Not a light-hearted post, this one! From Rapido Trains Inc. Gentlemen, These guys - Big Dawg - have stolen our intellectual property by modifying our F40PH-2D shell and recasting it and selling it. We've made inquiries and the legal cost of going after Big Dawg is probably ten times their annual sales, so we're going to ignore them for now. However, if you buy these illegal goods, STOP CALLING US FOR HELP. We will not give you paint formulas. We will not sell you chassis. We will not send you detail parts. We will not help you complete your Big Dawg model that was ripped off from the Rapido model. You know, the Rapido model that took us years of hard work to develop and cost us hundreds of thousands of dollars. If you decide to buy the Big Dawg shell rather than wait for the Rapido rebuilt F40PH-2D currently in development, then you are ON YOUR OWN. We will NOT HELP YOU. Please feel free to pass this message on. -Jason __._,_.___ Rapido puts a lot of work into their high-quality locomotives, and I feel strongly about this. It's my understanding that the guy behind Big Dawg does the same with other manufacturers. Personally, I will not be buying any of Big Dawg's products. I suggest you do the same.
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Building the CPR Kootenay division in N scale, blog here: http://kootenaymodelrailway.wordpress.com/
Well this is interesting. I have no idea who Big Dawg originals is, so I guess no need to worry. But ya gotta laugh at ther name. I'm talking about the "orignals" part! LOL
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
Shame, even though they make nothing I need, I wanted to like them, because of the Pug (yeah, Big Dawg alright...well, they THINK they are. LOL. ANyone else with a Pug will know what I mean). They actually have a lot of shells and cabs for some specific variations that aren't otherwise available. It's just a retired patternmaker and his wife, it's not some major company. Very strange that they would copy the Rapido F40PH-2D to make their F40PH-3D.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Peruse the product offerings, and it's obvious every one of the shells is a copy of some other manufacturer's work. Shells from Athearn, Atlas, Kato and Rapido can be readily identified as the sources of pretty much all of them. They have a Facebook page full of photos of how the masters for their molds are kitbashed using parts of other commercial products, sometimes identifying the original by name. It's pretty blatant.
I haven't purchased any of these (and I won't), but have encountered discussions from customers who report the shells are difficult to adapt to existing drives due to the thickness of the resin castings. If you have the skill to turn one of these resin shells into a locomotive, you should be able to kitbash a better model using the actual original parts.
Rob Spangler
I have a pair of Jason's F-40PHs ordered through FDT. Last I heard they were still in the container and being readied for distribution, so I wonder how Big Doggie-do got his hands on a shell to make his patterns from and get them marketed so fast?
Did someone on the "inside" at a Chinese factory sneak one out? I hear bootleg Hollywood films get on to DVDs before the movie even hits the theaters!
When I'm paying retail for a model and that price includes all the R&D, tooling, licensing and related travel costs, that theft hurts us all through higher final prices.
Actually, looking at the Doggie's photos, those shells are somewhat crude and are going to need a lot of work to make them presentable.
Still, such a shame. Ed
I wondered how long it would take before somebody got good and mad at the dawg!
Big Dawg models are crude.
Now the queston comes up, how much must be changed to be a new product?
rrebell Now the queston comes up, how much must be changed to be a new product?
It depends. Sometimes nothing.
What!??
Yes, you can get brass castings made by using plastic parts as masters. Several folks around willing to do that. Many venders even approve of this
How is that legal vs when what's discussed here is way into the gray area?
The difference is that the part in question is sacrificed as part of the casting process. Sometimes still referred to as "lost wax casting" any "burnable" part can serve the same purpose, so good ol' styrene is often used. That's why when detail parts are available, you often have the choice of plastic or brass.
Manufacturers of parts like it, because they still sell the parts used and actually see this as additional revenue and encourage the practice.
Why do modeler's do it? Brass parts are usually more durable and add weight.
If Big Dawg arranged to buy the shells from Jason and burn one for each casting made, he might be selling brass loco shells, legit. I suspect that bridge has been burned already, even assuming Jason was so inclined (and he might well not be since he's selling complete RTR locos and not just detail parts.)
Copying multiples of someone else's shell is not legit.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Suing them isn't an option.
Writing them a letter, letting them know subjectively what they're taking from rapido, THEN ask them to stop is an option.
If they tell you nicely to "go scratch", then it seems you have another competitor and thus you should compete and offer their products better than they do.
The next thing I'd do is put a few "allegedly's" in your original post.
I hope things work out for both.
T e d
Edit: I just signed up for rapido news.
rrebellBig Dawg models are crude.
