Is it a rule that for a kit to be classified as a craftsman kit, every aspect of it must be made as difficult to assemble as possible? I am currently constructing the Branchline Laser Art Dubois store. In another thread I have already mentioned how silly I think it is for the windows to come in 5 pieces when one piece window castings are readily available. What has prompted this thread is the interior details for this kit which are sold seperately. I thought when I was buying these I was getting detailed parts (chairs, tables, shelves). Instead what I got were pieces of parts that needed to be assembled. Each shelving section for the drug store section of the structure was three pieces. Those parts were large enough that it was not difficult to assemble, just time consuming. Then I moved on to the restaurant parts. Assembling the booths and the tables tried my patience but I worked through it and got them assembled decently if not superbly. Lastly I began to assemble the chairs. Four pieces each. 20 of them. I never made it to chair number 2. Do the manufacturers understand that much of their customer base is north of 50 years old, some of us well north. Our eyes and our manual dexterity are not what they use to be. Some of these kits require the skills and tools of a jeweler to assemble properly. I wear reading glasses and use tweezers but these tiny, lightweight parts I found to be almost impossible to put together properly. Theoretically these are peel and stick parts but the mating surfaces are so small that CA glue is required and that requires the parts to be quickly position properly. There is no way my ham hands could do that quickly. After spending 10 minutes on just the first chair, I gave up. With 20 chairs needed and 15 minutes per chair, that would require 5 hours for one silly detail and then half them would probably look pretty bad. At this point I went to the Walthers catalog and found Preiser sells preassembled tables(8) and chairs (48) for less than half of what I paid for the Laser Art kit and from the picture, they seem to look every bit as nice as the 4 piece chairs. All they need is a coat of paint and they are read to install.
Another one of my gripes is when I spend a couple hundred dollars for a craftsman kit and find out the scale lumber needs to be cut to fit. When I spend that much for a kit, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect that the parts are already cut to size. Effectively all I'm getting for my money are scratchbuilding supplies and a plan. I've found that to be true of the kits of several companies and needless to say they are getting no more of my business.
In most aspects of our lives, such as home improvement projects for example, we choose whether to spend our time or our money and how much of each. The more time we are willing to spend, the more money we will save. Conversely by spending more of our money, we can save a great deal of our time. Not so with s many of the craftsman kits on the market. We are expected to spend a good deal of our money AND our time. We are paying these companies for the privilage of doing extra labor. It makes no sense to me. Unfortunately I had stockpiled a good number of these kits before I realized how frustrating some of them can be to assemble. I have a couple more to go but that will be it for me. All future structures will either be inexpensive plastic kits which require me to spend my time or they will be prebuilt kits which requires me to spend my money. I am through with products that require me to spend both. Many of the prebuilt structures that have come out in recent years are every bit as detailed as high end craftsman kits and for about the same price or even less. Why would I want to waste my time with expensive kits that require many man hours to produce a structure that is no better looking than the ready made ones.
Everyone has a different opinion. Something else is really annoying you.
Get some cheese to go with your whine and everything will be just fine.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
I feel your frustration, even though I never attempted a kit like this, as I always scratch / kitbash buildings, and also the price of these "craftsman" kits were way more than I ever wanted to spend on a building kit. One of my "rants" on detailed kits, is the tiny grab irons, etc., that need to be applied to Kato, Genisis, and other higher end locos. They are made of a somewhat tough plastic, but you only get a couple of attempts to get them right, or you loose, and you need to substitue with metal ones, like Tichy.
At 66, have the same issue with my sight, as most of us do, as we age. I fixed that problem with the Optivisor, and an assortment of lenses. Walthers sells a nice "kit" with assorted lenses. I usually wear the #3 reading glasses for modeling, and I use the #4 optivisor lens.
And, I did check out Branchline's web site, and it says that the interior kit is extra. I have a station I'm building with an area for a small "grill and snack bar" and I will furnish it with one of, or an assortment of, the many availiable table and chair details parts that I will paint as needed.
Mike.
My You Tube
jecorbett Another one of my gripes is when I spend a couple hundred dollars for a craftsman kit and find out the scale lumber needs to be cut to fit. When I spend that much for a kit, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect that the parts are already cut to size. Effectively all I'm getting for my money are scratchbuilding supplies and a plan. I've found that to be true of the kits of several companies and needless to say they are getting no more of my business. ...... The more time we are willing to spend, the more money we will save. Conversely by spending more of our money, we can save a great deal of our time. Not so with s many of the craftsman kits on the market. We are expected to spend a good deal of our money AND our time. We are paying these companies for the privilage of doing extra labor. It makes no sense to me.
