sfcouple I've built a number of craftsman type kits that were very expensive; however, every minute of the dozens of hours it took to construct them was very enjoyable. This is one aspect of our hobby that I really enjoy, I can go to my workbench cut and glue some sticks together for as long as I want and then go do something else. A sawmill was needed for my logging layout so instead of purchasing a kit the sawmill was constructed completely from scratch. Photos from Paul Templar's Sawmill on his Badger Creek Railroad were the only 'plans' that were used. Ratio and proportion measurements were taken from the photographs, then numerous stripwood packages were ordered and away I went. The attached photograph shows the work in progress, and so far my only expense has been the purchase of the dimensional lumber ~$30. I'm sure some of my measurements were off a little but overall the sawmill looks reasonably proportioned. Wayne
I've built a number of craftsman type kits that were very expensive; however, every minute of the dozens of hours it took to construct them was very enjoyable. This is one aspect of our hobby that I really enjoy, I can go to my workbench cut and glue some sticks together for as long as I want and then go do something else.
A sawmill was needed for my logging layout so instead of purchasing a kit the sawmill was constructed completely from scratch. Photos from Paul Templar's Sawmill on his Badger Creek Railroad were the only 'plans' that were used. Ratio and proportion measurements were taken from the photographs, then numerous stripwood packages were ordered and away I went. The attached photograph shows the work in progress, and so far my only expense has been the purchase of the dimensional lumber ~$30. I'm sure some of my measurements were off a little but overall the sawmill looks reasonably proportioned.
Wayne
Great looking sawmil Wayne!
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Wayne:
The sawmill looks great!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Doughless jecorbett Doughless ctyclsscs You could sort of make the same statement about plastic kits too. If you want to assemble one out of the box without painting, there are kits molded in color that you can do that with. But with others, you do need to paint them, trim and file some parts to fit, and maybe add some extra details. You can take a basic DPM type kit and turn it into a super-detailed structure that can rival some craftsman level kits when you are finished. But as others have said, it's all about how much time and effort you want to put into a model. Not only that, but it allows you to have models that are unique to your layout. Jim I see the difference in terms of price. I like DPM kits. They are simple, but the tooling is fine enough so that custom details don't look out of place. They are relatively labor intensive in terms of painting, but they only cost about 15 to 20 bucks. If they were 40 bucks, I would consider them a waste of my time and buy other $40 kits that have separate parts so that I could the various colors as-is or spray paint them while still on the sprues. As far as the topic of craftsman kits; IMO, part of the draw of craftsman wood kits is that styrene does not represent wood plank siding very well. There is no substitute for wood. Once they have a coat of paint on them, I don't think I could distinguish wood clapboard siding from styrene. Obviously if you are going to stain them instead of painting them, you want real wood. I agree with your assessment of DPM kits. They are inexpensive but more labor intensive in that everything is molded on a single piece and the detail has to be hand painted. That is the tradeoff. Spending more time to save some money. I like being able to choose whether to spend extra time or extra money on a structure but I really don't like it when I have to spend both. I really like the line of snap together plastic kits from Walthers. I used to think that if you didn't paint a plastic kit, the structure would look like unpainted plastic. Not so with some of recent snap together kits from Walthers. I recently assembled the Benson's Five and Dime kit. It came with multi-colored wall sections that need no paint and do not look plastic at all. The windows are multi-colored one piece assemblies as well, frames, sashes, and glazing and they just snap into place. I did paint and weather the roof and did some light weathering on the structure itself and it looks outstanding for a fraction of what a similar craftsman kit would cost. I hope they expand this line because I really believe these kits offer the best value in terms of time and money required to get a really great looking structure. I think some styrene kits represent wood pretty well. I have a couple of those older european tooled stores and freight house that look pretty nice. But I think weathered real wood looks better than weathered styrene wood. JMO. Its why I think the sawmills and dilapitaded structure look works well for craftsman kits. Yeah, for a brand new freshly painted house, it probably doesn't matter.
jecorbett Doughless ctyclsscs You could sort of make the same statement about plastic kits too. If you want to assemble one out of the box without painting, there are kits molded in color that you can do that with. But with others, you do need to paint them, trim and file some parts to fit, and maybe add some extra details. You can take a basic DPM type kit and turn it into a super-detailed structure that can rival some craftsman level kits when you are finished. But as others have said, it's all about how much time and effort you want to put into a model. Not only that, but it allows you to have models that are unique to your layout. Jim I see the difference in terms of price. I like DPM kits. They are simple, but the tooling is fine enough so that custom details don't look out of place. They are relatively labor intensive in terms of painting, but they only cost about 15 to 20 bucks. If they were 40 bucks, I would consider them a waste of my time and buy other $40 kits that have separate parts so that I could the various colors as-is or spray paint them while still on the sprues. As far as the topic of craftsman kits; IMO, part of the draw of craftsman wood kits is that styrene does not represent wood plank siding very well. There is no substitute for wood. Once they have a coat of paint on them, I don't think I could distinguish wood clapboard siding from styrene. Obviously if you are going to stain them instead of painting them, you want real wood. I agree with your assessment of DPM kits. They are inexpensive but more labor intensive in that everything is molded on a single piece and the detail has to be hand painted. That is the tradeoff. Spending more time to save some money. I like being able to choose whether to spend extra time or extra money on a structure but I really don't like it when I have to spend both. I really like the line of snap together plastic kits from Walthers. I used to think that if you didn't paint a plastic kit, the structure would look like unpainted plastic. Not so with some of recent snap together kits from Walthers. I recently assembled the Benson's Five and Dime kit. It came with multi-colored wall sections that need no paint and do not look plastic at all. The windows are multi-colored one piece assemblies as well, frames, sashes, and glazing and they just snap into place. I did paint and weather the roof and did some light weathering on the structure itself and it looks outstanding for a fraction of what a similar craftsman kit would cost. I hope they expand this line because I really believe these kits offer the best value in terms of time and money required to get a really great looking structure.
