypical they are is totally up to what you are willing to accept; everyone has different levels they will tolerate.
In the late 1980's when Stewart came out with their much improved model of the F3/F7/F9's, I quickly sold off my Athearn blue box F7's because I never cared for the way they looked, especially the windshields just looked aweful to me, and other parts of the shell were pretty crude too. The Stewarts looked so much better and ran like a dream - it was an easy decision to make.
Why does Athearn still make the bluebox Globe based F7? People who are not descriminating buy them. Everyone has different tastes basically.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
People were happy with them for decades. Indeed I can recall when adding the Walthers diesel dress-up kit to an Athearn F7 was pretty much the state of the art in super detailing (those dress up kits are still to be found at swap meets). I can recall when the number boards on the nose were separate castings - that goes back.
Even now finding a "glass" insert for the gaping opening of the windshields helps a great deal in the overall appearance. Someone offered it laser cut window insert at one time.
I do recall when Atlas released an F unit, perhaps FP7?, that it became clear the roof contour and curve was also a bit off on the Athearn. So it was not just the nose. Many makes have had problems with the nose.
What I would say is that the flaws in the Athearn/Globe casting become most evident when there is an accurate model nearby. Similarly you can tolerate the excess width of the EMD GPs and SDs until they are run with a model that is accurate. Viewed in isolation I think you could still be happy running your Athearn blue box.
Dave Nelson
Personally, I wouldn't worry about it. Just run them and enjoy them. But then I don't really see much difference between F3, F7, and F9.
For me model railroading is like a painting - if it looks good, then I'm fine with it. For others model railroading is like a photograph - every little detail has to be correct. Other folks are in between somewhere.
Close up photography which is typical of the model press and expensive museum quality models try to push everyone in the direction of extreme detail and correctness. But at 3 feet watching the trains run, how much detail do you notice? If you see this as a hobby to relax and unwind from the day then go with what's fun for you and ignore the rest.
Enjoy
Paul
Yes, you will notice. If you don't somebody will point it out to you. The real question is whether or not you care. The fact that you asked the question implies to me that you do care.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
I have a BB GP60, and a BB D9-44CW. The GP60 is the only GP60 model that I have, so no one is the wiser. The D9 however, needed a little detailing to get it on par with other modern GE units that I have.
I added grab irons to the D9, added snowplow(s) to both, (2 on the GP60, one on each end, per prototype), painted the handrails, and so long as they [EDIT: My GE units] are not sitting close-up to you [EDIT: right next to] next to each other, you can't spot the differences.
So, I say, run them and enjoy them. That's what they are for. Your enjoyment.
And, if any "expert" points out any perceived issues, just let them know, it's for fun, doesn't have to be 1000% accurate, or cost five years wages to be fun.
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
Honestly, when I think of the term "model" I think of those models of clipper ships, where the builder painstakingly applies rigging to each sail in the precise location.
After building it, he wouldn't put a motor in it and run it in the nearest pond, at least I wouldn't think so. He probably puts it on display with his other achievements. That is fine. The approach to a hobby is slightly different from person to person.
I think its a balance. Eventhough its called "model railroading", I think the goal is to achieve and accurate representation of the prototype, where compromises are made. Some make compromises in one area, others in another.
I don't notice things like cab curvatures unless they are pointed out. I can say the same thing about differences in EMD prime movers in sound decoders, for the most part.
I've read where the Atlas B23-7 long hood is "all wrong". I look at mine and compare it to a photo, and I just can't see how it is. But, I think a $200 bottle of wine tastes the same as a $20 bottle of wine, so I don't think I have what it takes to be as discriminating as others in the hobby.
- Douglas
dknelson People were happy with them for decades.
People were happy with them for decades.
Thats all their was for decades - I wasn't happy with mine but there was no better affordable choice until Stewart came along and then I sold mine fairly soon after; even nostalgia didn't hold me back from selling my last one very long.
Indeed I can recall when adding the Walthers diesel dress-up kit to an Athearn F7 was pretty much the state of the art in super detailing. Even now finding a "glass" insert for the gaping opening of the windshields helps a great deal in the overall appearance.
Even now finding a "glass" insert for the gaping opening of the windshields helps a great deal in the overall appearance.
Yes, the stock Athearn F7A didn't come with window "glass" for a long time so I got one of those kits; to me it didn't help a great deal, but it helped, but it didn't correct the aweful ugly oversized squared of huge size windshields which was at the core of the problem.
Someone offered it laser cut window insert at one time.