...... The more time we are willing to spend, the more money we will save. Conversely by spending more of our money, we can save a great deal of our time. Not so with s many of the craftsman kits on the market. We are expected to spend a good deal of our money AND our time. We are paying these companies for the privilage of doing extra labor. It makes no sense to me.
Agreed. That's the issue I have with craftsman kits. While its great to feel a sense of accomplishment, and maybe even pay for the right to brag about your modeling prowess, I prefer to spend my money on EITHER labor or parts(technology), not both.
I have a three car driveway that I like to shovel out snow by hand shovel. I feel a sense of accomplishment and save money. My neighbor preferred to buy a power snow thrower.
It should be a trade off. The more money you spend, the more time and effort you should save.
- Douglas
mbinsewi I feel your frustration, even though I never attempted a kit like this, as I always scratch / kitbash buildings, and also the price of these "craftsman" kits were way more than I ever wanted to spend on a building kit. One of my "rants" on detailed kits, is the tiny grab irons, etc., that need to be applied to Kato, Genisis, and other higher end locos. They are made of a somewhat tough plastic, but you only get a couple of attempts to get them right, or you loose, and you need to substitue with metal ones, like Tichy. At 66, have the same issue with my sight, as most of us do, as we age. I fixed that problem with the Optivisor, and an assortment of lenses. Walthers sells a nice "kit" with assorted lenses. I usually wear the #3 reading glasses for modeling, and I use the #4 optivisor lens. And, I did check out Branchline's web site, and it says that the interior kit is extra. I have a station I'm building with an area for a small "grill and snack bar" and I will furnish it with one of, or an assortment of, the many availiable table and chair details parts that I will paint as needed. Mike.
I do have an Optivisor. My problem with it is while it magnifies the part and makes it easier to see, it distorts my depth perception so there is a tradeoff.
If you choose the Branchline interior kit, understand what you are getting. Tiny pieces to be assembled. The booths once assembled (not an easy task) are a nice feature. If it's just tables and chairs you want, the Preiser package looks like the more attractive option, at least to me. I ordered one this morning and they are listed on the Walthers website as being in stock. The product description doesn't indicate they are preassembled but Walthers has it categorized as ready-to-use which I hope means no assembly required. I will be painting them but I can do that in seconds with a rattle can.
jecorbett...I have already mentioned how silly I think it is for the windows to come in 5 pieces when one piece window castings are readily available.
A one-piece window from injection molded plastic is fine for a manufacturer with that equipment available, and they only offer so many different types. Maybe cast soft metal windows could be substituted, but they can have oversized cross sections in the smaller scales. With a laser cut wood kit, the manufacturer typically creates assemblies using layers of material. It allows a lot of flexibility in producing unique windows and other details without sinking the investment in castings, and they can be finer in appearance too.
Do the manufacturers understand that much of their customer base is north of 50 years old, some of us well north. ...Some of these kits require the skills and tools of a jeweler to assemble properly. I wear reading glasses and use tweezers but these tiny, lightweight parts I found to be almost impossible to put together properly. ...There is no way my ham hands could do that quickly. ...When I spend that much for a kit, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect that the parts are already cut to size. ...We are paying these companies for the privilage of doing extra labor. It makes no sense to me.
Your observations suggest that the real problem is the craftsman kits aren't a good match for your skills and goals. In other words, you aren't really part of "their customer base."
Some of us enjoy putting these things together, and find the assembly process to be rewarding. The manufacturers provide walls, windows, trim, and so on that save work over scratchbuilding, but there's still a lot to do. I don't mind cutting parts to length, or building up assemblies from multiple laters. These products aren't for everybody, and I doubt most of the kit companies expect the average hobbyist to want to build them. These are specialty products, that cost more because they are of relatively limited production, thus lacking the economies of scale that allow mass-market kits to be sold for less, and with their simpler parts.
I built this depot, and the adjacent tool house, from laser wood kits. I appreciated the windows and trim being cut from different layers of wood, so I could position some windows in the open position, and paint various things in contrasting colors to match the prototype paint scheme. Finishing this model would have been much more time consuming with one-piece castings, plus this model wasn't available in a simple plastic kit. It was either use the craftsman kit or scratchbuild. I didn't mind paying extra for the privilege of getting the structure in kit form, or to fabricate/cut a few parts.