Doughless ctyclsscs You could sort of make the same statement about plastic kits too. If you want to assemble one out of the box without painting, there are kits molded in color that you can do that with. But with others, you do need to paint them, trim and file some parts to fit, and maybe add some extra details. You can take a basic DPM type kit and turn it into a super-detailed structure that can rival some craftsman level kits when you are finished. But as others have said, it's all about how much time and effort you want to put into a model. Not only that, but it allows you to have models that are unique to your layout. Jim I see the difference in terms of price. I like DPM kits. They are simple, but the tooling is fine enough so that custom details don't look out of place. They are relatively labor intensive in terms of painting, but they only cost about 15 to 20 bucks. If they were 40 bucks, I would consider them a waste of my time and buy other $40 kits that have separate parts so that I could the various colors as-is or spray paint them while still on the sprues. As far as the topic of craftsman kits; IMO, part of the draw of craftsman wood kits is that styrene does not represent wood plank siding very well. There is no substitute for wood.
ctyclsscs You could sort of make the same statement about plastic kits too. If you want to assemble one out of the box without painting, there are kits molded in color that you can do that with. But with others, you do need to paint them, trim and file some parts to fit, and maybe add some extra details. You can take a basic DPM type kit and turn it into a super-detailed structure that can rival some craftsman level kits when you are finished. But as others have said, it's all about how much time and effort you want to put into a model. Not only that, but it allows you to have models that are unique to your layout. Jim
You could sort of make the same statement about plastic kits too. If you want to assemble one out of the box without painting, there are kits molded in color that you can do that with. But with others, you do need to paint them, trim and file some parts to fit, and maybe add some extra details. You can take a basic DPM type kit and turn it into a super-detailed structure that can rival some craftsman level kits when you are finished. But as others have said, it's all about how much time and effort you want to put into a model. Not only that, but it allows you to have models that are unique to your layout.
Jim
I see the difference in terms of price. I like DPM kits. They are simple, but the tooling is fine enough so that custom details don't look out of place. They are relatively labor intensive in terms of painting, but they only cost about 15 to 20 bucks.
If they were 40 bucks, I would consider them a waste of my time and buy other $40 kits that have separate parts so that I could the various colors as-is or spray paint them while still on the sprues.
As far as the topic of craftsman kits; IMO, part of the draw of craftsman wood kits is that styrene does not represent wood plank siding very well. There is no substitute for wood.
Once they have a coat of paint on them, I don't think I could distinguish wood clapboard siding from styrene. Obviously if you are going to stain them instead of painting them, you want real wood.
I agree with your assessment of DPM kits. They are inexpensive but more labor intensive in that everything is molded on a single piece and the detail has to be hand painted. That is the tradeoff. Spending more time to save some money. I like being able to choose whether to spend extra time or extra money on a structure but I really don't like it when I have to spend both.
I really like the line of snap together plastic kits from Walthers. I used to think that if you didn't paint a plastic kit, the structure would look like unpainted plastic. Not so with some of recent snap together kits from Walthers. I recently assembled the Benson's Five and Dime kit. It came with multi-colored wall sections that need no paint and do not look plastic at all. The windows are multi-colored one piece assemblies as well, frames, sashes, and glazing and they just snap into place. I did paint and weather the roof and did some light weathering on the structure itself and it looks outstanding for a fraction of what a similar craftsman kit would cost. I hope they expand this line because I really believe these kits offer the best value in terms of time and money required to get a really great looking structure.
I think some styrene kits represent wood pretty well. I have a couple of those older european tooled stores and freight house that look pretty nice.
But I think weathered real wood looks better than weathered styrene wood. JMO.
Its why I think the sawmills and dilapitaded structure look works well for craftsman kits. Yeah, for a brand new freshly painted house, it probably doesn't matter.
I was going to stay out of this part of this discussion, but it goes on, so here are my thoughts.
I restore old houses for a living, I know all about neglected, deteriorated wood, AND about what wood structures from 100 years ago looked like when new.
Personally, no wood that we can make a model out of has "HO scale" wood grain.....so even as an effect for a weathered building it is grossly oversized.
That said, I will agreee that some such structures "convey" the "emotion" of a distressed building, even if it is not to scale.
Brand new wood siding, today or in 1900, is smooth as a baby's bottom and paints up smooth with NO WOOD GRAIN SHOWING (one reason why I hate modern vinyl siding, but that's another story for a different forum).
So, I think in most cases plastic structures can be painted to look just as relaistic, or even more so, than wood structures.
And, while I understand the idea of depicting real life, I am really not interested in the Franklin and South Manchester look - even in the worst times, no citiy in this country looked like that - it is depressing.......the depression was not that depressing.....
In 1900, or 1925, or 1938, or 1953, people liked new, fresh, well maintained, quality built just as much as they do today - if not more so.
Sure, not everything is perfectly maintained all the time - but everything is not all run down at the same time either.......
I build wood craftsman kits for the fun, I also build plastic, kit bash, scratch build, etc. I like a little light weathering, I don't build many highly distressed buildings or locos, or rolling stock.
My rant over,
Sheldon
Sheldon:
Good rant! I totally agree. Too much deterioration is depressing for me too. It can be great as a single item, like an abandoned farm house in the middle of a field, or a Downtown Deco scene, but to have major portions of the layout depicted as being totally decrepit is a bit much for my tastes. Others are free to do as they wish of course, and I do admire their modelling skills.
On the other hand, having everything brand spanking new turns me off as well! There has to be some depiction of real life and that includes signs of aging and neglect as well as things that are reasonably well maintained.
"Each to his own".
hon30critter---Geared Steam, Thank you.
Still have a ways to go but it's progressing. BTW, this sawmill is being constructed to look like a recently built structure and not one in dilapidated condition.
