riogrande5761 jecorbett Most of the time the closure spring is installed. I buy the bulk packs of #148 and there will usually be a few in the package that have lost the spring. They include replacement springs so apparently KD realizes that to be the case. It's been quite a while since I bought #5s but it is my memory that they would occasionally need the spring replaced as well. If I were to guess, I'd say about 1 in 20 will have lost their closure spring. Every once in a while I need to re-install a closure spring. I've found what works well enough for me is to take an X-Acto #11 pointy blade and insert the tip into one end of the spring, then put the other end onto one of the posts, lastly put the end with the blade over the other post and pull the blade out. I'm not the most coordinated but so far it works pretty well for me; now and then I have to make a 2nd try and once in a blue moon I loose a spring but I always keep the spares I get from packages and haven't run out so far.
jecorbett Most of the time the closure spring is installed. I buy the bulk packs of #148 and there will usually be a few in the package that have lost the spring. They include replacement springs so apparently KD realizes that to be the case. It's been quite a while since I bought #5s but it is my memory that they would occasionally need the spring replaced as well. If I were to guess, I'd say about 1 in 20 will have lost their closure spring.
Most of the time the closure spring is installed. I buy the bulk packs of #148 and there will usually be a few in the package that have lost the spring. They include replacement springs so apparently KD realizes that to be the case. It's been quite a while since I bought #5s but it is my memory that they would occasionally need the spring replaced as well. If I were to guess, I'd say about 1 in 20 will have lost their closure spring.
Every once in a while I need to re-install a closure spring. I've found what works well enough for me is to take an X-Acto #11 pointy blade and insert the tip into one end of the spring, then put the other end onto one of the posts, lastly put the end with the blade over the other post and pull the blade out. I'm not the most coordinated but so far it works pretty well for me; now and then I have to make a 2nd try and once in a blue moon I loose a spring but I always keep the spares I get from packages and haven't run out so far.
I use a similar technique with a small jeweler's screwdriver. Works pretty well but still I get a lot of jumpers. I'm glad KD supplies plenty of extra springs. I've tried using a stand alone magifying glass as well but I find it distorts my depth perception and so hurts more than it helps.
When referring to the Intermountain coupler, are you talking about before they started equipping their rolling stock Kadee's some years back?
One of the reasons why Kadee are superior, and I think that's a nearly universal opinion amongst, that they use metal springs rather than plastic. Let me give an example of why plastic makes a poor material for springs. I have four 5-packs of Athearn Thrall hi-side coal gondola's which came with all plastic McHenry couplers. Those couplers have plastic centering springs and plastic closure springs. When running all 20 together, they randomly uncoupled at different points of the train during a session. I can see the down side now of plastic springs vs. metal - they can get fatigue and no longer maintain characteristics of a spring. The closure finger spring, in this case, could not keep the train coupled - a total deal breaker. Inability to center a coupler is also not good but may only be a bother when trying to couple cars, if it fails. I think the closure spring is thin on the older McHenry's and more prone to fatigue.
It is my understanding that Athearn discontinued those types of McHenries some time ago and now use metal springs in couplers equipped with Athearn rolling stock.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Right. The spring on a horn book is different from Intermountain's and Kadee's whisker springs. IM came out with plastic knuckle couplers with whiskers on either side of the shank as their contribution to the knuckle coupler wars that also gave us the McHenry, the split Accurail and Kato, and various others after Kadee's patents expired. I *think* Kadee's similar coupler came out awhile later, but I wasn't sure about the timing.
gunkhead Uh, considering that horn-hook couplers use whisker springs ..
Uh, considering that horn-hook couplers use whisker springs ..
Maybe it's just semantics but I have never seen a horn hook coupler with whisker springs - they all have a plastic loop finger that always forces them all the way to one side. The whisker's on Kadee's look like whiskers sticking out on either side to center them in the iddle.
The springs look to me like they are some sort of phosphor bronze or tempered brass alloy.
I try to offer solutions too. In the case of repairing the whisker springs I think my suggestion is valid - don't! New #148 couplers currently can be bought for less than $0.70 ea plus shipping.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/KADEE-140-50-PAIR-Ultra-Pack-NO-148-whisker-Bulk-Pack-YANKEEDABBLER-/351628962830?hash=item51deb82c0e:g:xSYAAOSwoydWlnJI
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I could have sworn the closure springs on the #5s I bought way back when were magnetic.. What the crap is Kadee making out of them that they aren't?