Rob Spangler
Doughless jecorbett Another one of my gripes is when I spend a couple hundred dollars for a craftsman kit and find out the scale lumber needs to be cut to fit. When I spend that much for a kit, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect that the parts are already cut to size. Effectively all I'm getting for my money are scratchbuilding supplies and a plan. I've found that to be true of the kits of several companies and needless to say they are getting no more of my business. ...... The more time we are willing to spend, the more money we will save. Conversely by spending more of our money, we can save a great deal of our time. Not so with s many of the craftsman kits on the market. We are expected to spend a good deal of our money AND our time. We are paying these companies for the privilage of doing extra labor. It makes no sense to me. Agreed. That's the issue I have with craftsman kits. While its great to feel a sense of accomplishment, and maybe even pay for the right to brag about your modeling prowess, I prefer to spend my money on EITHER labor or parts(technology), not both. I have a three car driveway that I like to shovel out snow by hand shovel. I feel a sense of accomplishment and save money. My neighbor preferred to buy a power snow thrower. It should be a trade off. The more money you spend, the more time and effort you should save.
I'm not opposed to doing difficult tasks if it produces something that is worth the effort. What irritates me is difficulty for the sake of making things difficult which it seems to be what many of these craftsman kits come with. The window casings and the unassembled chairs are a perfect example of that. Both are available preassembled so why require it be done the hard way? One of the arguments for the unassembled window casings is they allow you build them with the window open. FSM kits come with some metal window castings in the raised position. Someone else mention he liked the finer muntins that the Branchline windows have. If he hadn't mentioned that to me, I never would have noticed. In either case, the benefits are hardly worth the additional time it requires to assemble these windows. As for the chairs, I suppose someone might argue the Branchline chairs are nicer than the preassembled Preiser chairs. That's assuming of course you are able to assemble them properly, a very difficult task. And even if that is true, it is an interior detail. It doesn't need to be great looking. It is going to be difficult to see anyway. All it needs to really do is help fill an empty space. Museum quality is hardly needed.
wp8thsub Your observations suggest that the real problem is the craftsman kits aren't a good match for your skills and goals. In other words, you aren't really part of "their customer base."
Not any more.
If there are enough modelers like you who are willing to put the extra effort for what seems to me to be minimal benefit, than I guess these companies will keep producing these kind of products but they won't be getting any more of my money.
jecorbettIf there are enough modelers like you who are willing to put the extra effort for what seems to me to be minimal benefit, than I guess these companies will keep producing these kind of products but they won't be getting any more of my money.
Here's the thing... the benefit to me isn't at all minimal. With my depot in the post above, the craftsman kit manufacturer had the structure I wanted, and nobody else did. Thanks to all the precisely cut parts, it was much easier to assemble than scratchbuilding. Plus it had custom-sized windows I couldn't buy elsewhere, and the layers of laser cut material made painting the separate colors easy before assembly. All those features amounted to a significant benefit over the alternative (i.e. scratchbuilding). In other words, the laser kit aligned precisely with what I wanted. Because I've been scratchbuilding and working on craftsman kits for decades, it wasn't particularly challenging for me to put together. It was mostly enjoyable and relaxing.
Now, if I didn't care to have a prototypically accurate structure with fine details, the craftsman kit wouldn't offer much. It would amount to extra work, and more expense, compared to a simpler plastic model.
What irritates me is difficulty for the sake of making things difficult which it seems to be what many of these craftsman kits come with. The window casings and the unassembled chairs are a perfect example of that. Both are available preassembled so why require it be done the hard way?
It's pretty simple. The cost of making proprietary castings can be prohibitive. For many, if not most, of the craftsman buildings out there with multi-part windows, the necessary window is not available in a casting. You can deal with building up the window assemblies, or with incorrect or oversized parts. For models like company standard structures, details like that can make a big difference. It's not about difficulty for the sake of it. It's about using available technology to offer a part where none would otherwise exist.
Again, what craftsman kits offer is not important to you as a customer, so you see the necessary assembly steps as undue burden, and the cost necessary to offer limited product runs as too much expense. Everybody has different priorities, and models that require a lot of fabrication or delicate assembly aren't for you. There's nothing really wrong with that. For those of us who like this type of modeling, however, such kits may be perfect for us, at least in certain situations.