Thanks again,
Modeling HO Freelance Logging Railroad.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I was going to stay out of this part of this discussion, but it goes on, so here are my thoughts. I restore old houses for a living, I know all about neglected, deteriorated wood, AND about what wood structures from 100 years ago looked like when new. Personally, no wood that we can make a model out of has "HO scale" wood grain.....so even as an effect for a weathered building it is grossly oversized. That said, I will agreee that some such structures "convey" the "emotion" of a distressed building, even if it is not to scale. Brand new wood siding, today or in 1900, is smooth as a baby's bottom and paints up smooth with NO WOOD GRAIN SHOWING (one reason why I hate modern vinyl siding, but that's another story for a different forum). So, I think in most cases plastic structures can be painted to look just as relaistic, or even more so, than wood structures. And, while I understand the idea of depicting real life, I am really not interested in the Franklin and South Manchester look - even in the worst times, no citiy in this country looked like that - it is depressing.......the depression was not that depressing..... In 1900, or 1925, or 1938, or 1953, people liked new, fresh, well maintained, quality built just as much as they do today - if not more so. Sure, not everything is perfectly maintained all the time - but everything is not all run down at the same time either....... I build wood craftsman kits for the fun, I also build plastic, kit bash, scratch build, etc. I like a little light weathering, I don't build many highly distressed buildings or locos, or rolling stock. My rant over, Sheldon
I tend to agree. Its not so much about seeing the wood grain that is important but the ability to weather the structure to give it that dilapidated look. Newly constructed or well maintained wood structures can be equally well represented with wood or styrene. Getting that FSM run-down look, especially with boards falling off or roof trusses exposed, works best with wood craftsman kits, IMO. And I don't care much for that look either.
- Douglas
That's what I thought (about Kibri making the kits). I don't know for a certainty, but I don't think Walthers has been getting any totally new kits from them. I think most are made in China now.
You're right about Magnuson. They converted some of the kits to plastic and then sold off the line. Most of their "new" Trainline kits were Pola kits that were sold by AHM, IHC, Tyco, Model Power and others. Somehow Faller wound up with the Pola line, so I think they're making them now. As I understand it, some of the molds have been cleaned up and they've written new instructions for them.
Don't forget about Heljan too. They made most of the Walthers structure kits for a good while.
So to come full circle, just as we discussed craftsman kits varying by manufacturer, you can also have different levels of plastic kits. In this case, they can be different levels under the same name. Although, really, the folks already mentioned (Model Power, IHC, Tyco, etc.) all sold kits from different suppiers under their name for years.
There might be some kind of lesson to be learned here, but I don't know what it is.
hon30critter Sheldon: Good rant! I totally agree. Too much deterioration is depressing for me too. It can be great as a single item, like an abandoned farm house in the middle of a field, or a Downtown Deco scene, but to have major portions of the layout depicted as being totally decrepit is a bit much for my tastes. Others are free to do as they wish of course, and I do admire their modelling skills. On the other hand, having everything brand spanking new turns me off as well! There has to be some depiction of real life and that includes signs of aging and neglect as well as things that are reasonably well maintained. "Each to his own". Dave
Agreed, I like to model a prosperous community, with normal dirt, average wear and tear, and just a few "demolition by neglect" structures, as we call them in my business.
Yes, excessively deteriorated structures are a bit off-putting. They remind me of the early Clint Eastwood Sergio Leone films where the railroad looks like it has been abandoned for several generations, but the ostensible time frame is about 5 years after the railroads came into the Southwest. Yes, I have seen, in photos and in real life, individual structures that look like OSHA nightmares; but I have never seen entire cities that looked like Depression-era Boston as it would have been described by Charles Dickens. We do find that on some model railroads.
I often substitute styrene for wood in Craftsman kits in order to eliminate wood grain. In particular, I built some Quality Craft wood cabooses using the "skeleton" from the kit, plus many cast parts from the kit, but substituting scribed styrene for the sides and ends. Wood-sided cars didn't show grain unless they were poorly maintained. One of the great advantages to craftsman kits is that they lend themselves to such substitution and customization.
Tom
Paul3 jecorbett,This has got to be the strangest rant I've ever seen on this forum. My hard-to-build kit is so hard to build! Sheesh. Then don't buy them. There's plenty of Plasticville HO kits around and they're wicked cheap. This is even stranger than your last rant, "How can they get something this wrong" where you complained about giant gas pumps on tall curbs only to find out that giant gas pumps on tall curbs did actually exist. When I was a kid (before High School), I built a 1/48th scale B-17G from Revell. Even tho' I knew no one would ever see the interior details, I painted them anyways. The dash, the bomb bay, the radio compartment... All these areas that you'd need a flashlight, a dental mirror, and perhaps a drill to see, but they all got hand painted by yours truly. Why? Because it was part of the fun and the challenge. The fact that I knew it was there and done right (or at least done as well as I could do) gave me more satisfaction than not doing it. If you think HO craftsman kits are too difficult, try 1/350th scale ship modeling. A friend of mine does this, and he built a model of WWII aircraft carrier for a customer. He actually had to put in interior cockpit details in every plane on the deck. It's etched brass that folds into an open box that has to be inserted in each 1/350th scale airplane...and the kicker is that each one also has to have a joystick ACC'd in place. And you think a 4-part HO scale chair is too much trouble? Try these: http://www.hobbylinc.com/gr/wem/wem3548.jpg As far as costs go, every second using the laser costs money. A kit with a ton of parts will always cost more than one with few parts. Cost of materials is generally pretty low. It's how these craftsman kit makers stay in business (it certainly isn't by number of kits sold). One manufacturer told me that his boxes wtih labels cost more than what's in them. But the time to make those parts? That's what costs real money. And that's not even counting design time and just writing the assembly directions. Paul A. Cutler III
jecorbett,This has got to be the strangest rant I've ever seen on this forum. My hard-to-build kit is so hard to build! Sheesh. Then don't buy them. There's plenty of Plasticville HO kits around and they're wicked cheap. This is even stranger than your last rant, "How can they get something this wrong" where you complained about giant gas pumps on tall curbs only to find out that giant gas pumps on tall curbs did actually exist.