As for my suggestion for repairing a broken centering whisker, well, when I see someone mention an issue with something breaking I instinctively try to come up with a fix.
Interiors and people figures make such a difference. Especially the people.
gunkheadAs for finding dropped closure springs and the like, aquarium magnets are your friend. Little piece of metal like that can hide from your eyes and fingers, but not one of those babies. Add Quote to your Post
Hi gunkhead:
I'm not sure if we are talking about the same springs, but Kadee knuckle springs are not magnetic.
I also have to question the value of trying to repair a missing whisker spring. Seems like a recipe for failure to me just to save a buck, but each to his own.
Uh, considering that horn-hook couplers use whisker springs I somehow doubt Swindlermountain had anything to do with their invention. I think the idea of casting knuckle couplers with whisker springs for centering might pre-date the '90s depending on how old the Athearn blue-box kits I've seen with that style are (I even own a couple that came like that, and the boxes seem to be older blue boxes).
Getting or making a foam cradle is all well and good, but holding a car still is only going to do so much. If one has an issue with fat-fingering things when it comes to maneuvering small parts, something like needle-nose pliers or even bathroom tweezers would be the more relevant tool. One of those helping hand tools (which are also useful for soldering work) to hold the coupler in place would help, as would just putting something under the coupler to keep gravity making it fall out. Getting the truck out of the way also definitely helps and is in fact a recommended step in the installation procedure.
It doesn't surprise me that fitting Kadee #5s and their separate center springs into existing draft gear boxes sometimes runs into trouble. They were designed more to go with the boxes they come with, since when they were new most models had talgo couplers. And even if there was an existing box on the body or if you wanted to talgo mount them, Kadee probably deemed wholesale replacement of the existing equipment easier.
Regarding the repair/replacement of broken whisker springs, I think you could cut a strip of soda can aluminum, cement that to the end of a coupler after a little pre-filing, and bend it into shape.
As for finding dropped closure springs and the like, aquarium magnets are your friend. Little piece of metal like that can hide from your eyes and fingers, but not one of those babies.
dti406 "Quote RioGrande: The only KD's which I've found particularly tricky are the #3x series that have the wire centering spring which has to be added when assembling the KD into that draft gear box - yes, those are a real treat - but I've found I don't use those much at all" It's too bad those are the couplers that come with the PS 2003CF Covered Hoppers, a real pain to re-install what with the cut lever and other detail parts in the way. Rick
"Quote RioGrande:
The only KD's which I've found particularly tricky are the #3x series that have the wire centering spring which has to be added when assembling the KD into that draft gear box - yes, those are a real treat - but I've found I don't use those much at all"
It's too bad those are the couplers that come with the PS 2003CF Covered Hoppers, a real pain to re-install what with the cut lever and other detail parts in the way.
Rick
BTW, didn't Intermountain come up with the idea of whisker couplers back in the '90's, followed by Kadee's improved version? Not trying to derail things, just making sure I have the chronology correct.
riogrande5761I've wanted to get one of those but when I've seen the price tag, I always close my wallet in disgust. So expensive for a bloody hunk of foam! I see foam thrown out all the time so I'm going to make one.
I said the same thing for years and finally I realized that this piece of foam has saved me hours of time by holding one of my 'very expensive' engines for me while I do repairs/coupler replacement/ or other necessary tasks. I consider this a very necessary tool and we all know that good tools are worth the price that we have to pay sometimes. I plan to have my 'cheap block of foam' until I die or get too blind to use it. Heck, I just blew $15 on lottery tickets that went into the trash!
-Bob
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
hobo9941Nobody mentioned the "Fat Fingers" remedy. Remove the truck, and get more room to work.
I fully agree 100%.. Removing the trucks may take a minute or two longer but,it makes installation a breeze.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Nobody mentioned the "Fat Fingers" remedy. Remove the truck, and get more room to work.
Also, I find two wood toothpicks make replacing knuckle springs easy.