Here's a scene I've been working on lately. It uses a barn and silo that started with very simple Walthers plastic kits. I added a scratchbuilt foundation and lean-to on the barn, and cut in a number of Grandt Line windows. With the amount of extra effort involved, this structure took just as long to build as a wood kit, but was selected because it gave me the starting point I wanted. I also invested a lot of time on paint and weathering. Thus, I took a basic model and intentionally made it a lot more difficult and time consuming. In the end I got the result I was after, so I'm fine with the extra work.
So, when I choose a craftsman kit, it isn't necesarily going to involve more time or work than when I use a plastic model. I scratchbuild, kitbash, and otherwise modify at will, so I expect that any structure project can be quite involved. Therefore all that's required to build a craftsman kit doesn't seem excessive. I'm just used to it.
Since i was directly involved as a test builder for a few firms, I can tell you the cost of plastic windows is far greater than the laser cut, even when bought in bulk (forgot the exact difference but one of the owners answered that question as I asked it too). You got to look at it this way, the cost to stock varius windows along with the storage vs material that can be used for other projects. For a kit manufacturer this is a no brainer, except there are a lot of us that prefer the plastic windows. At least one manufacture inclues the laser cut ones in the kit but also will sell a package with all the plastic ones as a separate item.
Rob, excellent buildings, as I feel about all your work. That silo looks so real, I had to keep looking! I have spent many hours in those, as a kid, pitching silage.
There is a saying that people vote with their dollars and Branchline won't be getting my vote in the future.
mbinsewiThat silo looks so real, I had to keep looking! I have spent many hours in those, as a kid, pitching silage.
Thanks, Mike! I don't think that thing turned out too bad for a kit that consisted of only six separate parts! It's http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-3332 .
A very interesting thread. Some would view all the extra assembly required as being a plus since the dollar cost per hour of assembly "enjoyment" is reduced the longer it takes to put something together.
On the other hand it seems that some would like part of a kit to be RTR. A fine line between totally needs assembly and totally RTR it becomes.
When I was younger and still had reasonable detail eyesight and more dextrous hands, I couldn't afford craftsmen quality kits. Now that I'm older and can finally afford craftsmen kits, I no longer have the eyesight or dexterity to build them. Isn't life grand?
Hornblower
While I have a few of the newer laser cut unbuilt kits, most of my craftsman kit buildings were from Campbell, purchased back when none were over $20. They are really nice kits with cast windows and doors. If you aren't looking for a specific prototype, the can be found at train shows and on eBay at prices close to the list prices of 25 years ago. As I push 70, the optivisor, good tweezers and a bright work light are required. Building craftsman kits are part of the enjoyment of the hobby for many of us. For those that can't or won't devote the necessary time, there are plenty of well done plastic building kits and ready to run cars and locos.
I think this is clearly a case of "to each his own".
I love the challenge of assembling the smaller parts. I have scratch built a few HO scale chairs in the past (notice I said "a few"). I also love the paint detail that can be achieved with the multi-piece laser cut window assemblies.
I also fully respect those who do not enjoy that sort of detail work. I rarely try to make my own windows.
It's very much a personal preference for everybody. There is no 'right' or 'wrong'.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
hon30critter I think this is clearly a case of "to each his own". I love the challenge of assembling the smaller parts. I have scratch built a few HO scale chairs in the past (notice I said "a few"). I also love the paint detail that can be achieved with the multi-piece laser cut window assemblies. I also fully respect those who do not enjoy that sort of detail work. I rarely try to make my own windows. It's very much a personal preference for everybody. There is no 'right' or 'wrong'. Dave
There's no denying that assembling window casings from seperate parts does make it easier to paint them different colors. To that I would ask how often do you see windows in the prototype world painted different colors. How often do you see the window frames painted a different color than the sashes? Same with doors. How oftendo you see the panels painted a different color from the rails and stiles. I'm sure there are examples of this but it is not the norm and for the same reason. It would require extra effort to paint these a different color and most people are not going to put forth that effort. It does make these details standout to paint them different colors but it is not the norm. Most windows and doors you seen are painted a uniform color because that is the most efficient way to do it. That is as true of the prototype world as it is in the modeling world.