When I was a kid (before High School), I built a 1/48th scale B-17G from Revell. Even tho' I knew no one would ever see the interior details, I painted them anyways. The dash, the bomb bay, the radio compartment... All these areas that you'd need a flashlight, a dental mirror, and perhaps a drill to see, but they all got hand painted by yours truly. Why? Because it was part of the fun and the challenge. The fact that I knew it was there and done right (or at least done as well as I could do) gave me more satisfaction than not doing it.
If you think HO craftsman kits are too difficult, try 1/350th scale ship modeling. A friend of mine does this, and he built a model of WWII aircraft carrier for a customer. He actually had to put in interior cockpit details in every plane on the deck. It's etched brass that folds into an open box that has to be inserted in each 1/350th scale airplane...and the kicker is that each one also has to have a joystick ACC'd in place. And you think a 4-part HO scale chair is too much trouble? Try these:
http://www.hobbylinc.com/gr/wem/wem3548.jpg
As far as costs go, every second using the laser costs money. A kit with a ton of parts will always cost more than one with few parts. Cost of materials is generally pretty low. It's how these craftsman kit makers stay in business (it certainly isn't by number of kits sold). One manufacturer told me that his boxes wtih labels cost more than what's in them. But the time to make those parts? That's what costs real money. And that's not even counting design time and just writing the assembly directions.
Paul A. Cutler III
Since you seemed to have missed the point in the OP, let me spell it out for you. I don't object to difficult assembly which produces a significantly better end result. It is difficulty for the sake of being difficult which adds nothing to the quality of the final product. If you would re-read the OP you would see that my main complaint was about the kit having 20 chairs that require 4 tiny lightweight pieces to be assembled with very little mating service between them. Preiser offers a kit with over twice as many preassembled chairs and two more tables than what the Branchline kit offers. They will serve the same purpose for less than half the cost and less than 20% of the effort. I see nothing noble about doing something the most difficult way possible for the sake of doing it the most difficult way possible. That is not my idea of craftsmanship. That is the definition of inefficiency.
As for the gas pumps which you say I incorrectly stated were too big, one such photo was produced which showed gas pumps almost as big as the ones in the branchline kit. It was the exception. The photo was not dated but I would be willing to bet it was not a photo from the 1950s which is the era these gas pumps were supposed to represent. Almost all the photos I looked at showed pumps from the 1950s were about 5 feet high, not 6.5 feet and when placed on top of an oversized island they looked ridiculous. My criticism of those gas pumps was valid.
One of the reasons there is so much overpriced poor quality merchandise in this hobby is we are willing to accept high priced poor quality merchandise. Progress comes when companies strive to meet the demands for more consumer friendly products. We get that in most consumer products we buy but for some reason in this hobby we are willing to accept products that require us to do things the way they were done in the 1950s.
ctyclsscs You're right about Magnuson. They converted some of the kits to plastic and then sold off the line.
You're right about Magnuson. They converted some of the kits to plastic and then sold off the line.
I see most if not all the old Magnuson line now being sold under the Scale Structures LTD label. I haven't bought one of them since that was done buy I'm assuming those are still the resin kits. The kits which Walthers sells are of course styrene versions of the same structures. Merchants Rows I & II are of course originally Magnuson. Merchants Row III I believe is an old Helgan kit that was marketed as a bank building.
jecorbettI don't object to difficult assembly which produces a significantly better end result. It is difficulty for the sake of being difficult which adds nothing to the quality of the final product. If you would re-read the OP you would see that my main complaint was about the kit having 20 chairs that require 4 tiny lightweight pieces to be assembled with very little mating service between them. Preiser offers a kit with over twice as many preassembled chairs and two more tables than what the Branchline kit offers. They will serve the same purpose for less than half the cost and less than 20% of the effort. I see nothing noble about doing something the most difficult way possible for the sake of doing it the most difficult way possible. That is not my idea of craftsmanship. That is the definition of inefficiency.
I think people are busting your chops on this thread because of how you're interpreting the products.
Preiser makes plastic stuff using injection molding. If they're going to make a chair, they'll use a plastic casting.
Branchline's structures and related products are cut from wood using lasers. If they're going to make a chair, they'll cut it from wood sheet.
We're dealing with different manufacturers using the technology available to them. Complaining that Branchline isn't making one-piece plastic parts is like complaining that Preiser doesn't make laser cut wood parts. These are different manufacturers catering to different customer bases.
I can assure you that at no time did anyone at Branchline decide to make a multi-part chair kit while thinking, "Say, let's make this as difficult to assemble as we can, just for the sake of making it difficult. While we're at it, let's make some other interior details, and use multiple pieces for those so they're difficult to assemble too." I think we can be pretty certain they decided to create the details using the manufacturing process available to them, figuring their customers would understand the differences in what they were buying vs the competetition and choose accordingly.
At some point, it's up to the consumer to educate himself about what he's purchasing, and not blame the manufacturers for producing something that's exactly in line with the rest of their offerings. Branchline makes laser cut wood kits and various details, none of which are one-piece plastic castings. Buy something from them, and it should be expected to be composed of flat sheet that requires assembly, which may or may not be easy depending on the specific item. Whether or not the product represents a good value is up to the individual modeler. I know guys who love building the chairs, bookcases and other little details, and would much rather have them than plastic parts because they enjoy the process.
Progress comes when companies strive to meet the demands for more consumer friendly products. We get that in most consumer products we buy but for some reason in this hobby we are willing to accept products that require us to do things the way they were done in the 1950s.