Through my own carelessness I broke a sping on a 148.I removed the other spring and several months later installed like a #5 with the centering spring in a BB 50' gon.. I didn't notice any operational issues even though it was a smidgen to high.
hon30critter riogrande5761: I'm not sure if you meant this, but I don't believe the #5 style bronze springs can be used to fix a broken spring on a #148. The whisker spring coupler shanks are thicker than the #5s so when you remove a #5 and the bronze spring the #148 will fit in the same coupler box without sagging. At least, that's my understanding. Dave
riogrande5761:
I'm not sure if you meant this, but I don't believe the #5 style bronze springs can be used to fix a broken spring on a #148. The whisker spring coupler shanks are thicker than the #5s so when you remove a #5 and the bronze spring the #148 will fit in the same coupler box without sagging. At least, that's my understanding.
I have noticed the shank end looks like a #5 but if it's thicker, maybe filing the shank a bit would work with the bronze spring - or at least it wouldn't sag - which is often a problem!
If whiskers break, you can fall back on the bronze spring, but I'd guess it's rare. Actually you are the first to mention it gglars.
I did pick up a bulk pack of semi-scale KD's but the non whisker type at $16 at that shop closing out all items for 50% off at the Timonium show. Should be fine in some cars and a good deal.
installation and spring replacement is all in the touch and tools. It really depends on the car.
A foam cradle is a handy tool any time your working on a car or loco.
At times, I use a small piece of scotch tape to hold the coupler and spring in the pocket. When the cover is snug, the tape will come off easily.
The trick to the spring on the knuckle is to use a pick like the Kadee spring pick. Hold the spring up between you thumb and finger. Install the pick near one end, two or three rings in. Use the pick to place the other end of the spring on the inner tab. Place your finger over that end of the spring. Use the pick to compress the spring to fit over the outside tab. The pull the pick out slightly in the direction of the outside tab. This works most of the time. I find, if you by a 40 coupler multi pack, four couplers will be missing the knuckle spring.
I still prefer the #5 type. The brass spring is a pain, but you have extras and can be replaced. I have found the whiskers can break and I do not see a method to replace them. The whiskers also do not fit some applications.
www.llxlocomotives.com
So many trains, so little time,
Gratz Henry! Welcome to the KD spring club!
I am now an expert. Last week it took me 3 days to install the knuckle spring, today I did 2 in 5 minutes. I use the pointy blade and the thread thru the spring saves lost springs, but it also angles the spring in directions that are not helpful. Good light is essential. I use one of those things with aligator clamp arms and a magnifying glass, but one of those binocular magnifiers that you wear like a visor and pulls down in front of your eyes gives you depth perception that the magnifying glass does not.
The flat area above the bent arm tends to be in your way if you are right handed, but I am not coordinated enough with my left to see it that helps. This is probably a piece of cake for a surgeon who operates under a microscope, like an opthalmologist or a neurosurgeon. Ben Carson to the white courtesy phone?
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Graham Line I'm still using a foam cradle that probably cost me $5 thirty years ago. So many modelers refuse to spend money on good tools, but have rooms full of unassembled kits. Think something is out of balance there?
I'm still using a foam cradle that probably cost me $5 thirty years ago. So many modelers refuse to spend money on good tools, but have rooms full of unassembled kits. Think something is out of balance there?
Oh, I've sold off most of my unbuilt kits and turned to the evil ways of RTR models! Not having an over priced piece of foam hasn't stopped me from building quite a few kits however. But I still had more than I had desire to build - it's just something I don't enjoy that much and in the olden days was a necessary evil; sorry if that doesn't make me a "real" modeler.
Model Railroading is Fun!
BRAKIE Jin,I thought the same to until I found them on sale at a train show for $5.00.. Once I used it I kicked myself in the fannie for waiting so long to buy one.
Jin,I thought the same to until I found them on sale at a train show for $5.00.. Once I used it I kicked myself in the fannie for waiting so long to buy one.
I'd pay $5 for one, but every time I've seen them they were in the mid-teens and something in me always said $15 bucks for a silly piece of foam! I've come across ideal pieces of foam at work frequently that ended up in the garbage - I really need to remember to grab one and take a cut a channel into one. If I come across a cradle for a decent price I'll buy - but just based on principle, I've got a mental block against paying that much for a hunk of foam.
Even at full MSRP they're worth the price-that's about the same price two fast food combos btw.