That was AMB (American Model Builders) IIRC. They made two Athearn laser windshield kits. One was just a better version of the Walthers, but the other actually corrected the aweful huge opening and re-framed it so it was much closer to the correct size and shape, and there was an window insert for that. When done correctly, it made the Athearn windshield look close to what you see on the Intermountain F7 windshields - a HUGE improvement.
Yes, I debated getting the Atlas FP7 for years but ultimately couldn't bring myself to open my wallet when there were so many other better looking models I could spend my money on. It wasn't until Athearn Genesis came out with their FP7 that I finally laid money down.
What I would say is that the flaws in the Athearn/Globe casting become most evident when there is an accurate model nearby. Similarly you can tolerate the excess width of the EMD GPs and SDs until they are run with a model that is accurate. Viewed in isolation I think you could still be happy running your Athearn blue box. Dave Nelson
YMMV of course. At age 14 I looked at my brand new Athearn blue box SP SD45 in isolation and it looked wrong - the nose looked fat. That was at age 14. Of course I enjoyed watching the real thing run through my home down of Davis California so I guess it wasn't in total isolation! Yes, some may require side by side comparisons for flaws to be obvious, many will not - the flaws are evident to people are a fans of certain engines and have looked at them enough that they automatically see the flaws.
Yes, YMMV and thats why I'm not understanding why the original poster is asking our opinions. He should be able to tell if he is happy enough with what he has and doesn't need the affirmation of other train fans.
riogrande5761 Yes, YMMV and thats why I'm not understanding why the original poster is asking our opinions. He should be able to tell if he is happy enough with what he has and doesn't need the affirmation of other train fans.
Doughless riogrande5761 Yes, YMMV and thats why I'm not understanding why the original poster is asking our opinions. He should be able to tell if he is happy enough with what he has and doesn't need the affirmation of other train fans. Jim, I think OP was just giving us some insight into his concern, but I don't think seeking our opinion was his real question. I think he wants to know in what ways does the shell depart from the prototype. If I knew, I would answer. Maybe you could concisely list what is different about the BB F7 from the prototype and skip the affirmation part of it. It might be educational for a lot of folks.
American Model Builders still sell the kit for modifying the shape of the BB F7 windows as well as a kit that fits the original openings.
http://www.laserkit.com/laserkit.htm
I can attest to the quality of their products. I used their Athearn caboose window kits for a fleet of cabooses as well as their F series headlight lenses. The 'glass' fit so well it didn't require glue.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
The Athearn Blue Box F7 dates back to the early production by Globe in the 1950's. The overall look was close enough to satisfy the modelers of the day. Actually, the typical model railroader of that era didn't know the difference between an FT and an F7, and many didn't even know that they weren't the same as E units!
As I said, they were close enough for the time, but the roof contour was wrong; the windshield was not shaped quite right; and many of the details (such as roof details and grille type) were not correct for the various prototype paint schemes. The Blomberg trucks of that time were also not quite right. Nevertheless, they were the best thing available, so they were quite popular.
Now we have better information and more accurate options. The tooling still exists and is evidently still usable, so it is being used in entry level sets. There's nothing really wrong with this, but most modelers would probably prefer to improve their models as their sophistication increases.
Tom
While I had quite a few Athearn Blue Box diesels, none were their F7s. I did, however, have four Globe F7s, an ABBA set painted and lettered, by my father, in the Santa Fe "Warbonnet" scheme. All came fitted with Kadees (K-type) and working diaphragms from MHP.
I later repainted them to CPR's "block" lettering scheme, then later, after adding details, to my home road's scheme at the time, as shown below.
With only one Lindsay power truck in one of the B-units, they ran well-enough when the brass wheels and brass rails were both clean, but weren't great pullers. I was never aware of the discrepancies in the body shell until well-after they had been sold when I back-dated my layout.At the time, the F7s and all of Athearn's overly-wide hood units provided a great entryway into model railroading and, for many, the art of superdetailing, too. For that, and their affordable prices and reliability, they're an important part in the history of this hobby.
Wayne
Doughless Maybe you could concisely list what is different about the BB F7 from the prototype <snip>. It might be educational for a lot of folks.
Maybe you could concisely list what is different about the BB F7 from the prototype <snip>. It might be educational for a lot of folks.
- Windshield openings are much too large and badly shaped.
- Numberboards are badly shaped - just compare to Stewart or Genesis
- Air grills on the upper sides have no detail at all - just horizontal grooves.
- Nose contour is difficult to get right, shape is not very accurate especially around the headlights. Most modelers agree the best model with the most accurate nose contours are Athearn Genesis and Rapido F units.
Another poster pointed out:
the roof contour was wrong;
Compare the fans on the roof, shape and size only approximates the real thing.
Never mind any prototype specific details, must the basic shell is very very crude by modern standards, low fidelity basically.