To a modeler who likes working with these items, they're plenty consumer-friendly. The market has niches for consumers with different demands.
Laser cutting technology was not availabe in the 1950s. Back then you made do with relatively crude metal or plastic parts, assuming you could get the parts at all, or scratchbuilt. In the interim, we got better metal and plastic parts, that are still available for those who want them. Finely cut micro plywood detail parts are a product of modern manufacturing methods. If they don't sell, the market will sort things out. You don't like them. I get it. That doesn't mean the products at issue are of low quality or represent a poor value. They may just not be a match for your particular tastes and skills.
We've all made purchasing decisions that amount to learning experiences.
Rob Spangler
ATLANTIC CENTRAL And, while I understand the idea of depicting real life, I am really not interested in the Franklin and South Manchester look - even in the worst times, no citiy in this country looked like that - it is depressing.......the depression was not that depressing..... Sheldon
The depression might not have been, but the South Bronx during WWII was. Things had been run down to begin with. Then, with the war, there were no materials to spare for repairs on non-essential buildings, and no people available to do them. In my neighborhood at that time, if you saw a working-age man he was in uniform.
I feel I have a valid reason for detesting the F&SM 'look.' With my father away and my mother taking it badly, those weren't fun times.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
wp8thsub jecorbett I don't object to difficult assembly which produces a significantly better end result. It is difficulty for the sake of being difficult which adds nothing to the quality of the final product. If you would re-read the OP you would see that my main complaint was about the kit having 20 chairs that require 4 tiny lightweight pieces to be assembled with very little mating service between them. Preiser offers a kit with over twice as many preassembled chairs and two more tables than what the Branchline kit offers. They will serve the same purpose for less than half the cost and less than 20% of the effort. I see nothing noble about doing something the most difficult way possible for the sake of doing it the most difficult way possible. That is not my idea of craftsmanship. That is the definition of inefficiency. I think people are busting your chops on this thread because of how you're interpreting the products. Preiser makes plastic stuff using injection molding. If they're going to make a chair, they'll use a plastic casting. Branchline's structures and related products are cut from wood using lasers. If they're going to make a chair, they'll cut it from wood sheet. We're dealing with different manufacturers using the technology available to them. Complaining that Branchline isn't making one-piece plastic parts is like complaining that Preiser doesn't make laser cut wood parts. These are different manufacturers catering to different customer bases. I can assure you that at no time did anyone at Branchline decide to make a multi-part chair kit while thinking, "Say, let's make this as difficult to assemble as we can, just for the sake of making it difficult. While we're at it, let's make some other interior details, and use multiple pieces for those so they're difficult to assemble too." I think we can be pretty certain they decided to create the details using the manufacturing process available to them, figuring their customers would understand the differences in what they were buying vs the competetition and choose accordingly. At some point, it's up to the consumer to educate himself about what he's purchasing, and not blame the manufacturers for producing something that's exactly in line with the rest of their offerings. Branchline makes laser cut wood kits and various details, none of which are one-piece plastic castings. Buy something from them, and it should be expected to be composed of flat sheet that requires assembly, which may or may not be easy depending on the specific item. Whether or not the product represents a good value is up to the individual modeler. I know guys who love building the chairs, bookcases and other little details, and would much rather have them than plastic parts because they enjoy the process. Progress comes when companies strive to meet the demands for more consumer friendly products. We get that in most consumer products we buy but for some reason in this hobby we are willing to accept products that require us to do things the way they were done in the 1950s. To a modeler who likes working with these items, they're plenty consumer-friendly. The market has niches for consumers with different demands. Laser cutting technology was not availabe in the 1950s. Back then you made do with relatively crude metal or plastic parts, assuming you could get the parts at all, or scratchbuilt. In the interim, we got better metal and plastic parts, that are still available for those who want them. Finely cut micro plywood detail parts are a product of modern manufacturing methods. If they don't sell, the market will sort things out. You don't like them. I get it. That doesn't mean the products at issue are of low quality or represent a poor value. They may just not be a match for your particular tastes and skills. We've all made purchasing decisions that amount to learning experiences.
jecorbett I don't object to difficult assembly which produces a significantly better end result. It is difficulty for the sake of being difficult which adds nothing to the quality of the final product. If you would re-read the OP you would see that my main complaint was about the kit having 20 chairs that require 4 tiny lightweight pieces to be assembled with very little mating service between them. Preiser offers a kit with over twice as many preassembled chairs and two more tables than what the Branchline kit offers. They will serve the same purpose for less than half the cost and less than 20% of the effort. I see nothing noble about doing something the most difficult way possible for the sake of doing it the most difficult way possible. That is not my idea of craftsmanship. That is the definition of inefficiency.
It might not have been their intent to make it as difficult as possible to assemble but that was the result. It's not as if everything in the Branchline kits are wood. The do have a few molded parts which appear to me to be some type of resin casting. I doubt the companies that offer these various kits are making all of their own parts. Some may not make any. FSM kits are a mixture of wood pieces and metal castings, plus paper signs and a few cardboard pieces as well. I doubt seriously George Selios is casting his own metal parts. I would bet he has contracted with one of the makers of the these metal castings to produced them for his kits.
You are right that purchasing these Branchline kits were a learning experience. I learned I won't be buying any more Branchline kits.
jecorbett,So you don't like the way Branchline makes chairs out of laser cut wood. How exactly should Branchline, a laser cut wood company, make them? They will not be making injected plastic pieces like Preiser. They don't make spun metal castings like BEST Trains who sells metal chairs at 62 cents each (8 for $4.95). How exactly should a laser cut wood kit company make chairs without using laser cut wood?
I think the most obvious solution here is for you to stop an activity that pushes you to rant publically. IOW, if you don't want to build little chairs then don't build them. See? It's easy. Now the people that want to build little chairs can still build them, and people like yourself that don't want to build little chairs don't have to. Your blood pressure will drop and everyone will get along.