By far the best reason not to buy them.
Dave
davidmurray rrebell Big Dawg models are crude. By far the best reason not to buy them. Dave
rrebell Big Dawg models are crude.
I guess we differ on that respect. In my worldview, the biggest reason not to purchase from them is their apparent difficulty with understanding and applying ethical principles. I could get to like cheaper versions of someone else's hard work were it not for the theft.
Dave (Selector), I like your thinking.
Tom
I have 4 locomotives on my layout now that started with BD shells or cabs. The detail on them is lacking, to the point of there not being any... They fit the Atlas chassis that I put them on just fine, but they took significant effort to make look good. They, in no way, compare to the 2 Rapido locomotives that I own.
IMO, saying that these are copies is like trying to say that a child's hand drawn picture is a copy of a professional photograph: Sure, the basic shape and image may be there, but the difference is pretty obvious.
mlehmanThe difference is that the part in question is sacrificed as part of the casting process. Sometimes still referred to as "lost wax casting" any "burnable" part can serve the same purpose, so good ol' styrene is often used. That's why when detail parts are available, you often have the choice of plastic or brass. Manufacturers of parts like it, because they still sell the parts used and actually see this as additional revenue and encourage the practice.
Yeah,
Jason did all that hard work andspent all those hours to make the locomotive and Big Dawg comes along and copys a locomotive that hasn't even been released yet.
Ya got to admit that is a pretty neat trick.
chutton01Hmm, having watched too many "How It's Made" episodes recently; if the brass parts are cleaned up & polished such that they are near exact copies of the styrene originals, then those brass parts can in turn be used to make reusable molds, which in their turn can be used to churn out the wax patterns for the lost wax process, not to mention that, even sticking with casting of parts, there are plenty of different ways to mold those parts non-destructively (or even one-shot destruction - you lose one set of styrene parts, but you can make 100s of duplicates from that one set).
That's true, but some folks act ethically and some don't. The per part cost of doing this is sufficient that people don't do this just to sell brass parts, so at the retail level there isn't any financial incentive. Obviously, if you started bootlegging parts this way, you're in the same position as the Dawg.
If you keep it honest, you're not. Those offering such services want to stay legal because that's how they earn their living. Sometimes, they may even be the same people who offer the plastic and brass parts to begin with.
Heck, those look even cruder than tyco and life like. Looks like a toy, oogly.
-Peter. Mantua collector, 3D printing enthusiast, Korail modeler.
I have a feeling that what was done is legal and Rapido is upset because he made up a unit that they have on the ship and that may cut into sales. The stuff I have seen from Rapido is top noch, can"ed say that about Top Dawg though.
Based on discussion with fellows involved in several mfg venture over the years, this isn't a new problem -- and it's never been legal to use the work of others without their explicit permission. It used to be more of an issue when standards of modeling were lower. Now there seems to be little of this. The descriptions of the crude nature of the molds means few are interested. Model RRing is also an industry largely without deep pockets like some, so this sort of thing gets tolerated more than it should. When people realize the low quality they get...I suspect few come back for more. Any comparison to Rapido would show the quality is seriously lacking.`
gmpullman I have a pair of Jason's F-40PHs ordered through FDT. Last I heard they were still in the container and being readied for distribution, so I wonder how Big Doggie-do got his hands on a shell to make his patterns from and get them marketed so fast? Did someone on the "inside" at a Chinese factory sneak one out? I hear bootleg Hollywood films get on to DVDs before the movie even hits the theaters!
-Tim
Big Dawg has a rebuttal and its worth reading:
https://www.facebook.com/Big-Dawg-Originals-824079360978438/?fref=photo
Jim
I'm not much convinced about a model not exceeding 85% of the original form being a legit practice. If I showed up at work and did 16% of what's expected of me, I doubt I'd get a full paycheck...
And how does one go about measuring what 16% new work is?
And if the new work that might be identified as part of the 16% is cribbed from yet another party's efforts, does that count?
I guess one could copy a CD or DVD, change a song or two or tack on a different ending from another movie that amounts to the required 16% difference and sell it as your own?
Somehow, if you need a lawyer to run interference for your business practices, something is fishy enough that it's not right or ethical, even if somehow borderline legal. Payday loan sharks fall into the same category.
For those not reading Big Dawgs response...it says that US patent laws allow a company to copy 84% of anothers work and change the remaining 16%. Apparently, BD sanded off some details and added a few more that the Rapido product didn't have. A few thoughts that both support and don't support BDs position.
1. How can you measure what 16% of the original is? By number of details, or by significance? if the latter, how do you measure that? It would seem that BD would have some defending to do if challenged.