As far as the coupler knuckle spring I use a tooth pick or my KD spring pick--if I can find it.
Hah hah. Yes, #11 blade do it. In the past 5-6 years, my close up vision going the way of the middle ages has made that job now in need of optical correction! I now have dollar store 2 factor reading glasses scattered all over the house and two pair in the train room. I can't do track work or anything close up without them now. Fun fun!
I agree 100% on the plastic whisker or finger closure springs on the McHenrys. I have quite a few Athearn Thrall Hi-side coal gonola 5-packs produced by Athearn with those cursed things. I took 4 sets to a modular layout to run them (20 cars in all) and they would randomly uncouple at different points in the train during the session. Yep, those McHenry's with the plastic finger. Just in principle I should email Athearn to send me replacement with the metal closure spring which they later went to - for obvious reasons - but I know deep down that KD's are the real solution.
As for your packs without the knuckle spring installed, I have never gotten any like that - I wonder if a batch went out from the factory like that and you happened to get "lucky". I've only seen the odd on missing the spring, never packages where all were like that.
Yup, if I have to repalce a knuckle spring, using the tip of the #11 blade works great. It helps to have a magnifier if you can't readily see the little nubs on the shank and knuckle that the ends of the spring slip over. I used to think it was easier to slip say the knuckle end on first vs startign witht he shank side, but what I later realized is that if you look with a magnifier, there are manufacturing variances and on some the nub on the shank is bigger and some the nub on the knuckle is bigger - whichever is bigger is the end you shoudl slide on first, that gives more 'wiggle room' to get the remaining side set without the first one popping off.
Pain thought it may be, those little coil springs to close the knuckle are FAR superior to the plastic whisker used on some of the knock off brands. One thing I have noticed is that years ago when I bought bulk packs of Kadees, a good many of them did not have the knuckle spring installed. (15-20 years ago) One I've purchased more recently, both #5's and #148's, the majority have the spring installed and it's a rare one I pull out of my storage box that is missing the spring.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
farrellaa Am I missing something here or does everyone have a problem with using/purchasing a foam 'cradle'.
Am I missing something here or does everyone have a problem with using/purchasing a foam 'cradle'.
I've wanted to get one of those but when I've seen the price tag, I always close my wallet in disgust. So expensive for a bloody hunk of foam! I see foam thrown out all the time so I'm going to make one.
dangailerOne of the most useful tools I have found for working with couplers is a nice pair of fine tweezers.
Bingo! A pair of #3 (fine) or #5 (needle-nose) tweezers makes both coupler and coupler spring installation much easier. And fine, flat-nose, and locking tweezers are among my essential tools for any MRRing project. They're worth their weight in gold and worth the expense in getting a good pair from places like Techni-Tool.
With the #5 tweezers you can place the coupler spring over either of the two needle tips then slide it onto the spring "stem" under compression. The needle tip helps to keep the spring from inadvertantly shooting off into the ether zone:
And I totally agree with Bob's suggestion on the foam cradle. It supports the car and keeps it upright; freeing my hands to perform whatever task I need to - unencumbered.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Am I missing something here or does everyone have a problem with using/purchasing a foam 'cradle'. This one tool is a life saver when it comes to installing couplers (and most other rolling stock servicing procedures). Place the car/engine upside down in the foam and you now have two hands to install the coupers, which you will need. I am buying the #148 whisker couplers now but still have many #5's which I continue to install until they are all gone. Either way, with the car upside down, I can place the #5 bronze spring into the draft box and it stays there, then place the coupler over the pin and down into the spring and while holding it with one hand I can set the cover down and hold everything in place while taking the other hand (that was holding the coupler) to tighten the screw. I don't usually have any problems this way unless there is a clearance problem with the truck and in that case I remove the truck (actually I remove the truck most of the time so I have clear access to the coupler/box). With the #148 whisker coupler, the install is a lot easier, just eleminating the bronze spring step.
This is just my process and I find it not too much trouble; but you really need a foam cradle to act as the third hand.
Unless I missed it, nobody has mentioned the Kadee Coupler Assembly jig:
http://www.kadee.com/htmbord/page701.htm
My supply of #5s has mercifully run out, but when I was using them the assembly jig made things relatively quick and easy. Note that I said "relatively".