RE: the gas pumps - did the gas pumps you slam as "O-scale" exist or not? If they actually did, even just once, then you owe someone an apology. It doesn't matter if they weren't common, they just had to have existed in order for the pumps to be a valid model.
BTW, do you actually think that a company will change their models because of a rant? Did you ever hear the expression, "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar?" I bet if you actually contacted Branchline and said, "I like your kits but could you make the chairs easier to assemble? I think it will improve sales.", you might have got somewhere. But by publically ranting against them, and now swearing off any more purchases from them, a company could just as easily think, "There's nothing wrong with my chairs, and I'm not changing them especially just to make a guy like that happy."
While I don't know Sellios personally, I wouldn't hesitate to think that his company does his own spin castings. Certainly other smaller companies do, but it's a big commitment to buy a spin caster, make the molds, buy and melt the metal, and then spin what you need when you need it. I've seen it done at Bar Mills when I visited their "factory" and it's a fascinating process. Branchline does not do spin castings so that's out, and I doubt resin chairs would even look like chairs if they tried it.
BTW, now that you've sworn off Branchline kits, might I also suggest you stay away from: American Model Builders, Bar Mills, BEST Trains, Blair Line, Campbell Scale Models, Central Valley, GC Laser, JL Innovative Design, B.T.S., RS Laser Kits, Minuteman Scale Models, Motrak, South River Modelworks, Sheepscot, Nick & Nora Designs, FSM, and every other craftsman kit maker.
Meanwhile, Woodland Scenics "Built-Ups" are available: http://woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/show/category/HOScaleBuiltNReady?tsort=default&perPage=1900&view=grid
No paint, no glue, no assembly, and no little chairs...perfect!
Paul3 jecorbett,So you don't like the way Branchline makes chairs out of laser cut wood. How exactly should Branchline, a laser cut wood company, make them?
jecorbett,So you don't like the way Branchline makes chairs out of laser cut wood. How exactly should Branchline, a laser cut wood company, make them?
Who said they had to make them. Their kits do include non-wood parts, such as those oversized gas pumps. Those weren't made of wood and required no assembly.
Paul3 They will not be making injected plastic pieces like Preiser. They don't make spun metal castings like BEST Trains who sells metal chairs at 62 cents each (8 for $4.95). How exactly should a laser cut wood kit company make chairs without using laser cut wood? I think the most obvious solution here is for you to stop an activity that pushes you to rant publically. IOW, if you don't want to build little chairs then don't build them. See? It's easy. Now the people that want to build little chairs can still build them, and people like yourself that don't want to build little chairs don't have to. Your blood pressure will drop and everyone will get along.
They will not be making injected plastic pieces like Preiser. They don't make spun metal castings like BEST Trains who sells metal chairs at 62 cents each (8 for $4.95). How exactly should a laser cut wood kit company make chairs without using laser cut wood?
If it upsets you to read rants, the most obvious solution is for you to refrain from reading threads that are clearly labeled RANT ALERT.
Paul3 RE: the gas pumps - did the gas pumps you slam as "O-scale" exist or not? If they actually did, even just once, then you owe someone an apology. It doesn't matter if they weren't common, they just had to have existed in order for the pumps to be a valid model. BTW, do you actually think that a company will change their models because of a rant? Did you ever hear the expression, "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar?"
BTW, do you actually think that a company will change their models because of a rant? Did you ever hear the expression, "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar?"
Did you ever hear the expression "The squeaky wheel gets the grease".
Yea, those Branchline Kits. They definitely have an inferior business model going. Not sure why anyone would take the time to build their kits. I was proud of my work till I read this rant.
Csmincemoyer,
Still be proud......nice job! There are craftsman and there are?
Take Care!
Frank
csmincmoyer:
Do I detect a little 'tongue in cheek' here? Nice model!
Paul3Meanwhile, Woodland Scenics "Built-Ups" are available: http://woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/show/category/HOScaleBuiltNReady?tsort=default&perPage=1900&view=grid No paint, no glue, no assembly, and no little chairs...perfect! Paul A. Cutler III
Someone is probably going to "rant" that Woodland Scenics didn't come into town and install it on the customers layout after purchase.
Since so many of you seem to be missing the point from the OP, let me state it one more time as simply as I can. It is not the concept of craftsman kits I object to. I understand going in that these aren't things that get thrown together in an evening. I also don't dispute that outstanding structures can be produced from them, which is the appeal. My problem is when there is an aspect of them which requires exhorbitant amounts of time for little or no benefit. I see no benefit from having to construct miniature chairs from individual parts when something just as good is available in one piece for a fraction of the cost. There seems to be an attitude among some that it is cheating to take advantage of a convenience item to produce something just as good in a fraction of the time. Doing something in a tedious manner for the purpose of producing something outstanding makes sense. Doing things by the most difficult means possible when there is a cheaper and faster way of achieving something just as good makes no sense to me. That is not my idea of craftsmanship. That is my idea of inefficiency.
One of the reasons this hobby is out of favor with younger people is because it does require so much time. When we continue to do things the way they were done in the 1960s because of some misguided idea that is the right way to do it, we are exacerbating that problem. When we take advantage of modern conveniences to produce end results as good or better than what was done in the past, we will make this hobby more attractive for all. If others want to continue to do everything the old fashioned way, that is their choice. My time is valuable to me and I will not patronize companies that require me to spend exorbitant amounts of my time when other companies offer products which allow me to achieve results just as good for a fraction of the time and money.
Hi all
I think the key word here is Craftsman, that word alone tells you it is not a shake the box kit and marking out, cutting are required and that the kit is often not that far removed from scratch building.
There are plenty of easy plastic, resin, laser cut and other kits out there for those like me who don't have the skills and or patience for craftsman kits.