I would agree with the OP on the narrow point that there is no one agreed-upon meaning to the phrase "craftsman kit" (or Walthers' preferred "craft train kit") and the same phrase includes kits with molded plastic or metal windows and doors where all the wood is cut to length, and kits with lengths of stripwood, hopefully color coded, a set of instructions (often little more than a scale drawing) and a cheerful "go at it." Essentially: scratchbuilding but someone else went shopping for you.
Consequence is, you don't know what a particular manufacturer means by the phrase craftsman kit until you buy one.
By the way, in my own modeling lifetime I have seen kits such as the old Silver Streak freight car line go from being termed "easy to assemble" to being "craft train kits."
I do not complain because I never was, likely never will be, and in any event would never think of myself as, a "craftsman." To me the phrase means "beware." I do sometimes use Sears Craftsman tools. Just not very successfully.
I am reminded that Linn Westcott the former MR editor took strong exception to models being called scratchbuilt which used prefab windows or doors or other parts. To him the phrase meant everything was scratchbuilt from raw materials. He felt another word or phrase would be needed to describe a structure where the walls, roof, etc were scratchbuilt but the windows and doors were store-bought. I think even the NMRA has accepted the scratchbuilt phrase to allow some purchased parts for achievement program purposes. So when scratchbuilt no longer means just one agreed-on thing, it is no surprise that "craftsman kits" has an even more ambiguous meaning.
Dave Nelson
hornblower When I was younger and still had reasonable detail eyesight and more dextrous hands, I couldn't afford craftsmen quality kits. Now that I'm older and can finally afford craftsmen kits, I no longer have the eyesight or dexterity to build them. Isn't life grand?
I'm in the same boat. That's why from now on I'll spend that extra money I have on prebuilt kits which are probably even less expensive than similar craftsman kits and save a lot of time and frustration. I have enough of the latter in my life. I don't need to buy extra.
Hi jecorbett:
"...I also love the paint detail that can be achieved with the multi-piece laser cut window assemblies...."
I'm sorry, I didn't word that very well.
You are right. The pieces of windows and doors are almost always the same colour. I didn't intend to imply that multi piece windows would have different colours in them. However, they are almost always a different colour from the walls around them. What I was referring to is the accuracy that can be achieved in the deliniation between the wall and window/door colours when the window/door trim can be painted separately from the walls. That would be true of separate molded windows/doors as well of course, but I suspect that cost considerations are at work there.
When the windows and doors are molded into the walls I have a difficult time getting nice straight paint lines between them. In fact, I have several Merchants' Row kitbashed buildings to paint and I am not looking forward to the task. Masking them is about as attractive a prospect to me as building HO chairs is to you, and my brush painting skills are the pits. I know the Merchants' Row kits don't qualify as 'craftsman' kits but if I had a choice between the molded in details and separate details I would go for the latter.
I guess my pet peeve is somewhat the opposite of yours. I don't like not having the separate parts. Prototypical molded windows/doors for each kit would be the ideal but the cost is clearly prohibitive.
By the way, I had a roofing customer a few years ago who had painted her house in every colour of the rainbow, including the window parts. Needless to say, it was a bit of a shock to the system when you first saw it!
I wasn't intending to find fault with your points. They are all valid.
Regards
jecorbett I'm not opposed to doing difficult tasks if it produces something that is worth the effort. What irritates me is difficulty for the sake of making things difficult which it seems to be what many of these craftsman kits come with. The window casings and the unassembled chairs are a perfect example of that. Both are available preassembled so why require it be done the hard way? One of the arguments for the unassembled window casings is they allow you build them with the window open. FSM kits come with some metal window castings in the raised position. Someone else mention he liked the finer muntins that the Branchline windows have. If he hadn't mentioned that to me, I never would have noticed. In either case, the benefits are hardly worth the additional time it requires to assemble these windows. As for the chairs, I suppose someone might argue the Branchline chairs are nicer than the preassembled Preiser chairs. That's assuming of course you are able to assemble them properly, a very difficult task. And even if that is true, it is an interior detail. It doesn't need to be great looking. It is going to be difficult to see anyway. All it needs to really do is help fill an empty space. Museum quality is hardly needed.
What I took away from your OP was that the kit was pricey despite not having cast furnishings and windows. It seemed to be about the lack of tradeoff between price of the kit and labor/talent needed to assemble it than just the amount of talent/labor (and time) needed by itself.
I also think you mentioned that some of the lumber was not pre-cut.
IMO, a "kit" that is nothing more than a pile of sticks and instructions should cost no more than $15, but I suppose there is more to it than that.