2. I'm not sure that making a model of a prototype is necessarily worthy of a patent in the first place. I think of a patent as something like an invention. Making a 1:87 copy of the real thing in an of itself doesn't seem like a patent-able thing to begin with.
(BTW, how many song melodies are really original anymore...not many..they are all just slightly changed from somehting else. And "patent" laws apparently allow that in order to facilitate business and variety of product)
3. Nobody would bother to copy 84% of an Athearn Blue Box model. Perhaps patent laws to do not align well with the business strategy of making a model that precisely mirrors one specific locomotive. Relying upon making and selling a model such as that runs the risk of somebody producing a cheap knockoff, for which enough buyers are satisfied with getting 84% of an exact copy of the prototype. Irv Athearn sold huge volumes to people who were satisfied with less.
- Douglas
Sad to hear about this story.
Model Railroading is a fun hobby. Who can have fun with stolen theft.
I would suggest model train manufacturers pool their resources to sue people who do stuff like this.
GARRY
HEARTLAND DIVISION, CB&Q RR
EVERYWHERE LOST; WE HUSTLE OUR CABOOSE FOR YOU
Songs and movies are a whole different legal thing than a product of this type. I have seen others compare this to Paige and his illegal copying that led to jail for him, he just pure copyied whole kits and other parts from the originals, not the same at all. It has been many moons since I did legal stuff but the Dawg has it seems. Sorry guys but buisness is tough and is filled with legal stuff that make taxes seem simple! You need to know the laws that apply to your buisness and by Rapido saying things like they did, in the way they did, they open themselves up to litigation.
rrebellSorry guys but buisness is tough and is filled with legal stuff that make taxes seem simple! You need to know the laws that apply to your buisness and by Rapido saying things like they did, in the way they did, they open themselves up to litigation.
I'd say that copying 84% of someone else's efforts is far more of an invitation to litigation.
I suppose if I catch a student cribbing only 84% of an essay purchased off the internet that's not cheating? No, actually it is and at far less than 84%
I'm also not sure that patent law applies here or that it's legally different than Canadian law. There is that NAFTA thing, too, although I'm no lawyer...
That might be the big legal surprise for the Dawg. He also seems uncertain, since for some reason he's relying on the fact that someone else made the copy and gave him permission to copy his copy.
Maybe a name change to Big Dawg 84% Unoriginals would solve the misperceptions the Dawg feels are flowing?
Heartland Division CB&Q Sad to hear about this story. Model Railroading is a fun hobby. Who can have fun with stolen theft. I would suggest model train manufacturers pool their resources to sue people who do stuff like this.
I guess it comes down to whether or not the changes BD made make their product legally permissable. If they are, BD has a point when it claims that Rapido is being slanderous by using the term "theft".
You, me, and everbody is entitled to their opinion. I think both sides make some points.
I suspect that what BD did is legal. I'm reading Rapido's original message as really telling those consumers who buy the knockoff to not bother them with phone calls asking for help. I don't blame them.
I read Big Dawg's rebuttal and now I am confused. I am not sure Rapdio has a "patent" on its F40 model. I do believe they would have intellectual property rights more akin to copyright. And I am unaware of this "84%/15%" test that Big Dawg mentions. The tests in copyright are more like substantial similarity but it is not tested by percentages but by overall notions. Copying one chapter of a huge book is still a copyright violation.
Some publishers deliberately introduce typographical errors into their stuff, just as some map makers deliberately introduce modest and harmless errors or fabrications in their maps, as a trap for copy artists. It would be the ultimate irony if some of our best manufacturers had to start introducing errors in their models just so they could prove copying.
Without knowing just what that mysterious "modeler in Canada" provided to him it is hard to know just what is going on here. But if that modeler in Canada made a copy of Rapido's work, again presumably protected in some manner by something akin to copyright rather than patent, then it is no defense for Big Dawg that he himself did not do the copying. If that modeler in Canada laboriously scratchbuilt a perfect F40 model and just gave it to Big Dawg then he is a very generous person indeed, eh?
Years ago the guy who owns MicroMark had an article in MR showing how he made a casting and copied an old Lionel girder bridge. He was not offering copies to others, it was for himself. But he certainly showed how the technology is there to make such exact and perfect duplicates.
Dave Nelson
Actually, if you read Dawg's rebuttul you will see that he didd not do the design work it was done by a Canadian modeler.
I find it rather interesting that Rapido is the only company in the world capable of doing a Canadian F-40 so there fore anyone else doing one is ripping them off.