Regardless of type of kit the result is only as good as the time and effort put into assembling the kit and simple mods like changing colours with paint just painting, mirror imiaging and chimney pot or window and door changes can make a world of difference to the percived finished structure.
I think it is very much a check what your buying before comitting to purchase, think make sure you want it and have what's needed to build in time and skills.
If every body else has that kit who cares make a simple change or add something to it then every one else doesn't have it because suddenly there is only one of them the one you built.
That's my thoughts that will be 50c please
regards John
jecorbettDid you ever hear the expression "The squeaky wheel gets the grease".
I have come to the conclusion that if we stop pulling the wagon we will no longer have to listen to the wheel squeak.
jecorbett Since so many of you seem to be missing the point from the OP, let me state it one more time as simply as I can. It is not the concept of craftsman kits I object to. I understand going in that these aren't things that get thrown together in an evening. I also don't dispute that outstanding structures can be produced from them, which is the appeal. My problem is when there is an aspect of them which requires exhorbitant amounts of time for little or no benefit. I see no benefit from having to construct miniature chairs from individual parts when something just as good is available in one piece for a fraction of the cost. There seems to be an attitude among some that it is cheating to take advantage of a convenience item to produce something just as good in a fraction of the time. Doing something in a tedious manner for the purpose of producing something outstanding makes sense. Doing things by the most difficult means possible when there is a cheaper and faster way of achieving something just as good makes no sense to me. That is not my idea of craftsmanship. That is my idea of inefficiency. One of the reasons this hobby is out of favor with younger people is because it does require so much time. When we continue to do things the way they were done in the 1960s because of some misguided idea that is the right way to do it, we are exacerbating that problem. When we take advantage of modern conveniences to produce end results as good or better than what was done in the past, we will make this hobby more attractive for all. If others want to continue to do everything the old fashioned way, that is their choice. My time is valuable to me and I will not patronize companies that require me to spend exorbitant amounts of my time when other companies offer products which allow me to achieve results just as good for a fraction of the time and money.
I have already said a good bit about this, but really, if the little wooden chairs bug you that much, buy some plastic molded ones and use them instead.
I add, change, delete, replace, and modifiy the parts that come with kits all the time.
And before you boohoo about the the fact that you "paid" for those hard to build chairs, just realize that you really did not not pay extra for them. Once the laser layout for that kit was going the chairs did not cost "extra", that's likely why they decided to do it that way - it held down the cost.
Molding their own, or buying them from a vender would have cost more - and you already think "craftsman" kits are too expensive.......
I don't care about why young people are not in this hobby, I'm not interested in making this hobby "easy". I restore old houses for a living - we have a saying in our business "if it was easy than everyone would do it".
As others have pointed out, if speed (or your valuable time) are most important, there is a whole new segment of products just for you - built ups............
I don't have as much time for this hobby as I would like - that does not however make me want to have someone do it for me - the fun is in the doing. Maybe, just maybe, this is not REALLY the hobby for you.........
PS - and just to be clear, I'm not above RTR or even built up structures if a nice one fit my needs - I use a wide mix of products of every skill and cost level - but I don't whine that everything should be "less expensive" or "easier" or both.......
The problem with craftman kits is simply that I am NOT a craftman, so I do not buy them.
jecorbett Since so many of you seem to be missing the point from the OP, ...
Since so many of you seem to be missing the point from the OP, ...
Actually, I understand your point - have from the beginning. I just disagree with it. And apparently so do many others.
Building a craftsman kit can be a challenge. But you can also substitute along the way. Don't like gluing on the battens yourself - sub in a milled board and batten siding from one of the scale lumber companies. Coupler box doesn't work with your couplers - use another. Don't like the chairs - buy someone elses. Don't like the colors the manufacturer used (or calls for) - use your own. And so forth.
As for young people. Anyone who will spend hours leveling up their WOW character isn't detered by the time this hobby takes. Remember this is a hobby. The doing is supposed to be fun. And really with all the RTR available you can do what's fun for you and buy what's not.
Enjoy
Paul
ATLANTIC CENTRAL jecorbett Since so many of you seem to be missing the point from the OP, let me state it one more time as simply as I can. It is not the concept of craftsman kits I object to. I understand going in that these aren't things that get thrown together in an evening. I also don't dispute that outstanding structures can be produced from them, which is the appeal. My problem is when there is an aspect of them which requires exhorbitant amounts of time for little or no benefit. I see no benefit from having to construct miniature chairs from individual parts when something just as good is available in one piece for a fraction of the cost. There seems to be an attitude among some that it is cheating to take advantage of a convenience item to produce something just as good in a fraction of the time. Doing something in a tedious manner for the purpose of producing something outstanding makes sense. Doing things by the most difficult means possible when there is a cheaper and faster way of achieving something just as good makes no sense to me. That is not my idea of craftsmanship. That is my idea of inefficiency. One of the reasons this hobby is out of favor with younger people is because it does require so much time. When we continue to do things the way they were done in the 1960s because of some misguided idea that is the right way to do it, we are exacerbating that problem. When we take advantage of modern conveniences to produce end results as good or better than what was done in the past, we will make this hobby more attractive for all. If others want to continue to do everything the old fashioned way, that is their choice. My time is valuable to me and I will not patronize companies that require me to spend exorbitant amounts of my time when other companies offer products which allow me to achieve results just as good for a fraction of the time and money. I have already said a good bit about this, but really, if the little wooden chairs bug you that much, buy some plastic molded ones and use them instead. I add, change, delete, replace, and modifiy the parts that come with kits all the time. And before you boohoo about the the fact that you "paid" for those hard to build chairs, just realize that you really did not not pay extra for them. Once the laser layout for that kit was going the chairs did not cost "extra", that's likely why they decided to do it that way - it held down the cost.