The F7 shell also follows a fairly rare version and has steam generator details molded in at the rear of the roof. The typical, peas in a pod, F7 had no steam generator. Back in the early 1980's I started to try to get a shell into shape to make an F9A out of it for the Rio Grande Zephyr and it was a chore getting those steam generator details off without damaging or removing the rivit detail. But the show stopper was getting the late style louvers (vertical slit) and I never did overcome that one.
brennangregoIn short, I just want to know how unprototypical blue box f7s really are, especially compared to more modern offerings.
Whether the old Athearn/Globe shell bothers you, or has noticeable inaccuracies compared to newer offerings, will depend on your own perceptions more than anything. If you know what a real F7 looks like, and care that your models match closely, the old shell may or may not be a problem.
Here's the blue box shell. The number boards, windows, and other contours differ quite a bit from the prototype. Grilles, fans, and other details are crude by today's standards.
The Athearn Genesis model gets all these contours and proportions just about dead on.
Do some image searches, and decide for yourself.
Rob Spangler
The gray SP Athearn F7A Rob posted a photo of is the last Athearn blue box F7 I had possession of.
Athearn has put nice paint jobs on the old shell on their RTR and newer Roundhouse F7's , but the shell is basically the same one shown above.
As most have said, it's your call.
History note:
Globe Models was a Chicago based maker of wood and metal rolling stock kits in the 40's and early 50's.
Athearn bought Globe, then used the Globe name for the early market testing of the plastic line. The F7, the streamlined passengers cars, and the first few plastic freight cars were only briefly marketed under the Globe name before being "brought over" to the Athearn line.
If you find any of those old Globe items, you will notice they have Athearn's same California address on the boxes and instructions, and during the transition, you might buy a kit in a Globe box with "Athearn" printed on the instructions.
After Athearn ownership, the Globe name only lasted two/three more years.
Irv was afraid plastic models would give his company a bad name, turned out just the opposite, the Globe plastic line was a total runaway success, and Athearn could not get their own name on those products fast enough.
Compared to the Varney F3 plastic shell, the Athearn F7 was scale model perfection back then in 1954............
Sheldon
A few other thoughts,
Like a few others who replied here, I'm more about the "three foot impression" of a model rather than the museum inspection from 3 inches.....
Don't get me wrong, I like well detailed correct models, but I'm not selling off 40 years worth of building and gathering to buy expensive RTR models just to make sure every model is "perfect", because they still won't be........
Would I bother to buy another Blue Box F7 set and super detail them with GSB cab interiors and dressup kits - no. Am I going to sell, throw away or stop running the set I built 25 years ago - no.
My prefered F unit today is Genesis or Intermountain.
But, a Blue Box 40' box car is still OK to me...........especially as 50 of them roll by pulled by four F7's.........
Just as an amusing comment on these faithful old war horses, I recall a hobby shop incident from about fifty years ago. One of the local main men, an object similar to today's rivet counter, was pontificating to a few of us youthful commoners about these units. He wasn't specific about their unpardonable sins and crimes, just that they were awful and unfit for a true modeler's pike. And then he produced his newly acquired masterpiece, a four unit set of Tenshodo GN FT's!!!
I started laughing, thinking it was a joke. I mean these things made Irv's cab unit look like a museum piece rendered by a later day Rembrandt. It eventually dawned on me that he was glaring at me with a straight face. He stormed out of the place muttering profanely and we all broke out laughing, including the store clerk.
I can see the finer details of the Genesis, and that the windows seem to curve a bit differently than the BB. Other than that, I think they look no different.
Edit: Upon closer inspection, it looks like the top headlight of the BB sticks out a bit too far, but it may be the thicker lens material than the actual housing lacking accuracy. I cant see a difference in contours or such.
Well they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Perhaps if viewed in person and not in photos at different angles you would see but perhaps not.
John
riogrande5761 Yes, I debated getting the Atlas FP7 for years but ultimately couldn't bring myself to open my wallet when there were so many other better looking models I could spend my money on.
Yes, I debated getting the Atlas FP7 for years but ultimately couldn't bring myself to open my wallet when there were so many other better looking models I could spend my money on.
Quite true. The Atlas FP7 had cast-on railings (unlike the Athearn) and the steam generator hatch was far too wide. I am currently looking forward to my BN/NP FP7 from Athearn.
Ed
ACYThe Athearn Blue Box F7 dates back to the early production by Globe in the 1950's. The overall look was close enough to satisfy the modelers of the day. Actually, the typical model railroader of that era didn't know the difference between an FT and an F7, and many didn't even know that they weren't the same as E units!