It seemed like your OP was saying that you didn't feel like you got your money's worth as far as compensating the producer for what effort they put into their product. That a little more work on their end would make it easier to assemble with no loss of detail or accuracy.
jecorbett hon30critter I think this is clearly a case of "to each his own". I love the challenge of assembling the smaller parts. I have scratch built a few HO scale chairs in the past (notice I said "a few"). I also love the paint detail that can be achieved with the multi-piece laser cut window assemblies. I also fully respect those who do not enjoy that sort of detail work. I rarely try to make my own windows. It's very much a personal preference for everybody. There is no 'right' or 'wrong'. Dave There's no denying that assembling window casings from seperate parts does make it easier to paint them different colors. To that I would ask how often do you see windows in the prototype world painted different colors. How often do you see the window frames painted a different color than the sashes? Same with doors. How oftendo you see the panels painted a different color from the rails and stiles. I'm sure there are examples of this but it is not the norm and for the same reason. It would require extra effort to paint these a different color and most people are not going to put forth that effort. It does make these details standout to paint them different colors but it is not the norm. Most windows and doors you seen are painted a uniform color because that is the most efficient way to do it. That is as true of the prototype world as it is in the modeling world.
60 to 100 plus years ago when these kinds of wooden buildings were new in real life, it was rather common for window sash and casings to be painted different colors.
For some of us the fun is in the building, if that is not for you, fine.
In my work as a Historic Restoration Designer and Carpenter, we still paint lots of multi colored "Victorian", "Craftsman", and "Colonial Revival" paint schemes on the buildings we restore.
Sheldon
DoughlessIMO, a "kit" that is nothing more than a pile of sticks and instructions should cost no more than $15, but I suppose there is more to it than that.
I hope folks realize that if a manufacturer sells through a distributor, they would get about $6.50 for a $15 kit. How much profit do you think would be in that $6.50 once they paid for materials, packaging, printing, shipping and their time?
Jim
ctyclsscs Doughless IMO, a "kit" that is nothing more than a pile of sticks and instructions should cost no more than $15, but I suppose there is more to it than that. I hope folks realize that if a manufacturer sells through a distributor, they would get about $6.50 for a $15 kit. How much profit do you think would be in that $6.50 once they paid for materials, packaging, printing, shipping and their time? Jim
Doughless IMO, a "kit" that is nothing more than a pile of sticks and instructions should cost no more than $15, but I suppose there is more to it than that.
I understand the problem. The producer needs to get paid for his design and his instructions, his know how, that is where the value of the product is. I'm just saying that I don't feel like I get a lot for my money because I have to put in the time and labor, relative to other options.
Its part of the problem when the entire planet is viewed as a labor force...it makes it really hard to support your own..... and really easy to hire someone at $0.75 an hour to assemble some of it for me. But enough commentary on that.
That's pretty much what a craftsman kit is; more expensive, more complicated, more detailed, and generally a model of an actual prototype. You could by an Athearn BB HW generic passenger car kit 50 years ago for around $3.50 IIRC (decorated, with trucks and X2f couplers) . If you wanted a prototype heavyweight passenger car, you went to Walthers and for about the same price, you got a body kit. You had to shape the roof. If you wanted it to run on the rails, you bought trucks, for about the same price. If you actually wanted to run it in a train, couplers were extra. Interiors cost more and if you were so demented as to want interior lighting, ka-ching, ka-ching. You also needed paint and decals. By the time you were finished, you would have paid well over the inflation adjusted equivalent of $100. Both La Belle and Ambroid kits were, and La Belle kits still are, essentially scratch building exercises with enough precut wood (not necessarily to length) for you to complete the job.
At the current time, there are two different sources for a Southern Pacific CS 22 station, one of which is the latest version of an old Suydam kit that dates back to the 50's. http://www.alpinemodels.com/catalog/item/2762955/2639756.htm It's relatively inexpensive, but it leaves a lot to be desired. The American Model Builders laser kit is $90 more, but it does a much better job of replicating the prototype station. http://laserkit.com/images/176.jpg To AMB's credit, they make both the "left hand" and "right hand" versions. http://laserkit.com/images/134.jpg These are not available pre-built.