I did buy plastic chair from Preiser (for less than half the price) which means I largely wasted my money when I bought the Branchline kit. This is a stand alone detailing kit for their Dubois Store. The parts were made to fit in a specific arrangement within that store although they could be used in other kits. Most of the parts could easily have been fabricated from scratch material. I bought the kit mainly for the tables and chairs and it turn out to be largely a waste money. The Preiser kit contains enough tables and chairs to detail at least 3 structures for less than half the price and about a tenth of the effort. The Branchline kit was not a complete waste since I did use some of the parts, but I certainly didn't get my money's worth from it. If I had it to do over again, I never would have bought it.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Molding their own, or buying them from a vender would have cost more - and you already think "craftsman" kits are too expensive.......
I have a hard time believing that Preiser can offer a kit with over twice as many tables and chairs for less than half the price of the Branchline kit and that going that route would have made the Branchline kit significantly more expensive. Bottom line is the Branchline kit was simply a poor value.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I don't care about why young people are not in this hobby, I'm not interested in making this hobby "easy". I restore old houses for a living - we have a saying in our business "if it was easy than everyone would do it". As others have pointed out, if speed (or your valuable time) are most important, there is a whole new segment of products just for you - built ups............ I don't have as much time for this hobby as I would like - that does not however make me want to have someone do it for me - the fun is in the doing. Maybe, just maybe, this is not REALLY the hobby for you.........
It's not the hobby I have a problem with. It's companies that don't give me good value for my dollar. There are companies that do give me good value and they will get my business and companies like Branchline that sell me headaches will not.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL PS - and just to be clear, I'm not above RTR or even built up structures if a nice one fit my needs - I use a wide mix of products of every skill and cost level - but I don't whine that everything should be "less expensive" or "easier" or both.......
One of the purposes of a forum like this is for modelers to exchange ideas including their opinions regarding the quality of products offered. Maybe because of this thread someone else will decide that this particular kit is not for them. I've read people offer opinions about other companies that I don't have a problem with. I've lost count of how many negative comments I've read about MTH but I've bought a number of their products and I think they are outstanding. That doesn't mean I think these other people are whining. They are expressing their opinion of a product which is valueable feedback which can help others make informed decisions on what they choose to buy. If I'm buying something online where I won't be able to check it out hands-on I most certainly check customer reviews of that product. Usually with any product there will be both positive and negative comments but one can easily see which way the comments are weighted and that helps me to make an informed choice.
"good value for my dollar" - well for me that would rule out most anything MTH has made. I have one MTH product, a freight car, not one bit better than hundreds of others I paid much less for...........
Yes, we all "value" things differently.
Examples:
I would rather buy a $200 steam loco from Bachmann, add a little weight to the tender, tweek this, adjust that, than to buy a $500 loco from MTH that will only run at 2/3 of full speed on my NMRA standard DC control system............
And the $200 Berkshire from Bachmann has finer and more proto correct details, while the MTH version has heavy cast running boards three times as thick as they should be - it looks like a shrunk down piece of LIONEL, not a fine HO scale model......
But I suppose the talking conductor makes up for those short comings......
You and others may use the opinions on here to decide on products, I will be my own judge. I seldom agree with the "product opinions" on here............
But that may be because I have lots of experiance including selling these products over the counter at one time, and still being friends with a number of shop owners.....
A Branchline kit is what it is, if you don't see the value, there are lots of other choices.........
I don't see the value in tinny sound and DCC.......and from what I can tell, about half the modeling world agrees with me........
I do see the value in building a signal system and CTC, that puts me in a small group........
My biggest problem with craftsman kits is that I don't have enough space for all of them!
Right now I'm bidding on an old Timberline Models wooden bridge kit. Guess what, its just a pile of sticks. I'll be disappointed if I don't get it.
No offense to jecorbett. I fully understand his point of view. Mine is different.
jecorbett,Who said you had to buy the chairs? Going back to the first post, you said you bought the store ($108 MSRP) then purchased the separate interior detail set ($37.50 MSRP) that is properly listed as a kit: "HO Dubois Store Interior: Interior kit includes shelves, tables, chairs and counters for a retail store and restaurant."
http://www.branchline-trains.com/laserart-structures/commercial/commercial-ho.html
You didn't have to buy the interior kit to complete the structure. You paid extra to get a superdetailing kit, and then you're shocked to learn that you have to put it together. Why did you buy it? Did you think someone was going to build it for you?
I seriously checked the date to make sure this wasn't an April Fools joke.
Do you know how many HO structures ever get interiors? Very few, compared to the number of structures made every year. Most modelers are satisfied with the exterior walls of any structure. Not many take the time, effort, and money to actually install any interior in a stucture, but you forked out $37.50 for what are obviously laser cut wood parts from a laser cut wood company that clearly shows all 20 HO-scale wooden (not resin, not metal, not plastic) chairs on the website. Did you seriously think they'd be assembled for you? Does Branchline make any RTR structures? What led you to think this was not a kit?Squeaky wheels may get the grease, but wheels that don't work get replaced.Might I suggest building an assembly jig next time you feel you have to build 20 of anything? That would have been the most efficient way to build those chairs.
And who is saying that it's "cheating" to buy plastic chairs? Over and over again on this thread of yours, people are telling you to buy the plastic chairs if it makes you happy. You're the one ranting here, claiming that Branchline is cheating you.
And for the record, there were no laser cut chairs (or anything else) 50 years ago. In the "old days", any modeler that wanted chairs would have scratchbuilt them. Having the pieces already laser cut for you is a huge advancement in this hobby that you refuse to acknowledge. Did you over open an Ambroid kit? Or a Campbell kit from back in the day? Talk about a box of sticks. You might have gotten some die stamped wood sheets, but that was about it.Geared Steam,Next, we'll be hearing about how someone at an expensive restaurant ordered a big piece of juicy prime rib only to find that it arrived at their table without the waiter cutting the steak into bite-sized pieces first. Hey, after all, it's an expensive meal; it should come "ready to eat"...
maxman,Good point.