Funny thing that old heads could name every part on a steam engine,knew the various classes and sub classes of steam engines on their favorite road and some even knew a Alco RS-3 from a EMD GP7 and knew a 6 axle diesel from a 4 axle but,diesels was still new and replacing their beloved steam and therefore hated by the majority of the modelers.
PRR8259 Well they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Perhaps if viewed in person and not in photos at different angles you would see but perhaps not. John
Yeah, just like beauty, not everything matters to me. I don't think its a matter of not being able to notice it, I think its a matter of not caring enough about it to take the time to notice it.
For example, for the EX NYC future Conrail GP20R in my avatar, I prefer the LL Proto GP20 over the Mantua GP20 because the details are finer and crisper. My model of that loco has to not have dynamic brakes, and I added the proper exhaust stacks and paper air filter box. But the shapes of the hoods and the cab look the same to me. If I took the time to study it, I might notice.
I'm never interested in modeling a locomotive on its "as built date", so things like proper shade of paint color doesn't matter either. Besides, it might misdefine the era of may layout. Since only ONE type of loco on the layout could ever have an as built paint shade, its a lost cause for me anyway. If I modeled the B&O on the day it received its GP35s, my then years old GP9s and RS-1s shouldn't have their new as built paint colors, IMO.
But that would be for my layout and what I care about. Another may not care about every loco and rail car on their layout having the exact same shade of paint.
DoughlessYeah, just like beauty, not everything matters to me. Some things matter and others don't.
I never thought that F7 could win a beauty contest.My all time favorite two BB engines remains the GP7 and SW7 hands down contest over.
Railroads loves playing the detail switch game examples would be:
For better grade crossing protection let's change the horn on the ES12 class from single to Nathan three chimes mounted on the cab roof above its current location and let's blank out the lower window on the fireman's side..This can be done during normal shopping.
Now we see a hodge pode of detail-SW1200 888 has a blank out window and Nathan three chime horns but,its sister 889 still hasn't been changed and due to another order like-dead line the following engines pending sale ES12,881,889 and 893.These engines may never had the changes made and yet some may become upset because models of (say) 881 lacks the mention changes.
And the granddaddy-when was the changes made and on what numbers?
Just like ditch lights-in the mid 80s and and into the 90s CR,CSX and NS units lacked these lights because the change started in the mid 90s.
The Athearn BB F7 was at one time the bulk of my diesel fleet. The detailing was never great but I'm not one who is big on fine detail anyway. It didn't much bother me that it wasn't perfectly to scale either. It looked like an F7 to me. My gripe about Athearn BB, both locos and rolling stock, was their pitiful coupler pockets. You couldn't just drop a standard KD#5 in the F7 although I tried it. Most of my freight cars at one time were BB kits. I hated that metal clip over the plastic pocket. Still do. Accurail has since filled the void left my Athearn leaving the kit market. Quality is just as good and a much better coupler system.
It seems we are oversimplifYing on paint. Engines got repainted periodically so it is possible to see fresh looking older engines next to brand new ones. This was especially true on roads like Santa Fe which took great pride in all motive power.
jecorbett The Athearn BB F7 was at one time the bulk of my diesel fleet. The detailing was never great but I'm not one who is big on fine detail anyway. It didn't much bother me that it wasn't perfectly to scale either. It looked like an F7 to me. My gripe about Athearn BB, both locos and rolling stock, was their pitiful coupler pockets. You couldn't just drop a standard KD#5 in the F7 although I tried it. Most of my freight cars at one time were BB kits. I hated that metal clip over the plastic pocket. Still do. Accurail has since filled the void left my Athearn leaving the kit market. Quality is just as good and a much better coupler system.
There are/where several very simple fixes for the Blue Box F7 coupler pocket.
First, simply use Kadee #37 couplers and drill/tap the existing dimple in the coupler mount on the frame.
Or, get the close coupling diaphragm converion kit from American Limited which has diaphragms and improved coupler pockets that work perfectly.
As for the metal clip covers on freight cars, if you simply bend them more "square" before you install them, they generally work fine. I have about 350 Athearn freight cars......never had any real problems.
I usually body-mounted couplers on Athearn hood-type diesels. A simple platform, built-up from sheet styrene allows use of any type of Kadee coupler, in its own draught gear box, to be screwed in place. Simply use a hacksaw to cut off the metal coupler-mounting extensions from the Athearn frame. This method of coupler mounting will also allow you to close-in the gap in the pilot beneath the coupler:
ATLANTIC CENTRALAs for the metal clip covers on freight cars, if you simply bend them more "square" before you install them, they generally work fine. I have about 350 Athearn freight cars......never had any real problems.
I agree: the clip-on metal covers work perfectly well once they're properly bent.