That's pretty much the definition of a craftsman kit. You're expected to put some time and effort into putting it together. The June, 1959 issue of MR had an article by Gib Kennedy on scratchbuilding a Canadian Pacific 5 car wooden passenger train. The only real difference between that and this https://www.labellemodels.com/manuals/HO-1%20Instructions.pdf is that you do a little more cutting to scratchbuild one of the CPR passenger cars. Either way, it's a lot of repetitive and time consuming tasks.
Andre
To me the advantage of kits is that all the parts are provided in one box and there are instructions. Otherwise you're on your own to round up all the parts and figure out to build the thing - unless you're following a good magazine article. Having built craftsman kits as well as screwdriver kits, scratch/parts built and nearly RTR, I would say they are all enjoyable. But they are different in terms of time required. A LaBelle kit makes a nice introduction into scratch/parts building wooden cars.
Older craftsman kits tend to leave more for the builder to do. Also the parts can be coarser. I have an old Quality Craft kit where the door handles on a boxcar are to be made by bending wire. But the wire was supplied - you just cut it to length, bent it, and drilled a hole for it.
One of the reasons I switched from HO to S was the parts are bigger. Easier to see and work with.
Enjoy
Paul
Doughless jecorbett I'm not opposed to doing difficult tasks if it produces something that is worth the effort. What irritates me is difficulty for the sake of making things difficult which it seems to be what many of these craftsman kits come with. The window casings and the unassembled chairs are a perfect example of that. Both are available preassembled so why require it be done the hard way? One of the arguments for the unassembled window casings is they allow you build them with the window open. FSM kits come with some metal window castings in the raised position. Someone else mention he liked the finer muntins that the Branchline windows have. If he hadn't mentioned that to me, I never would have noticed. In either case, the benefits are hardly worth the additional time it requires to assemble these windows. As for the chairs, I suppose someone might argue the Branchline chairs are nicer than the preassembled Preiser chairs. That's assuming of course you are able to assemble them properly, a very difficult task. And even if that is true, it is an interior detail. It doesn't need to be great looking. It is going to be difficult to see anyway. All it needs to really do is help fill an empty space. Museum quality is hardly needed. What I took away from your OP was that the kit was pricey despite not having cast furnishings and windows. It seemed to be about the lack of tradeoff between price of the kit and labor/talent needed to assemble it than just the amount of talent/labor (and time) needed by itself. I also think you mentioned that some of the lumber was not pre-cut. IMO, a "kit" that is nothing more than a pile of sticks and instructions should cost no more than $15, but I suppose there is more to it than that. It seemed like your OP was saying that you didn't feel like you got your money's worth as far as compensating the producer for what effort they put into their product. That a little more work on their end would make it easier to assemble with no loss of detail or accuracy.
I think this is the nub of the issue. "Craftsman Kit" isn't a defined term. I'm just getting into building wooden structure kits and, having bought a few, there are wide differences between makers as to what goes into their kits.
It seems to me that those kits that gather the most plaudits tend to have an original, interesting design, probably some specially cast parts and most importantly, full and clear instructions. A friend in Germany sent me the paperwork from an FSM kit that her younger brother had built and the instructions were streets ahead of anything else I've seen - follow Mr Selios' instructions to the letter and you will turn out a creditable model.
Compare that with other makers who provide a sheet of A4 if you are lucky. I think, for me, a good value kit has the walls cut out, all parts provided in sufficient quantities to complete the kit to a good standard and most importantly of all, complete and clear instructions. I am fine with cutting corner posts to length etc but at my stage in modelling, clear intructions are key.
But it doesn't take long to get picky - having a Downtown Deco kit and seen the excellent brick detail achieved with hydrocal, I look askance at any maker who tries to "fob me off" with beautifully neat laser cut wood "brickwork" in an otherwise excellent kit. To each according to his own.
And I really feel that plastic kits have a place (although I'm surprised nobody has thought of providing window / door kits to upgrade some of the older plastic models). I've certainly got several earmarked.
andrechapelonThat's pretty much what a craftsman kit is; more expensive, more complicated, more detailed... ...You're expected to put some time and effort into putting it together.
...You're expected to put some time and effort into putting it together.
That's exactly it. One of these kits isn't intended to be equivalent to a Walthers, Design Preservation, Pikestuff, or other simple plastic model. I suppose I can see the frustration in buying a craftsman kit because you want the structure, only to find it requires a ton of extra work compared to what you can buy for less in a plastic kit. On the other hand, they are different products intended for different customers. If all you want is for something to be finished and on the layout quickly, you aren't the target customer for a craftsman kit.